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Post by supergojita3 on Mar 19, 2021 20:31:56 GMT
So far I've seen a lot of people bring up points that don't adequately apply to bra. Even going so far as to lie about buu praising bras techniques, which was only really citing that u16 as a whole was hiding them. He didn't actually suggest they were awesome. That is incorrect. simply put, the language concerning a mary sue hasn't seemingly evolved to suggest that it is what you are suggesting it means. in regards to a mary sue: Meanwhile, you have: - Accused Vegeta of being one, which was disproven several times - Accused Zen Buu of being one, then backpedalled and started making excuses - Accuased Gast of being one and ignored requests to explain - Agreed that "Jerk Sue" fits, then saw that it is listed as a Mary Sue variation and immediatelly began backpedaling again while making more excuses Sorry, dude. If anyone doesn't know what words mean here, it's you. Your burning love for Bra is just blinding you, no matter how much you refuse to admit it. "I'm not defending her" while also constantly claiming she has "tons of flaws" and completely ignoring any request to list them, downplaying her sueish traits, completely ignoring anything that proves you wrong and pretending it's not there, throwing random accusations around, and making all sorts of excuses not to have to admit to being wrong. That's of course not even bringing up how "Toxic" would be a compliment compared to how you acted when defending Bra in the main page a few chapters ago, and now again here. I was using similar traits on vegeta, he isn't one either, but damn if he's not cool though. Zenbuu isn't one either. he lacks the obvious self insert trait, unless you're using the novel where he ppipes up and tells the story from his perspective, and embellishes certain traits he has. Because really A mary sue has always from the start been a "self insert" character, and from there you add other traits on top of it. It would be like saying "a cake and a raised doughnut are both cakes because they tick off several of the same boxes, but a cake is not a doughnut, and a raised doughnut is not a cake. Making a mary sue by default would have the default position of a mary sue, adding other traits that have flaws, or jerk traits, and so on only add up to being a sue if the defining main trait is met. >Accuased Gast of being one and ignored requests to explain See above. > Agreed that "Jerk Sue" fits, then saw that it is listed as a Mary Sue variation and immediatelly began backpedaling again while making more excuses Its not my fault you didn't understand the sarcasm. Sarcasm, by my own admission can be hard to get if its conveyed via text. You lack the context of my voice, facial expression and so on, so I don't fault you for that. >That's of course not even bringing up how "Toxic" would be a compliment compared to how you acted when defending Bra in the main page a few chapters ago, and now again here. Thats quite irrelevant, considering how I kind of don't like her as much as I used to. She's too similar to vegeta back in the day, and too soft now. I'd rather have less of her in the story as of this moment.
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Post by godjacob on May 1, 2021 18:23:16 GMT
Been too long since I've logged on here. Real life has been in a pain in the ass, but what a difference a year makes.
I originally voted Bra was a Mary Sue before the Majin Rebellion Arc concluded and the events of it only now seem to make it an inarguable case. Which is a shame given the idea of a female fighter being a top tier and the idea of a Potara child are both equally appealing to me but man did they botch it here.
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Post by supergojita3 on May 2, 2021 2:31:22 GMT
Been too long since I've logged on here. Real life has been in a pain in the ass, but what a difference a year makes. I originally voted Bra was a Mary Sue before the Majin Rebellion Arc concluded and the events of it only now seem to make it an inarguable case. Which is a shame given the idea of a female fighter being a top tier and the idea of a Potara child are both equally appealing to me but man did they botch it here. I do agree they botched her character, but I don't see how the "sue" definition fits. without her being an insert character, she doesn't fit that mold. For example, toriyama inserts his own character also called Tori-bot in the actual db manga. static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11134/111343933/6300057-tori-bot%20bean%20fail.pngthis is actually from dr slump, but you could actually make the case this is a mary sue due to it being AT inserting himself as a robot character. Bra is not an insert of salagir or anyone on the staff, but if it did turn out she was an insert character of someone, then she would be. Now, the creators pet is as bad as the mary sue moniker, as you don't need this to be an insert character but the time and attention on the thing can be toxic and annoying. personally I'm glad the staff decided to tone down how much bra will be in the comic later, as over saturation of the character detracted from the enjoyment of the comic when the majin arc was over. they also made vegetto look dumb. maybe they were intending on vegetto being redeemed later, by cheering for his own daughter vs gast, and losing his shit when she lost, but we don't know the full story yet. maybe this was done to make her look like shit on purpose so she can hand the reigns over to goku, as that is kind of a db staple. goku finished the business in most of db, and 3/4 of dbz by beig absent until the end. If that was the case, then I guess salagir is falling back on the dbz trope of goku swooping in to save the day and reducing established characters of the arc to fodder some how. though, the buu arc did have goku win with help.
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Post by godjacob on May 2, 2021 2:39:44 GMT
Been too long since I've logged on here. Real life has been in a pain in the ass, but what a difference a year makes. I originally voted Bra was a Mary Sue before the Majin Rebellion Arc concluded and the events of it only now seem to make it an inarguable case. Which is a shame given the idea of a female fighter being a top tier and the idea of a Potara child are both equally appealing to me but man did they botch it here. I do agree they botched her character, but I don't see how the "sue" definition fits. without her being an insert character, she doesn't fit that mold. For example, toriyama inserts his own character also called Tori-bot in the actual db manga. static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11134/111343933/6300057-tori-bot%20bean%20fail.pngthis is actually from dr slump, but you could actually make the case this is a mary sue due to it being AT inserting himself as a robot character. Bra is not an insert of salagir or anyone on the staff, but if it did turn out she was an insert character of someone, then she would be. Now, the creators pet is as bad as the mary sue moniker, as you don't need this to be an insert character but the time and attention on the thing can be toxic and annoying. personally I'm glad the staff decided to tone down how much bra will be in the comic later, as over saturation of the character detracted from the enjoyment of the comic when the majin arc was over. they also made vegetto look dumb. maybe they were intending on vegetto being redeemed later, by cheering for his own daughter vs gast, and losing his shit when she lost, but we don't know the full story yet. maybe this was done to make her look like shit on purpose so she can hand the reigns over to goku, as that is kind of a db staple. goku finished the business in most of db, and 3/4 of dbz by beig absent until the end. If that was the case, then I guess salagir is falling back on the dbz trope of goku swooping in to save the day and reducing established characters of the arc to fodder some how. though, the buu arc did have goku win with help. I mean, comparing the Tori-Bot character to Bra feels like the most "loose" comparison to make here. I called Bra a Mary Sue, not a self insert (The author is a male so this would be kinda hard on the surface). Tori-Bot is a gag character representing a gag author at heart who makes himself the joke as much as anything else. It is never meant to be taken seriously even in mini-series focused on "him" and that intent is made as obvious as possible. Not if Toriyama had the Tori-Bot actually in Dragon Ball as a legit character in universe, presented him as this figure with a key connection to canon characters (Say built by Dr. Gero but rebelled to the side of good), gave preferred story treatment and made other characters act OOC to shrill or come to their defense from any voice speaking against it along with being a super cool badass bot then you could begin to compare it to DBM Bra.
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Post by supergojita3 on May 2, 2021 7:01:04 GMT
I do agree they botched her character, but I don't see how the "sue" definition fits. without her being an insert character, she doesn't fit that mold. For example, toriyama inserts his own character also called Tori-bot in the actual db manga. static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11134/111343933/6300057-tori-bot%20bean%20fail.pngthis is actually from dr slump, but you could actually make the case this is a mary sue due to it being AT inserting himself as a robot character. Bra is not an insert of salagir or anyone on the staff, but if it did turn out she was an insert character of someone, then she would be. Now, the creators pet is as bad as the mary sue moniker, as you don't need this to be an insert character but the time and attention on the thing can be toxic and annoying. personally I'm glad the staff decided to tone down how much bra will be in the comic later, as over saturation of the character detracted from the enjoyment of the comic when the majin arc was over. they also made vegetto look dumb. maybe they were intending on vegetto being redeemed later, by cheering for his own daughter vs gast, and losing his shit when she lost, but we don't know the full story yet. maybe this was done to make her look like shit on purpose so she can hand the reigns over to goku, as that is kind of a db staple. goku finished the business in most of db, and 3/4 of dbz by beig absent until the end. If that was the case, then I guess salagir is falling back on the dbz trope of goku swooping in to save the day and reducing established characters of the arc to fodder some how. though, the buu arc did have goku win with help. I mean, comparing the Tori-Bot character to Bra feels like the most "loose" comparison to make here. I called Bra a Mary Sue, not a self insert (The author is a male so this would be kinda hard on the surface). Tori-Bot is a gag character representing a gag author at heart who makes himself the joke as much as anything else. It is never meant to be taken seriously even in mini-series focused on "him" and that intent is made as obvious as possible. Not if Toriyama had the Tori-Bot actually in Dragon Ball as a legit character in universe, presented him as this figure with a key connection to canon characters (Say built by Dr. Gero but rebelled to the side of good), gave preferred story treatment and made other characters act OOC to shrill or come to their defense from any voice speaking against it along with being a super cool badass bot then you could begin to compare it to DBM Bra. >I called Bra a Mary Sue, not a self insert Thats what a mary sue is canonically considered by the creator of the term. the terms jerk sue, mary sue and other sue-esque terms would need to be self insert characters by default. The term creators pet is more apt, as it does not require the character to be an insert character. I've posted the origin of the term on this thread, and I actually voted "no, but just as bad" because I get what the spirit of the poll was getting at, but its technically an incorrect term. It'd be like using the phrase "the road not taken" to mean you took the better more rightous path as opposed to the easy way out, when its not meant to mean that at all. its been suggested, If I recall to mean the person simply took the other way because it was The entirety of "The Road Not Taken" is an extended metaphor in which the road "less traveled" symbolizes the path of nonconformity. The speaker, when trying to choose which road to take, looks for the road that seems less worn. it has nothing to do with virtues or bettering ones self. A creators pet is a character that to my knowledge is what bra is, a character hogging the spotlight and inserted more often than needed. The gast vs raichi fight for instance. the ginyu fight could have been special for example.
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Post by godjacob on May 2, 2021 18:00:06 GMT
>I called Bra a Mary Sue, not a self insert Thats what a mary sue is canonically considered by the creator of the term. the terms jerk sue, mary sue and other sue-esque terms would need to be self insert characters by default. The term creators pet is more apt, as it does not require the character to be an insert character. I've posted the origin of the term on this thread, and I actually voted "no, but just as bad" because I get what the spirit of the poll was getting at, but its technically an incorrect term. It'd be like using the phrase "the road not taken" to mean you took the better more rightous path as opposed to the easy way out, when its not meant to mean that at all. its been suggested, If I recall to mean the person simply took the other way because it was The entirety of "The Road Not Taken" is an extended metaphor in which the road "less traveled" symbolizes the path of nonconformity. The speaker, when trying to choose which road to take, looks for the road that seems less worn. it has nothing to do with virtues or bettering ones self. A creators pet is a character that to my knowledge is what bra is, a character hogging the spotlight and inserted more often than needed. The gast vs raichi fight for instance. the ginyu fight could have been special for example. I feel you are using a very specific stance on what "Mary Sue" is here, in that a Mary Sue can often be more than just a self-insert of an author but rather can act as a vessel for wish fulfillment which doesn't require the character to be a literal author plug as a character. And Bra more than anyone defiantly fills the wish fulfillment aspect as it is basically Salagir's waifu adventures. It often is a self insert, but not always in every scenario. Bra does more than hog the spotlight, she literally twists the world around her and how people act in order to come out in a positive light which is something entirely different even from the stories other creator pets in Gast or Zen Buu. Anyone who dares make any objection to her or her actions is framed as in the wrong. Why do you think that Bra from Universe 18, based entirely on her GT look which Salagir otherwise seemed to dislike, was allowed in the roster as she was? More specifically be the one to talk Bra down when all other warriors failed to stop her?
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Post by Saudade on May 2, 2021 19:07:18 GMT
>I called Bra a Mary Sue, not a self insert Thats what a mary sue is canonically considered by the creator of the term. the terms jerk sue, mary sue and other sue-esque terms would need to be self insert characters by default. The term creators pet is more apt, as it does not require the character to be an insert character. I've posted the origin of the term on this thread, and I actually voted "no, but just as bad" because I get what the spirit of the poll was getting at, but its technically an incorrect term. It'd be like using the phrase "the road not taken" to mean you took the better more rightous path as opposed to the easy way out, when its not meant to mean that at all. its been suggested, If I recall to mean the person simply took the other way because it was The entirety of "The Road Not Taken" is an extended metaphor in which the road "less traveled" symbolizes the path of nonconformity. The speaker, when trying to choose which road to take, looks for the road that seems less worn. it has nothing to do with virtues or bettering ones self. A creators pet is a character that to my knowledge is what bra is, a character hogging the spotlight and inserted more often than needed. The gast vs raichi fight for instance. the ginyu fight could have been special for example. I feel you are using a very specific stance on what "Mary Sue" is here, in that a Mary Sue can often be more than just a self-insert of an author but rather can act as a vessel for wish fulfillment which doesn't require the character to be a literal author plug as a character. And Bra more than anyone defiantly fills the wish fulfillment aspect as it is basically Salagir's waifu adventures. It often is a self insert, but not always in every scenario. Bra does more than hog the spotlight, she literally twists the world around her and how people act in order to come out in a positive light which is something entirely different even from the stories other creator pets in Gast or Zen Buu. Anyone who dares make any objection to her or her actions is framed as in the wrong. Why do you think that Bra from Universe 18, based entirely on her GT look which Salagir otherwise seemed to dislike, was allowed in the roster as she was? More specifically be the one to talk Bra down when all other warriors failed to stop her? Don't waste your time with him, he will just repeat arguments that were already dismissed elsewhere and win by tiring you over with awfully long and disconnected posts, he killed this thread by himself even, it's pointless arguing with someone that will ignore everything you say.
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Post by supergojita3 on May 2, 2021 19:12:04 GMT
>I called Bra a Mary Sue, not a self insert Thats what a mary sue is canonically considered by the creator of the term. the terms jerk sue, mary sue and other sue-esque terms would need to be self insert characters by default. The term creators pet is more apt, as it does not require the character to be an insert character. I've posted the origin of the term on this thread, and I actually voted "no, but just as bad" because I get what the spirit of the poll was getting at, but its technically an incorrect term. It'd be like using the phrase "the road not taken" to mean you took the better more rightous path as opposed to the easy way out, when its not meant to mean that at all. its been suggested, If I recall to mean the person simply took the other way because it was The entirety of "The Road Not Taken" is an extended metaphor in which the road "less traveled" symbolizes the path of nonconformity. The speaker, when trying to choose which road to take, looks for the road that seems less worn. it has nothing to do with virtues or bettering ones self. A creators pet is a character that to my knowledge is what bra is, a character hogging the spotlight and inserted more often than needed. The gast vs raichi fight for instance. the ginyu fight could have been special for example. I feel you are using a very specific stance on what "Mary Sue" is here, in that a Mary Sue can often be more than just a self-insert of an author but rather can act as a vessel for wish fulfillment which doesn't require the character to be a literal author plug as a character. And Bra more than anyone defiantly fills the wish fulfillment aspect as it is basically Salagir's waifu adventures. It often is a self insert, but not always in every scenario. Bra does more than hog the spotlight, she literally twists the world around her and how people act in order to come out in a positive light which is something entirely different even from the stories other creator pets in Gast or Zen Buu. Anyone who dares make any objection to her or her actions is framed as in the wrong. Why do you think that Bra from Universe 18, based entirely on her GT look which Salagir otherwise seemed to dislike, was allowed in the roster as she was? More specifically be the one to talk Bra down when all other warriors failed to stop her? >I feel you are using a very specific stance on what "Mary Sue" is here, I'm using the creators definition as well as what I've looked up on websites that also define it. terms like mary sue have pretty much been nailed down. "WHAT DOES MARY SUE MEAN? Mary Sue is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction."www.dictionary.com/e/fictional-characters/mary-sue/So this is one site I linked to earlier. The definition seems to assert that to be a sue, it must be a self insert character by default, with idealized traits also being required. So bra doesn't really fit either the idealized part or the self insert part, as no one outside of her family really likes her, her techniques weren't really all that special and weren't "praised" (being called out for not showing off the u16 techniques by buu isn't praise. he's scolding them for being stingy) and preventing her murder isn't something unique to db or fiction in general. or real life really. So the term mary sue doesn't fit, even though I acknowledge the spirit of the poll and the thread. bra isn't a good or well written character, and I'm not defending her so much as I'm pointing out the term we should be using which is equally as bad. It's like calling someone a fool or a retard. one might be colloquially in use to mean the same as the other, but retard is a medical term used to describe severe mental deficiencies, and is not truly to be used as a synonym for the other. I believe to be retarded means to have an IQ of 70 or less, and many factors can lead to this like down syndrome and brain damage. being a fool might be buying snake oil because it "sounded like a good deal!" and making a bad purchase or some other unwise decision in day to day things. Its more or less a matter of semantics now. I acknowledge that the majority are using the term mary sue in the informal sense, and its not the correct or rather "more correct" formal definition. much like the use of retard has come to be used to mean something akin to calling someone dumb when it really doesn't mean that so much as its got its meaning in terms of medical terminology, and it has been dropped lately as far as that due to being now considered a mocking term not even used in the medical field. But I digress, I will respect that you do intend to use the term in the informal sense, rather than the creators original intended formal sense, and that is ok. After all, language has evolved in the colloquial sense, and I also adapted to using slang in my every day speech, even if it isn't technically correct. so I'm guilty of using terminology that is incorrect. I call 17 and 18 "androids" after all. even if thats not at all what they are. They are cyborgs, but I dumb down my speech to get across to dub fans who grew up with them being called androids even if it is the wrong word to use. (sigh) Here we go again I guess, saudade.
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Post by Saudade on May 2, 2021 23:19:31 GMT
Déjà Vu.
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Post by Xman321 on May 3, 2021 0:03:10 GMT
I'm using the creators definition as well as what I've looked up on websites that also define it. terms like mary sue have pretty much been nailed down. "WHAT DOES MARY SUE MEAN? Mary Sue is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction."www.dictionary.com/e/fictional-characters/mary-sue/So this is one site I linked to earlier. The definition seems to assert that to be a sue, it must be a self insert character by default, with idealized traits also being required. So bra doesn't really fit either the idealized part or the self insert part, as no one outside of her family really likes her, her techniques weren't really all that special and weren't "praised" (being called out for not showing off the u16 techniques by buu isn't praise. he's scolding them for being stingy) and preventing her murder isn't something unique to db or fiction in general. or real life really. So the term mary sue doesn't fit, even though I acknowledge the spirit of the poll and the thread. bra isn't a good or well written character, and I'm not defending her so much as I'm pointing out the term we should be using which is equally as bad. So, I wasn't even gonna throw my hat into this ring because I don't see the point, and I still kinda don't, but I can't help but point out something in particular here. You keep working with this definition, and I get why. The original coiner of the term specifically refers to it as an author avatar of some variety in that. That's fair enough, in my book, but ignoring the fact that: - The example she made technically doesn't qualify as a Mary Sue under her own definition, presumably, since I doubt she was outright written as an author avatar or self insert of the creator if it was made to prove a point.
- The fact that nobody else has seemed to find the information you're referring to in any other links, which means it might not be 100% reliable.
...there's one very clear part of the exact definition you're giving that doesn't add up. Let's look at the quote you gave again.
Mary Sue is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction." Originally.
Words change meaning overtime. That's a fact that's kinda always been true. When the general public gives a word new meaning, that meaning becomes TRUE. Definitions are guidelines for how people use a word, not strict unchanging definitions that can never fade over time. The term 'Mary Sue' might have been developed to refer to author avatars and the like, but the term nowadays has evolved to be a much broader term. Claiming that the original definition is the 'formal' one and can never be changed is silly when smackdown got turned into a word because one Wrestler said it so much it became popular. Whether Bra is a Mary Sue or not, the original definition of the term has evolved. I'd argue that the author avatar thing is more of a guideline than a general rule nowadays, because of how people have learned to use it.
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Post by supergojita3 on May 3, 2021 0:14:37 GMT
I'm using the creators definition as well as what I've looked up on websites that also define it. terms like mary sue have pretty much been nailed down. "WHAT DOES MARY SUE MEAN? Mary Sue is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction."www.dictionary.com/e/fictional-characters/mary-sue/So this is one site I linked to earlier. The definition seems to assert that to be a sue, it must be a self insert character by default, with idealized traits also being required. So bra doesn't really fit either the idealized part or the self insert part, as no one outside of her family really likes her, her techniques weren't really all that special and weren't "praised" (being called out for not showing off the u16 techniques by buu isn't praise. he's scolding them for being stingy) and preventing her murder isn't something unique to db or fiction in general. or real life really. So the term mary sue doesn't fit, even though I acknowledge the spirit of the poll and the thread. bra isn't a good or well written character, and I'm not defending her so much as I'm pointing out the term we should be using which is equally as bad. So, I wasn't even gonna throw my hat into this ring because I don't see the point, and I still kinda don't, but I can't help but point out something in particular here. You keep working with this definition, and I get why. The original coiner of the term specifically refers to it as an author avatar of some variety in that. That's fair enough, in my book, but ignoring the fact that: - The example she made technically doesn't qualify as a Mary Sue under her own definition, presumably, since I doubt she was outright written as an author avatar or self insert of the creator if it was made to prove a point.
- The fact that nobody else has seemed to find the information you're referring to in any other links, which means it might not be 100% reliable.
...there's one very clear part of the exact definition you're giving that doesn't add up. Let's look at the quote you gave again.
Mary Sue is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction." Originally.
Words change meaning overtime. That's a fact that's kinda always been true. When the general public gives a word new meaning, that meaning becomes TRUE. Definitions are guidelines for how people use a word, not strict unchanging definitions that can never fade over time. The term 'Mary Sue' might have been developed to refer to author avatars and the like, but the term nowadays has evolved to be a much broader term. Claiming that the original definition is the 'formal' one and can never be changed is silly when smackdown got turned into a word because one Wrestler said it so much it became popular. Whether Bra is a Mary Sue or not, the original definition of the term has evolved. I'd argue that the author avatar thing is more of a guideline than a general rule nowadays, because of how people have learned to use it. yup. they're using an informal definition, which is fine. I use informal terms myself. maybe we could close on its not technically correct, but people use the term even if its not the true term froma technical definition. Its slang, which isn't really what words mean from a literal standpoint. Its short hand terminology that means something than what it actually means, but it gets the point across. though on the contrary, no one has really pointed out a site that nails down their definition either, outside of 1 fan site. I posted an article from the smithsonian magazine and others. An informal definition suits me well. It basically biols down to meaning the creators pet, even if they call it a mary sue. Or like some people might say "same difference". There is also the issue of the forum owner informing me that some people aren't native english speakers, so they don't understand the subtle nuance of some of the idioms used. This is a common problem on here, as even the forum owner had issues with a non english native speaker, so I'm willing to put up with the rude attitudes of some of the dissent on this thread, despite everything.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2021 7:16:39 GMT
gay meant happy originally. that was it's originally meaning so thats what it still means. meanings cant change, they must always stay the same, so whenever someone uses gay to say a man likes another man i will say no it doesnt mean that, Just an informal definition, the formal definition is it means happy because that what it originally meant and every time somebody uses the word gay in this forum i will respond every single time forever to tell people that it doesnt mean a man that loves another man but happy self-inserts arent mary sues, else they would be synoynms and they arent, they have never been. you are pretending their the same thing. toribot is a self-insert, not a mary sue. you can have good self inserts, You can't have good mary sues. because mary sues have always been about shitty writing. people looked at a lot of shitty writing long ago and said oh hey, MUCH of these are self-inserts, but What they really all had was shitty writing. obviously mary sue was meant to imply something self insert dind't already or else we would only use the word self-insert. or we would say BAD self insert. so whats the difference between mary sue and self-insert? shit writing. That's what bra is, we wouldnt have this thread at all if we were just asking people if she a self insert.
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Post by supergojita3 on May 3, 2021 19:05:26 GMT
gay meant happy originally. that was it's originally meaning so thats what it still means. meanings cant change, they must always stay the same, so whenever someone uses gay to say a man likes another man i will say no it doesnt mean that, Just an informal definition, the formal definition is it means happy because that what it originally meant and every time somebody uses the word gay in this forum i will respond every single time forever to tell people that it doesnt mean a man that loves another man but happy self-inserts arent mary sues, else they would be synoynms and they arent, they have never been. you are pretending their the same thing. toribot is a self-insert, not a mary sue. you can have good self inserts, You can't have good mary sues. because mary sues have always been about shitty writing. people looked at a lot of shitty writing long ago and said oh hey, MUCH of these are self-inserts, but What they really all had was shitty writing. obviously mary sue was meant to imply something self insert dind't already or else we would only use the word self-insert. or we would say BAD self insert. so whats the difference between mary sue and self-insert? shit writing. That's what bra is, we wouldnt have this thread at all if we were just asking people if she a self insert. I already acknowledged the informal use of a definition. So while good eye to spot the use of gay, but does this apply to mary sue specifically? Where on the internet outside of a non official writing sites like wikipedia does this term have this definition? Like I could go to a site that defines terms like gay and it would be in official documents like a dictionary, yet no one can point to a source to define mary sue without the site also conradicting its self. The site some peopel were pointting to earlier also had many points against bra being a mary sue, so while the terms of english can change, you'd have to prove now this term did in fact change and its not the people using it incorrectly. www.dictionary.com/e/fictional-characters/mary-sue/so while I can post this link and many others citing a self insert character, no one has posted proof of the term evolving in the way you are suggesting. The phrase "for all intents and purposes" has been bastardized as "for all intensive purposes" online on face book and other social media platforms. this is simply incorrect. So, while I'll admit that mary sue being used in an informal way is fine for what you are trying to get across, the "creators pet" "intensive purposes" is incorrect in every way. we don't evolve language based on stupidity, and that would be an example of "devolving" language because people didn't feel like using correct terminology. I'm all for language evovling but so far I haven't seen any evidence it did outside 1 web site that has evidence the term doesn't mean that either, so the site contradicts itself because it is run by fans and not actual authors. Now, the informal definition suits me fine, we simply just needed a term to get across that bra is salagirs pet project he wanted in there, and well, be it the creators pet or the informal use of mary sue thats fine in my opinion. after all, a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet, and a creators pet by any other name is just as lame. Also, the use of gay, much like mary sue is an informal definition. the word gay has been around since the 12th century and did not mean anything about being homosexual until the 1600's. for language to evolve and not be used simply incorrectly, it really should need to be around for more than like 50 years. your example is seemingly inadequate. Tell you what, we'll let the term mary sue mean what it meant originally, for say 400 years like the word gay you used as an example, and in 400 years we can change it if you want to use a word that has had proper time to evolve as your example. >obviously mary sue was meant to imply something self insert dind't already or else we would only use the word self-insert. or we would say BAD self insert. Or you could use the term creators pet. we already have a word that means what you want to say. and we wouldn't say "insert character" when there is already a term for that. mary sue. For context, a creator's pet is a character that the writer usually adores or relates to personally and devotes an ever-increasing proportion of the story to, often despite vocal dislike from the audience. so even though the term creatos pet is what you mean, you can call it a mary sue even though its technically inaccurate. Like I said, a rose by any other name is just as sweet, and a creators pet by any other name is just as bad. I don't mind you guys calling her a mary sue at this point, because its like calling the cyborgs in dbz "androids". its technically wrong, but its easy to digest mentally for most fans who grew up with it. Calling bra a mary sue is just easier for you to digest mentally, so why not? same difference as the android/cyborg thing. or you can keep arguing with your head in the sand.
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Post by baconfam on Jun 5, 2021 16:19:50 GMT
At the VERY LEAST
She's a "Creator's Pet"
But I voted "Yes" to her being a Mary Sue too now. She literally got dumbasses to side with her after all she'd done.
And a friend told me "If Spopovitch had some control over himself, Bra did too."
Salagir just wanted to see her kill Gohan. And own everybody.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 5, 2021 22:29:28 GMT
At the VERY LEAST She's a "Creator's Pet" But I voted "Yes" to her being a Mary Sue too now. She literally got dumbasses to side with her after all she'd done. And a friend told me "If Spopovitch had some control over himself, Bra did too." Salagir just wanted to see her kill Gohan. And own everybody. I don't think spopovitch had any real control. Or not the control most people have. And yeah, I am glad you are smart enough unlike most people to cite the term creators pet, and I don't mind the use of mary sue either, its more a technical hurdle really. I get the impression you voted more out of spite than a means to define the term, but at the end of the day bras not really my cup of tea any more. She was cool ( for me anyhow) but now she's like a less charismatic vegeta without the backstory to well, back up her resolve. which she has none. Dabura was the most rebellious of the majins who weren't vegeta in canon. he defied babadis orders, but not in the way vegeta did. he was like "zomg, I gotta save babadi even if he thinks buu is his champion!" as opposed to vegetas "I refuse. I onlly wanna fight kakarot" spopovitch was fighting to gather energy, but I get the impression he drew out the fight with videl for 2 reasons. 1-he had a beef with satan, and videl was 1 way to gert to him/ 2-don't majins gather energy when inflicting damage? his attacks helped buu, even if slightly. 3-other? I'm not sure what you mean when you say spopovitch had control of himself.
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Post by baconfam on Jun 5, 2021 23:28:40 GMT
At the VERY LEAST She's a "Creator's Pet" But I voted "Yes" to her being a Mary Sue too now. She literally got dumbasses to side with her after all she'd done. And a friend told me "If Spopovitch had some control over himself, Bra did too." Salagir just wanted to see her kill Gohan. And own everybody. I don't think spopovitch had any real control. Or not the control most people have. And yeah, I am glad you are smart enough unlike most people to cite the term creators pet, and I don't mind the use of mary sue either, its more a technical hurdle really. I get the impression you voted more out of spite than a means to define the term, but at the end of the day bras not really my cup of tea any more. She was cool ( for me anyhow) but now she's like a less charismatic vegeta without the backstory to well, back up her resolve. which she has none. Dabura was the most rebellious of the majins who weren't vegeta in canon. he defied babadis orders, but not in the way vegeta did. he was like "zomg, I gotta save babadi even if he thinks buu is his champion!" as opposed to vegetas "I refuse. I onlly wanna fight kakarot" spopovitch was fighting to gather energy, but I get the impression he drew out the fight with videl for 2 reasons. 1-he had a beef with satan, and videl was 1 way to gert to him/ 2-don't majins gather energy when inflicting damage? his attacks helped buu, even if slightly. 3-other? I'm not sure what you mean when you say spopovitch had control of himself. When Yamu told him to stop, he stopped. He didn't continue. Even if not to kill her he could still continue to torture her if he wanted. Some part of Bra had to have wanted to kill the people around her. Sure, Babidi gave the order, but he later got preoccupied and she didn't even TRY to resist. I do not beleive she had no control of herself. It contradicts what we've seen. Also, I've been reading your posts and you seem really petty. You do care more about semantics, even after they showed yout he original creator of the term said it's changed. On top of that, Bra really does check most of the list. Why are you so hell bent on flooding people with long ass posts? And getting pettier and pettier about small details? It doesn't look smart, bro. It looks petty.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 5, 2021 23:58:05 GMT
I don't think spopovitch had any real control. Or not the control most people have. And yeah, I am glad you are smart enough unlike most people to cite the term creators pet, and I don't mind the use of mary sue either, its more a technical hurdle really. I get the impression you voted more out of spite than a means to define the term, but at the end of the day bras not really my cup of tea any more. She was cool ( for me anyhow) but now she's like a less charismatic vegeta without the backstory to well, back up her resolve. which she has none. Dabura was the most rebellious of the majins who weren't vegeta in canon. he defied babadis orders, but not in the way vegeta did. he was like "zomg, I gotta save babadi even if he thinks buu is his champion!" as opposed to vegetas "I refuse. I onlly wanna fight kakarot" spopovitch was fighting to gather energy, but I get the impression he drew out the fight with videl for 2 reasons. 1-he had a beef with satan, and videl was 1 way to gert to him/ 2-don't majins gather energy when inflicting damage? his attacks helped buu, even if slightly. 3-other? I'm not sure what you mean when you say spopovitch had control of himself. When Yamu told him to stop, he stopped. He didn't continue. Even if not to kill her he could still continue to torture her if he wanted. Some part of Bra had to have wanted to kill the people around her. Sure, Babidi gave the order, but he later got preoccupied and she didn't even TRY to resist. I do not beleive she had no control of herself. It contradicts what we've seen. Also, I've been reading your posts and you seem really petty. You do care more about semantics, even after they showed yout he original creator of the term said it's changed. On top of that, Bra really does check most of the list. Why are you so hell bent on flooding people with long ass posts? And getting pettier and pettier about small details? It doesn't look smart, bro. It looks petty. oh, you mean control in the "not a berserker" type of control. I think bra was the only one who was like that, and thats because she was explicitly heinous pre majin anyway. we don't know anything about spopovitch. pre majin or anything really. >I do not beleive she had no control of herself. It contradicts what we've seen. Control being the word in contention here, she was more or less brain washed. dabura for example, when released of babadis control spat on him and took his kingdom back. we see in dbm canon that dabura had no control over himself on the sense that he could not serve his own interests. majin control was never about the slave having to be given orders to do everything. they have limited autonomy and usually follow orderes when given, and will sometimes over ride orders when it is in babadis best intentions. Dabura for example knew buu was dangerous, so he had to stop him "for babadis safety". bra sent him into space and left before he could relay orders to the contrary, this isn't defying him so much as she was too quick this instance. >Also, I've been reading your posts and you seem really petty. oh you mean by the part when I said you voted out of spite? poor wording on my part. to be frank your reasoning for voting that she is a mary sue was done seemingly out of emotion. this isn't an unreasonable response on your part and I apologize for the poor wording earlier. >You do care more about semantics, even after they showed yout he original creator of the term said it's changed. so this is more an issue of the word evolving, but not in the manner most people assume. The term mary sue involves a insert character as the prime defining trait, but they don't mention on any official site that it means anything but. with few exceptions. Words evolve, but the term gay which was used before took 400 years to do so. its been like 50 years tops. so I made a joke about taking 400 years before we evolve the term. Thats more or less sarcasm. Petty would be makiing a thread about the ring in the 23rd budokai and voting with sock puppet accounts in a failed attempt to defame someone. Some one tried that and they were mocked endlessly for it, and lost the little respect they had. >On top of that, Bra really does check most of the list. what list? I keep seeing people say this, and yet they don't point to a site that has a list of things that point these traits out, and the one they did had lists that contradict their data. so its ambiguous at best, and contrary to their belief at worst. I simply asked for a source, and something that can't be tampered with by people like you or I, and no one did. >Why are you so hell bent on flooding people with long ass posts? its not flooding so much as I'm detailing the answer. like If someone wanted to know what a character consisted of in terms of what they were ina anarrative sense, a protagonist, an antagonist, a hero, a anti-hero and such, there are ways to define such traits. I rattled off 6 sites that define a mary sue as a self insert character and went out of my way to find a site that had definitively set the definition as just OP or somethign because I wanted the term mary sue to fit, but I found nothing. At best, I found a site, 1 site that had contradictory data and it was fan edited for a while. and the check boxes were really lame when some people said stuff like "zenbuu gushed over her cool and awesome techniques!" he did no such thing. he scolded u16 as a whole for hiding their new techniques. in any case, I pretty much said as much I don't mind people calling her a mary sue anymore, because they are using an informal definition they decided on. its essentially colloquial usage. sure, its technically incorrect, but so what? it means what it means to you and thats all that counts. I get what you mean by it, and at the end of the day, its a matter of a rose smelling as sweet, even if by another name. also, 4:40 this guy also suggests mary sue is an over used term. it has lost any and all meaning since then. This makes much sense.
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Post by baconfam on Jun 6, 2021 0:10:54 GMT
Holy shit.
Lmao, yeah, I'm not even going to read that shit.
More walls of texts. I think this dude's got some kind of mental illness.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 6, 2021 0:13:44 GMT
Holy shit. Lmao, yeah, I'm not even going to read that shit. More walls of texts. I think this dude's got some kind of mental illness. holy shit thats actually not very long. its like the meme where some one goes "lol. too long didn't read". you have a very short attention span my dude. if you had read it, you'd note I agreed with some of your points. I mean, if you're not going to take this seriously, I can't imagine the thought process you use for other things. "had a baby. ugh. 18 years to raise this thing. see ya, thats way too much effort."
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2021 23:31:10 GMT
Holy shit. Lmao, yeah, I'm not even going to read that shit. More walls of texts. I think this dude's got some kind of mental illness. holy shit thats actually not very long. its like the meme where some one goes "lol. too long didn't read". you have a very short attention span my dude. if you had read it, you'd note I agreed with some of your points. I mean, if you're not going to take this seriously, I can't imagine the thought process you use for other things. "had a baby. ugh. 18 years to raise this thing. see ya, thats way too much effort." And I can imagine their hypothetical child could turn out worse than them if they did bother to raise the kid (or even have one smh).
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