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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Jan 7, 2022 18:47:17 GMT
Been lots of talk in the main current chapter about this and I know DBM uses a tier system but things seemed to have changed a bit over the years. So power wise, how strong do you all think U4 Buu actually is? His crazy op magic aside, does everyone for the most part think he’s between SSJ1/SSJ2 Vegetto tier or could he actually match the fusion in strength?
Sorta hard to believe he could, even after all of his absorptions over the years. Unless he got ahold of some real power houses we don’t know about. Still didn't think he could close the gap and be on SSJ2 Vegettos level but I also never thought that SSJ3 Vegetto would ever be needed to put SSJ2 Bra down until that happened. So unless that was just rule of cool for the arts sake I’m not so sure where he’s at anymore.
Guess it also depends on how serious Buu might have been during his fight with the buffed up U18 Gotenks who seemed to be around SSJ1 Vegetto level if I remember hearing right. Vegetto was sweating a little bit watching that fight to be fair, while Buu honestly looked like he wasn’t trying at all. I suppose Buu could have also trained over the years but that’s still quite a gap to close. But I could see DBM just fudging his strength up to make him a match for Vegetto with how lax the power scaling seems to be lately, though I think SSJ2 should still be able to handle him.
Though i’m also in the camp thinking that SSJ1 Vegetto should be able to handle SSJ2 Bra without too hard of an effort and don’t think she’d stand much of a chance against a serious Zen Buu. So him being at least SSJ1 Vegetto level seems likely, if not a bit stronger. Would he need to be stronger or would his added op magic close the gap enough between Vegetto and himself if they threw down?
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Post by godjacob on Jan 7, 2022 20:19:56 GMT
I think it's been clear since the start Zen Buu is portrayed as one of the big power houses in DBM. The fight with XXI wouldn't work if Zen Buu turned out to be more fluff than substance. I don't think he is say as physically strong as Vegito at his best, but he is comparable least to SSJ2 and the assorted abilities he has added to his collective likely makes up any weaknesses in raw power.
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Post by عمار on Jan 7, 2022 20:40:02 GMT
Well, Salagir said that Vegetto is the strongest while he's in SSJ3: Q. Is Vegetto still the strongest in-term of raw power?
Salagir: Yes. (28:28 min - part 2) But he also said this: Q. Zen Buu full power is at the level of Vegetto SSJ2 in brute force?
Salagir: No, Zen Buu is stronger than everyone. Zen Buu is...too much. (1:49:29 min) So, Maybe he's between Vegetto's SSJ2 & SSJ3?
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Post by maximusthered2431 on Jan 7, 2022 22:34:59 GMT
Well, Salagir said that Vegetto is the strongest while he's in SSJ3: Q. Is Vegetto still the strongest in-term of raw power?
Salagir: Yes. (28:28 min - part 2) But he also said this: Q. Zen Buu full power is at the level of Vegetto SSJ2 in brute force?
Salagir: No, Zen Buu is stronger than everyone. Zen Buu is...too much. (1:49:29 min) So, Maybe he's between Vegetto's SSJ2 & SSJ3? This is my interpretation. Stronger than Vegetto SSJ2 but weaker than Vegetto SSJ3. However with how hard it is to kill Buu I bet SSJ3 wouldn't last long enough. So while technical weaker...Zen Buu would probably win a serious fight.
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Post by Skarr on Jan 8, 2022 13:57:00 GMT
I think Zen Buu was always intended to be between SSJ2 and SSJ3. In the fight against Broly, Zen Buu was confidant he could step in if SSJ2 Vegetto lost. If they were to fight, Vegetto would likely run out of energy before being able to wipe out all of Buu.
I'm not sure how Buu got to that level of power because most of the universe is weaker than a Freeza elite so absorptions wouldn't be enough. I think he also trained and absorption could've also added to his overall potential.
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Post by godjacob on Jan 8, 2022 19:06:55 GMT
I think Zen Buu was always intended to be between SSJ2 and SSJ3. In the fight against Broly, Zen Buu was confidant he could step in if SSJ2 Vegetto lost. If they were to fight, Vegetto would likely run out of energy before being able to wipe out all of Buu. I'm not sure how Buu got to that level of power because most of the universe is weaker than a Freeza elite so absorptions wouldn't be enough. I think he also trained and absorption could've also added to his overall potential. The in-universe reason is that the universe is big and Zen Buu could've absorbed a lot of people on top of fight others to get so strong. The real reason is Zen Buu is a goddamn Mary Sue and can be wanked to be as strong as Salagir likes him to be. No recent developments have not changed my stance on that.
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Jan 8, 2022 20:33:56 GMT
Salagir seems to just blurt out random answers when asked about his top tier power characters anymore, I know he should obviously be the best source when it comes down to where these characters stand and also where these top tier titans are strength wise when they throw down with each other.
He is the law after all in this comic but he’s a bit random sometimes anymore with his answers now a days, so hard to take him serious when trying to nitpick and find out what’s up with these fighters tier placement.
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Post by Skarr on Jan 8, 2022 22:34:45 GMT
The in-universe reason is that the universe is big and Zen Buu could've absorbed a lot of people on top of fight others to get so strong. The real reason is Zen Buu is a goddamn Mary Sue and can be wanked to be as strong as Salagir likes him to be. No recent developments have not changed my stance on that. I suppose the character isn't for everyone. I've always like alternate universes in like DC and Marvel where a villain wins and seeing what they do after. Some have great potential but can't be allowed to get that far in the main continuity or the heroes lose. Buu had the most potential out of any DB villain with all his abilities so I liked seeing a more powerful version after he won in his universe. It was his first time having the freedom to do more than his original purpose when he was created. Salagir seems to just blurt out random bs when asked about his top tier power characters anymore, Though I know he should be the best source when it comes down to where they stand and also where these top tier titans are strength wise when they throw down with each other. To be fair, Twitch doesn't offer the chance for detailed answers due to how many questions are being asked. People can email him or ask questions on the DBM discord since he can go into more detail on there.
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Post by godjacob on Jan 8, 2022 23:07:17 GMT
The in-universe reason is that the universe is big and Zen Buu could've absorbed a lot of people on top of fight others to get so strong. The real reason is Zen Buu is a goddamn Mary Sue and can be wanked to be as strong as Salagir likes him to be. No recent developments have not changed my stance on that. I suppose the character isn't for everyone. I've always like alternate universes in like DC and Marvel where a villain wins and seeing what they do after. Some have great potential but can't be allowed to get that far in the main continuity or the heroes lose. Buu had the most potential out of any DB villain with all his abilities so I liked seeing a more powerful version after he won in his universe. It was his first time having the freedom to do more than his original purpose when he was created. Salagir seems to just blurt out random bs when asked about his top tier power characters anymore, Though I know he should be the best source when it comes down to where they stand and also where these top tier titans are strength wise when they throw down with each other. To be fair, Twitch doesn't offer the chance for detailed answers due to how many questions are being asked. People can email him or ask questions on the DBM discord since he can go into more detail on there. My issue with Zen Buu isn't a villain winning or him being strong, the entire point of an AU is to see something you wouldn't with the main timeline and Buu's power makes the "most" sense out of the DBM Villains. Least on a concept level. My issue with Zen Buu is his abilities have shifted from logical extensions of himself and who he absorbed into literal reality warping powers without rhyme or reason. How much the plot seems to favor him compared to other characters and just in general becoming less interesting as time has gone on (Then again I dislike "smart" Buu in general so that is less a DBM complaint and more a Buutenks/Buuhan complaint).
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Post by Skarr on Jan 8, 2022 23:44:07 GMT
My issue with Zen Buu is his abilities have shifted from logical extensions of himself and who he absorbed into literal reality warping powers without rhyme or reason. How much the plot seems to favor him compared to other characters and just in general becoming less interesting as time has gone on (Then again I dislike "smart" Buu in general so that is less a DBM complaint and more a Buutenks/Buuhan complaint). That's fair but I didn't really see it that way. He already had basic reality warping powers since he can turn people into food or materialize matter in the Buu saga. The Dragonballs were created by the Nameks so I thought it made sense that the strongest magical entity in the series could replicate their power. I think everything he's done so far has been based on existing magic from the original. Absorbing the strongest and smartest people in universe just allowed him to use the same power in more ways.
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Post by godjacob on Jan 9, 2022 0:13:14 GMT
My issue with Zen Buu is his abilities have shifted from logical extensions of himself and who he absorbed into literal reality warping powers without rhyme or reason. How much the plot seems to favor him compared to other characters and just in general becoming less interesting as time has gone on (Then again I dislike "smart" Buu in general so that is less a DBM complaint and more a Buutenks/Buuhan complaint). That's fair but I didn't really see it that way. He already had basic reality warping powers since he can turn people into food or materialize matter in the Buu saga. The Dragonballs were created by the Nameks so I thought it made sense that the strongest magical entity in the series could replicate their power. I think everything he's done so far has been based on existing magic from the original. Absorbing the strongest and smartest people in universe just allowed him to use the same power in more ways. Biggg difference between what a Namekian can do, and what an Eternal Dragon could do. If what they could do were comparable to that degree, then there wouldn't even need to be dragon balls and Piccolo could make wishes on his own. There's based on existing magic and then "stretch it past any direct comparison to something dumb" which again is only one of my problems with Zen Buu.
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Post by Skarr on Jan 9, 2022 0:39:29 GMT
Biggg difference between what a Namekian can do, and what an Eternal Dragon could do. If what they could do were comparable to that degree, then there wouldn't even need to be dragon balls and Piccolo could make wishes on his own. There's based on existing magic and then "stretch it past any direct comparison to something dumb" which again is only one of my problems with Zen Buu. I meant the Nameks created them so I think it's possible a more powerful magic user could replicate the magic of the dragons themselves. He's stronger than the dragons now but I'm not sure what he's done so far that's stretching it past any direct comparison. I think it's still basic reality warping.
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Post by godjacob on Jan 9, 2022 0:55:25 GMT
Biggg difference between what a Namekian can do, and what an Eternal Dragon could do. If what they could do were comparable to that degree, then there wouldn't even need to be dragon balls and Piccolo could make wishes on his own. There's based on existing magic and then "stretch it past any direct comparison to something dumb" which again is only one of my problems with Zen Buu. I meant the Nameks created them so I think it's possible a more powerful magic user could replicate the magic of the dragons themselves. He's stronger than the dragons now but I'm not sure what he's done so far that's stretching it past any direct comparison. I think it's still basic reality warping. I mean if you can provide a scan of a magic user in DB that can mass resurrect the dead a lah the Eternal Dragon I might be inclined to agree with you. As it stands just seems like an out there ability even given what Buu could do in canon. And again, it is one aspect of Zen Buu that bugs me. How you take it well that's up to you really.
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Post by Skarr on Jan 9, 2022 2:40:14 GMT
I mean if you can provide a scan of a magic user in DB that can mass resurrect the dead a lah the Eternal Dragon I might be inclined to agree with you. As it stands just seems like an out there ability even given what Buu could do in canon. And again, it is one aspect of Zen Buu that bugs me. How you take it well that's up to you really. Oh ok I thought you were referring to something else. I meant the magic he used was based on existing magic in the DB universe. It comes if you believe Buu's capable of it. I didn't think it was farfetched that the strongest magic user and also final villain could replicate magic used by other characters before him.
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Post by Solus on Jan 10, 2022 13:25:00 GMT
Been lots of talk in the main current chapter about this and I know DBM uses a tier system but things seemed to have changed a bit over the years. So power wise, how strong do you all think U4 Buu actually is? His crazy op magic aside, does everyone for the most part think he’s between SSJ1/SSJ2 Vegetto tier or could he actually match the fusion in strength? Sorta hard to believe he could, even after all of his absorptions over the years. Unless he got ahold of some real power houses we don’t know about. Still didn't think he could close the gap and be on SSJ2 Vegettos level but I also never thought that SSJ3 Vegetto would ever be needed to put SSJ2 Bra down until that happened. So unless that was just rule of cool for the arts sake I’m not so sure where he’s at anymore. Guess it also depends on how serious Buu might have been during his fight with the buffed up U18 Gotenks who seemed to be around SSJ1 Vegetto level if I remember hearing right. Vegetto was sweating a little bit watching that fight to be fair, while Buu honestly looked like he wasn’t trying at all. I suppose Buu could have also trained over the years but that’s still quite a gap to close. But I could see DBM just fudging his strength up to make him a match for Vegetto with how lax the power scaling seems to be lately, though I think SSJ2 should still be able to handle him. Though i’m also in the camp thinking that SSJ1 Vegetto should be able to handle SSJ2 Bra without too hard of an effort and don’t think she’d stand much of a chance against a serious Zen Buu. So him being at least SSJ1 Vegetto level seems likely, if not a bit stronger. Would he need to be stronger or would his added op magic close the gap enough between Vegetto and himself if they threw down? Those are a lot of questions. Starting with Vegetto vs. Bra, it needs to be considered, that Goku also used SSJ3 to block Cold's attack, when it really wasn't needed. Salagir stated, that characters tend to go to their highest level unless they deliberately want to hold back. So it is to assume that Vegetto didn't need to go SSJ3 against Bra. When they fought initially, it was told that Vegetto only matched Bra's transformations because he wanted to lure Ginyu into changing by showing him his superiority. Going SSJ3 again after the revolt might have been out of anger not out of need.
Regarding how Buu got that strong. Well, it was never stated that Buu can't train, was it? He just never needed to because his power even as Kid Buu was astronimically huge that there never has been anyone rivaling him untill he met South Kaioshin. And then he simply absorbed him and was the strongest. Absorption was always an option for him and at that it was always way more potent than any training could be. An opponent that forces Buu to absorb him would be stronger than him. So absorbing him automatically more than doubles Buu's pl. Now the question is, if all the absorbed people's strength stacks or if Buu can only access the power of the strongest. In canon he said that he has access to both Gotenks' power and Piccolo's intelligence at the same time. But when he fought Vegetto, he never made an attempt to add Gotenks' strength back on top of Gohan's. So there's the question, if Buu is able to stack powers of absorbees at all. Also it is unclear, if he can make Goten and Trunks fuse again while they are absorbed. If he could, which was never shown in canon, he could probably make any other absorbees fuse also for a temporary boost in power. Since he does know the secrets of a better fusion dance, he could make Goku and Vegeta fuse infinitely, which adds the power of Vegetto (or rather Gogeta) on top of his own and on top of Gotenk's and Gohan's. So there you have your answer. Or, if we assume, that Buu cannot train nor make absorbees fuse again, once the split, he still could absorb millions of beings like Cell did. Look how much of a power boost Cell got by simply draining life energy from a few cities. I doubt that this way of sucking blood is as effective as Buu's absorption. So Buu could even gain more power of it, even by only absorbing regular humans (or human level aliens). I don't think it's far fetched at all that Buu has that much raw strength.
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Post by عمار on Jan 12, 2022 12:20:03 GMT
godjacob SkarrThe reason Zen Buu is able to make wishes is explained in his fanfic. As I remember correctly, he absorbed the dragon balls.
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Post by thebritwriter on Jan 12, 2022 23:12:36 GMT
The stadium re-creation, blocking everyone's Instant transmission etc. He is very very very overpowered.
He may actually be the strongest till xxi gets his wish.
It will be interesting to see how they address this because he could just snap and everyone be dead, just as he can snap and bring everyone to life.
I don't see if there was a fight, how vegetto can win, Buu is too diverse in power, and if he can't (somehow) wish for a power boost greater then vegetto, he sure as can wish things to aide him or even weaken the saiyan.
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Post by godjacob on Jan 13, 2022 3:26:51 GMT
godjacob Skarr The reason Zen Buu is able to make wishes is explained in his fanfic. As I remember correctly, he absorbed the dragon balls. 1. If it is explained away in a fanfic, that doesn't change the fact the main story has not addressed it to this point. 2. That is not how that works. The Eternal Dragon is the one that grants wishes, not the physical balls themselves. What could King Piccolo have granted his own wish if he ate all the Dragon Balls? Still appreciate the info.
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 13, 2022 4:05:35 GMT
My issue with Zen Buu is his abilities have shifted from logical extensions of himself and who he absorbed into literal reality warping powers without rhyme or reason. How much the plot seems to favor him compared to other characters and just in general becoming less interesting as time has gone on (Then again I dislike "smart" Buu in general so that is less a DBM complaint and more a Buutenks/Buuhan complaint). That's fair but I didn't really see it that way. He already had basic reality warping powers since he can turn people into food or materialize matter in the Buu saga. The Dragonballs were created by the Nameks so I thought it made sense that the strongest magical entity in the series could replicate their power. I think everything he's done so far has been based on existing magic from the original. Absorbing the strongest and smartest people in universe just allowed him to use the same power in more ways. We did see him restore Babidi's body too after Piccolo cut him in half. There are branches of magic in fiction that can revive the dead. I supposed it is possible for Majin Buu to learn how to revive the dead like the Dragon Balls do. I do admit it was unexpected to see U4 Buu revive everyone at the end of Majin Revolt. It does seem tad overpowering.
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Post by Skarr on Jan 13, 2022 9:02:24 GMT
We did see him restore Babidi's body too after Piccolo cut him in half. There are branches of magic in fiction that can revive the dead. I supposed it is possible for Majin Buu to learn how to revive the dead like the Dragon Balls do. I do admit it was unexpected to see U4 Buu revive everyone at the end of Majin Revolt. It does seem tad overpowering. Some franchises have different types of magic like dark magic, light magic, etc but I'm not sure if that's the case in DB. There haven't been that many magic users in the series and most were relatively weak like the Dragon clan Nameks, Babidi, and Baba. We saw the dragons' power was tied to the power of their creator since Dende's Shenron was stronger than Kami's. Kami's Shenron was killed by King Piccolo so a SSJ3 tier being made of pure magic could theoretically be capable of stronger magic.
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