??????
|
Post by Dr. Wheelo on Dec 30, 2016 7:13:59 GMT
I can't help but think so. In the Bardock Special I felt his visions were pretty fitting, going into it we already knew that Frieza would blow up the planet, Goku would surpass the most elite Saiyan, and that he would eventually face down Frieza. We knew this because these were things we had already learned of or seen in the main series, this was a way of letting Bardock in on information that was familiar to the audience so he could respond and plan accordingly. What if the Bardock Special took it a step farther and had him see visions of Piccolo fusing with Kami, the Kamehameha struggle with Cell, or Goku tapping into SSJ3 against Buu? I feel those moments would have been less special when we actually got around to them, and that's what we have here with Bardock revealing major things about the story.
I feel Vegetto going absolutely berserk and seemingly SNAPPING GOHAN'S NECK should have been a huge and massive twist that shook the foundation of the story, the biggest and most powerful hero in the entire tournament just turned into one of the biggest threats! Except instead of that being a shocking moment, we now all know that its coming because Bardock saw it in the future. Imagine every hero in the tournament is defeated and all hope is lost, but one lone warrior stands in his way and his name is Yamcha! That sounds like an epic moment that should leave the community hyped but now it's reduced to "Oh cool, we finally reached that Yamcha panel from Bardock's vision"; when things finally do hit the fan we'll already know that Yamcha at some point will end up as the last line of defense against him, at least temporarily.
How about his first line in the comic "I saw your future... and I know who you'll lose to", well thanks for dooming one of the frontrunners of the tournament to a pre-determined fate, Salagir. Truth be told, as much as I want Raichi to win, this is the most damning piece of evidence against him. If Bardock saw Raichi lose to Bra then that means he already knew he himself was going to lose, because Bra could only reach that battle by facing the winner of Bardock vs Cold. Either Bardock is too dumb to understand the implications of his own vision, Salagir didn't think that line through, or Raichi is losing to Gast. There are a few possible work arounds like if Raichi appeared to die, seeming to fulfill the vision, but Hatchiyack then sprang forth. Though at face-value it really doesn't look good for the doctor.
To get back on the overall topic, I think they do more harm than good. It was probably meant to be a nice little tease to treat us with things to come, but in the long-run it just spoils major events. |
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Dec 30, 2016 7:41:25 GMT
I don't think they did. Without context for a lot of what is going to happen we so far are left guessing with these visions and how they will play out. We're so sure these events are going to go one way and so far I don't think they have gone down exactly the way we expected them to. Buu's rampage for example did finally happen and while we saw it coming we didn't know when. When it finally happened it still generated a lot of excitement on what was going to happen or if he would succeed or not. Technically speaking Buu's Tournament inside his body could have had all those plots play out there or still in the tournament ground, so I felt there was still a lot of mystery and wow factor there.
Vegetto or even Yamecha's moments are telling, but without context we still don't really know how or when they will play out. All of us are so sure Vegetto snapping Gohan's neck means he is going to turn evil or that all the talk about defeating Vegetto means he'll be evil, but we are still guessing. We're speculating if it happens what will make him snap. It's effectively a ticking time bomb on if Vegetto is the main threat or if XXI will be. We aren't even sure if Yamecha's big moment will amount to a fucking awesome moment or if he is just the distraction. It's not like it spoiled anything for him. The visions were more of an excuse to let us the audience know there is more of a plot going on in DBM. That might have been important because with DBM's pacing without the knowledge of some of these facts there is a real possibility some of us would have been fed up and left the comic, thinking it was just going to be a mindless tournament.
With the actual manga and anime series we had weekly chapters or a weekly episode schedule that could advance plots or action a lot faster. I can't really say the visions have ruined anything for me in terms of suspense or excitement yet.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 30, 2016 7:51:18 GMT
I only agree with your criticism about the first Bardock line: "I saw your future... and I know who will beat you" certainly has implications that make Bardock appear a little... absent minded. And yeah, that it's likely Raichi will only go so far. I think that particular dialogue line should have been skipped.
Otherwise I'm fine with it. While we get an overview of what is to come, we only barely know WHAT is going to happen (and sometimes not even that) but not HOW it happened.
Just like we all know U13 Saiyans beat Freeza, but we do not know HOW, and therefore it is one of the things most people want to see.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Andres on Dec 30, 2016 13:49:59 GMT
Since everyone learns who they are fighting as it is announced, I don't think anyone knows, remembers nor cares about the brackets.
Only one shown to care and be smart enough to keep track was U18 Vegeta, and he only kept track of his own bracket, only after all the matches before him were done. I don't think the rest of the tournament remembers (nor cares) who goes next. And that was a big assumption: he just assumed the tournament had a Tenkaichi Budokai format of brackets. These birdies might have been sneekier than he tought!
Uub and Goku would have said anything after Uub defeated Majin Buu. "Oh, sensei, we're fighting next!" - "Oh cool! Looking forward to!"
I don't think they have a clue who they're fighting next.
Except Geets, of course.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 30, 2016 20:25:23 GMT
U13 Kakarotto did have some forethought too, AndresI remember him saying something like "After I defeat this Pan... then I fight that Trunk or that Version of Vegeta". |
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on Dec 30, 2016 20:45:29 GMT
I agree with a lot of what's been said already. There are both pros and cons to the visions, but on the whole I think the pros far outweigh the cons. Bardock's visions were crucial to both raising the stakes of DBM and making the readers aware that there was an actual deeper plot coming somewhere down the road, not just an enormous tournament arc. In many ways it gave us a ton of things to look forward to and certainly a lot more to discuss. Also, a few things must have some kind of foreshadowing to make any sense. The Ginyu reveal was already considered by many to be a real "wut?" moment and without its first mention by Bardock, it really would've come right out of nowhere. I agree with Son Pan that, on the whole, the visions are sparse enough in their context to prevent true spoilers. Anyone familiar with U4 Buu's nature wouldn't be surprised if he got angry at one point, and we still have no idea what the heck is going to make Goku shake hands with a Cell Jr. The only majorly spoileriffic one is Vegito killing Gohan, but even then we have no idea what the context might be. (Skar once made a parody which made fun of how many different ways you could interpret Vegito holding Gohan by the throat.) When Vegito grabs Ginyu and says "I will destroy YOUR SOUL" we are less surprised than we would've been since the vision has alerted us that Vegito might be more unstable than he wants to let on. We would've thought it out-of-character otherwise. While we may lose the shock factor of Vegito killing Gohan, I think it makes Vegito's characterization more consistent. Also, the visions inform us that yes, U18 will be important later on. Imagine how frustrating the past eight months of U16 would be if we didn't have the knowledge Goku and Vegeta will be brave enough to try and stop Vegito when Bra won't. If nothing else, the visions grab people's interest. That vision of Vegito holding Gohan is probably one of the top 5 most well-known moments of DBM, if not top three. People might know jack squat about what's happened during the rounds but they still know there's a vision where Vegito's apparently killed Gohan. I only agree with your criticism about the first Bardock line: "I saw your future... and I know who will beat you" certainly has implications that make Bardock appear a little... absent minded. And yeah, that it's likely Raichi will only go so far. I think that particular dialogue line should have been skipped. One great possibility is that Bardock was just lying through his teeth to try and psyche Raichi out. Mind games are the only weapon he has left against Raichi at this point. Only one shown to care and be smart enough to keep track was U18 Vegeta, and he only kept track of his own bracket, only after all the matches before him were done. I don't think the rest of the tournament remembers (nor cares) who goes next. And that was a big assumption: he just assumed the tournament had a Tenkaichi Budokai format of brackets. These birdies might have been sneekier than he tought!
Wait a second, just wait a darn second. Was Vegeta drawing with his finger IN SOLID STONE?Holy crap. |
|
??????
|
Post by john129er on Dec 30, 2016 20:50:29 GMT
Hello, new poster here. I've been reading the forum a while and I'd like to chime in here.
I think the visions were specifically designed to get everyone (generally speaking) thinking they knew the where, when, how etc. And with the pace of the comic moving as slow as it is (even when it was three pages/week), it ramps up the theorizing. I think for the most part the visions are doing everything Salagir wanted them to do. The theorizing is a great way for people to get involved in the comic and coming back each week. "When will Vegetto go nuts?" "What makes him flip out?" "How the heck does Yamcha, of all people, have such an integral part of the finale?"
From what I've read, and I could be wrong here, there's not much variation in what most folks think is going to happen with Vegitto's rampage (I'm including the comments on the site's combox too). Salagir's got us right where he wants us. Like a magician, he's got our attention affixed in one spot, only to have him dazzle us because we weren't looking elsewhere. At least I hope so...
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Dec 30, 2016 21:01:27 GMT
Wait a second, just wait a darn second. Was Vegeta drawing with his finger IN SOLID STONE?Holy crap. A paltry feat for the Prince of all Saiyans! |
|
??????
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 21:17:37 GMT
When Bardock first said "I saw your future... and I know who you'll lose to" I thought eh, he is either talkin shit or he loses to a Saiyan as an opponent.
What if Gast talk-no-jutsu's Raichi's own Saiyan ghosts against him? Now that he has an SSJ3 Veggie that is still in mah princey pridez mode it could be a thing.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Dr. Wheelo on Jan 1, 2017 4:25:24 GMT
The only majorly spoileriffic one is Vegito killing Gohan, but even then we have no idea what the context might be. It also basically confirmed to us that Bra would get her body back from Ginyu at some point, which erased a lot of the tension from him being in her body. That was mainly what was running through my mind making this thread. I'm probably looking into it a bit too deeply, but I got some worthwhile responses that eased my concerns, so I feel the thread was worth it. When Bardock first said "I saw your future... and I know who you'll lose to" I thought eh, he is either talkin shit or he loses to a Saiyan as an opponent. What if Gast talk-no-jutsu's Raichi's own Saiyan ghosts against him? Now that he has an SSJ3 Veggie that is still in mah princey pridez mode it could be a thing. So the noble savior Gast wins his match by... talking a genocidal maniac into killing Raichi, who only became a cold extremist because those very saiyans wiped out his entire race? That's just wrong on every level. Gast is probably the only one in the tournament who has a shot at getting through to Raichi himself to some level, since they have a good deal of common ground between them. |
|
??????
|
Post by Teh Jammah on Jan 1, 2017 4:33:47 GMT
The only majorly spoileriffic one is Vegito killing Gohan, but even then we have no idea what the context might be. It also basically confirmed to us that Bra would get her body back from Ginyu at some point, which erased a lot of the tension from him being in her body. That was mainly what was running through my mind making this thread. to be fair, I don't think any of us, bar the most hopeful/delusional saw it lasting. Maybe if Ginyu hadn't been instantly caught it would have been more dramatic, but still... we have no idea when the "Vegetto isn't invincible", "YES he IS" convo is gonna happen. Could be in 2 pages, could be in 20 volumes. We don't even know for sure which Universes' Gohan he's Vader-ing. Could be U18's for all we know. The Gohan could be Ginyu... somehow... (It probably won't be, but stating for the sake of making the point) |
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on Jan 1, 2017 5:05:56 GMT
The only majorly spoileriffic one is Vegito killing Gohan, but even then we have no idea what the context might be. It also basically confirmed to us that Bra would get her body back from Ginyu at some point, which erased a lot of the tension from him being in her body. That was mainly what was running through my mind making this thread. It also basically confirmed to us that Bra would get her body back from Ginyu at some point, which erased a lot of the tension from him being in her body. That was mainly what was running through my mind making this thread. to be fair, I don't think any of us, bar the most hopeful/delusional saw it lasting. I would agree that Bra being herself in Bardock's visions isn't really a spoiler, since it's an unwritten law of Dragon Ball that any Ginyu body-change will be undone before the story is over  But good memory, Wheelo, I completely forgot about that one. |
|
??????
|
Post by Teh Jammah on Jan 1, 2017 5:43:55 GMT
I will admit I held out a VAGUE hope that the 'Bra' we saw in U3 Bardock's visons was Bra-inside-Cold (represented as 'tru-Bra' via it being her spirit) and it would be based on 'U16 Bra's SOUL' in this [SITUATION]
so where we saw U16 Bra it would be her SOUL... but in the U8 original from body
prolly cuz it made me laugh, but yeah
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Jan 1, 2017 19:32:31 GMT
I wouldn't consider the vision of Bra back in her own body as something spoiled the Ginyu plot. Not knowing when she got her body back still allowed for the potential of plot to play out in many ways. For all we knew she could have just gotten her body back in that vision. Really the current chapter itself gave us more signs the change would short and or resolve quickly than this vision did.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Xeno Black on Jan 5, 2017 8:10:38 GMT
Dr. Wheelo While it may be possible that Bardock's visions may have spoiled certain events for us, but that doesn't mean his predictions will tun out the way he sees them. Yes Bardock did say he has foresaw Raichi's defeat:  But Bardock practically said the same thing about King Cold, and look what happened to him:   Even if Raichi does lose, it does not mean he may lose his matches in the tournament, but perhaps a fight outside of a match. The Majin invasion, XXI outbreak, Ginyu's return, Vegetto's rampage, or even another Zen Buu takeover are all possible events that Raichi may participate in, and lose badly. Have patience my friend, Raichi may still win this yet (though I still want Gast to kick his ass XD).
|
|
??????
|
Post by ltsarge on Jan 7, 2017 6:18:01 GMT
I feel that so long as Salagir manages to play with our expectations, it will be fine.
Vegetto snapping Gohan's neck still WAS a big twist, we just had the twist given early, and now we want to see how it plays out to get there. I do agree that having it happen suddenly, with no big spoiler just minor foreshadowing of Vegetto's anger management, seeing Gohan get snapped snack would be huge tension with dramatic WTF payoff. Like when Bojack killed Pan U16, there was tension boiling then WHAM. However, we still did get that WHAM effect when the portent first occurred, simply cause we were suddenly mid bardock fight shown Gohan getting murdered by one of the heroes. Its just different type of WHAM.
Now back to what I said in the first line, if Salagir can play with our expectations, then we can get more out of it.
One nice way he did was the red herring of Vegetto's tantrum and confrontation with Gohan after he came back from being teleporting, making everyone think that's what we are about to witness, when actually Buu's rampage is what occurs.
In my opinion that was one of THE best handled bait and switches along with a twist that Salagir has handled in DBM. He lead us in one direction before immediately spiraling it in an entire different direction without notice, and I fucking loved it.
HOWEVER, on the other hand, knowing Bra was her own personality in the future when Vegetto goes berserk did spoil for myself and many others that Ginyu was not going to take over Vegetto's body in the last few pages. So in that regard, I think some of the panels Salagir chose for the future, like showing Bra should have been more strategic, since there was no way Ginyu possessing Vegeto was going to play out based on what we saw from the future events without requiring large plot resources to return Bra to her body from Cold's.
Hence, I think its a double edged sword, and beyond giving us some hype for future events, when Salagir plays with our expectations and then subverts it, it works. But as noted above, I think two or three panels did sort of spoil plot direction too much by the time we go to certain events.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Rafael on Jan 12, 2017 3:26:45 GMT
If Bardock saw Raichi lose to Bra then that means he already knew he himself was going to lose, because Bra could only reach that battle by facing the winner of Bardock vs Cold.
Maybe he indeed saw Raichi loosing to Bra but that doesn't mean that he would loose to Cold, he could've won against Cold(and that's what he thought when he had his vision of Cold inside the healing tank) and loose(or give up) to Bra later, so Raichi wins his fight killing Gast to get another powerful ghost and then later Bra defeats the scientist but not killing him and proving that not all Saiyans are killing machines.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 12:57:44 GMT
Maybe he indeed saw Raichi loosing to Bra but that doesn't mean that he would loose to Cold, he could've won against Cold(and that's what he thought when he had his vision of Cold inside the healing tank) and loose(or give up) to Bra later, so Raichi wins his fight killing Gast to get another powerful ghost and then later Bra defeats the scientist but not killing him and proving that not all Saiyans are killing machines.Despite beeing not all that bad I am pretty sure Bra is like the one of least fit Saiyan to prove to Raichi that not all Saiyans are killing machines. Even considering possible character development for her. I mean she already killed one of her opponents in rage and literally becomes nothing but a killing machine when she turns SSJ2. |
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on Jan 12, 2017 14:22:04 GMT
Maybe he indeed saw Raichi loosing to Bra but that doesn't mean that he would loose to Cold, he could've won against Cold(and that's what he thought when he had his vision of Cold inside the healing tank) and loose(or give up) to Bra later, so Raichi wins his fight killing Gast to get another powerful ghost and then later Bra defeats the scientist but not killing him and proving that not all Saiyans are killing machines.Despite beeing not all that bad I am pretty sure Bra is like the one of least fit Saiyan to prove to Raichi that not all Saiyans are killing machines. Even considering possible character development for her. I mean she already killed one of her opponents in rage and literally becomes nothing but a killing machine when she turns SSJ2. Not to mention that if Raichi is going to get redeemed, having Bra be the Saiyan to do it--instead of Goku, or Vegeta, or Gohan--would cause a riot in the comments section. I don't see people reacting to that with anything but "THIS IS STUPID, BRA SUCKS, WHAT A MARY SUE." |
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Jan 12, 2017 19:41:06 GMT
Despite beeing not all that bad I am pretty sure Bra is like the one of least fit Saiyan to prove to Raichi that not all Saiyans are killing machines. Even considering possible character development for her. I mean she already killed one of her opponents in rage and literally becomes nothing but a killing machine when she turns SSJ2. Not to mention that if Raichi is going to get redeemed, having Bra be the Saiyan to do it--instead of Goku, or Vegeta, or Gohan--would cause a riot in the comments section. I don't see people reacting to that with anything but "THIS IS STUPID, BRA SUCKS, WHAT A MARY SUE." Not gonna lie, I think I'd prefer even Goten (who has done absolutely nothing in the tournament) to have that job over Bra. Though if a Saiyan had to do it I'd prefer it to be Pan. |
|
