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Post by Solus on Oct 11, 2017 23:40:47 GMT
I'm not so sure about this. What I do agree with: You (and everyone else) did the math. If you look at it from this point of view, that sounds reasonable. On the other hand I'm not really sure about Base Gotenks' strength. If we assume that Fat Buu and Super Buu are equally strong (since nothing changed actually) then why would it need Gotenks SSJ3 to be on par with Super Buu, if Base Gotenks was able to defeat Fat Buu? That doesn't make sense to me. Of course, it was established that Super Buu was a better fighter than Fat Buu. But their power level should be equal and so is their resilience. Even if Base Gotenks (or even Gotenks SSJ1) was able to kick him around, he could never have killed him when Gotenks SSJ3 had difficulties to do so. That makes Piccolo's sentence very questionable. Then again, if you follow this line of thought, then Goku should have been able to finish off Super Buu. I actually see the first fat Buu as "equal" to Super Buu, but he can't access all of his power and thus is weaker than Super Buu. Super Buu has full access to them. That is, if we take his later comment seriously. I don't understand that paragraph. What has Gotenks to do with Goku? I always doubted that Goku was able to defeat Fat Buu. And in the German translation of the manga there is nothing that hints to that. No-one questioned that Gotenks was stronger than Goku at that time. The only question is by how much. And all I said was, while Fat Buu might not have the same attack points as Super Buu, he should have the same defense points, since his magic regeneration was on the same level. So even if Goku or Gotenks could absolutely dominate him in combat (which Goku at least clearly couldn't), they would have needed the same amount of energy or ki to actually kill him as for Super Buu. And only Gotenks SSJ3 might have had enough energy to do so. But clearly not base Gotenks and Goku.
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Post by Argelios on Oct 12, 2017 0:43:36 GMT
Is it a good idea to post the ranking on the comment section after Sunday's page?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 12, 2017 0:57:29 GMT
Is it a good idea to post the ranking on the comment section after Sunday's page? I'd wait until the full powers of all the majins (and the buffs) are explicitly displayed. Because then you will have people questioning whether you included it or not, or "what about with majin upgrade?" After all the ranking will need some updates with the Majin power ups anyway.
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Post by Argelios on Oct 12, 2017 1:49:19 GMT
I'd wait until the full powers of all the majins (and the buffs) are explicitly displayed. Because then you will have people questioning whether you included it or not, or "what about with majin upgrade?" After all the ranking will need some updates with the Majin power ups anyway. You are right, end of the chapter. About the "Majin upgrade", I already said it wouldn't move forward in the ranking, Salagir said something similar in the french section today. But new transformations are something else, so we better wait. Minor update because I was bored.
-Updated to current page (Bra, Kaioshins...) -Added Videl Universe 18. -Ultimate Gotenks > SSJ2 Bra. -SSJ Bra above Gast -Nappa Ozaru top tier.
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Post by iron leaf on Oct 12, 2017 10:59:38 GMT
Videl U16/18 making a rather inappropriate hand gesture. Without Videl holding the majin spectator as context the picture suggests that she is grabbing her genitals.
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Post by Argelios on Oct 16, 2017 1:26:46 GMT
AshanarkHey! I read in the English comment section that any "power" debate were forbidden, I was thinking about posting the Ranking after the chapter ends, but I think I can't anymore. I posted a beta version more than a year ago and the moderator allowed it because it wasn't just numbers and was DBM focused.
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Post by Ashanark on Oct 16, 2017 2:40:20 GMT
Ashanark Hey! I read in the English comment section that any "power" debate were forbidden, I was thinking about posting the Ranking after the chapter ends, but I think I can't anymore. I posted a beta version more than a year ago and the moderator allowed it because it wasn't just numbers and was DBM focused. Argelios, this is a darn fine piece of work, both research-wise and graphically. But we've been having a bit of a crack-down on PL discussion on the main page and trying to shift it over to the forum. We a) don't want to make an exception so soon after that and b) this would likely spark PL debates there, which we're trying to avoid. Sorry. Still think Goku and Vegeta shouldn't be higher than SS1 U16 Bra
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Post by reisen on Oct 18, 2017 9:36:08 GMT
I'd wait until the full powers of all the majins (and the buffs) are explicitly displayed. Because then you will have people questioning whether you included it or not, or "what about with majin upgrade?" After all the ranking will need some updates with the Majin power ups anyway. You are right, end of the chapter. About the "Majin upgrade", I already said it wouldn't move forward in the ranking, Salagir said something similar in the french section today. But new transformations are something else, so we better wait. Minor update because I was bored.
-Updated to current page (Bra, Kaioshins...) -Added Videl Universe 18. -Ultimate Gotenks > SSJ2 Bra. -SSJ Bra above Gast -Nappa Ozaru top tier. Why are Goten and Trunks lower than U16 Pan? Both of them as children were able to give A18 a hassle in the Tenkaichi BudÅkai before the Buu incident. And this is before they train in The Room of Spirit and Time. Shouldn't their power be in the cell game tier?
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 18, 2017 21:15:14 GMT
Because while Goten and Trunks managed to only annoy A18 a little (and both at the same time)... U16 Pan managed to annoy Bojack (Perfect Cell tier) quicker than even teen Gohan as SSJ1 did.
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Post by Xeno Black on Oct 21, 2017 8:12:30 GMT
ArgeliosI do like your SSJ2 tier reference. It paints a better picture on how strong some characters are in the DBZ times, such as if Hirudegarn is stronger or weaker than SSJ2 Teen Gohan. So what I suggest is that you add in some DBZ characters such as Teen Gohan to strengthen the tier lists with these examples. Examples include having SSJ Namek saga Goku in the SSJ Tier, and have him between Tapion and maximum kaioken Videl. But here comes the next part. Having sub-divisions in the tiers will make the list more organized, and more structured and precise, just like this pic that I ripped from Conqueror Geng. With this the power scaling becomes easier to follow, and makes it more balanced. After all having Buutenks and Ultimate Gohan in the same tier is just not right. They need to be separated with Gohan being in 7.1 while Buutenks is in 7.2. And what cool about this is that you can add in the the many forms of the various characters in both DBZ and DBM, not just their maxed states. So base Goku can be in the below SSJ tier, but his stronger forms be seen in higher tiers. Also just like Conqueror Geng has said, but Zen Buu should be in his own tier that is between 9 and 10. And the same can be applied for Broly too since both are or became stronger than SSJ2 Vegito at the end or most likely still is. And not to nitpick but ultra armor should be in the SSJ2 tier, with a armorless helolite being at the most below ssj tier.
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Post by mbg on Oct 24, 2017 16:53:52 GMT
I take the view that until we learn, very definitively, how strong Goku and Vegeta's new abilities are and what they consist of, that they be moved down. Simply put, we have no idea what those abilities might even be, and so far, neither of them have demonstrated anything beyond what they were capable of in the Buu Saga. By those standards, Vegeta ought to be at the top of Super Saiyan 2, while Goku ought to be at the top of Super Saiyan 3.
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Post by Solus on Oct 24, 2017 19:44:44 GMT
That's exactly what I'm saying but they won't listen.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 24, 2017 20:11:40 GMT
You know, this is totally right. We are debating the accuracy of Buu vs Gotenks vs. Vegetto feats, and even taking into account Buu saga and Buutenks stuff, but no one even questions anything in regard to Goku and Vegeta being so high.
Specially Vegeta. At any rate, not even Goku should be so far above Super Buu, assuming he totally maxxed out. This is still considerably below Mystic Gohans, yet all power listings take for granted not only Goku (!!) but also Vegeta is above Gohan.
Yet people are chimping out at the difference between Kid Gotenks vs. Adult Gotenks, LOL. However, jump from mid SSJ2 to above Mystic? No problem thank you.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 24, 2017 21:46:47 GMT
I agree with the thoughts on putting Goku and Vegeta down. I think we can all agree (and have in the past) that as of right now they've displayed nothing that they couldn't have already done in the Buu saga. While they certainly have the potential to have grown beyond the Buu saga in the intervening years and Vegeta has directly stated that he's saving his true strength for his battle with Goku...until they can actually show what they're made of we have to accept they just aren't that high. Goku should be pushed down to the SS3 tier and Vegeta subsequently the SS2 tier until otherwise proven they can go beyond their Buu saga limits.
EDIT: For the sake of removing a bit of clutter I'd suggest removing hypotheticals as well and sticking to what we know for sure. Maybe even have a separate chart just for hypothetical power ups and such.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 25, 2017 10:27:23 GMT
There's plenty of evidence in the novelisation that Goku and Vegeta are far beyond their Buu saga levels, but currently we've only seen Vegeta use SS2 and Goku use SS3. As much as im personally rooting for them i can't deny that even in the forms they've shown so far there's nothing to suggest that they're above this as they've yet to really be challenged.
For now maybe putting Vegeta in top SS2 tier and Goku in the top of SS3 tier will be sufficient, but with a disclaimer something along the lines of "Currently displayed strength only"
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Post by Solus on Oct 25, 2017 17:58:00 GMT
Finally! But that opens another can of worms. Where do we put the other contestants with unknown power? Consequently we'd have to put Gast on SSJ3 Level, since he seemed to be on par with Vegeta, while he is very likely stronger than that. But he didn't show something above that level (since we have no comparison how strong Hatchyak was). We also have to put Cell down to SSJ2 level (which I wouldn't like at all). But fairly considered, Cell did nothing to prove that he is above that level. He shat out a very strong SSJ2 Cell Jr., he himself said he would be incomparably stronger than during the Cell Games (which could also refer to his initial strength before his Zenkai) and he received the Majin Boost. All of that indicates that he has risen to the level we assume him to be on. But as of now we have no prove of that.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Oct 25, 2017 19:33:03 GMT
Finally! But that opens another can of worms. Where do we put the other contestants with unknown power? Consequently we'd have to put Gast on SSJ3 Level, since he seemed to be on par with Vegeta, while he is very likely stronger than that. But he didn't show something above that level (since we have no comparison how strong Hatchyak was). We also have to put Cell down to SSJ2 level (which I wouldn't like at all). But fairly considered, Cell did nothing to prove that he is above that level. He shat out a very strong SSJ2 Cell Jr., he himself said he would be incomparably stronger than during the Cell Games (which could also refer to his initial strength before his Zenkai) and he received the Majin Boost. All of that indicates that he has risen to the level we assume him to be on. But as of now we have no prove of that. Agreed. That would also apply to Bra as we've yet to see her max power, and of course even someone like Gotenks is hard because why he's technically SS3 level he's only been compared to Zen Buu, who's full strength is also unknown. The best we have is the statement that when he powered up it felt like Vegito and Broly at the start of their fight, which was only SS1 Vegito level. Surely he's alot higher but again we don't actually know. Cell, Gast, Goku and Vegeta are the biggest mysteries though so far. If we're going to re-scale them based on what we know, not whats implied or statements in the novelisation then Cell and Vegeta would be SS2 Tier, and Goku and Gast would be SS3 level. We all 'know' it's higher then that, but so far we've yet to be given any in-comic proof.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 25, 2017 20:36:38 GMT
Finally! But that opens another can of worms. Where do we put the other contestants with unknown power? Consequently we'd have to put Gast on SSJ3 Level, since he seemed to be on par with Vegeta, while he is very likely stronger than that. But he didn't show something above that level (since we have no comparison how strong Hatchyak was). We also have to put Cell down to SSJ2 level (which I wouldn't like at all). But fairly considered, Cell did nothing to prove that he is above that level. He shat out a very strong SSJ2 Cell Jr., he himself said he would be incomparably stronger than during the Cell Games (which could also refer to his initial strength before his Zenkai) and he received the Majin Boost. All of that indicates that he has risen to the level we assume him to be on. But as of now we have no prove of that. Cell already proved he's far above SSJ2 in this current page. Bad thing is, he was already Majin. He survived a Blast from Mystic Gohan. That would have utterly obliterated anyone beneath SSJ3 if received directly. Also, an indirect display of power of Cell was breeding a Cell Jr stronger than Majin Vegeta. it will be really weird to merely put Cell in SSJ2 tier whereas his Juniors are also in SSJ2 tier?
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Post by Argelios on Oct 25, 2017 22:46:34 GMT
Xeno BlackI think adding DBZ characters into the DBM chart would change its purpose, also between tiers would make everything convoluted. But I can make "Tier References" for al Tiers. Like extras!...... Coming soon?? Ultra armor's Ultra waver ball is enough to kill any SSJ2 Tier, the armor also has a stronger attack: "Super weaver" . So SSJ3 Tier I think is accurate. About no armor Heloites: You are right, but is Salagir's fault. @about GOKU AND VEGETA
I was thinking the same since last week, even if Goku and Vegeta give us hints to think they are equal to Gohan, they haven't fully show it (yet). But Vegeta at SSJ2?? Hmmm, we also have to take into consideration dialogue, Vegeta in the novel was not even surprised when Prince Vegeta reached SSJ3, we also know he has a "new form" "better than SSJ3" , I think we can say he is at least TOP SSJ3 Tier. (Or higher) If we only use 100% proven levels, as Solus pointed out, I would have to change Cell, Gast, Krilin, Tien, Videl, Androids, Pan, Daimaoh...... one or two levels up/down. (Waste of time) ... so I will put them both at the bottom of Mystic Tier, next update (I'm too busy right now, damn you final exams) AxalonThe only hypothetical are Gogeta and Raditz, should I remove them?
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Post by Axalon on Oct 25, 2017 23:08:09 GMT
But Vegeta at SSJ2?? Hmmm, we also have to take into consideration dialogue, Vegeta in the novel was not even surprised when Prince Vegeta reached SSJ3, we also know he has a "new form" "better than SSJ3" , I think we can say he is at least TOP SSJ3 Tier. (Or higher) If we only use 100% proven levels, as Solus pointed out, I would have to change Cell, Gast, Krilin, Tien, Videl, Androids, Pan, Daimaoh...... one or two levels up/down. (Waste of time) ... so I will put them both at the bottom of Mystic Tier, next update (I'm too busy right now, damn you final exams) Is it a waste of time if the results are more accurate though? I was talking more than just purely speculated like those two in all honesty. I think even roughly speculated levels like Goku, Vegeta or whoever should be averaged down to what we know. If they move up in a later chapter released 2 years from now, they move up. If not they stay where they are. But if nothing else I think Gogeta and Mystic Raditz in particular should be removed for the moment. For all we know Raditz could be a tier higher than predicted or barely edge out Frieza, and the uncertainty of Goku and Vegeta's strength casts a shadow over Gogeta's for the moment.
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