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Post by Son Pan on May 20, 2021 5:10:53 GMT
We had a similar thread on Freeza and his family's representation in DBM. I thought that thread generated good discussion, while also serving as a place where we could all direct our criticisms or praises on how Freeza and his family were handled in DBM after years of small debates popping up every now and again on the Frost Demons. It is no secret that we have gone back and forth on how the LSS and Broly have been used in DBM. Rather than have multiple threads about this subject spring up or having it spill over in other threads I thought it was a good idea to have a Representation of Broly in DBM thread to post all our Broly usage related discussions here.
Obviously the biggest point of contention for the character is probably how U20 special handled how Broly won and went on to destroy the rest of U20. The invincibility attribute has arguments for and against it usage in DBM. When Invader Jim was on the message board he would bring up he thought being invincible helped LSS form stand out and live up the hype the original movie built up that he felt was kind of lost with how Broly was defeated. There was an argument made a while back that Broly being invincible meant the person or people fighting him would have to be creative in how they defeated him. I cannot remember who made that argument. I largely disagreed with it on the grounds that we have mostly just seen Broly get beaten by a large ki attack or pushing him into something to shock Broly out of the form so he can die in his regular form. The battles didn't end up all that different from normal DB fights to me.
Since Broly had a history with fans ranking him a bit higher on their strongest characters lists than what the movies showed we have seen some video game scenarios where Broly came to Earth and Goku and Vegeta had to fuse to Gogeta to defeat him. It made sense to have Broly be the one to fight Vegetto and be strong enough to force Vegetto to show off his SS2 and SS3 forms. I totally see why Salagir went that route and am even fine with there being a universe where Broly won and destroyed that universe. I generally liked how he reworked the first two Broly movies to fit into the DB timeline and in a way that made more sense for how Broly got defeated in DBM than he did in the movies. Goku charging a Spirit Bomb while Gohan distracted Broly to me is much better than movie 8 having a beaten down and low on ki Goku take ki from his similar beaten down and low on ki friends to surpass Broly and one punch him. I don't want this to come off as a thread for attacking DBM's ideas for Broly. I do think there were some genuinely good ideas that they did with Broly before DBS came out and completely overhauled the character and made him work. I still want to acknowledge the good things DBM did with Broly as well.
To me the biggest problem I had with DBM Broly is that the Legendary Super Saiyan form was how it was made invincible. I think it makes it hard to write around and well isn't really needed. Hear me out. The LSS form being a mutation that allows a Saiyan to rapidly increase their ki is really all that was needed for U20 Broly to have grown strong enough to challenge U16 Vegetto. We know in DB that the more ki a person has usually means the stronger their durability is. Just by having the almost unlimited ki the LSS is already going to have the ability to increase Broly's durability along with it. It would still be difficult to stop Broly, but still make it possible to kill him by either being stronger than him or creating an attack stronger than him. That might sound like it significantly lowers Broly's threat level, but I think for DBM it still keeps Broly a significant threat, but within reason. Depending on conditions and how certain universe played out Broly can either be easily dealt with by other villains or heroes or the dominant power that will destroy the universe. It would be more or less the same as the other villains won universes needed a certain event to play differently for them to win.
Vegetto and Broly fight wouldn't even be hampered by Broly not being invincible. It is totally in character for Vegetto to not finish Broly off right away. Vegetto entered the Multiverse Tournament in hopes of being challenged and pushed to his limits. It would make sense for Vegetto to let Broly power up as many times as he needed to until Vegetto finally got his fill of him. There would still be tension because the other characters would fear Broly had grown too strong for them to defeat anymore since he would be approaching Vegetto levels of power. U4 Buu/Zen Buu could still be interested in absorbing Broly for his ability to increase his ki with seemingly no limit. That is still a rare power he wouldn't have. The big space battle between Buu and U16 could still happen the same way with no changes. I think the U20 special where Broly wins could still happen without invincibility if things are played right. Without invincibility the characters trying to fight and overpower Broly wouldn't feel as odd because they can win by the normal means. It would just be difficult to do.
Anyone else want to share their thoughts on Broly's representation please post them here.
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Post by godjacob on May 20, 2021 5:54:57 GMT
DBM Broly is literally a caricature of the original Z Broly, and I didn't even think that was possible. His Legendary Super Saiyan form being invincible and just growing stronger endlessly with time takes the worst aspects of fan wank of the character and dials it up to eleven. There isn't even a consistency with this guy (Black holes and suns can totally kill him until we decide they don't) and it becomes a needless plot hurdle to actually write how he'd ever lose anything with how his form works. There isn't even a boastful line to blow out of proportion "my power keeps growing!" to justify its inclusion.
He is a non-character, he is just a persona of the most rabid Z Broly fanboys and why he'd totally be the strongest there ever was and has the highest power and the biggest dick etc. He is literally what happens when one focus on their fav character having the biggest power level around and literally nothing else.
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Post by Blaze on May 20, 2021 6:53:50 GMT
I think DBM Broly is fine as a character. That is to say, his character doesn't really matter as long as he's a vehicle for the other characters to react to him. I don't really care that he's a big, unintelligent brute. What I want to see is how they deal with Broly and the damage he causes, and how they work to eliminate the threat. Which I more or less got in the two Universe 20 specials, barring the very end. We saw everyone respond to his meteoric impact on the Earth, saw them fight together to push him into the sun, and even got to see Piccolo's quite innovative plan.
That being said, there are parts of him that I really don't like and think are confusing. Having constantly rising Ki in his unique transformation is fine, sure. Even then though, the story makes it seem like his Ki rises in response to stronger fighters. But I've never seen anything indicating that this is intentional. Which is a shame because it's much more interesting imo than him just constantly increasing power at a set rate.
The invulnerability though? That doesn't even make sense. It's been said that overly powerful attacks aren't enough to 'shock' Broly out of his transformation. But if a SSj3 Vegetto used a Final Dragon Flash on the Broly from the first movie special, is that really all that different from being thrown into a star?? In both cases they're completely overwhelmed by a much greater force. Is it the different kinds of sensation Broly feels from a star, like the heat and gravity, which aren't replicated by Ki attacks?
Because if it is, that should have been made far clearer and is something that they could've played around with. Say he's immune to like, kinetic/blunt ki damage or whatever. Then logically, they should try to invent attacks that work in different ways that might be able to actually kill him. Create an attack that burns as hot as the sun, or something that accelerates him to such a degree that it replicates gravity for him. Really, I think it's weird as that nobody wondered how the 'invincible Broly' could be killed by a star and still be considered invincible.
Using stellar objects to kill him is itself fine though. And I think Buu teleporting Broly to a supermassive black hole is itself a brilliant concept. But having Broly survive that, just because? It makes Broly's invulnerability even more confusing. Why did he survive that? And why in some universes but not others? It just really isn't clear. Also, having him explode(?) the black hole was also ridiculous.
King Broly in Universe 3 was awesome, I will say.
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Post by عمار on May 20, 2021 8:08:44 GMT
To be honest, I like the idea of "invincible Broly", because that's what make the transformation unique & dangerous. To me, it's not enough to call the LSSJ transformation...well "legendary" if it only made you increase your ki. Like all your opponent has to do is to train & be stronger than you & they can kill you. That's a bit boring to me. So that's why I like the concept. The only problem that I have with DBM Broly is that Salagir went too far with it. Broly cannot be hammed by attacks in his LSSJ? sure, I like that. At certain point magic & the likes of it won't work on him? acceptable, Vegetto did say that pure power can defeat anything. Not needing food or to breath air? Ummm...well, his ki grow continuously so, I guess food is not necessary. And saiyans can hold their breath for a very long time & since he's a special case he can hold it for much longer so it almost seems he doesn't need to breath air? Yeah, make a little sense, I can role with that. His power will grow to the point that even a black hole can't kill him? OKAY! STOP! THAT'S TOO MUCH!!! The problem is there's no line of how much Broly can be more "broken" and that's the problem. You must always draw the line. There's ALWAYS has to be way for the Z-fighter to "shock" Broly from LSSJ no matter how "invincible" he is. And speaking of shock, I still don't understand how do you make a legendary saiyan lose his LSSJ transformation! Like how exactly do you "shock" them? Does the attack has to be too strong for their "mind" that made them untransformed?
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Post by Solus on May 20, 2021 8:18:04 GMT
I've already written several paragraphs in several threads about Broly, but it's a good idea to collect everything in one single thread, so everybody else, who isn't interested, isn't bothered.
1. Movie overhauls: The specials were cool and made to fit into the U18 timeline, which was nice. They also seemed to be better thought out than the original movies in the way, the fighters tried to deal with Broly. Overall I liked, how Salagir made them compatible with the rest of his story. Of course, the specials were short and we didn't see much of Broly's power, but we've already seen the movies, so longer fight scenes would only drag it out unnecessarily.
2. Character: Although Salagir once criticized how Toei made Broly become a mindless Hulk in Movie 10 despite him having a brain in Movie 8, he himself did nothing to correct that mistake. At least not in the main time line. He has exactly 2 lines in all of his storyline (specials and tournament), that are not "Kakarotto!" I once wrote down an idea how you could make Broly's hatred towards Kakarotto way more believable and justified, but I guess as Broly's purpose for DBM was never to be a deep character, Salagir didn't bother to think about that, which is ok-ish. Giving evil characters depth usually serves to prepare a redemption arc and no one wants to see Broly redeemed, because redemption always comes with major debuffs. So in conclusion, I don't like the mindlessness of Broly in general, but it kinda isn't Salagir's fault, as he stayed true to the source material in this regard.
3. Design (visual): Salagir used the original design which looks cool but is utterly dumb. Don't missunderstand me: I really like how original Broly looks. I like his fashion style way more than DBS Broly's because DBS Broly has this standard Freezer army armour and that monster ear tied around his hips (to an extend imitating the original design) which makes him look like a random barbarian soldier. And that is perfectly fitting in this storyline, where nobody is aware of Broly's mutation and extraordinary-ness. But overall, if you want to present him as the legendary Supersayajin he is (or only legendary saiyan, as Salagir phrased it), then you need an outfit that is way more outstanding and kind of royal like the gold jewelry. But why the fuck is the jewelry, that's made of solid metal, not breaking but growing with him, when he transforms??? It looks cool, but makes absolutely no sense.
4. Powers: Not much to add here. I guess, the invulnerability part has its merrits, but leads to some heavy explaining, which did always happen in comments and interviews and still is not clear. There are no fixed rules for what works on him, albeit Salagir tried to establish some that he contradicted on the next page. Also the heros still attacking Broly with melee attacks is perfectly fine for me, since Broly himself never stated that he is invincible and this ability seems to be quite unique. So the heros had to figure it out via trial and error. Maybe a few thoughts on the transformation itself: I don't like how the LSSJ is supposed to die while transformed and cannot drop the transformation on his own (which in itself is a good concept) but then conveniently always drops out of it after battles, so that he can go on living for many years until his next battle. I guess, this problem arised only after Broly's backstory for DBM was already established and U03 wasn't written or even thought about yet. So Salagir wrote himself into a corner and had to do a lot of asspulls to justify the saiyans surviving Cooler and Cold and still having Broly to live for several years. From my own experience I can tell, that it's hard to set hard rules and then incorporate so many details later on. So maybe Salagir could have come to a better solution, if he knew everything beforehand that he would write in the course of over ten years.
5. Other universes: At this point in time, we can only really talk about U03, since we know nothing about U13's encounter with Broly. But in U03 his story is totally different from the main timeline and Bardock acknowledged Broly's potential and made good use of it. I like it how an uncontrolled and uninfluenced Broly has ambitions of his own and aims to be king, totally overpowers every other contestant and so on. That's a pretty cool iteration of him. The U03 armour also looks cool on him (although not the trousers and boots in my opinion) and I like, that he got a different design from the original one.
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Post by Lurking on May 20, 2021 21:29:31 GMT
Remember how Cell could regenerate from damn near anything and Buu could restore himself from mist? As absurd as it was, they could still be worn down, exhausted, and at the end of the day it was simply a way to magnify their endurance.
Broly doesn't have a multiplier. He's just "maximum" because wank. He also can't be exhausted, rather, he becomes infinitely more powerful no matter what occurs, how much stronger dictated solely by 'plot'. He also becomes immune to magic, gravity, heat, suffocation, and mental attacks. This invalidates any puzzle/creative solution to his fights because there's nothing left to do but throw a giant attack in his face. Just skim the comic. Every single fight was either 'shocking' him with a colossal attack(so the same general ending to his fights as buu/cell), dropping his ass into the sun/blackhole which serves the same purpose(hi cooler), and carbonite which converts him on a molecular level. And even that last one is kind of an ass pull, because he's immune to magic and external forces after a certain point, so why would something like nanobots work. I guess he was just conveniently weak enough for it at the time.
Why is he 'invincible' anyway? He followed the exact same movie formula as the others. Villain is basically invulnerable to the hero's attacks, sweeps the entire team, hero powers up immensely at the end and one shots him. Super 13, Cooler, Bojack, this wasn't unique to roid rage, nor did his rag doll body spazzing out at the end of the first movie imply he couldn't feel pain.
He's also dreadfully boring, taking on his movie 2 personality... Or lack thereof. He doesn't even function as a plot device, since all of his fights could be tossed out and things would still be exactly the same, sans Bra drama that went totally ignored anyway. Jacob nailed it earlier, Broly is what you get when a 12 year old starts arguing about how his action figure can't lose because he's "the best."
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Post by Axalon on May 22, 2021 18:18:59 GMT
The main issue with Broly, aside from what others have said, is that the promise was never lived up to.
Supposedly the thing with Broly was that it was to encourage unique ways of thinking instead of the Team Four Star tactic of "Punch him really, really hard". This would be impossible against Broly if he's invincible, so you had to think "outside the box".
Unfortunately, "outside the box" ended up being either:
1. Carbonite 2. Copy-pasting the movies by throwing him into a sun 3. Throwing him into a black hole except it doesn't work because reasons
Every time he's shown up it just feels like a wank-fest and not an opportunity to overcome the obstacle that is Broly.
Combine that with the loss of his Movie 1 personality in favor of the Literally Dumber Movie 2 personality, on top of the "shock" required to Un-Invincible him being entirely up to plot and you have a recipe for diaster.
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Post by Son Pan on May 26, 2021 19:09:20 GMT
The main issue with Broly, aside from what others have said, is that the promise was never lived up to. Supposedly the thing with Broly was that it was to encourage unique ways of thinking instead of the Team Four Star tactic of "Punch him really, really hard". This would be impossible against Broly if he's invincible, so you had to think "outside the box". Unfortunately, "outside the box" ended up being either: 1. Carbonite 2. Copy-pasting the movies by throwing him into a sun 3. Throwing him into a black hole except it doesn't work because reasons Every time he's shown up it just feels like a wank-fest and not an opportunity to overcome the obstacle that is Broly. Combine that with the loss of his Movie 1 personality in favor of the Literally Dumber Movie 2 personality, on top of the "shock" required to Un-Invincible him being entirely up to plot and you have a recipe for diaster. Well said. The idea of invincibility is better than the reality of it. That is too hard to write around. Even American comics do not play that rule straight with superheroes and super villains and why characters who are in their weight class can at least harm them. With Broly the promise that invincible ability would force the characters to come up with new ways to beat him was too hard to live up to. Maybe the U20 special sort of hand one with everyone being absorbed by Good Buu to win, but none of the magically abilities Buu had were used and the defeat was sort of the same as the other two defeats they threw Broly at something and hoped it killed him. The idea Legendary Super Saiyan needs to be invincible to make it special never really made sense to me. It is one of those ideas that sounds cool until people sit down and discuss how to implement it. The best way to distinguish it from the other forms is to focus on accelerating increase in power ability. That makes it harder to beat. Sure someone currently stronger than LSS can kill them, but that is still a challenge to do in the middle of a battle where they have to worry about mustering the power for an attack that can do that before LSS eclipses their power. Personality wise is tricky. Most people just remember Broly as the berserker. It’s been so long since I have seen movie 8 I couldn’t tell you how it was different from Movie 10 beyond Broly saying he was the devil and shit talking. I suppose the hatred for Goku could have been removed and nothing would be changed radically. LSS state gives Broly a inclination for destruction anyway. Broly could easily developed a hatred for Goku after his first defeat when he threw a Spirit Bomb at him. Maybe more could have been done with Broly’s personality out of the state I suppose. U18 Broly could have been peaceful having grown up in a peaceful little empire his dad made for them and being afraid of turning into LSS since it turns him berserk. While in U3 since Broly grew up in Saiyan society he could be battle loving warrior who desires to be the strongest. Not a whole lot I can think of to distinguish personality in DBM. Someone else could think of different personalities based on different circumstances in the universes.
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Post by Axalon on May 28, 2021 14:15:23 GMT
The main issue with Broly, aside from what others have said, is that the promise was never lived up to. Supposedly the thing with Broly was that it was to encourage unique ways of thinking instead of the Team Four Star tactic of "Punch him really, really hard". This would be impossible against Broly if he's invincible, so you had to think "outside the box". Unfortunately, "outside the box" ended up being either: 1. Carbonite 2. Copy-pasting the movies by throwing him into a sun 3. Throwing him into a black hole except it doesn't work because reasons Every time he's shown up it just feels like a wank-fest and not an opportunity to overcome the obstacle that is Broly. Combine that with the loss of his Movie 1 personality in favor of the Literally Dumber Movie 2 personality, on top of the "shock" required to Un-Invincible him being entirely up to plot and you have a recipe for diaster. Well said. The idea of invincibility is better than the reality of it. That is too hard to write around. Even American comics do not play that rule straight with superheroes and super villains and why characters who are in their weight class can at least harm them. With Broly the promise that invincible ability would force the characters to come up with new ways to beat him was too hard to live up to. Maybe the U20 special sort of hand one with everyone being absorbed by Good Buu to win, but none of the magically abilities Buu had were used and the defeat was sort of the same as the other two defeats they threw Broly at something and hoped it killed him. The idea Legendary Super Saiyan needs to be invincible to make it special never really made sense to me. It is one of those ideas that sounds cool until people sit down and discuss how to implement it. The best way to distinguish it from the other forms is to focus on accelerating increase in power ability. That makes it harder to beat. Sure someone currently stronger than LSS can kill them, but that is still a challenge to do in the middle of a battle where they have to worry about mustering the power for an attack that can do that before LSS eclipses their power. Personality wise is tricky. Most people just remember Broly as the berserker. It’s been so long since I have seen movie 8 I couldn’t tell you how it was different from Movie 10 beyond Broly saying he was the devil and shit talking. I suppose the hatred for Goku could have been removed and nothing would be changed radically. LSS state gives Broly a inclination for destruction anyway. Broly could easily developed a hatred for Goku after his first defeat when he threw a Spirit Bomb at him. Maybe more could have been done with Broly’s personality out of the state I suppose. U18 Broly could have been peaceful having grown up in a peaceful little empire his dad made for them and being afraid of turning into LSS since it turns him berserk. While in U3 since Broly grew up in Saiyan society he could be battle loving warrior who desires to be the strongest. Not a whole lot I can think of to distinguish personality in DBM. Someone else could think of different personalities based on different circumstances in the universes. Indeed, DBS Broly used the "rapidly increasing power" aspect of his character to great effect and surprise, surprise it's considered the high point of DBS. (The splendid animation did it no small favors either). Having a stronger power level than someone else is basically invincibility anyway, as has been seen in numerous fights by now, no matter if it was DBZ, DBS, or DBM. Take for instance when Bra took a Special Beam Cannon to the back of the head and the most it made her do was flinch. Her power level is just so much larger than Piccolo's that she effectively IS invincible to anything he can do to her. In fact, I'd argue the only reason she even put up that barrier against this Piccolo barrage was so she could have literal Plot Armor for Cell's SBC that he's about to fire. Broly could have used this exact same principle of rapid power gains without actually being invincible and nothing would've been lost. You could still have U13 Vegeta trick him into carbonite because he can't physically beat him. You could have Broly either tank Ghost Vegeta's kienzans against Gast --OR-- get sliced to pieces and still had the scenario play out where Gast pops up behind Raichi at the last second and kill him because he's not paying good enough attention/chalk it up to Gast's magic. Invincibility here seems to be used purely to make sure Broly either can't lose at all, or survives insane things purely because of fanboyism, since just having a big enough power level would've achieved mostly the exact same results. In cases where the opponent could actually do some weird things to him, such as U20 Buu, he just....doesn't do them for some inexplicable reason. He doesn't turn Broly into candy. He doesn't use the Mafuba on him. He suicides himself for some reason instead of leaving behind pieces to regenerate from. It reeks of Idiot Ball and Plot Armor, which are some of the hallmarks of DBM's worst fights.
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Post by Saudade on May 28, 2021 17:11:58 GMT
Well said. The idea of invincibility is better than the reality of it. That is too hard to write around. Even American comics do not play that rule straight with superheroes and super villains and why characters who are in their weight class can at least harm them. With Broly the promise that invincible ability would force the characters to come up with new ways to beat him was too hard to live up to. Maybe the U20 special sort of hand one with everyone being absorbed by Good Buu to win, but none of the magically abilities Buu had were used and the defeat was sort of the same as the other two defeats they threw Broly at something and hoped it killed him. The idea Legendary Super Saiyan needs to be invincible to make it special never really made sense to me. It is one of those ideas that sounds cool until people sit down and discuss how to implement it. The best way to distinguish it from the other forms is to focus on accelerating increase in power ability. That makes it harder to beat. Sure someone currently stronger than LSS can kill them, but that is still a challenge to do in the middle of a battle where they have to worry about mustering the power for an attack that can do that before LSS eclipses their power. Personality wise is tricky. Most people just remember Broly as the berserker. It’s been so long since I have seen movie 8 I couldn’t tell you how it was different from Movie 10 beyond Broly saying he was the devil and shit talking. I suppose the hatred for Goku could have been removed and nothing would be changed radically. LSS state gives Broly a inclination for destruction anyway. Broly could easily developed a hatred for Goku after his first defeat when he threw a Spirit Bomb at him. Maybe more could have been done with Broly’s personality out of the state I suppose. U18 Broly could have been peaceful having grown up in a peaceful little empire his dad made for them and being afraid of turning into LSS since it turns him berserk. While in U3 since Broly grew up in Saiyan society he could be battle loving warrior who desires to be the strongest. Not a whole lot I can think of to distinguish personality in DBM. Someone else could think of different personalities based on different circumstances in the universes. Indeed, DBS Broly used the "rapidly increasing power" aspect of his character to great effect and surprise, surprise it's considered the high point of DBS. (The splendid animation did it no small favors either). Having a stronger power level than someone else is basically invincibility anyway, as has been seen in numerous fights by now, no matter if it was DBZ, DBS, or DBM. Take for instance when Bra took a Special Beam Cannon to the back of the head and the most it made her do was flinch. Her power level is just so much larger than Piccolo's that she effectively IS invincible to anything he can do to her. In fact, I'd argue the only reason she even put up that barrier against this Piccolo barrage was so she could have literal Plot Armor for Cell's SBC that he's about to fire. Broly could have used this exact same principle of rapid power gains without actually being invincible and nothing would've been lost. You could still have U13 Vegeta trick him into carbonite because he can't physically beat him. You could have Broly either tank Ghost Vegeta's kienzans against Gast --OR-- get sliced to pieces and still had the scenario play out where Gast pops up behind Raichi at the last second and kill him because he's not paying good enough attention/chalk it up to Gast's magic. Invincibility here seems to be used purely to make sure Broly either can't lose at all, or survives insane things purely because of fanboyism, since just having a big enough power level would've achieved mostly the exact same results. In cases where the opponent could actually do some weird things to him, such as U20 Buu, he just....doesn't do them for some inexplicable reason. He doesn't turn Broly into candy. He doesn't use the Mafuba on him. He suicides himself for some reason instead of leaving behind pieces to regenerate from. It reeks of Idiot Ball and Plot Armor, which are some of the hallmarks of DBM's worst fights. It could all be forgotten, or handwaved at least if the author didn't publicized his work on being "serious, balanced and no ass-pulls in terms of power level", but it is, or was advertised as that, so Everytime it deviates into complete stupidity by the characters it's bad. Toryiama didn't use IT in a fight because it would open a Pandora box of issues, and he didn't bother to explain it either, it was simply not fit for battles, and that goes for a whole lot of things in DB, toryiama simply didn't bother and that's why it's not used. DBS explains Broly in a simple way, he's learning and growing stronger, he's not a common Sayajin, and it works well enough for the story, meanwhile DBM has the characters act extremely smart (using buu) and then extremely dumb, by just punching a guy that is impossible to beat. Also, Broly in DBM is a gag character, it could be Mary Sue( or Bra) and the end result would be the same, but at least it would get a laugh from me.
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Post by godjacob on May 28, 2021 17:38:16 GMT
I feel if you actually need to say "this character is invincible!" and you play that up as 100% serious for the sake of drama, than it is a sign of a lack of creativity. It's the same issue Garlic Jr. had when you made him an immortal, no it didn't lead to creative means to get around his immortality, it just made the fights end the same goddamn way much like how DBM Broly fights seem to.
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Post by Blaze on May 30, 2021 3:04:39 GMT
Broly could have used this exact same principle of rapid power gains without actually being invincible and nothing would've been lost. Not defending Broly's invincibility as it's portrayed in the comic, but nah. If Broly's invincibility was simply a result of being so much stronger than anyone, you would need to question why he isn't completely one-shotting characters. Like Majin Bra was able to do to Piccolo. If we want to do something with Broly's invincibility (I think resilience would be a better way to do it though), it should significantly outpace his attacks. Have him be a tank that can't put out as much damage as he can take.
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Post by godjacob on May 30, 2021 17:20:51 GMT
I have a question. All the other choices with Broly (Limitless growing power, literal invincibility etc.) in this package are terrible but I can at least understand from a fanservice perspective of a guy who likes the character and wants to wank him to be "the strongest the coolest there is!" But for the life of me I don't get why Salagir decided to give this guy the movie 2 personality (If you can call it that) as opposed to the movie 1 personality where, well, least he could speak coherently at times.
If you say "well it is faithful" to how that character "developed" Salagir had this guy stuck in his Ljss form in ice while knocked out, so don't tell me he cares about being accurate to the character now.
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Post by Axalon on May 30, 2021 17:49:21 GMT
Broly could have used this exact same principle of rapid power gains without actually being invincible and nothing would've been lost. Not defending Broly's invincibility as it's portrayed in the comic, but nah. If Broly's invincibility was simply a result of being so much stronger than anyone, you would need to question why he isn't completely one-shotting characters. Like Majin Bra was able to do to Piccolo. If we want to do something with Broly's invincibility (I think resilience would be a better way to do it though), it should significantly outpace his attacks. Have him be a tank that can't put out as much damage as he can take. Make him sadistic. Why isn't he one-shotting characters? He's too busy calling himself the Devil and talking about putting other characters in coffins. Put him closer to his Movie 1 personality and now he's not one-shotting them, he's pulling wings off a fly for fun.
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Post by Blaze on May 31, 2021 4:34:25 GMT
Not defending Broly's invincibility as it's portrayed in the comic, but nah. If Broly's invincibility was simply a result of being so much stronger than anyone, you would need to question why he isn't completely one-shotting characters. Like Majin Bra was able to do to Piccolo. If we want to do something with Broly's invincibility (I think resilience would be a better way to do it though), it should significantly outpace his attacks. Have him be a tank that can't put out as much damage as he can take. Make him sadistic. Why isn't he one-shotting characters? He's too busy calling himself the Devil and talking about putting other characters in coffins. Put him closer to his Movie 1 personality and now he's not one-shotting them, he's pulling wings off a fly for fun. That doesn't work when you have characters who are actually close to Broly in power. I think it's interesting to have a character that has incredible durability, even within the context of dragon ball. It's part of what made Vegeta in his first appearance so cool. He just would not go down.
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Post by godjacob on May 31, 2021 5:35:44 GMT
Make him sadistic. Why isn't he one-shotting characters? He's too busy calling himself the Devil and talking about putting other characters in coffins. Put him closer to his Movie 1 personality and now he's not one-shotting them, he's pulling wings off a fly for fun. That doesn't work when you have characters who are actually close to Broly in power. I think it's interesting to have a character that has incredible durability, even within the context of dragon ball. It's part of what made Vegeta in his first appearance so cool. He just would not go down. Difference between Saiyan Saga Vegeta and DBM Broly is while both take a lot of hits, Vegeta gradually showed injuries as the fight dragged on. Every action taken against him, every big blow had a gradual impact that led to his defeat. Vegeta had an undying will and endurance for days, but together the Z-Fighters were able to overcome him all the same and the signs of damage Vegeta displayed showed legit progress along the way. That things like the Kamehameha x4 and Spirit Bomb were not in vein even if they didn't finish him. It's far less exciting when that foe shows no signs of damage no matter what is done to him, which is the core issue with DBM Broly. Nothing is of consequence in a fight against him except for the very last move. Even characters who go "lol regen" like Cell and Buu least show previous moves did damage, even if they heal from it. Broly you don't even get that.
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Post by Blaze on May 31, 2021 7:10:39 GMT
That doesn't work when you have characters who are actually close to Broly in power. I think it's interesting to have a character that has incredible durability, even within the context of dragon ball. It's part of what made Vegeta in his first appearance so cool. He just would not go down. Difference between Saiyan Saga Vegeta and DBM Broly is while both take a lot of hits, Vegeta gradually showed injuries as the fight dragged on. Every action taken against him, every big blow had a gradual impact that led to his defeat. Vegeta had an undying will and endurance for days, but together the Z-Fighters were able to overcome him all the same and the signs of damage Vegeta displayed showed legit progress along the way. That things like the Kamehameha x4 and Spirit Bomb were not in vein even if they didn't finish him. It's far less exciting when that foe shows no signs of damage no matter what is done to him, which is the core issue with DBM Broly. Nothing is of consequence in a fight against him except for the very last move. Even characters who go "lol regen" like Cell and Buu least show previous moves did damage, even if they heal from it. Broly you don't even get that. I'm not arguing in support of "Broly should be invincible" like DBM has him. I'm saying that you can't get the same sort of situations with Broly if his power was just constantly increasing. You can get them if Broly's transformation just makes him very very durable. Hell, Broly looked like he was taking damage in the fight against Vegetto anyway. So yeah, what I'm saying is just having Broly constantly getting stronger does lose something compared to him being invincible. But you could keep that stuff and have it make sense if he was just extremely durable. Alternatively you could explain his 'pseudo-invincibility' in a way that makes sense and have the characters react to that. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread.
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Post by godjacob on May 31, 2021 16:53:52 GMT
Difference between Saiyan Saga Vegeta and DBM Broly is while both take a lot of hits, Vegeta gradually showed injuries as the fight dragged on. Every action taken against him, every big blow had a gradual impact that led to his defeat. Vegeta had an undying will and endurance for days, but together the Z-Fighters were able to overcome him all the same and the signs of damage Vegeta displayed showed legit progress along the way. That things like the Kamehameha x4 and Spirit Bomb were not in vein even if they didn't finish him. It's far less exciting when that foe shows no signs of damage no matter what is done to him, which is the core issue with DBM Broly. Nothing is of consequence in a fight against him except for the very last move. Even characters who go "lol regen" like Cell and Buu least show previous moves did damage, even if they heal from it. Broly you don't even get that. I'm not arguing in support of "Broly should be invincible" like DBM has him. I'm saying that you can't get the same sort of situations with Broly if his power was just constantly increasing. You can get them if Broly's transformation just makes him very very durable. Hell, Broly looked like he was taking damage in the fight against Vegetto anyway. So yeah, what I'm saying is just having Broly constantly getting stronger does lose something compared to him being invincible. But you could keep that stuff and have it make sense if he was just extremely durable. Alternatively you could explain his 'pseudo-invincibility' in a way that makes sense and have the characters react to that. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread. Except I feel you could easily, because in DB unless you are a specialized fighter like Burter stats correlate with power in every sense. Strength, speed, durability etc. All of these go up the stronger you are so Broly's power increasing constantly means he becomes harder to take down as his endurance and durability rises with his power. While I personally don't like the "lol power rises bro" aspect of Broly and the misconception of the origin; but it is a core aspect of the perception of the character (And I do appreciate in DBS Broly we see there is a limit to this when Gogeta entered the picture). I just feel you can't really replace that, and if I had to choose between his power rising or being invincible I'll pick the latter.
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Post by Axalon on May 31, 2021 17:26:33 GMT
Difference between Saiyan Saga Vegeta and DBM Broly is while both take a lot of hits, Vegeta gradually showed injuries as the fight dragged on. Every action taken against him, every big blow had a gradual impact that led to his defeat. Vegeta had an undying will and endurance for days, but together the Z-Fighters were able to overcome him all the same and the signs of damage Vegeta displayed showed legit progress along the way. That things like the Kamehameha x4 and Spirit Bomb were not in vein even if they didn't finish him. It's far less exciting when that foe shows no signs of damage no matter what is done to him, which is the core issue with DBM Broly. Nothing is of consequence in a fight against him except for the very last move. Even characters who go "lol regen" like Cell and Buu least show previous moves did damage, even if they heal from it. Broly you don't even get that. I'm not arguing in support of "Broly should be invincible" like DBM has him. I'm saying that you can't get the same sort of situations with Broly if his power was just constantly increasing. You can get them if Broly's transformation just makes him very very durable. Hell, Broly looked like he was taking damage in the fight against Vegetto anyway. So yeah, what I'm saying is just having Broly constantly getting stronger does lose something compared to him being invincible. But you could keep that stuff and have it make sense if he was just extremely durable. Alternatively you could explain his 'pseudo-invincibility' in a way that makes sense and have the characters react to that. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread. Or dial back the "power increasing" aspect. Stop doubling his power every other minute and now he can have rising power without him going from "weaker than U20 Buu" to "TROLOLOLOL stronger than a black hole".
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Post by Blaze on Jun 1, 2021 8:28:11 GMT
Except I feel you could easily, because in DB unless you are a specialized fighter like Burter stats correlate with power in every sense. Strength, speed, durability etc. All of these go up the stronger you are so Broly's power increasing constantly means he becomes harder to take down as his endurance and durability rises with his power. While I personally don't like the "lol power rises bro" aspect of Broly and the misconception of the origin; but it is a core aspect of the perception of the character (And I do appreciate in DBS Broly we see there is a limit to this when Gogeta entered the picture). I just feel you can't really replace that, and if I had to choose between his power rising or being invincible I'll pick the latter. Iirc, Goku's speed outpaced his general power level during the Ginyu stuff. But... not important. Broly's power increasing would mean it would become harder to beat him as he gets stronger and consequently more durable to the attacks that were previously on his level, yeah. But he doesn't usually seem to increase in power quickly enough for that to be too much of a thing. Vegetto's Big Bang Attack could've ended Broly if it was just that. Or his Final Dragon Flash. Having Broly be so durable that he's practically invincible to anything not far far beyond him, like a star or black hole, works just as good as saying that he's invincible. I'm saying that you could have DBM use that explanation, and nothing would be lost. Stuff would be lost (whether you like that stuff or not) if Broly only had constantly rising power. Also I'm not sure I was clear. When I was saying 'just' I meant 'just durable and not invincible', not 'just durable and not with constantly rising power'.
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