??????
|
Post by nao3582 on Apr 25, 2018 18:47:39 GMT
My preference for DRAGON BALL has always been anything manga; that goes for DRAGON BALL SUPER, as well. However, I won't deny Toyotaro-san's lack of creativity when it comes to paneling and action-based chapters. Also, there shouldn't be any comparison when it comes to his art style and Toriyama-sensei's; even his less-favored modern stuff wipes the floor with anything from these DRAGON BALL SUPER chapters. This isn't to discredit Toyotaro-san, as he is still developing and has improved tremendously since the very first chapter. He is a very good artist when it comes to basic illustrations, but as a mangaka.... perhaps not so much.
This recent chapter was OK in terms of story quality and art. Some elements could have been improved on, but I can overlook it. I'm not entirely sure if Toyotaro-san has any editors, but it would be great if he had someone to broaden his horizons during the creation of these chapters. I'm sure Toriyama-sensei isn't consistently looming over Toyotaro-san's shoulder during the sketching and inking process. Although their plot executions and decisions can be poor, some of the selective writers at TOEI ANIMATION excel at what they provide... sometimes, they're even better than what Toriyama-sensei comes up with! If only the minds of Toyotaro-san and TOEI ANIMATION writers combined into one.... we could have something close to what Toriyama-sensei once was in his heyday! One could dream, can't he?
|
|
??????
|
Post by iron leaf on Apr 28, 2018 17:49:45 GMT
This chapter was maybe ok, I guess. Although it bored me a lot compared to the previous chapter. Panels, fight choreography and art in general seems not very memorable. This case of Dragonball Super just proves to me that in general the anime version should follow the manga rather than the other way around. Ashanark You're telling me that this guy is maybe jointly-responsible for the character assassination of Son Goku in DBS? I support this allegation. My preference for DRAGON BALL has always been anything manga; that goes for DRAGON BALL SUPER, as well. However, I won't deny Toyotaro-san's lack of creativity when it comes to paneling and action-based chapters. Also, there shouldn't be any comparison when it comes to his art style and Toriyama-sensei's; even his less-favored modern stuff wipes the floor with anything from these DRAGON BALL SUPER chapters. This isn't to discredit Toyotaro-san, as he is still developing and has improved tremendously since the very first chapter. He is a very good artist when it comes to basic illustrations, but as a mangaka.... perhaps not so much. I'm sorry, but no. Toriyama kinda lost his touch. Honestly, I get the feeling that he's responsible that the U6 Saiyans look so skinny. They seem to me like stickmen rather than Saiyans.
|
|
??????
|
Post by nao3582 on Apr 28, 2018 19:45:26 GMT
I don't see the problem with that panel. Vegeta and Raditz are depicted as children during DRAGON BALL MINUS, so they wouldn't have insane muscle mass. Gokū surely didn't when he was a child; that was all chub until he was older during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and even then it wasn't anything excessive. Goku has always had a Bruce Lee-esque physique. It wasn't until later that Saiyan build made a drastic change. IMO, it looked unnecessary and as time went on, clearly Toriyama-sensei thought so, too. You don't need to depict characters as macho to be menacing, and Toriyama-sensei often poked fun at that during DRAGON BALL where we would see insanely muscular characters getting their ass handed to them but someone with the frame of a toddler. His art style here, for example, is acceptable and more realistic in terms of body stature. Person: "N-NANI?! It's a shonen battle series. Realism shouldn't exist, damn moron!" Yes, Toriyama-sensei did design Caulifla as seen here. That wasn't until TOEI decided with the conception of Kale, though, that this happened.
|
|
??????
|
Post by iron leaf on Apr 28, 2018 23:38:24 GMT
nao3582 It's not so much about having excessive muscles. I actually like the idea with SSJGod. There you get skinnier than in normal base form. But the new characters are, ehm, just weirdly drawn. So much actually that it breaks my immersion of Dragonball in general. Depict a new character as skinny, I have no problem, but no muscles at all is pretty weird. In Dragonball/Z we have kid Goku and kid Gohan. They aren't insanely muscular. And it's funny when they beat up bodybuilders or sumo wrestlers compared to their child bodies. In DB Minus Kid Vegeta and Kid Raditz look more like a caricature of Toriyama's artstyle. I was at first shocked if that is really made by Toriyama.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on May 3, 2018 0:27:11 GMT
Paneling I think is also something that the manga needs more of. Good paneling. Intense paneling. The DBS manga just feels kind of...flat. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of intensity in the whole thing. Remember when Merged Zamasu ripped off his shirt in the manga and and trading punches with Goku and everyone was like "ZOMG THIS FEELS LIKE DBZ!"? The art was simply more intense and evoked that old-school vibe. The manga needs more like the above image. Toyotaro has shown he can do it...I just wish he did it more often. Take this example from the latest chapter. This is Hit's ULTIMATE TECHNIQUE...and it just ...happens. Did we all just know that Hit wasn't going to do anything against Jiren? Yes. But that doesn't mean it can't look cool even if it's completely worthless. Take this DBZ example for instance. That's just Piccolo doing a KI BLAST. Not even a real special technique like the Hellzone Grenade or something! Just a freakin' ki blast! Yet it has this crazy dramatic angle with a big sound effect. Likewise let's look at finishing blows. This is Jiren uppercutting Hit off the stage. It's not too bad. Got some angles in here, Jiren looks powerful while Hit's flying off the ring, etc. But it still lacks...impact. Let's compare Goku defeating Nappa: Or Cell defeating Vegeta. See? It just has an extra...OOMPH. Super is capable of doing this, like Vegeta's Gamma Burst Flash: I'm not saying every panel of DBZ was absolutely amazing, this isn't Berserk after all. Likewise I'm not saying every panel of DBS feels flat. Sometimes moments just feel...I guess lackluster is the word I'm looking for.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on May 21, 2018 11:52:38 GMT
New chapter is up and so far it--OH GOD DAMMIT THIS IS THE RIBRIANNE CHAPTER. www.viz.com/shonenjump/dragon-ball-super-chapter-36/chapter/6837Kinda. She only gets part of the chapter before being eliminated but even then it's too much. While I can appreciate that Toyotaro reduced this character's screen time a bit I wouldn't have minded if she were eliminated off panel. Aside from Ribrianne though it's not too bad I guess. Vegeta was calm and collected until Toppo and Dypso pressed the Goku Button so now he's going ape oozaru shit on them, so that's kinda funny. Krillin being the "Perfect Specimen" was also a bit of a difference from the anime too. #17 stole Botamo's elimination from Gohan by doing kinda the same thing Gohan did in the anime to eliminate him so there's that I guess. Overall this seems kind of okay, I liked the brief moment where Gohan, Piccolo and #17 are all teamed up and working together as a small group. Those three are all decently strong and-- NO THEY KEPT PICCOLO NOT HEARING THE BUG BUT #17 COULD HEAR HIM. WHY. WHY HAS EVERYONE FORGOTTEN THAT PICCOLO HAS AMAZEBALLS HEARING???! Worse still, they justify this with #17 being unable to sense ki, so he got to SS3 levels by fighting and detecting poachers via sound, causing Goku to have the epiphany that #17 can just HEAR the bug fighter, which he does. So now Piccolo has been eliminated with the same absurd elimination as the anime, without even facing off against the U6 Namekians? Or even just TALKING to them? C'mon. #18 also gets eliminated. No big sacrifice by saving #17 and keeping him in...not even a really big scene where the two Androids are working together to take down an opponent, just a little smack from the U4 invisible guy and off she goes. She still keeps the bit where she beats up Ribrianne, but doesn't eliminate her. In fact, #18 actually gets eliminated before Ribrianne does, despite winning the fight. Roshi is somehow still in though, so he hasn't been eliminated off panel. Also, here's a thing the GP made for the Zen-Ohs as a quick "who is still in" board: Overall I felt this chapter would've been okay otherwise, but Ribrianne having screen time combined with Piccolo's silly elimination and #18's less heroic elimination all in the same chapter makes me want to not like this on principle.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Symbiotic on May 21, 2018 13:11:53 GMT
How freaking hardcore are the poachers in DBZ land?
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on May 21, 2018 13:48:25 GMT
How freaking hardcore are the poachers in DBZ land? Apparently hardcore enough that in the manga #17 is able to get to SS3 tier (at least for now, we'll see if he proves himself to be on even higher tiers in the manga when the ToP reaches its end) just by fighting them and protecting the animals, while EVEN MORE HARDCORE in the anime where he gets to SSB+ tier. Either way it's still abundantly stupid. Poachers shouldn't have been a challenge for Kid Goku, let alone #17 to the point where he was getting strength gains.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Namikaze on May 21, 2018 15:38:22 GMT
Isn't Beerus technically calling Helles cute by association? It sounds like he is, but doesn't want to appear affectionate because he generally finds the beauty obsession annoying. Speaking of Universe 2, I like their handling much better here though I like parts from the anime better such as their introduction, Rozie & Kakunsa having more character moments, everything with Jimeze, etc. Aside from that??? Nothing. Yep, U2 was the best part of this entire chapter. Everything else in here was just heatless filler or that horrible U4 subplot that was (thankfully) handled early. I do enjoy the chaotic feel aspect and all but I'm just not feeling Manga ToP thus far. How freaking hardcore are the poachers in DBZ land? Apparently hardcore enough that in the manga #17 is able to get to SS3 tier (at least for now, we'll see if he proves himself to be on even higher tiers in the manga when the ToP reaches its end) just by fighting them and protecting the animals, while EVEN MORE HARDCORE in the anime where he gets to SSB+ tier. Either way it's still abundantly stupid. Poachers shouldn't have been a challenge for Kid Goku, let alone #17 to the point where he was getting strength gains. Going by this logic, Goku should've been SSJ level due to his encounters with the Red Ribbon Army.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on May 21, 2018 16:05:57 GMT
Going by this logic, Goku should've been SSJ level due to his encounters with the Red Ribbon Army. Exactly. #17 is just the latest one to get a DBS power creep powerup for practically nothing.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on May 21, 2018 16:07:57 GMT
When it comes to figure drawing, Toyotaro is excellent. Everybody in here was well-drawn. I especially like Vegeta, who was bulkier than he was in the DBS anime yet not roid-rage Super Vegeta, and 17, who's been given a little more beef as well. While Toyotaro still doesn't have the same flair for paneling presentation Toriyama did, he's nevertheless got his share of cool ones: The main problems of this chapter were more problems with DBS's manner of storytelling, and Dragon Ball's perception of things in general, and not so much specific problems with the chapter. Case in point: ...Did Toeiyama/Toyotaro forget Vegeta's epiphany in the Buu saga, or is the character they'd rather write? From the hypothetical perspective of a reader who has just finished the Buu saga and has continued to Super, this scene would feel like Vegeta's undergone a serious relapse in his pride rehab program. Not even Saiyan Saga Vegeta was this arrogant, because he knew darn well there were at least eight beings stronger than him, one of which hopelessly more so. This is more in line with Cell saga Vegeta...which is probably why Toeiyama/Toyotaro have kept Vegeta in armor ever since BoG: it hides or reverses the character development he had when he ditched the armor in the Buu saga. If this is the person Toeiyama/Toyotaro think Vegeta is, well...they're wrong, since they're disagreeing with who he was at the end of the Buu saga. If this is who they'd rather write, it's either because it's easier than giving him depth (which is a copout) or because they think Vegeta is legitimately a better character like this, which I vehemently disagree with. It's so funny, again, the 180 difference between DBS and DBM: -- Dragon Ball's writing often goes on a scene-by-scene basis: what would look cool? The writers have a specific scene idea in mind, so consistency or character development aren't their top concern. We see this several times this chapter. -- -- Piccolo gets sneak-attacked by Sumo Guy. "Are all warriors from your universe dishonorable?" he asks--forgetting the time where he played dead against Goku in the World Tournament so he could sneak-attack him with a mouth-beam through the chest. Piccolo has always been one of the more pragmatic fighters (was there honor in chopping Babidi in half with his hand when the wizard couldn't even fight back?), and this isn't even counting all the times that "dishonorable" tactics were crucial for victory in DBZ or attempted by good guys without issue. No, Piccolo says this line because it'd be cool. -- -- Invisible characters are a problem--forgetting how Dragon Ball characters, from the very beginning of DBZ at least, could keep track of enemies they couldn't see through ki sensing. (DBZ has this issue, too.) This fight occurs because it'd be cool. -- -- Piccolo gets eliminated because he can't hear his opponent--forgetting how Piccolo's hearing was a plot point earlier in DBZ. Piccolo is eliminated because it'd be cool to see 17 figure out somebody's trick. -- Finally, character development. One of the bare bones for any story is characters having arcs--some kind of journey they undergo from beginning to end. Even for the Buu saga, I can think of at least several character arcs: Gohan's ("I didn't take protecting the world seriously, and I've paid the price"), Vegeta's ("What do I really want from life?"), Mr. Satan's ("Am I really a hero...and if not, can I become one?"). Even Goku kind of has one: "Did I make the right decision leaving the world behind seven years ago?" I won't say these were necessarily intentional by Toriyama, and not all of them were fulfilled, but at least they were there. On the other hand, what character development has occurred in DBS? What is Goku's arc in this saga? Vegeta's? None of these characters came into this tournament with really anything to prove or any way to develop. U11, perhaps, but when every single one of your protagonists is a static character...that's a problem. The anime was better at avoiding this because greater screentime meant most people at least got a scene, though the quality of the scenes varied. The manga not only has less time to spread around, but it often sabotages moments for rule of cool. Example: Ribrianne is fighting 18. Setting aside how this fight is not actually funny and is therefore stupid, there's potential here. Ribrianne thinks 18 is ugly; this belief is challenged by Krillin, who Ribrianne thinks is male perfection, being married to 18. Ribrianne's belief of "beauty = strength" is also challenged by 18, who's stronger than she is. Now Ribrianne and 18 are at the arena's edge. Ribrianne, disillusioned, is considering jumping off the arena; 18, disgusted, is considering just blasting Ribrianne off. This is a potential moment of character development: does Ribrianne jump off, holding to her ideals? Does she not, discarding them or possibly re-evaluating them? Does 18 wait, putting her disgust aside to possibly teach Ribrianne a lesson? No. Neither of them get to make a choice, because an invisible opponent eliminates them while they're distracted. Because an invisible opponent eliminating 18 and Ribrianne suddenly would be cool. *** I want to point out I'm not criticizing Toyotaro specifically for this. He's simply trying to emulate Toriyama as best he can. Still, Dragon Ball's writing is pretty simplistic, often formulaic at times, and there are plenty of shonen out there which avoid DB's pitfalls. People may not like DBM but I feel Salagir is at least trying to show a little consistency and give opportunities for character development.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Kirasha on May 21, 2018 17:51:05 GMT
Excuse me? Well drawn?
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on May 21, 2018 18:51:40 GMT
Ashanark Honestly, I'd say Goku and Vegeta aren't the best things to compare DBM to DBS to, characterization-wise. Gohan is a much better example in DBM's favor...well, U16 Gohan at any rate. Vegeta I honestly see no difference between DBM and DBS, not counting power levels and hair colors of course. I honestly think Vegeta is about as developed in DBS as he is in DBM, while Goku is more developed in DBM than DBS. Here's what I mean: ...Did Toeiyama/Toyotaro forget Vegeta's epiphany in the Buu saga, or is the character they'd rather write? From the hypothetical perspective of a reader who has just finished the Buu saga and has continued to Super, this scene would feel like Vegeta's undergone a serious relapse in his pride rehab program. Honestly, at this point I'd say Vegeta is being consistent with his inconsistency. Let's take look at Vegeta at the end of the Cell Saga: Vegeta here is so ashamed at Goku's selflessness and so embarrassed that he ended up as nothing but a liability and damn near almost got Gohan killed that he vows to never fight again. Jumping from this point to the Buu Saga and suddenly Vegeta is challenging Gohan in the tournament because he's gotten soft and he thinks he can win! What happened to never fighting again Vegeta?! Skip ahead to Kid Buu, and of course we have Vegeta acknowledging that Goku is #1. While Vegeta does in fact acknowledge Goku's superiority...I don't think that means he'd give up on one day surpassing him. Just that in that particular moment Goku is the better of the two of them, and he's simply stating facts. In fact, the last vestige of the old Vegeta is his refusal to fall behind Goku. So I'd say while Vegeta had accepted in that moment that Goku was the best, it didn't damper his desire to one day surpass him. Super opened up the possibilities for Vegeta to catch up once more thanks to god ki, since lacking access to SS3 meant Vegeta would've been behind, at least temporarily...but now is on even footing thanks to SSB. Kinda like how U18 Vegeta has an ace up his sleeve for more power but is saving it for his fight with Goku. Oh DBS Vegeta still insults Goku all the time, but now in a more friendly rival manner as opposed to vehement hatred. I'd say in this particular regard there honestly isn't too much of a difference, again in this particular instance, with DBM's U18 Vegeta who actually in fact still secretly wishes he could be beating Goku's face to a bloody pulp and this is AFTER he'd already defeated U13 Kakarotto and blasted a giant hole in his chest! I don't think they gave it that much thought, hiding character development or whatever I mean. Vegeta's most popular look is armored, so naturally they gave him some armor again. When Krillin got back into fighting form in the anime he didn't enter the ToP in his police uniform, he wore his classic Turtle School gi--because that's the look best associated with his character. I legitimately don't think it goes deeper than that. Get stronger! Get stronger than Goku! I agree, but then again I don't see how this is really all that different from DBM Goku or Vegeta. Now, while I in fact DO believe that DBM has done much better with side characters than Super has done, say like with Gohan for instance...when it comes to Goku and Vegeta I don't see much if any progression at all. They seem just as static as their DBS counterparts. Goku, moreso than Vegeta, who I feel has matured equally in either DBM or DBS. What is Goku's arc in DBM? He's thrilled that Uub can exert himself without damage to the planet, so that's why he joined the tournament and he's excited to "reenact legendary fights" again. While this is better than Goku's generic "I'M GONNA GET STRONGER" mentality in Super, what else is Goku even doing besides do some occasional character wanking? He hasn't changed a bit in literally 10 years of DBM's publication! Or Vegeta for that matter? He only joined because Goku was running off to another tournament with Uub and he refused to get left behind and is expressly looking to fight Goku again, going so far as to draw out a tournament bracket and casually talking about all the people he'd have to defeat, including telling Pan to straight up throw her match...because he wanted to be happy with a future fight involving a certain someone named Kakarotto... ...who he ends up being completely disappointed by since even though it's a Kakarot...it's not Goku who he just defeated. Just a shadow. This also sounds very familiar...and I'm linking the anime scene for laziness, but the same thing is said in the DBS manga: Much like how U18 Vegeta ultimately held no respect for Kakarotto, DBS Vegeta holds no respect for Goku Black even though they both wanted to fight someone who looked just like Goku...and ended up with just a shadow. Oh sure, U18 Vegeta has shown that he can be mature...but given that this is building off of the Buu Saga he's just hitting literally all the same beats as Buu Saga Epiphany Vegeta. What is Vegeta's arc in DBM? What's new that wasn't there before in DBZ? Because Vegeta respecting Goku has been a thing since DBZ after all, not DBM. He has his calm moments, sure, but so does DBS Vegeta. U18 Vegeta shows pride in his future son...and so does DBS Vegeta. DBS Vegeta can, at times, swallow his pride, just like U18 Vegeta. DBS Vegeta also has moments of arrogance, but that hasn't stopped U18 Vegeta from having his own arrogant moments, like refusing to use his full power on "pink gum they'd already beaten" when it looked like Zen Buu was going to take over the entire tournament because he was saving it purely for Goku and Goku alone. In fact, I'd say Vegeta's more negative traits come across more often in DBS than DBM partially because of Toriyama's writing style, and partially because DBS straight up just gives Vegeta much more screen time than DBM does, and by a significant margin too.
|
|
??????
|
Post by The Retro Kakarotto on May 21, 2018 23:16:21 GMT
I don't think they gave it that much thought, hiding character development or whatever I mean. Vegeta's most popular look is armored, so naturally they gave him some armor again. When Krillin got back into fighting form in the anime he didn't enter the ToP in his police uniform, he wore his classic Turtle School gi--because that's the look best associated with his character. I legitimately don't think it goes deeper than that. Don't have much to add because I did a parody of this since you covered most of the points I agreed with.
The armor, however, I'm a bit confused about. Why is "No Armor Vegeta" automatically associated with "character progression?" (Of course Out-Universe reason is because Vegeta is most recognizable in that get up, but here's the In-Universe questioning)
If I recall correctly, the events of the Buu saga took two, three days tops. First he was training kid Trunks during the 7 years of peace, so no imminent danger was present, meaning no need for the armor. Second, the World Martial Arts tournament had the rule "no armor allowed" so naturally, Buu Saga Vegeta only wore the spandex. Now comes Buu and everyone is focused on stopping what the Kaioshins feared the most. This turned into war time, was it really necessary for Vegeta to get the Armor back just to be "prepared to fight once more?" Not really imo. Majin Vegeta was focused on fighting Goku, he sacrificed himself, he didn't get to bring his clothes with him when he died and upon Baba's 1 day pass, he and Goku are up against Buuhan, the strongest enemy thus far. "Vegeta, use the earring, we can stop Buu!" yeah he definitely wants to stick around to stop Buuhan and not waste time about his appearance by running back to capsule corp where he's easy picking for the Djinn.
Goku's #1 Speech, blah blah blah, he's definitely better than me. Buu saga ended there.
-> DBM included the 10 year time skip, and once again, the Earth was at peace; no need for the armor, just regular training sessions. The Multiverse Tournament is announced and Vegeta goes Spandex only bc he was ready to go the moment he was called to the Lookout. (Quick out universe reason for the spandex was to physically distinguish him from U13 Emperor Vegeta and U10 Vegeta) Later he had his matches against King Veggie, Future Trunks, and Psychopath Kakarot, all three matches had him recall his progression over the years. "I settled on Earth and had a family; It wasn't bad, My son; You should've learned from Pan's Grandfather, Son Goku." But that was his attitude, not his attire that was so significant.
-> DBS took this so that Vegeta accepts Goku as the better warrior, but he still had the desire to surpass this "better warrior." (Also as of this post, it is unknown if Super will retcon the EoZ events or not, so maybe we'll get Armor Vegeta in the Super Version of EoZ.) Maybe he wore the armor in anticipation of fighting Goku later at Bulma's birthday party and didn't want to return as a bloody mess, or so that he wouldn't be so bruised up as much if he didn't wear it. (Yes, I know the Senzu beans exist, but this is coming from the Universe that didn't tell Future Trunks "New Namek is over there, just ask King Kai") Come Beerus and Whis, Vegeta decides to take the "hardest training session of his life" (and even in the anime, Bulma gave the armor as a present so that he wouldn't look like some ragged beaten up man traveling the cosmos). Then we get Frieza, two counts of "I need to train harder in case some shit happens." U6 Tournament "there's some saiyans there, let's see what they look like compared to us." Then Goku Black and then the Tournament of power.
Or if you just skipped to this line bc you knew I would write a "tl;dr" tl;dr DBM maybe had Armorless Vegeta as a sign of "progression" compared to the other opponents, but DBS came back to fighting baddies like Beerus, Frieza, Goku Black, and the "Tournament to decide the Universe's fate" so War Time was back once again, and Vegeta needs the armor to defend against all threats. (And DBM Vegeta had no threats to defend against.)
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on May 22, 2018 16:12:45 GMT
The armor, however, I'm a bit confused about. Why is "No Armor Vegeta" automatically associated with "character progression?" Personally, I don't think it should be. To say that Armorless Vegeta (just the look I mean) represents character progression IMO seems to miss the actual character progression the character had pre-Buu and suggests Vegeta's progression is only skin-deep when if anything in Super its far from it. I despise many, many things about Super, as is well-known at this point, but Vegeta is not one of them. While it wasn't a radical shift as we saw in the Buu Saga, Vegeta clearly progressed over time while still keeping the armor for most of DBZ. He went from a heartless bastard who blew up one of the last survivors of his endangered race to working with "inferior" allies in the face of a common threat to outright rage and despair when his son was gunned down in front of him to raising a family and then having a Saiyan Midlife Crisis where he briefly goes full evil again before ultimately sacrificing himself for them and even that damned Kakarot. If anything, Vegeta as of the Buu Saga was the natural conclusion to his *current* arc, while Super has taken that and turned it into friendly rivalry with Goku while still keeping that familiar chip on his shoulder. DBS Vegeta's latest comments about being #1 in the universe IMO are typical Vegeta bluster to some enemy he's never met before who is insulting his prowess by mashing the Goku Button and saying off the bat that he's inferior, which we all know Vegeta just HATES, to the point that he just keeps kicking Toppo until he relents a tiny bit and says that they're more or less equals. In more quiet moments he's acknowledged that Goku is still either his superior or at the very least that he's crossed the gap and become equal to him, and that he's still sick of playing catchup just because Toriyama likes Goku more (again acknowledging that since he's playing catchup, he's inferior) and that he actually still has a long, long way to go as a warrior. This is also the same Vegeta who refused to train, literally moments after declaring that he would get to the top before Goku, in order to support Bulma as she was close to giving birth to Bra, which is a direct 180 with how cold he was when the same thing happened with Trunks. On that note, I do apologize for having to show Goku's own descent into idiocy since it just so happens to be on the same page as what I'm showing, but then again I'm not arguing for Goku at all so I could care less. Heck, Vegeta even considers Gohan more often than his own father Goku does when it comes to fighting potential, saying that Gohan's potential exceeds Goku's and even his own, which for someone as prideful as Vegeta is a powerful thing to say. ...and then again when it comes time to get the 10 warriors needed Vegeta's the first one to suggest Gohan again, and not only that, but he suggests Gohan as a direct replacement to the #2 fighter of U7, the mighty Monaka! Also with some of the old Princely attitude snarking out about how Goku should've trained him properly. So yeah, I think once you separate Vegeta from the heat of battle he's shown to be fairly matured compared to his old self. This moment from DBM: And this moment from Super's manga: IMO the two scenes are almost completely identical. Vegeta's opponent makes a claim that Vegeta is inferior to Goku, Vegeta immediately gets triggered by it, and the only fundamental difference is that in DBM it was not the proper time and place given current events with the Majin Revolt, while over in DBS it oh so really IS the proper time and place to settle the matter since nothing else in the multiverse matters except the Tournament of Power at the current time. Had events been different and U18 Vegeta and U13 Vegeta randomly met somewhere like a ToP-esque setting I don't think it would be a very hard leap of logic to assume that the two Vegetas would've started throwing down immediately after that last biting remark.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2018 1:37:07 GMT
-I'm glad Ribrianne was eliminated so quickly because she overstayed her welcome in the anime! Most of her appearances genuinely felt like filler because she would pop up, distract a U7 member, get knocked away, and show up again after a few episodes. I get she was meant to be a parody of the magic girl genre but she fulfilled that role in her first appearance so I don't know why she had to last so long. I suppose it's because Toei is also known for Sailor Moon and Pretty Cure and they hoped Ribrianne would appeal to that fanbase. -Damon and the invisible guy performed a lot better here. In the anime, they hid throughout most of the tournament and decided to attack U7 when the remaining members were all together so they got the team's full attention. Here they were able to get a few eliminations by attacking contestants while they were preoccupied in other battles. It also fits better with the chaotic nature of a battle royale when a battle could get interrupted at any time rather than the next opponent waiting for their turn to fight. -Toyotaro did my boy Piccolo dirty. Piccolo got eliminated and #17 was the one to use his ears to find Damon! Piccolo was eliminated even before getting a chance to meet the Nameks. Piccolo and Gohan vs the U6 Nameks was one of the standout battles in the anime ToP. Is Gohan going to take them on by himself?! It's interesting how many differences there are between the anime and manga this time around compared to previous sagas. Ashanark Honestly, I'd say Goku and Vegeta aren't the best things to compare DBM to DBS to, characterization-wise. Gohan is a much better example in DBM's favor...well, U16 Gohan at any rate. Vegeta I honestly see no difference between DBM and DBS, not counting power levels and hair colors of course. I honestly think Vegeta is about as developed in DBS as he is in DBM, while Goku is more developed in DBM than DBS. In both DBM and GT, I felt Goku and Vegeta came off as more mature than they are in DBS. For example, they had to get beaten by Merged Zamasu before agreeing to fuse together during the Goku Black saga. In GT, Vegeta was the one to bring up fusion which shows he's mature enough to sense the enemy is too much for him alone and is willing to fuse from the beginning. They had already learned this lesson in the Buu saga so it's just a waste of time to go through it again. If there comes a time for Goku and Vegeta to fuse into Gogeta against Vegetto or XXI, I would guess it plays out like in GT and reflects their previous development. This whole having the characters re-learn on old lesson is what makes Gohan so frustrating in DBS. It's not that he doesn't enjoy training but the fact that he slacked off again and needed to get motivated again to train. By the end of the Buu saga, he should've realized that he should train to maintain this power because slacking off could result in him being too weak to protect his family. Instead he slacks off even more to the point where he isn't sure he could turn SSJ! I can't wrap my head around how anyone at Toei could consider this good writing. If all they could do with a character is regress them so they could give them the same development, the character or series is better off being left alone in my opinion. I think a problem was that they were both developed by the Buu saga so there wasn't much left to do with them. In DBM, there's no attempt to develop them and it only shows the result of all their development throughout the series. Moving forward, I believe DBS Goku and Vegeta will be a lot closer to their GT and DBM counterparts because they could only have them relearn the same lessons so many times before it finally sticks with them.
EDIT Regarding Vegeta's armor, I found it interesting that they had him wear it during the Tarble special and BoG where he was only going to attend a party and had no intentions of fighting anyone. It could just be a style choice or it could also show that version of Vegeta was most comfortable in his Saiyan armor. At this point in the story, the armor is more of a symbol than for actual defense since it doesn't hold up for long against their current opponents. In GT, he was always in regular clothes even when he went to join Goku during the final battle against Omega Shenron. In DBM, the armor seemed to have been provided by Freeza's armor so maybe Vegeta no longer wanted to be associated with Freeza or the Saiyan who worked under him. I'm not what the case is in DBS but I think it's implied that the U6 Saiyans wear the original armor so the U7 design may have also come from Freeza's army.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on May 23, 2018 11:35:02 GMT
In both DBM and GT, I felt Goku and Vegeta came off as more mature than they are in DBS. For example, they had to get beaten by Merged Zamasu before agreeing to fuse together during the Goku Black saga. In GT, Vegeta was the one to bring up fusion which shows he's mature enough to sense the enemy is too much for him alone and is willing to fuse from the beginning. They had already learned this lesson in the Buu saga so it's just a waste of time to go through it again. If there comes a time for Goku and Vegeta to fuse into Gogeta against Vegetto or XXI, I would guess it plays out like in GT and reflects their previous development. Different type of fusion though, Metamoran dance vs. Potara earring, as well as different situations. Vegeta was reluctant the first time because he hated Goku for holding back on him, but was quickly convinced with Buuhan on the way. At the last possible second Goku also revealed that the fusion was supposed to be permanent, which shocked the hell out of him, but by then it was too late. Later with Kid Buu the enemy had decreased so much in power they felt they honestly didn't need to fuse anyway, which ended up being proven right--though not in the way they expected. GT also had SS4 Gogeta clown around with Omega Shenron, which was bizarrely out of character and immature all things considered. The second time he was only reluctant with the potara since he was under the old belief that it was permanent and couldn't be undone. He was shocked when he learned it was only temporary. He doesn't resent Goku nearly as much as he did before with Buuhan, he just didn't want to cease existing entirely, much like what happens with U16 Vegito where he just becomes a new person entirely and Goku/Vegeta cease to exist. He also doesn't know about Kibitokai probably since he doesn't care for him at all. The instant he learns that it's only temporary he's immediately down for it and he's the one who suggests to fuse after initially saying no. By contrast to SS4 Gogeta clowning around, SSB Vegito was legitimately trying to end the fight as quickly as he could, he just wasn't able to clinch it before the fusion wore off earlier than expected. So I'd say going off of maturity ultimately Super wins out over GT just by comparing SSB Vegito to SS4 Gogeta. In both GT and Super, Vegeta is perfectly okay with a temporary fusion and this reflects in both series. You could make the argument that Vegeta should've just fused right away and done what was necessary to stop Zamasu, and you'd be right...but this loops back into what I was saying about DBM and how Vegeta refused to use his full power against Zen Buu even though he knows damn well that just a SS2 wasn't enough against Kid Buu, let alone a Buu stronger than even Buuhan. Vegeta is just as immature in DBM as he's being in DBS about not picking the most optimal option right away (full power vs fusion), just in DBM he's saving it for a grudge match with Goku while in DBS he just didn't want to permanently be stuck forever with him. This is why I say they're about equal between DBM and Super. Both Vegetas have shown they've grown, but both still get a little childish where Goku is concerned. IMO, DBM really had a chance to show how mature Vegeta had gotten by just instantly working with Goku against Zen Buu, but chose not to. If it was because they didn't want to reveal Vegeta's new powerup that early in the game (like literally 5 years ago) then really all they should've done was have them powerup and prepare to unleash their full power...and then Gast just vaccums Buu up into a ball and that's that. Boom, Vegeta shows he no longer hesitates in working with Goku 100% against a common threat vastly stronger than they are. Problem solved. He doesn't though, which is why I think DBM Vegeta and DBS Vegeta are about equal to each other, since in every other category they hit the same beats--respecting Future Trunks after meeting them again, being more of a normal father, etc. Toriyama, not Toei. Gohan also expressed some doubt about going SS1 in the DBZ RoF movie, though he was a BIT more confident than the anime arc. EDIT: Yup, also in the Toyotaro manga version of RoF. Vegeta actually says why he's wearing armor in that movie. It's Saiyan Formal Wear. He and Bulma are hosting a party and Vegeta has dressed up for the occasion. The fact that it doubles as combat gear is just a bonus for a warrior race like the Saiyans.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on May 24, 2018 3:43:51 GMT
Vegeta should know the fusion isn't permanent by that point....Kibito and Shin used the Dragon Balls to undo their fusion.... If DBS Vegeta's reason for not using the earrings a second time it makes him seem dumber....
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on May 24, 2018 4:05:27 GMT
Vegeta should know the fusion isn't permanent by that point....Kibito and Shin used the Dragon Balls to undo their fusion.... If DBS Vegeta's reason for not using the earrings a second time it makes him seem dumber.... Right, but that's why I pointed out that Vegeta likely doesn't know about Kibitokai. He barely knows Shin, briefly met Kibito (before he got killed by Dabura), briefly met Kibitokai when more urgent things had happened like the Earth being blown up and his family got murdered, probably didn't know that Kibito had been revived, never knew that Kibito and Shin had fused in the first place, likely doesn't care about them in any shape, form, or fashion regardless, and probably doesn't know that they used Namekian DBs to undo the potara fusion he likely didn't know about anyway, then sees Shin again much later in the Zamasu Arc. We, the audience, know this. Vegeta does not.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on May 24, 2018 4:35:17 GMT
Vegeta should know the fusion isn't permanent by that point....Kibito and Shin used the Dragon Balls to undo their fusion.... If DBS Vegeta's reason for not using the earrings a second time it makes him seem dumber.... Right, but that's why I pointed out that Vegeta likely doesn't know about Kibitokai. He barely knows Shin, briefly met Kibito (before he got killed by Dabura), briefly met Kibitokai when more urgent things had happened like the Earth being blown up and his family got murdered, probably didn't know that Kibito had been revived, never knew that Kibito and Shin had fused in the first place, likely doesn't care about them in any shape, form, or fashion regardless, and probably doesn't know that they used Namekian DBs to undo the potara fusion he likely didn't know about anyway, then sees Shin again much later in the Zamasu Arc. We, the audience, know this. Vegeta does not. I don't know man this seems like it makes Vegeta dumber to me and more like the old Vegeta who couldn't be bothered to learn people's names or appearances.
|
|