SSJ2 multiplier discussion

>Yes, after a Zenkai.

But that would mean he can heal himself on the spot, which not any saiyan could do. Even piccolo drew from a set finite ki to do that. So if he could regenerate his body, and heal himself, then simply standing around should just recover his stamina, like any normal person could.

If I run for a mile and run out of stamina, I can just stand there and recover, which cell did. He let the jrs fight while gohan just stood there. Plenty of time to recover, even if he did dump some ki into that.

>the only assumption I have to make is that Cell’s Zenkai was big enough to make up for the power he lost from regenerating.

Vegeta got a zenkai through magic healing, not his recovery. he needed dende to heal him, or a healing tank. Cell recovered on his own. thats the difference. Cell should have run out of ki to regenerate if he lost stamina just recovering his top half, and he was in worse shape from a beat down, and was in an inferior form.

>If you read the information provided by Herms, Shueisha was never consistent with the power-up from fusion in their various guidebooks. Herms said In 2009, the manga Super Exciting Guide described the power-up from the Potara as so incredible it’s like multiplying the two characters’ power levels together. The caption even helpfully reads “Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto”.

This was retconned, and like I said before, I didn't say that all the information in the guide books was canon or entirely correct. Though a great deal of it is.  And while it does seem low for ssj2, its not impossible. It could very well have been bigger, but thats not to say it needs to be.

>Either way, “tens of times” doesn’t mean exactly ten times.

so is vegetto only like 2x stronger than ssj3 goku? if ssj3 goku is 5000x gokus base form, and vegettos ssj form is only 2000x, 3000x or even 5000x, based on the exact "tens" its still a low number for the multiplier. is he only 2x as strong as ssj3 goku then? at 100x goku x2 x50, he's only 10,000x gokus power, so ssj3 goku is only half as strong as ssj vegetto. 

unless I mistyped on the calculator. thats not a huge jump at all, if we assume its just "2x". But thats a gross exaggeration of the argument. 2x can be huge, provided the original number is already quite large. Old kai even said the potara wasn't the reason ssj vegetto was so powerful, it was the 2 beings together.

>but you can’t do the same with SSJ2

Eh, I suppose I could, but that would be based on ohans base form. he surpassed both goku and vegeta as a ssj, even though vegeta had a assj form, which had a higher multiplier, but his base from was too low to make anything of it, plus it had stamina issues.

>This point doesn’t support your argument

Thats ok. It was my head canon after all. Its your head canon its more than that. I don't have a problem with your opinion being a 10x on the matter.

>If anything, this would be evidence that he probably doesn’t consider SSJ2 2x SSJ since he made no attempt to imply that in the manga.

its not implied to be well anything in the manga. The rest is just head canon. on the ssj2, the assj and the ussj. So, while my interpretations of assj were basedoff of freezas bulky form, this isn't a cemented stance that means it must be right. 

It was a guess, on my part, based on the low advantage requirement from earlier fights. When vegeta went into the HTC, he knew he lost to 18, but it wasn't one sided at first. he lost due to stamina drain, and fatigue, with her power being a bit higher. so if he was trying to beat the androids, having a 30% increase would certainly help, but the 10x gravity and the room being so horrid, made for a good training area on top of the 1 year to 1 day ratio. So his base form could increase by quite a bit, while adding another power up to his arsenal. And while assj training took up most of his time in the HTC, he did power up over all too as a ssj. just not as much as goku, but he did power up from the experience.

>This is just another example of the extra effort required to believe the 2x multiplier. You have to assume ASSJ and USSJ were less than doubled their power which goes against the implication that Vegeta and Trunks assumed these forms were powerful enough to be considered the next level of SSJ.

The issue of contention I have here is that, by stacking on an additional 15-20x power, is that he was trying to beat the androids, not knowing how strong cell was going to be. he was close to 18's power, so he didn't need to power up that much, and its vegeta doing the guestimating, of course he over estimated his own power. He thought ssj was invincible, and his ssj being greater because of his royal blood line. He was soon found out to be wrong on the ssj and the assj form. Trunks also wrongly assumed ussj was going to be his ace in the hole. I suppose if he were to go ussj and just shoot 1 big ki attack he could do some damage, but cell would probably regenerate, even despite this.

Speaking of the assj and ussj forms, they were dismissed by cell as being a common power up. Or that they were an easy form to attain. So while this could be cell just mocking the z fighters, I'd like to think this was toriyamas way of addressing the model of the assj and ussj power up in general.

We've seen fighters like freeza who had a bulk up from and stacked 30% power on top of his power he already had. at 85 million he bulked up to gain 35 million. and while this might not seem impressive, as it was a drop in the bucket for freezas over all power, it did give freeza abit of an edge in their fight, but it was still not enough to really propel him to victory in the manga, and the anime should be ignored, as it wasn't all that close in the manga with ssj goku getting the most offense in.

so lets break down what a 30% increase using vegeta as a model. lets assume he had a base form of about 10 million. he'd have a power level of...

500,000,000



now stack 30% of that.

thats 150 million by coincidence.

that'd be 650 million.

I don't know how strong the androids were, but I'd say ssj vegeta was around their power or at least 18's, but lost due to stamina issues.

I'll re read the manga, and get a fresh take on the powergap. I'm thinking its less than a 2x gap.

17 suggests vegeta is "not bad"







so far ssj vegeta impressed 17, and was actually holding back.





then 18 uses her full power or close to it any way.



I suppose we could take that as sarcasm on 17's part. I think she could, if she used hit and run tactics. and using her stamina to fire away until they're all dead.







so it seems 18 and vegeta were on par with each other. piccolo asserts its a matter of stamina, and ssj vegeta is dropping ki while 18 stays fresh.

So I'd say a vegeta who hypothetically had a 30% advantage with a assj form could probably punch through her, blow her up with the same reletive ease he did with dodoria.



after vegeta swats away dodoria "without breaking a sweat" he seems reletively un fazed by the attack he just let loose to kill him. He would have had like a 15-20% advantage over him, so a 30% advantage over 18 would seemingly yield similar results.

Or it would seem that way. the android durability could make it a bit harder, but I'd say given the evidence, assj vegeta in this scenario could win.

So while assj is never used post cell, that doesn't mean its entirely without use. I could see assj vegeta beating 18 even without the HTC power up to base through training, even going by the most conservative estimates.

So while this doesn't prove ssj2 is a 2x increase, it proves that it's not an impossible power up either.

so ssj2 is sort of like schroedingers cat, or schroedingers power up. its both a 2x power up and 10x until proven false, which it probably never will.

I think the real reason ssj2 gohan is strong is that his base form was so much bigger. It has to be less than fp freeza on namek, so saying its 100 million wouldn't be much of a stretch.

50x that would be 5 billion.

If cells max power were say 6 billion, that would still fall in line with the 20% advantage I was suggesting. doubling gohans power to 10 billion wouldn't just be a 60% advantage, it'd put several billions of power between them.

I had suggested earlier that it might not even be just a mere issue of trivial percentage, but just the raw number. a mere 1000 points made vegeta untouchable to zarbon, imagine if the difference were a billion. 

Just the raw numerical difference setting aside percents could be what makes the difference. and it falls in line with the math used in the series with percents, even if it is coincidental. Though we don't know gohans base form, this would make a 2x increase possible. 

Though if it were more than that, like a 10x increase, I wouldn't mind it either.

>When given an example of Roshi using a similar form and growing a few times stronger,

A few times stronger? How do we know that? and why is his buff up form better than freezas?

>UI Goku and Jiren were said to be causing the entire World of Void to shake but that didn’t happen when the Gods of Destruction were having a battle royale implying Jiren and Goku were causing more destruction than them.


I would chalk that up to UI being that OP, and was above a hakaishin. The world of void was not a place that could be destroyed, or they wanted UI goku to look better, and having a hakaishin battle royal do anything would take away from it, even though a light scuffle of name calling and play taps between 2 hakaishin were going to destroy the 4 galacies, I men the universe in the base ball episode.

>but that only reflected SOME battles and

Some?

1-nappa vs piccolo
2-vegeta vs cui
3-vegeta vs dodoria
4-vegeta vs zarbon round 1
5-vegeta vs zarbon round 2
6-vegeta vs recoome
7-goku vs ginyu
8-goku vs vegeta kaioken x3
9-buutenks vs gohan


and probably others. Thats 7 off the top of my head where a small advantage made the winner obvious.

ssj goku vs freeza in the manga goku seemingly toyed with freeza, and took his hits with little effect on him. Most other fights had a bigger margin of power, but a 2x advantage made it almost unstoppable for the other fighter.

10-goku vs nappa
11-vegeta vs freza form 2
12-piccolo vs freeza form 3

maybe some others, but thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

So that seems to be all the fights that had recorded data for the power levels in the manga. a 25% advantage made most fights 1 sided, and a 2x advantage was more than enough to terrify opponents. Now, unless the fighter said "he's 10x as strong as x fighter" we have no data to confirm nor deny a power advantage over someone else. it falls to speculation at that point. 

assj could be 2x, 3x, or 100x, and we can't confirm it or deny it. it could be a 50% increase for all we know. 30% was my guess based on freezas bulk up from and cells assertion that it was a "common" power up. Though perhaps he is exaggerating to some degree.

So yes, I selected battles with recorded data on the power levels and made an assertion based on the numbers. thats not "cherry picking" its objective numbers used in canon for most, and the rest were things like buu absoring some one of his power to gain an advantage over gohan.

Any other fights seems like cherry picking due to not addressing the point in contention. I had seen an argument that radditz was 4x, then nappa was 3x that, and vegeta was 5x that and so on, but the actual battle data recorded was that with the actual scaling recorded, that each fight had a warrior that one sidedly dominated with a 25% advantage or less at times. So while the fighters grew in power, the advantage was still rather close. nappa for his 3x advantage over radditz, dominated piccolo with a 12% advantage. the fighters grew in power, but the advantage remained close each time. So there is a pattern over time to these one sided fights.

Radditz, despite losing lost to 3 guys, one was gohan with a 1300 atk power. that was around his own, and it was a sneak attack that crippled him. the other 2 were being toyed with, until they busted out ki attacks like the SBC, and the kamehameha. it was radditz own hubris that lost that battle that day, had he just finished them off right away, he would have won.

>Toriyama could also have huge power-ups in the final battle

huge power ups, but small advantages.

>I know you understand what we’re trying to convey here which is why I felt you were intentionally avoiding the main point.

And i'm not. Because despite the huge power ups, the advantage remained tiny. and those small advantages produced some one sided fights.

>The solar system is big so if only the Earth is in danger from his attack then the most straightforward assumption is that his attack isn’t powerful enough to cover all that empty space and affect other planets.

Like what I guess what I'm trying to say is that space doesn't seem to effect the ki attack itself, because roshis ki attack entered space and blew up a moon. and cell doesn't have to blow up the planets, though he probably could, he just needs to disrupt the sun. 

>What you’re suggesting would be another example of a statement that can’t be taken at face value and needs to have some other more complex interpretation for it to work with the 2x multiplier.

Oh no. I think spc could blow up the sun. and with cells attack, he wasn't fully powered up, he mentioned the earth being destroyed, as well as the solar system. I think the earth isn't much of a hyperbole, but I see no reason cell couldn't blow up the sun before. he'd have to work for it, but spc could casually do it, such as how beerus could easily do it. I don't know why they mentioned that in dbs, seeing as the main villain 2 sagas prior could probably do it. Unless they nerfed cell too.

>Toriyama isn’t a scientist so they’re probably not going to bother with exact numbers

well then it could really be anything, seeing as ki isn't tied down to reality. shouting loud enough can destroy barriers of reality in dbz, and we don't know how much real life energy is required to do "that"

The "ki" is what makes this a pointless debate on planet and sun busting because its a super power that defies real life destruction and force. While it is loosely based on real life martial arts, its features are exaggerated greatly, and you are correct, toriyama isn't a scientist, so he probably didn't think of several factors when introducing moon busting. That feat should have destroyed the earth by virtue of lunar tides, and so on, but it was like "lol. moons gone"

>Toriyama seems to know that since he didn’t decide to introduce a character threatening the solar system until a few sagas after the first character to threaten the Earth.

I mean thats a good assumption, but we can't be too sure, it probably sounded cool at the time. I mean, considerign its not scientifically accurate that the earth wasn't ruined by the lack of a moon, can we really assume anything about how much ki is required to wreck a star? Maybe cell would have to be SPC to wreck the sun, provided he charged his kamehameha enough to do it.

Then theres the argument to be made, gohans ssj form was half way there, and because we don't know what his power was in relation to cells, it could have been anything provided the plot forgot to check for exact scientific force to wreck the thing they were trying to destroy even in theory.

I guess ki follows its own rules. I've seen some ki attacks plow through a building, but another just blew up on the spot. Though this was just the anime as well as gt. Ki is just odd some times.

as to blowing up a sun, keep in mind, that in dbz you don't need to "one shot" the planet, just destabilize it so it blows up in "5 minutes".

To blow up the sun, you wouldn't need to blow it up completely, just start a chain reaction so it destroys itself from destroying its "core" or whatever the story would consider a viable means to destroy it.

freeza in his 1st form used a death ball to blow up vegeta, and did so with ease, 4th form freeza brute forced his way to the core, but failed to blow it up right away, but it still blew up.

Notice how cell states he "gathered enough ki to blow up the solar system" yet it might have not done the trick any way due to being a brute force style ki attack. freeza tried the same thing on namek, but begrudgingly acknowledged he didn't use enough force to do it, not right away any way.

I could see spc starting a chain reaction that blows up the sun, due to ki's fictional properties, but not 1 shotting it outright. I'm kind of annoyed kid buu didn't blow up the sun in retrospect, only blowing up the earth.

and aside from beerus, we never see anyone blow up a star. Thats not to say it couldn't be done, but its never shown unfortunately.