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Post by supergojita3 on Feb 11, 2021 3:22:29 GMT
WE don't know the kaioken level uubs max is. or videls for that matter. they use vague figures like "max kaioken" or "kaioken next level" and gokus mastery of kaioken allowed him to surpass his limits to the point x3 no longer made him break down. x20 just simply exhausted him by the freeza saga. in any case, fat buu is probably a high tier ssj2 level and not quite ssj3 level. buu saga goku is probably the weakest ssj3 level guy and toyed with fat buu, and we don't really know fat buus true power. I could see uub being a fpssj level and getting to ssj2 level through kaioken and only having a good mastery of up to level 10 before showing fatigue, and his inability to out muscle buu is simply due to hax regeneration. According to Salagir logic, the strongest SSJ2 can not beat SSJ3, the lower level will never be able to tangle with the higher level for so long, so Fat Buu and SSJ3 Goku are within the same level. Even without knowing how much of a gap they have. But not so bad as a whole level of difference. That is, SSJ2 how to train, how to accumulate combat experience, but his room for improvement will have a ceiling, which will lead to SSJ2 in a one-on-one situation will lose to the weakest SSJ3, no matter what. >the strongest SSJ2 can not beat SSJ3, > so Fat Buu and SSJ3 Goku are within the same level. fat buu was shown to be weaker than ssj3 goku and never did any damage to goku. so a strong ssj2 level is still possible. goku wasn't even trying. I wouldn't put them in the same tier in that case. mangahasu.se/dragon-ball/chapter-466-v5-c449173.htmlthis chapter shows vegeta as a ssj2 taking the brunt of buus strongest attack he has before he copies other techniques. vegeta is only damaged and not killed. mangahasu.se/dragon-ball/chapter-475-v6-c449182.htmlthis chapter shows a sucker punch to goku. no damage. mangahasu.se/dragon-ball/chapter-476-v5-c449183.htmlthis chapter shows buu firing a kamehameha and it did nothing to him. I honestly think fat buu is a weak ssj2 and powered up to a strong ssj2 over time. and then he powered up to an unknown level before splitting. I'd say super buu was greater than anything fat buu himself could get without training like in dbs. >That is, SSJ2 how to train, how to accumulate combat experience, but his room for improvement will have a ceiling, which will lead to SSJ2 in a one-on-one situation will lose to the weakest SSJ3, no matter what. I think the novel put vegeta u18 and his ssj2 at about the same level or almost as u13 ssj3 vegeta. So maybe there is some degree of embellishment on salagirs part. I'd have to re-read that part and if its the same in english as french
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Post by 1989Bergling on Feb 11, 2021 4:38:35 GMT
According to Salagir logic, the strongest SSJ2 can not beat SSJ3, the lower level will never be able to tangle with the higher level for so long, so Fat Buu and SSJ3 Goku are within the same level. Even without knowing how much of a gap they have. But not so bad as a whole level of difference. That is, SSJ2 how to train, how to accumulate combat experience, but his room for improvement will have a ceiling, which will lead to SSJ2 in a one-on-one situation will lose to the weakest SSJ3, no matter what. >the strongest SSJ2 can not beat SSJ3, > so Fat Buu and SSJ3 Goku are within the same level. fat buu was shown to be weaker than ssj3 goku and never did any damage to goku. so a strong ssj2 level is still possible. goku wasn't even trying. I wouldn't put them in the same tier in that case. mangahasu.se/dragon-ball/chapter-466-v5-c449173.htmlthis chapter shows vegeta as a ssj2 taking the brunt of buus strongest attack he has before he copies other techniques. vegeta is only damaged and not killed. mangahasu.se/dragon-ball/chapter-475-v6-c449182.htmlthis chapter shows a sucker punch to goku. no damage. mangahasu.se/dragon-ball/chapter-476-v5-c449183.htmlthis chapter shows buu firing a kamehameha and it did nothing to him. I honestly think fat buu is a weak ssj2 and powered up to a strong ssj2 over time. and then he powered up to an unknown level before splitting. I'd say super buu was greater than anything fat buu himself could get without training like in dbs. >That is, SSJ2 how to train, how to accumulate combat experience, but his room for improvement will have a ceiling, which will lead to SSJ2 in a one-on-one situation will lose to the weakest SSJ3, no matter what. I think the novel put vegeta u18 and his ssj2 at about the same level or almost as u13 ssj3 vegeta. So maybe there is some degree of embellishment on salagirs part. I'd have to re-read that part and if its the same in english as french Goku also said a sentence: "My full force of a blow should be able to completely destroy him" can see that he himself is not at all sure if he can completely destroy the Fat Buu. > I think the novel put vegeta u18 and his ssj2 at about the same level or almost as u13 ssj3 vegeta. So maybe there is some degree of embellishment on salagirs part. I'd have to re-read that part and if its the same in english as french This already belongs to Vegeta training over the years, do not forget that he despises SSJ3 this form, he just play stronger energy through SSJ2, as if Gohan can play through the normal form can be beyond the power of SSJ3 You can go to the 3 chapter of the novel, Vegeta said in front of the crowd that he is pursuing Gohan kind of low consumption and durable and strong level.
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Post by supergojita3 on Feb 11, 2021 5:29:07 GMT
>the strongest SSJ2 can not beat SSJ3, > so Fat Buu and SSJ3 Goku are within the same level. fat buu was shown to be weaker than ssj3 goku and never did any damage to goku. so a strong ssj2 level is still possible. goku wasn't even trying. I wouldn't put them in the same tier in that case. mangahasu.se/dragon-ball/chapter-466-v5-c449173.htmlthis chapter shows vegeta as a ssj2 taking the brunt of buus strongest attack he has before he copies other techniques. vegeta is only damaged and not killed. mangahasu.se/dragon-ball/chapter-475-v6-c449182.htmlthis chapter shows a sucker punch to goku. no damage. mangahasu.se/dragon-ball/chapter-476-v5-c449183.htmlthis chapter shows buu firing a kamehameha and it did nothing to him. I honestly think fat buu is a weak ssj2 and powered up to a strong ssj2 over time. and then he powered up to an unknown level before splitting. I'd say super buu was greater than anything fat buu himself could get without training like in dbs. >That is, SSJ2 how to train, how to accumulate combat experience, but his room for improvement will have a ceiling, which will lead to SSJ2 in a one-on-one situation will lose to the weakest SSJ3, no matter what. I think the novel put vegeta u18 and his ssj2 at about the same level or almost as u13 ssj3 vegeta. So maybe there is some degree of embellishment on salagirs part. I'd have to re-read that part and if its the same in english as french Goku also said a sentence: "My full force of a blow should be able to completely destroy him" can see that he himself is not at all sure if he can completely destroy the Fat Buu. > I think the novel put vegeta u18 and his ssj2 at about the same level or almost as u13 ssj3 vegeta. So maybe there is some degree of embellishment on salagirs part. I'd have to re-read that part and if its the same in english as french This already belongs to Vegeta training over the years, do not forget that he despises SSJ3 this form, he just play stronger energy through SSJ2, as if Gohan can play through the normal form can be beyond the power of SSJ3 You can go to the 3 chapter of the novel, Vegeta said in front of the crowd that he is pursuing Gohan kind of low consumption and durable and strong level. >Goku also said a sentence: "My full force of a blow should be able to completely destroy him" can see that he himself is not at all sure if he can completely destroy the Fat Buu. when? we also see him say he could have killed the fat buu earlier but wanted the kids to do it. he only had trouble with the other buus, not the fat one. >This already belongs to Vegeta training over the years, then that contradicts salagirs stance on "any ssj3 being better than any ssj2" in terms of brute strength. The obvious exceptions being fusions and what not. >You can go to the 3 chapter of the novel, Vegeta said in front of the crowd that he is pursuing Gohan kind of low consumption and durable and strong level. He can pursue magic if thats the case. gohans power came from magic and not training.
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Post by 1989Bergling on Feb 11, 2021 5:47:08 GMT
Goku also said a sentence: "My full force of a blow should be able to completely destroy him" can see that he himself is not at all sure if he can completely destroy the Fat Buu. > I think the novel put vegeta u18 and his ssj2 at about the same level or almost as u13 ssj3 vegeta. So maybe there is some degree of embellishment on salagirs part. I'd have to re-read that part and if its the same in english as french This already belongs to Vegeta training over the years, do not forget that he despises SSJ3 this form, he just play stronger energy through SSJ2, as if Gohan can play through the normal form can be beyond the power of SSJ3 You can go to the 3 chapter of the novel, Vegeta said in front of the crowd that he is pursuing Gohan kind of low consumption and durable and strong level. >Goku also said a sentence: "My full force of a blow should be able to completely destroy him" can see that he himself is not at all sure if he can completely destroy the Fat Buu. when? we also see him say he could have killed the fat buu earlier but wanted the kids to do it. he only had trouble with the other buus, not the fat one. >This already belongs to Vegeta training over the years, then that contradicts salagirs stance on "any ssj3 being better than any ssj2" in terms of brute strength. The obvious exceptions being fusions and what not. >You can go to the 3 chapter of the novel, Vegeta said in front of the crowd that he is pursuing Gohan kind of low consumption and durable and strong level. He can pursue magic if thats the case. gohans power came from magic and not training. Maybe the versions we read have different translations. He is planning to accomplish this goal by himself, not asking for help, as for a clear answer, we should be able to get it when he fights Cell, Salagir also told me that the current Cell, in terms of power, is about the same as the Ultimate Gohan, and Vegeta claims he can win against Gohan, and now that Cell is taking Gohan's place, we should be able to get this clear answer next year. Oh, he gave a hint that now 20 years later, Vegeta and Goku at least have the power to not lose the Ultimate Gohan, I copy the original email below: > Do you think The dharma fusion and Potara Gattai have the same power > increase? I find it simpler to consider that yes. > (Toriyama's comic mentioned that Vegetto's power is so strong is > because Goku and Vegeta are both rivals and friends, and are the > strongest people in Yin and Yang,I don't know if have considered this > in DBM.) I don't know. In the french version of this sentence (said by old kaioshin) we can also take it this way : "they were rivals, thus trained a lot, thus are strong people, hut the result is very strong". > Prior to this, some readers thought that if two Gohan used Potara > together, They will be able to knock down SSJ3Vegetto with ease. > I'd like to see your thoughts, Thanks.^_^ Some said that fusion of two identical beings would create... nothing new. I won't do that. Just like dance and potara, i don't want to have tons of different kinds of fusion. Makes things too complicated. At the end of DBZ, I consider Gohan stronger than Goku and much stronger than Vegeta. So yes, this Gohan² would be much much stronger thatnVegetto. Now, in DBM 20 years later, it's different. As for why I said SSJ2 is even stronger but there will be a cap on the progress of this form and it will lose to the weakest SSJ3, this is the answer the DBM team shared on how they handle power levels: DBM contact Hello! About transformations, in DBM, we decided they were on different levels, like a stairway. So, someone can never become more stronger in normal form that he was once as a super saiyan, same with super saiyan and super saiyan 2, and with super saiyan 2 and 3. But if you do a power up strong enough, if the power gap covers a whole super saiyan level, you can transform into one form without never reaching the previous form (but you have the ability to do so, nonetheless). We hope it answers your question and that you will appreciate the continuation of our story! Good bye!
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Post by supergojita3 on Feb 12, 2021 0:29:05 GMT
>Goku also said a sentence: "My full force of a blow should be able to completely destroy him" can see that he himself is not at all sure if he can completely destroy the Fat Buu. when? we also see him say he could have killed the fat buu earlier but wanted the kids to do it. he only had trouble with the other buus, not the fat one. >This already belongs to Vegeta training over the years, then that contradicts salagirs stance on "any ssj3 being better than any ssj2" in terms of brute strength. The obvious exceptions being fusions and what not. >You can go to the 3 chapter of the novel, Vegeta said in front of the crowd that he is pursuing Gohan kind of low consumption and durable and strong level. He can pursue magic if thats the case. gohans power came from magic and not training. Maybe the versions we read have different translations. He is planning to accomplish this goal by himself, not asking for help, as for a clear answer, we should be able to get it when he fights Cell, Salagir also told me that the current Cell, in terms of power, is about the same as the Ultimate Gohan, and Vegeta claims he can win against Gohan, and now that Cell is taking Gohan's place, we should be able to get this clear answer next year. Oh, he gave a hint that now 20 years later, Vegeta and Goku at least have the power to not lose the Ultimate Gohan, I copy the original email below: > Do you think The dharma fusion and Potara Gattai have the same power > increase? I find it simpler to consider that yes. > (Toriyama's comic mentioned that Vegetto's power is so strong is > because Goku and Vegeta are both rivals and friends, and are the > strongest people in Yin and Yang,I don't know if have considered this > in DBM.) I don't know. In the french version of this sentence (said by old kaioshin) we can also take it this way : "they were rivals, thus trained a lot, thus are strong people, hut the result is very strong". > Prior to this, some readers thought that if two Gohan used Potara > together, They will be able to knock down SSJ3Vegetto with ease. > I'd like to see your thoughts, Thanks.^_^ Some said that fusion of two identical beings would create... nothing new. I won't do that. Just like dance and potara, i don't want to have tons of different kinds of fusion. Makes things too complicated. At the end of DBZ, I consider Gohan stronger than Goku and much stronger than Vegeta. So yes, this Gohan² would be much much stronger thatnVegetto. Now, in DBM 20 years later, it's different. As for why I said SSJ2 is even stronger but there will be a cap on the progress of this form and it will lose to the weakest SSJ3, this is the answer the DBM team shared on how they handle power levels: DBM contact Hello! About transformations, in DBM, we decided they were on different levels, like a stairway. So, someone can never become more stronger in normal form that he was once as a super saiyan, same with super saiyan and super saiyan 2, and with super saiyan 2 and 3. But if you do a power up strong enough, if the power gap covers a whole super saiyan level, you can transform into one form without never reaching the previous form (but you have the ability to do so, nonetheless). We hope it answers your question and that you will appreciate the continuation of our story! Good bye! >Maybe the versions we read have different translations. you mean the db manga? depending on what version, yes it could. The french version put freezas 1st form at 53,000 and not the 530,000 it really is. >Salagir also told me that the current Cell, in terms of power, is about the same as the Ultimate Gohan, and Vegeta claims he can win against Gohan, and now that Cell is taking Gohan's place, we should be able to get this clear answer next year. I would say cell showcased better power than gohan. if that is the case that cell is on par or even weaker like some people said, then it was not conveyed properly. >I don't know. In the french version of this sentence (said by old kaioshin) we can also take it this way : "they were rivals, thus trained a lot, thus are strong people, hut the result is very strong". The english manga simply suggests they are really strong, and it didn't hurt that they worked hard to out do each other. >About transformations, in DBM, we decided they were on different levels, like a stairway. So, someone can never become more stronger in normal form that he was once as a super saiyan, same with super saiyan and super saiyan 2, and with super saiyan 2 and 3. But if you do a power up strong enough, if the power gap covers a whole super saiyan level, you can transform into one form without never reaching the previous form (but you have the ability to do so, nonetheless). Like, I'm familiar with this statement. I'm simply pointing out that u18 vegetas ssj2 was on par with u13 vegetas ssj3 in the novel. This leads me to believe that vegetas base power is considerably higher, and vegetas mastery of ssj3 is so low, that maybe he is a ssj3, but hasn't truly tapped into the full power of ssj3. by this I mean its like having a gun, and not knowing how best to use it. is the safety off? does it come with a scope? a silencer? the best ammo to use for it? u18 goku can pull off a good use of ssj3 from mastery of the form, while ssj3 vegeta of u13 can barely hold it and the ki leaks out faster. though thats just my speculation on it. from what was shown, a ssj2 was on par with a ssj3, for some reason despite what was stated.
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Post by Son Pan on Feb 12, 2021 1:12:38 GMT
My question is would an ASS2 be a big enough power boost to match SS3? I mean ASS itself doesn’t really seem to hold a candle to SS2 in terms of power and speed boost. I cannot really imagine that a hypothetical ASS2 would be that big of boost in power and speed that it can match SS3. A potential USS2 might rival SS3 in raw power it probably still have the same speed decrease and possibly the same stamina issues as SS3 since it puts a lot of strain on the body. I feel like U12 Trunks switching between SS1 and USS form would probably work well for SS3. What if Vegeta’s big secret is he reached SS3 and he is trying to lessen the stress it puts on his body by quickly switching in between SS2 and SS3. Only using SS3 power when he needs it and defaulting back to SS2 whenever he is resting state. My assumption here would be that ASSJ is half as strong as SSJ2, and USSJ is as strong as SSJ2 but only in attack power. So ASSJ would be SSJ x5, and ASSJ2 would be SSJ2 x5. (Since Salagir uses a x10 boost for SSJ2 and SSJ3.) As for USSJ's speed loss, that was because of the big bulging muscles. In the case of transformation channeling, you get a form's power without transforming into it, so there would be no huge muscles to decrease speed at all. While it would definitely be a huge strain on the body, SSJ3 in DBM appears to be less of a strain and more of a time limit. When the two Gotenkses ran out of SSJ3 during their match, they didn't look tired at all. They looked surprised so they probably didn't feel tired either. So while a hypothetical USSJ2 would be strainful, you'd be able to hold it for as long as you can endure. Whereas endurance does nothing to lengthen how long you can stay in SSJ3. I was more talking about the idea that Vegeta's big idea of alternate form being a SS2 variant of ASS and USS respectively not the whole transformation channeling idea. I've seen people talking about Vegeta's secret could be ASS2 or USS2, but to me they have the same downsides that the original forms did, which made them inefficient to compete with SS2 and why the Saiyans abandoned them. Even though Salagir does go different ways from what Toriyama did even I cannot see why Salagir would go back and change it to have ASS and USS forms being better than SS3. SS3 had a weakness in the manga, but nothing suggests that its worse form than the ones Goku already discarded and said were pointless because of said weakness.
If we are talking about channeling a higher transformation into a lower one than I think it would be as simple as Vegeta reached SS3 and will instead channel that power into SS2 if its possible. No need to channel ASS2 and USS2 power into form when we already have SS3 we can channel to a lower form.
whats funny about that is vegeta did that with ssjb and ssjg in dbs. and I think they can drop in and out of forms to lower ones in the novel. vegeta drops to ssj1 when goku refuses to use ssj3. drewsaga >assj2 and ussj2 I think assj2 would stack the bulk multiplier on top of ssj2. its a common transformation, the bulk up thing according to cell, which it is. so basically freeza did the bulk up thing when he went beyond 70% power, so maybe its a 30% power up for assj and the ussj thing is well beyond that. The anime has a form between assj and ussj and cell is like "come on. show me all you got" and trunks is like "lol. ok" and goes to ussj when his mid form assj1.5 does ok against him. thats filler and doesn't count, but its a cool scene. so what is the speed loss on ussj? slower than ssj, but maybe faster than base? and is it just combat speed or is flight speed also decreased? what I mean is if he flys in a straight line and isn't fighting, is he slower too and by how much? and I doubt ussj is as strong as ssj2. the "fpssj" thing is not necesarily a power up in dbm, so much as its a state of mind where goku and gohan can basically fight as ssj without the added stress and rage of being ssj. any daizenshuu stuff will not apply in dbm, so its likely they just trained themselves to be stronger by sparring as opposed to training the form of assj and ussj. I'm thinking this is the case for dbm. ussj is a good power up, and I'd use it in a pinch. imagine going ussj because ssj2 is out of reach for you, but you can teleport like goku. go ussj and warp kamehameha the opponent. sure you're tired, but you did get a good attack in and unlike cell, most people can't regenerate. Good point, USSJ is weaker than SSJ2 and one could argue that Goku and Gohan's FPSSJ is also transformation channeling where they have the power of USSJ or even greater with just regular SSJ but it still would be weaksauce compared to SSJ2 anyways.
So a hypothetical USSJ2 Vegeta would still fall short against SSJ3 Goku even if Vegeta channeled that power into his regular SSJ2 form (meaning it costs less stamina and doesn't sacrifice speed, Vegeta himself said he has speed and power at the same time during his fight with Trunks in DBM).
U12 Trunks pretty much used USSJ only when needed in the tournament against U18 Vegeta. I could be wrong, maybe Goku and Gohan were doing something else besides channeling USSJ, maybe they channeled only ASSJ or maybe they didn't do any of that and if they did maybe they would have been able to take on Perfect Cell without SSJ2 if they did.
As for speed loss, pretty sure USSJ's speed is still far higher than base form.
I don't think Goku and Gohan were channeling ASS or USS into their SS1. I'm a firm believer that FPSS and SS1 are the same thing. I believe Vegeta said it best when Goku and Gohan left the time chamber its not so much that Goku and Gohan unlocked a new transformation, but rather they decided SS1 was their best form and worked to improve it. That meant Goku and Gohan worked on minimize the downsides SS1 had, such as the strain it put on their bodies and energy consumption the transformation took. Like supergojita mentioned they likely trained and made their SS1 forms stronger that way. It's not so much that they figured out how to channel higher form power to increase their SS1 power, but more that since they conditioned their bodies so that SS1 felt as natural as their bases. That had the benefit of freeing up more energy for them to use. The costs of energy it took for them to transform and maintain it was higher than it needed to be. By working to lower those costs they freed up more energy to go into the transformation overall, which meant power and speed went up even more than they did before. That is why Vegeta was kicking himself for missing that. He spent all his time trying to make ASS as strong as possible to make it more worth wild, since he already saw USS was a dead end thanks to the bulk being too extreme and would kill his speed. Vegeta felt he wasted his time improving ASS when he could have done that for SS1 and arguably could have gotten better results. This seemed all but confirmed when Vegeta sensed just how strong Goku had gotten from his training in the time chamber compared to his own growth. Goku at basic SS was leagues above what Vegeta was at with ASS. To Vegeta it was proof he wasted time working on a transformation that was leading him to a dead end.
If we get the whole channeling a higher form into a lower one I believe it will be more noticeable or there will be a bigger deal made out of it.
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Post by 1989Bergling on Feb 12, 2021 9:53:36 GMT
Maybe the versions we read have different translations. He is planning to accomplish this goal by himself, not asking for help, as for a clear answer, we should be able to get it when he fights Cell, Salagir also told me that the current Cell, in terms of power, is about the same as the Ultimate Gohan, and Vegeta claims he can win against Gohan, and now that Cell is taking Gohan's place, we should be able to get this clear answer next year. Oh, he gave a hint that now 20 years later, Vegeta and Goku at least have the power to not lose the Ultimate Gohan, I copy the original email below: > Do you think The dharma fusion and Potara Gattai have the same power > increase? I find it simpler to consider that yes. > (Toriyama's comic mentioned that Vegetto's power is so strong is > because Goku and Vegeta are both rivals and friends, and are the > strongest people in Yin and Yang,I don't know if have considered this > in DBM.) I don't know. In the french version of this sentence (said by old kaioshin) we can also take it this way : "they were rivals, thus trained a lot, thus are strong people, hut the result is very strong". > Prior to this, some readers thought that if two Gohan used Potara > together, They will be able to knock down SSJ3Vegetto with ease. > I'd like to see your thoughts, Thanks.^_^ Some said that fusion of two identical beings would create... nothing new. I won't do that. Just like dance and potara, i don't want to have tons of different kinds of fusion. Makes things too complicated. At the end of DBZ, I consider Gohan stronger than Goku and much stronger than Vegeta. So yes, this Gohan² would be much much stronger thatnVegetto. Now, in DBM 20 years later, it's different. As for why I said SSJ2 is even stronger but there will be a cap on the progress of this form and it will lose to the weakest SSJ3, this is the answer the DBM team shared on how they handle power levels: DBM contact Hello! About transformations, in DBM, we decided they were on different levels, like a stairway. So, someone can never become more stronger in normal form that he was once as a super saiyan, same with super saiyan and super saiyan 2, and with super saiyan 2 and 3. But if you do a power up strong enough, if the power gap covers a whole super saiyan level, you can transform into one form without never reaching the previous form (but you have the ability to do so, nonetheless). We hope it answers your question and that you will appreciate the continuation of our story! Good bye! >Maybe the versions we read have different translations. you mean the db manga? depending on what version, yes it could. The french version put freezas 1st form at 53,000 and not the 530,000 it really is. >Salagir also told me that the current Cell, in terms of power, is about the same as the Ultimate Gohan, and Vegeta claims he can win against Gohan, and now that Cell is taking Gohan's place, we should be able to get this clear answer next year. I would say cell showcased better power than gohan. if that is the case that cell is on par or even weaker like some people said, then it was not conveyed properly. >I don't know. In the french version of this sentence (said by old kaioshin) we can also take it this way : "they were rivals, thus trained a lot, thus are strong people, hut the result is very strong". The english manga simply suggests they are really strong, and it didn't hurt that they worked hard to out do each other. >About transformations, in DBM, we decided they were on different levels, like a stairway. So, someone can never become more stronger in normal form that he was once as a super saiyan, same with super saiyan and super saiyan 2, and with super saiyan 2 and 3. But if you do a power up strong enough, if the power gap covers a whole super saiyan level, you can transform into one form without never reaching the previous form (but you have the ability to do so, nonetheless). Like, I'm familiar with this statement. I'm simply pointing out that u18 vegetas ssj2 was on par with u13 vegetas ssj3 in the novel. This leads me to believe that vegetas base power is considerably higher, and vegetas mastery of ssj3 is so low, that maybe he is a ssj3, but hasn't truly tapped into the full power of ssj3. by this I mean its like having a gun, and not knowing how best to use it. is the safety off? does it come with a scope? a silencer? the best ammo to use for it? u18 goku can pull off a good use of ssj3 from mastery of the form, while ssj3 vegeta of u13 can barely hold it and the ki leaks out faster. though thats just my speculation on it. from what was shown, a ssj2 was on par with a ssj3, for some reason despite what was stated. >you mean the db manga? depending on what version, yes it could. The french version put freezas 1st form at 53,000 and not the 530,000 it really is. What? What a shock, may I see the original picture? >This leads me to believe that vegetas base power is considerably higher, and vegetas mastery of ssj3 is so low, that maybe he is a ssj3, but hasn't truly tapped into the full power of ssj3. Many times the Saiyans in DBM each stage of transformation form will have a ceiling, Salagir also made a point of emphasizing that each Saiyans in their normal state can never win the Final Frieza, which needs to master SSJ1. so I do not think Vegeta's base strength is much so strong.
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Post by supergojita3 on Feb 12, 2021 20:37:34 GMT
>Maybe the versions we read have different translations. you mean the db manga? depending on what version, yes it could. The french version put freezas 1st form at 53,000 and not the 530,000 it really is. >Salagir also told me that the current Cell, in terms of power, is about the same as the Ultimate Gohan, and Vegeta claims he can win against Gohan, and now that Cell is taking Gohan's place, we should be able to get this clear answer next year. I would say cell showcased better power than gohan. if that is the case that cell is on par or even weaker like some people said, then it was not conveyed properly. >I don't know. In the french version of this sentence (said by old kaioshin) we can also take it this way : "they were rivals, thus trained a lot, thus are strong people, hut the result is very strong". The english manga simply suggests they are really strong, and it didn't hurt that they worked hard to out do each other. >About transformations, in DBM, we decided they were on different levels, like a stairway. So, someone can never become more stronger in normal form that he was once as a super saiyan, same with super saiyan and super saiyan 2, and with super saiyan 2 and 3. But if you do a power up strong enough, if the power gap covers a whole super saiyan level, you can transform into one form without never reaching the previous form (but you have the ability to do so, nonetheless). Like, I'm familiar with this statement. I'm simply pointing out that u18 vegetas ssj2 was on par with u13 vegetas ssj3 in the novel. This leads me to believe that vegetas base power is considerably higher, and vegetas mastery of ssj3 is so low, that maybe he is a ssj3, but hasn't truly tapped into the full power of ssj3. by this I mean its like having a gun, and not knowing how best to use it. is the safety off? does it come with a scope? a silencer? the best ammo to use for it? u18 goku can pull off a good use of ssj3 from mastery of the form, while ssj3 vegeta of u13 can barely hold it and the ki leaks out faster. though thats just my speculation on it. from what was shown, a ssj2 was on par with a ssj3, for some reason despite what was stated. >you mean the db manga? depending on what version, yes it could. The french version put freezas 1st form at 53,000 and not the 530,000 it really is. What? What a shock, may I see the original picture? >This leads me to believe that vegetas base power is considerably higher, and vegetas mastery of ssj3 is so low, that maybe he is a ssj3, but hasn't truly tapped into the full power of ssj3. Many times the Saiyans in DBM each stage of transformation form will have a ceiling, Salagir also made a point of emphasizing that each Saiyans in their normal state can never win the Final Frieza, which needs to master SSJ1. so I do not think Vegeta's base strength is much so strong. this was salagirs words. he said freeeza was like 53,000. or rather it was a typo most likely on the french translators. > so I do not think Vegeta's base strength is much so strong. Let me rephrase this. the difference between this u13 vegeta and u18 vegeta is the difference between ssj goku on namek and ssj goku in the cell saga. its a huge jump with u13 having a slight edge in terms of power but ssj2 u18 vegeta can hold his own.
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Post by 1989Bergling on Feb 12, 2021 20:48:01 GMT
>you mean the db manga? depending on what version, yes it could. The french version put freezas 1st form at 53,000 and not the 530,000 it really is. What? What a shock, may I see the original picture? >This leads me to believe that vegetas base power is considerably higher, and vegetas mastery of ssj3 is so low, that maybe he is a ssj3, but hasn't truly tapped into the full power of ssj3. Many times the Saiyans in DBM each stage of transformation form will have a ceiling, Salagir also made a point of emphasizing that each Saiyans in their normal state can never win the Final Frieza, which needs to master SSJ1. so I do not think Vegeta's base strength is much so strong. this was salagirs words. he said freeeza was like 53,000. or rather it was a typo most likely on the french translators. > so I do not think Vegeta's base strength is much so strong. Let me rephrase this. the difference between this u13 vegeta and u18 vegeta is the difference between ssj goku on namek and ssj goku in the cell saga. its a huge jump with u13 having a slight edge in terms of power but ssj2 u18 vegeta can hold his own. I've read this one, and that's his own idea. But I still don't think it will be like this. Let's keep our opinions to each other on who's stronger at this.
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Post by drewsaga on Feb 12, 2021 21:16:26 GMT
>you mean the db manga? depending on what version, yes it could. The french version put freezas 1st form at 53,000 and not the 530,000 it really is. What? What a shock, may I see the original picture? >This leads me to believe that vegetas base power is considerably higher, and vegetas mastery of ssj3 is so low, that maybe he is a ssj3, but hasn't truly tapped into the full power of ssj3. Many times the Saiyans in DBM each stage of transformation form will have a ceiling, Salagir also made a point of emphasizing that each Saiyans in their normal state can never win the Final Frieza, which needs to master SSJ1. so I do not think Vegeta's base strength is much so strong. this was salagirs words. he said freeeza was like 53,000. or rather it was a typo most likely on the french translators. > so I do not think Vegeta's base strength is much so strong. Let me rephrase this. the difference between this u13 vegeta and u18 vegeta is the difference between ssj goku on namek and ssj goku in the cell saga. its a huge jump with u13 having a slight edge in terms of power but ssj2 u18 vegeta can hold his own. I think U18 Vegeta would win just by having more stamina than U13 Vegeta would using a transformation that drains faster.
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Post by supergojita3 on Feb 13, 2021 4:18:15 GMT
this was salagirs words. he said freeeza was like 53,000. or rather it was a typo most likely on the french translators. > so I do not think Vegeta's base strength is much so strong. Let me rephrase this. the difference between this u13 vegeta and u18 vegeta is the difference between ssj goku on namek and ssj goku in the cell saga. its a huge jump with u13 having a slight edge in terms of power but ssj2 u18 vegeta can hold his own. I've read this one, and that's his own idea. But I still don't think it will be like this. Let's keep our opinions to each other on who's stronger at this. Like drew saga said, u18 vegeta is probably able to win because his stamina is better. fight defensively and u13 vegeta loses from ki drain, like with raichi. on the 53,000 number...yeah salagir did cite that he knows its not 53k, and 530k is more accurate.
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Post by 1996IMILiEN on Mar 29, 2021 19:23:28 GMT
Can play beyond the power of SSJ3 in a lower form, like Mystic Gohan, according to what Arctika said at the time, Vegeta looked like SSJ2 when he fought U13 Kakarotto at the time, but the power was much stronger than the common strongest SSJ2, (YES... Vegetto and Bra are the exceptions.)
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Post by 1996IMILiEN on Mar 29, 2021 19:32:33 GMT
>you mean the db manga? depending on what version, yes it could. The french version put freezas 1st form at 53,000 and not the 530,000 it really is. What? What a shock, may I see the original picture? >This leads me to believe that vegetas base power is considerably higher, and vegetas mastery of ssj3 is so low, that maybe he is a ssj3, but hasn't truly tapped into the full power of ssj3. Many times the Saiyans in DBM each stage of transformation form will have a ceiling, Salagir also made a point of emphasizing that each Saiyans in their normal state can never win the Final Frieza, which needs to master SSJ1. so I do not think Vegeta's base strength is much so strong. this was salagirs words. he said freeeza was like 53,000. or rather it was a typo most likely on the french translators. > so I do not think Vegeta's base strength is much so strong. Let me rephrase this. the difference between this u13 vegeta and u18 vegeta is the difference between ssj goku on namek and ssj goku in the cell saga. its a huge jump with u13 having a slight edge in terms of power but ssj2 u18 vegeta can hold his own. > the difference between this u13 vegeta and u18 vegeta is the difference between ssj goku on namek and ssj goku in the cell saga. its a huge jump with u13 having a slight edge in terms of power but ssj2 u18 vegeta can hold his own. Actually, except for Potara and Dance Fusion. The strongest SSJ2 in general can never defeat the weakest SSJ3. hey, novelization of chapter 95 mentioned Vegeta in SSJ2 form to compress the energy to a minimum, but still stronger than Trunks' SSJ1 form. So the above explanation about the DBM team proves it.
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Post by supergojita3 on Mar 29, 2021 22:33:27 GMT
this was salagirs words. he said freeeza was like 53,000. or rather it was a typo most likely on the french translators. > so I do not think Vegeta's base strength is much so strong. Let me rephrase this. the difference between this u13 vegeta and u18 vegeta is the difference between ssj goku on namek and ssj goku in the cell saga. its a huge jump with u13 having a slight edge in terms of power but ssj2 u18 vegeta can hold his own. > the difference between this u13 vegeta and u18 vegeta is the difference between ssj goku on namek and ssj goku in the cell saga. its a huge jump with u13 having a slight edge in terms of power but ssj2 u18 vegeta can hold his own. Actually, except for Potara and Dance Fusion. The strongest SSJ2 in general can never defeat the weakest SSJ3. hey, novelization of chapter 95 mentioned Vegeta in SSJ2 form to compress the energy to a minimum, but still stronger than Trunks' SSJ1 form. So the above explanation about the DBM team proves it. I'm certainly not disputing this. vegeta of u13 is an untrained ssj3 who might have lost power from the ssj3 ki drain and might not win from that factor. thats how he lost to raichi and ssj1 vegeta of u3 after all. so u13 has the higher power, while u18 vegeta has the better stamina.
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Post by Dismaned on May 17, 2021 14:34:31 GMT
Vegeta's new power is SSJ4 hehe
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Post by godjacob on May 17, 2021 18:40:05 GMT
Vegeta's new power is SSJ4 hehe Fuck it. I'd honestly mark out if that happened.
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