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Post by supergojita3 on Jul 25, 2019 22:38:54 GMT
Hold up that kid was cannon? Holy shit for years I thought that was a filler scene. Damn, I wonder if the kid died to Super Buu’s attack or Kid Buu blowing up the planet. I’m not gonna lie. I wished the kid met up with Mr. Satan and survived the whole thing and became Mr. Satan’s adopted son or apprentice. I don’t think the kid has any family and it would have been nice for Mr. Buu to have him around. And there's another individual more who was healed by Buu: You're thinking of the other healing method, which only heals small wounds like bullet wounds. The whole body regeneration beam only works on babadi. @skar Well, its assumed he could. Provided his core remains, he can regenerate. He did dump all his ki into his earth shattering kamehameha, regenerate, and then bulk up to the ussj power weighted form beyond ussj, which is a ki chugging form. He then proceded to continue fighting until gohan kicked 18 out of him, so if his regeneration consumed ki, he should have been unable to regenerate at all. How much ki should he have left if his whole body is destroyed? He should have been unable to regenerate at all considering he dumped all his ki into 1 big ki attack, grew into a ki chugging form beyond ussj, got his ass kicked by a pissed off 11 year old, down graded into his 2nd form, spent all his ki by self destructing, and then regenerated despite not having any ki left at all, like 3x over. It could very well be a plot hole at this point that he could go on to do the things he did, he already regenerated without the core earlier, so another one wouldn't too difficult to imagine. Then theres gohans base form being enough to propel him to roughly 80% of cells power as a ssj, and 160% as a ssj2, making the 5% margin with ease, and cell zenkais to whatever power to challange ssj2 gohan. AS to the cell birthing method, it states in the daizenshuu that each one has power around cells. "Birthing Cell Juniors First Appearance: Chapter 406 Category: ability People: Cell Special Characteristics: This is a technique where Cell, after reaching his perfect form, creates children with the same abilities as him from out of his tail that he has to absorb life energy. Cell can freely control the number of children created. Each of the children then has roughly the same amount of power and speed as Cell. This special ability could be said to be a developed version the Namekian Piccolo’s ability to create offspring. (Daizenshuu 2, p.214)" It's the guide book again, so take it with a grain of salt. compare it to the namekian style, which is vastly different, as well as piccolos demon clan style of children. "Birthing an Egg First Appearance: 137 Category: special People: Piccolo Daimao, Saichourou Special Characteristics: A technique where they birth an egg from their own mouth, increasing their offspring. It’s the special characteristic of the Dragon Clan, who as Namekians are not divided into male or female. Piccolo Daimao birthed Demon Clan members who he used as his underlings, as well as a duplicate of himself engraved with his own memories, who could be called his child. Saichourou of Planet Namek birthed over 100 children in his lifetime. When birthing eggs, Piccolo Daimao chanted “Pokopen, pokopen, daare ga tsutsuita…” (Daizenshuu 4, p.49, p.50)" Piccolos birthing method required eggs, and they were all demons who looked nothing like him, and dragon clansmen also use eggs. This style uses up a portion of the users life span, where as cells was just like "lol. they're all around my power." I would file this under hax abilities, due to being the main villain of the arc. I do disagree that the jrs were "around" his level, but maybe 1/3 to 1/2 his power, so as to give the ssj a challange and to play with the rest. Sure it is. vegeta is canonically at 24,000. Zarbon is around 23,000. Give or take the margin of error, its around 5%. Zarbon is stronger than dodoria, who is stronger than cui, who was equal to or around 18,000 vegeta. Vegeta was 25% stronger than cui and 1 shotted him. As we climb the charts before 24,000, that difference is adjusted accordingly. 20,000 would make zarbon 16% weaker. 21,000 would be 13% 22,000 is a 10% advantage 23,000 would put zarbon at a 5% disadvantage. So even if we high ball the difference, vegeta needs a 16% advantage over cell to curb stomp him, and to one shot like he did with dodoria. A 5% advantage allows him to effortlessly bat him away like he did with zarbon. The manga proves this with vegetas power and cuis power with all estimates between til we get to what zarbon is. I don't know about that. assj was not a big power up after all, considering it was dropped, found to be inferior after the fact, and ssj was decidedly a better form, and when goku decided to ditch assj in favor of regular ssj, his power increased through mastery of the form and actual combat training. Assj had a big drawback that was ki consumption. So it could be managed, but it still took its toll. ussj even more so. assj was more of a flash in the pan style transformation. It did offer a large power up, but its bulky form limited mobility, and while it didn't take away speed, its speed increase was less so than say ssj2. Though, at this point a 2x power up would still be massive. WE don't know what ssj gohans power was, but its probably in the billions. then you double a few billion and thats still a big number. Then you put into the mix ki attacks and their multipliers, thats an even bigger number. If kid buu doubled his power, that'd be massive on top of his already ssj3 tier power. AS to whether or not the ssj levels are accurate in reality, I don't really have an answer. Potara power multipliers came from the guide books too, and that turned out to be wrong, though thats more of a retcon. So I'd like to make the distinction that I use the official ssj levels out of convenience, not necessarily out of a strong belief for them through obligation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 1:43:44 GMT
Yes, he has many quotes, some seem outright like he's asserting there are hard multipliers and others that multipliers are just an idea to indicate a great increase between levels and they are not married into whatever the base happens to be. Overall from reading all of them, I'm pretty sure it's the latter. I noticed ashanark posted basically everything I've been stating about the multipliers a couple years ago in the dbz power level thread. As always, he does a much better job of articulating this case than I ever could. I agree but I don't think Salagir would need an exact hard multiplier to have a general idea of how much stronger each form would be. Some anime series have a class or tier system like DBM. While the author isn't thinking in exact power levels, they usually have some idea of the difference between each tier. A few characters from one tier could team-up against someone from the next but they're going to have more difficulty against an opponent a few tiers ahead. Salagir gave two multipliers for SSJ2 to get the point across that it was much stronger than SSJ1 but I believe it makes a difference on how this battle plays out depending on which one he chose for the comic. Well, its assumed he could. Provided his core remains, he can regenerate. He did dump all his ki into his earth shattering kamehameha, regenerate, and then bulk up to the ussj power weighted form beyond ussj, which is a ki chugging form. He then proceded to continue fighting until gohan kicked 18 out of him, so if his regeneration consumed ki, he should have been unable to regenerate at all. I'm just going by what was shown in the manga. It was said that Cell lost energy when he regenerated from Goku's attack which we know happens to the Nameks when they regenerate. He was able to get a Zenkai due to his Saiyan DNA. When we put these two together, it's possible he lost some energy due to regeneration but the Zenkai was big enough that it more than made up for the wasted energy so he was still stronger than before. If regenerating parts of his body cost energy, I'm assuming that creating entirely new beings would also require some energy. I'm aware of the small percentage differences earlier on the Freeza saga but Toriyama didn't use those increases in power for the rest of the saga or even before that. Captain Ginyu was a few times stronger than the other Ginyu Force members while Freeza was over 4x stronger than Ginyu in his first form and that was only a tiny percentage of Freeza's full power. Nothing dictated they needed to be that much stronger than each other but Toriyama went with that to show there was a big difference between them. Nothing dictates that ASSJ needed to be only 5% stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell. Sure, Toriyama could decide that but it doesn't seem likely. Vegeta assumed he could take on Cell after letting him absorb #18. Vegeta underestimated how much Cell's power would increase but at the very least Vegeta should know that Cell would be adding #18's power to his own. Vegeta is arrogant but not stupid to think he could take on Cell when his power goes up by at least a 1/3 if Vegeta is barely a tiny percentage stronger. ASSJ was deemed inferior not because it was a tiny power-up but because Goku found that mastering SSJ would increase his power more. When FPSSJ Goku powered up to only 50% in front of Korin, everyone on the lookout was shocked including Vegeta and Trunks. Goku went from weaker than one of the cyborgs to more than twice as strong as Trunks' USSJ. Goku didn't need to more than 2x stronger but Toriyama went with that to show a huge difference mastering SSJ would make. If ASSJ and USSJ increased their power by less than 2x, would it really take that much of a toll on them? Characters could amplify their techniques by more than that before it takes a toll on them like Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon against Raditz and Goku using 4x Kaioken on Earth. Freeza's full power took a toll on him because it was several times stronger than his reduced forms. If we're not trying to make it fit with the 2x multiplier and only look at other energy consuming techniques and transformations in the manga, it points to ASSJ and USSJ being more than 2x regular SSJ.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jul 26, 2019 3:23:14 GMT
Yes, he has many quotes, some seem outright like he's asserting there are hard multipliers and others that multipliers are just an idea to indicate a great increase between levels and they are not married into whatever the base happens to be. Overall from reading all of them, I'm pretty sure it's the latter. I noticed ashanark posted basically everything I've been stating about the multipliers a couple years ago in the dbz power level thread. As always, he does a much better job of articulating this case than I ever could. I agree but I don't think Salagir would need an exact hard multiplier to have a general idea of how much stronger each form would be. Some anime series have a class or tier system like DBM. While the author isn't thinking in exact power levels, they usually have some idea of the difference between each tier. A few characters from one tier could team-up against someone from the next but they're going to have more difficulty against an opponent a few tiers ahead. Salagir gave two multipliers for SSJ2 to get the point across that it was much stronger than SSJ1 but I believe it makes a difference on how this battle plays out depending on which one he chose for the comic. Well, its assumed he could. Provided his core remains, he can regenerate. He did dump all his ki into his earth shattering kamehameha, regenerate, and then bulk up to the ussj power weighted form beyond ussj, which is a ki chugging form. He then proceded to continue fighting until gohan kicked 18 out of him, so if his regeneration consumed ki, he should have been unable to regenerate at all. I'm just going by what was shown in the manga. It was said that Cell lost energy when he regenerated from Goku's attack which we know happens to the Nameks when they regenerate. He was able to get a Zenkai due to his Saiyan DNA. When we put these two together, it's possible he lost some energy due to regeneration but the Zenkai was big enough that it more than made up for the wasted energy so he was still stronger than before. If regenerating parts of his body cost energy, I'm assuming that creating entirely new beings would also require some energy. I'm aware of the small percentage differences earlier on the Freeza saga but Toriyama didn't use those increases in power for the rest of the saga or even before that. Captain Ginyu was a few times stronger than the other Ginyu Force members while Freeza was over 4x stronger than Ginyu in his first form and that was only a tiny percentage of Freeza's full power. Nothing dictated they needed to be that much stronger than each other but Toriyama went with that to show there was a big difference between them. Nothing dictates that ASSJ needed to be only 5% stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell. Sure, Toriyama could decide that but it doesn't seem likely. Vegeta assumed he could take on Cell after letting him absorb #18. Vegeta underestimated how much Cell's power would increase but at the very least Vegeta should know that Cell would be adding #18's power to his own. Vegeta is arrogant but not stupid to think he could take on Cell when his power goes up by at least a 1/3 if Vegeta is barely a tiny percentage stronger. ASSJ was deemed inferior not because it was a tiny power-up but because Goku found that mastering SSJ would increase his power more. When FPSSJ Goku powered up to only 50% in front of Korin, everyone on the lookout was shocked including Vegeta and Trunks. Goku went from weaker than one of the cyborgs to more than twice as strong as Trunks' USSJ. Goku didn't need to more than 2x stronger but Toriyama went with that to show a huge difference mastering SSJ would make. If ASSJ and USSJ increased their power by less than 2x, would it really take that much of a toll on them? Characters could amplify their techniques by more than that before it takes a toll on them like Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon against Raditz and Goku using 4x Kaioken on Earth. Freeza's full power took a toll on him because it was several times stronger than his reduced forms. If we're not trying to make it fit with the 2x multiplier and only look at other energy consuming techniques and transformations in the manga, it points to ASSJ and USSJ being more than 2x regular SSJ. >I'm just going by what was shown in the manga. As am I. Cell regenerated with nearly no ki whatsoever after taking massive damage and downgrading to an inferior form. It was shown that he could do so with very little ki. His ki dropping is either a plot hole, a plan by cell to throw the other fighters off by lowering his own ki as a ploy, or something else entirely. >I'm assuming that creating entirely new beings would also require some energy. This assumption is based off of the notion that cells regeneration does require energy. After cell regenerated, it was discovered that he was holding back the whole time. If anything, he should have been the same level, so its again, a plot hole, a ploy by cell to throw off the z fighters, or something else. Cell regenerated from his core with no energy at all. So even if he did get a zenkai, where did the energy come from? All other zenkais were from healing tanks, senzus, or dende healing a saiyan from near death. Even goku had a senzu bean in the hospital and zenkai'd himself in space with senzus. Cell did it on his own, and neither piccolo or freeza can regenerate lost ki. so cells regeneration is infact a unique property he has that is greater than the sum of his parts. piccolos regeneration was stalled by piercing damage, and from prolonged battles. Cell had prolonged battle damage, lack of ki and stamina, and blew himself up to the point he was just a core. Clearly his abilities are greater than a mere namekians. His perfect form has hax powers above his dna donors. I'd go so far to say if 1st form cell tried to regenerate from his core, in that condition, he'd die. If he created a cell jr in his 1st form, I'd say he'd lose stamina and have to take a break. His life span could be shortened like piccolos. His perfect form is called that for a few reasons, namely its superior to his other forms, he's complete. Perfect is defined as per·fect adjective /ˈpərfikt/ 1. having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be. "life certainly isn't perfect at the moment" A synonym such as "ultimate" is used in the google definition. He should be the greatest, the ultimate in terms of abilities, he has all the best traits of his dna, and none of the drawbacks. He's an anime villain, and is able to do whatever the writer wants. His hax abilities are only surpassed by majin buu, who has unlimited regeneration and can't be damaged over time unless another buu hurts him. Cell is essentially a lesser majin buu. His limits are not defined other than mere strength. If we take dbs into account he should be capable of surpassing ssjg in 4 months and ascending to a golden form. a form beyond perfection. cell isn't limited to what his dna donors could do. He's the quintisential final boss archetype. His abilities really are over powered. >Nothing dictated they needed to be that much stronger than each other but Toriyama went with that to show there was a big difference between them. Well, ginyu never fought freeza. WE saw zarbon fight vegeta with a 5-10% disadvantage. As did nappa vs piccolo, with a 10% advantage and won handily each time. The big difference in power is just that. A massive gulf to show how much stronger he is. >Nothing dictates that ASSJ needed to be only 5% stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell. He didn't need to be 5% stronger. He could have been 5% stronger, 10% or any number stronger really. You're assuming the difference has to be 5% when its not the set finite difference. 5% is the minimum difference required, where as assj vegetas base form could have been 3x 18, and then stack a 30% power up on top of it, even if cell was 2x 17 by virtue of adding his power on top of his own, vegeta would still have the advantage by far. vegeta likely assumed he would merely add 18's power on top of his 2nd forms power, and even then he'd have a 30% advantage. We don't know what vegetas power advantage was over cell, but it must have been enough to give him the impression cells power up wouldn't be enough to catch up. he was wrong to be sure, even vegeta wasn't satisfied by the assj forms power. >t points to ASSJ and USSJ being more than 2x regular SSJ. So with trunks assertion of the power being unsatisfactory, thats why vegeta trained further. despite only taking 2 months to get assj, he realized the forms shortcomings. So it looks like he buffed up his base form a bit after all, but the 2 didn't train together, so that makes sense that they wouldn't increase as much as goku and gohan.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 5:49:12 GMT
He should be the greatest, the ultimate in terms of abilities, he has all the best traits of his dna, and none of the drawbacks. He's an anime villain, and is able to do whatever the writer wants. I agree that Cell's inherited traits are far beyond his donors but he has some limitations and still can suffer from energy loss. Cell accepted the Senzu bean from Goku and it had a noticable effect on him. If he could regenerate infinitely and doesn't lose power, he could've gloated about how perfect he was and didn't need it. Also, this idea that Cell's inherited traits are superior would contradict the 2x multiplier. I said in an earlier comment that if initial SSJ2 Gohan is only twice as strong as his SSJ1 then have to fit FP Perfect Cell, Super Perfect Cell, and the weakened SSJ2 Gohan within that tiny gap. You're claiming that Cell is better than his donors but has to get one of the smallest Zenkais in the series for this to work. My point was that those tiny percentage differences were only against the low level opponents of that saga and doesn't reflect most battles and definitely not major battles. Goku's next opponent after Jeice and Burter was a few times stronger than them. Freeza powered-up to 50% to fight Goku and Goku needed to multiply his power by 20. Vegeta turned Oozaru and multiplied his power by 10 after Goku almost defeated him by multiplying his power with Kaioken. Raditz was stronger than Goku and Piccolo combined and they needed a super concentrated technique to kill him. If Vegeta could increase his base power by 3x during that training of trying to surpass SSJ, why he would bother wasting his time training in an energy draining form that barely increases his power by 30%? Let's be honest, there's no way any of us would come to this conclusion based on just the manga or anime. Anyone watching this scene for the first time would immediately assume Vegeta got a lot stronger. How much stronger? Enough that it would be worth his while to keep training the form despite its drawbacks. I don't know why the need to reevaluate the manga to make the 2x multiplier work. It should be the other way around and they could've went with a random higher multiplier that doesn't require further explanation to make sense of it. The SEG also had SSJ3 as 4x SSJ2. What happened during the Buu saga that lead to the conclusion SSJ3 was 4x and not 2x or some other number? The SEG is less reliable than the Daizenshuu that came out shortly after the manga ended and not years later. They had kid Goku with a PL of 10. He was trained by one of the strongest humans on Earth, could survive being shot, kill a giant fish with his bare hands, etc and only twice as strong as an overweight average human? Same with Nappa's PL. Vegeta said Nappa would stand a chance if he calmed down and that was after witnessing Goku's power. Goku said "this might take a while" after realizing the Kamehameha barely did any damage to Nappa. If base Goku was really twice as strong as Nappa, that would've been about the same difference as between Goku and Recoome and the battle would've been over in one hit. I think the guidebooks are useful for behind-the-scenes information and interviews but I don't think they're reliable for much else.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jul 27, 2019 0:42:35 GMT
He should be the greatest, the ultimate in terms of abilities, he has all the best traits of his dna, and none of the drawbacks. He's an anime villain, and is able to do whatever the writer wants. I agree that Cell's inherited traits are far beyond his donors but he has some limitations and still can suffer from energy loss. Cell accepted the Senzu bean from Goku and it had a noticable effect on him. If he could regenerate infinitely and doesn't lose power, he could've gloated about how perfect he was and didn't need it. Also, this idea that Cell's inherited traits are superior would contradict the 2x multiplier. I said in an earlier comment that if initial SSJ2 Gohan is only twice as strong as his SSJ1 then have to fit FP Perfect Cell, Super Perfect Cell, and the weakened SSJ2 Gohan within that tiny gap. You're claiming that Cell is better than his donors but has to get one of the smallest Zenkais in the series for this to work. My point was that those tiny percentage differences were only against the low level opponents of that saga and doesn't reflect most battles and definitely not major battles. Goku's next opponent after Jeice and Burter was a few times stronger than them. Freeza powered-up to 50% to fight Goku and Goku needed to multiply his power by 20. Vegeta turned Oozaru and multiplied his power by 10 after Goku almost defeated him by multiplying his power with Kaioken. Raditz was stronger than Goku and Piccolo combined and they needed a super concentrated technique to kill him. If Vegeta could increase his base power by 3x during that training of trying to surpass SSJ, why he would bother wasting his time training in an energy draining form that barely increases his power by 30%? Let's be honest, there's no way any of us would come to this conclusion based on just the manga or anime. Anyone watching this scene for the first time would immediately assume Vegeta got a lot stronger. How much stronger? Enough that it would be worth his while to keep training the form despite its drawbacks. I don't know why the need to reevaluate the manga to make the 2x multiplier work. It should be the other way around and they could've went with a random higher multiplier that doesn't require further explanation to make sense of it. The SEG also had SSJ3 as 4x SSJ2. What happened during the Buu saga that lead to the conclusion SSJ3 was 4x and not 2x or some other number? The SEG is less reliable than the Daizenshuu that came out shortly after the manga ended and not years later. They had kid Goku with a PL of 10. He was trained by one of the strongest humans on Earth, could survive being shot, kill a giant fish with his bare hands, etc and only twice as strong as an overweight average human? Same with Nappa's PL. Vegeta said Nappa would stand a chance if he calmed down and that was after witnessing Goku's power. Goku said "this might take a while" after realizing the Kamehameha barely did any damage to Nappa. If base Goku was really twice as strong as Nappa, that would've been about the same difference as between Goku and Recoome and the battle would've been over in one hit. I think the guidebooks are useful for behind-the-scenes information and interviews but I don't think they're reliable for much else.
>If he could regenerate infinitely and doesn't lose power, he could've gloated about how perfect he was and didn't need it.
He could, but then again, he could also just take the bean anyway because it wouldn't have changed anything in his mind.
Like, I could give myself a handicap, and still beat my opponent, or I could go all out and just waste them. Freeza was giving his opponent a handicap by not using his arms, but goku drove him to use his hands, but in reality he still could have done so had he used his 100% power and one shotted him, all without using his arms. Freeza ended up just dropping that degree of show boating and decided to toy with goku in other ways.
Cell, being a warrior who has no qualms about taking any advantage for himself just took the bean and ate it. He could have killed them all with no trouble as he was holding back.
Not only was he suppressed, but he could have bulked up like assj vegeta or 100% freeza.
So, what we have here is an issue where cells regeneration is infinite, but maybe not infinite stamina in terms of ki attacks. But perhaps his stamina recovery is enhanced.
So, what do I mean by "enhanced stamina recovery".
Lactic acid is produced in your muscles and builds up during intense exercise. It can lead to painful, sore muscles. Lactic acid buildup due to exercise is usually temporary and not cause for a lot of concern, but it can affect your workouts by causing discomfort.
99% of humans have stamina concerns when working out, and this build up of lactic acid is why you get tired from running, or swimming too hard. Cramps can occur when this build up is present, and is attributed to common fatigue.
Though some humans have a disorder or immunity to this lactic acid or don't produce any at all. Thus they could run a marathon at a full sprint and not feel tired at all, as though they were just getting started.
Cell, being a monster created by a mad doctor, could in theory have a similar ability, considering his core regenerated him from nothing.
So while cell had shown himself to be "tired" from regenerating from gokus attack, he might have regenerated his ki back quickly in part of his design specs in his perfect form.
So, an example I might use might be like the regen magic spell in final fantasy 6. Most monsters don't recover any hp on their own as a set special ability, and most don't recover when poisoned. So an example of a special monster could be one who has automatic hp recovery with auto regen, auto poison and poison absorbtion. A high stamina count could see the numbers grow high to close to 9999 recovery every so often. So even if the party is doing damage every hit, the damage is negated quickly.
Cell is essentially taking damage, and recovering from it, and heals said damage almost right away.
He had shown similar capabilities after dumping all his ki into his terra kamehameha, and had it deflected back at him, he was damaged and had to regenerate. So he did, but he used all his ki to make that ki attack, so how did he recover? The core replenishes his body, so perhaps it also replenishes his ki as well. We see his stamina being nearly uneffected after this by virtue of him bulking up to a ultra form beyond ussj which is a ki chugging form. He then goes to attack gohan further, and only stops because he was kicked so hard he lost 18. Had he not had 18 in him, he'd likely have continued until gohan got tired and just killed him in 1 shot.
So, no I don't think the senzu had a long term effect on cell, so much as it just healed damage and stamina he was going to get back anyway. Cell might not produce lactic acid, but even if he did, his core just heals him regardless.
>You're claiming that Cell is better than his donors but has to get one of the smallest Zenkais in the series for this to work.
Are we talking percent? or just straight up billions of points?
Because if we go by percent, sure. But it wouldn't change the fact he powered up enough to go from pipsqueek compared to gohan to a mountain of power equal to him.
Not all zenkais were huge, and all the zenkais were small at first. Vegeta only gained a few thousand, while cell gained over a billion probably. Thats not small, thats huge. And while zenkais stopped for saiyans who got ssj, cell continued to power up either due to not being a ssj, or because he has no limit to the amount of zenkais he can get.
Theres also the "active threat" theory for zenkais, which is a fan theory that suggests that most zenakis powered up the saiyan body to best the guy who beat him, or was scared of.
Lets look at vegetas zenkais.
1st one put him at 24,000, which is how much gokus power was with a 3x kaioken. and possibly 4x after taking damage from the kaioken exertion.
Then he got beat by zarbons monster form, and he powered up to the point he beat him.
Then he was beat down by recoome, and while this ones a bit iffy, he was aware of ginyus presence. so he powered up enough to best jeice with ease. I suppose his zenkai powered him up between freeza and ginyu.
After fighting ginyu, jeice and so on, he must have exerted himself abit. he had just eaten a senzu after recoome kicked his ass, and was tired from fighting 2 ginyu members. So he fell asleep. I'm not counting this as a zenkai, but his last one put him around freeza, but not quite.
The next one was after gauging freezas 3rd form, so he powered up enough to face off against the 3rd form, but not the 4th.
Any discrepancies in this theory could spring from a few things, namely it beign a coincidence, and toriyama flubbing a few details.
But we do see how zenkais have propelled saiyans to get stronger from facing down strong opponents.
Gokus zenakis put him at 90,000 from several zenkais in space. But he jumped from 90k to 3 million when he was in the healing tank. I'm guessing because he felt freezas power up to the 4th form.
Cell jumped to ssj2 gohan level, either by coincidence, or the active threat theory. I'm willing to chalk it up to conicidence, but the active threat suggestion makes for a good idea.
>My point was that those tiny percentage differences were only against the low level opponents of that saga and doesn't reflect most battles and definitely not major battles. Goku's next opponent after Jeice and Burter was a few times stronger than them.
he was 3x stronger than them, but according to ginyu who heard jeces testimony, he gauged him at 60,000. so the feat of beating them with ease was a feat of being 2x stronger. less probably, more like 1.5x, 1.8x what have you as they were better than 30,000 so as to beat vegeta who was clocked in at 30,000 by the scouters.
This doesn't refute the idea that a fighter only needs a slim margin to be better to the point they win with ease. Compare zarbon to goku vs jeice.
Vegeta was winning handily, but it wasn't as though he were appearing invisible nearly the whole time in terms of speed. He was able to guage zarbons movements, and just counter everything so as to not take damage and just crush him with offense.
Goku who was showing a feat of about double the opponents strength was able to effortlessly dodge and could 1 shot them. Vegeta was clearly dominating, but it wasn't 1 shotting.
>Freeza powered-up to 50% to fight Goku and Goku needed to multiply his power by 20. Vegeta turned Oozaru and multiplied his power by 10 after Goku almost defeated him by multiplying his power with Kaioken. Raditz was stronger than Goku and Piccolo combined and they needed a super concentrated technique to kill him.
I'm not sure I see the point. goku at 90,000 was nothing to ginyu, and he even measured him out to be at "about 85,000" and he was damn close too, but a simple 2x multiplier made him too much for ginyu to handle, to the point he was terrified. this is a 33% difference. he didn't need to be 3x stronger than ginyu, just that was more than enough to make the fight one sided.
So lets assign a percent to ssj gohan of cells true 100% power. Hypothetically, using ginyu vs goku as bar, seeing as a 33% is an obvious dominating force.
so lets say gohan is 80% of cell. Thats a 20% difference, and gohan is also too timid to fight and inflict serious damage. cell also has hax powers. So of course cell wins.
Double that and he now has a 60% advantage over cell, more than the 33% that terrified ginyu by almost double.
>If Vegeta could increase his base power by 3x during that training of trying to surpass SSJ, why he would bother wasting his time training in an energy draining form that barely increases his power by 30%?
Well, I would think that any advantage can be made to use. I didn't need to use potential unlocked in xenoverse 2, but it helped despite not adding much to my stats.
super vegeta 2 added 17% to my ki attack stat. I liked just the design, the esthetic of it. And you're forgetting that its not just 30%, it'd be 30% on top of the 50x power up of ssj. so it'd be more like 65x power.
And while that does seem like a low number, your forgetting ki attacks, such as the final flash which would amplify his ki by 3x or more on top of it. gokus ki attack on radditz was like a 2.5x increase, so final flash would be more than that.
Any advantage can be optimized, if you min max your build. Vegeta was probably planning to wipe out cell the way he did, but he miscalculated cells power when in his perfect form, and his regeneration.
>Let's be honest, there's no way any of us would come to this conclusion based on just the manga or anime.
Some people might. Some people are crazy math nerds, and those nerds did the math on how much power people had when the 2 guys fought, and realized how slim the margins really were.
>I don't know why the need to reevaluate the manga to make the 2x multiplier work.
I'm really not. I'm just using the percents given to us by the anime and manga, and seeing if it could work. So far it does. Many a curb stomp happened from a slim margin less than double the power.
nappa had the whole z team beat, despite being outnumbered, and a small gap in strength. Piccolo only had a 500 power gap!
Vegeta had a 5% advantage, and won handily.
Recoome was around 30,000 and beat vegeta with ease, to the point krillin remarked his ki was almost the same after tanking vegetas attack.
Gokus power vs ginyu was around a 33% advantage.
I'm not re-evaluating it, It is my evaluation on the numbers given vs the other guys number.
I think the problem here is that we're looking at the multiplier, and not the number being multiplied.
a 2x power up can mean quite a bit more if the number is already huge. Goku tripled his power vs vegeta and curb stomped him with a mere 25% advantage.
gohans power was already great, but he lacked the inclination to use it, but as a ssj2 he surpassed cell by a certain amount, and had the inclination to do great harm.
>My point was that those tiny percentage differences were only against the low level opponents of that saga and doesn't reflect most battles and definitely not major battles.
As for major battles, ssj goku vs freeza was 150 million to 120 million. thats about a 20% margin of difference, and the manga depicts this battle as mostly one sided with ssj goku doing 90% of the offence. The anime depicted this with a bit more of an even battle with no one as the clear strongest, but the manga has goku shrug off freezas attacks and state "not bad freeza" where as the anime ko's goku so gohan can come back.
So even for major battles, a slim margin made it easy for goku to over whelm freeza, with freeza geting just a few good hits in, and this is a tired goku who just turned ssj. I'd say freeza was a bit tired too, but less tired than goku. It was still pretty 1 sided in the manga. Goku even retorts back after freeza boasts about his attack being just a warm up and says "good. I'd be disapointed if that was all you had".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2019 6:39:47 GMT
supergojita3 So, no I don't think the senzu had a long term effect on cell, so much as it just healed damage and stamina he was going to get back anyway. Cell might not produce lactic acid, but even if he did, his core just heals him regardless. If Cell didn’t need to eat a Senzu bean to replenish his power, Toriyama could’ve had him mention that or simply not bother drawing the scene of Goku offer him one. What do you think an author like Toriyama was probably be thinking at the time: “Cell loses some of his energy regenerating from Goku’s Kamehameha. Goku gives him a Senzu bean so that Cell could recover his power. At full power, Cell is strong enough to spawn seven children each as powerful as SSJ Vegeta.” Or “Cell didn’t actually lose any energy regenerating from Goku’s Kamehameha so Goku was wrong and I didn’t think it was important enough to have Cell correct him. Goku gives him a Senzu bean even though Cell doesn’t need one but I’ll have him eat it anyway and not point out that his power would return on its own. Cell created seven Cell Jrs despite being much weaker than their total power perhaps due to a trait he inherited that was enhanced by Gero or some other reason but certainly not that he was simply strong enough to spawn them with his own power”. I was talking about the proportionate increase for the Zenkai. This active threat theory only means that Cell powered-up enough to challenge SSJ2 and doesn’t give us any idea how much. Cell had the most severe injury out of any Saiyan since his entire body was blown and would’ve died if he didn’t have also have Namekian DNA. If SSJ2 had a higher multiplier, Cell’s Zenkais would be much higher and make more sense since we also agreed his inherited traits like Zenkais are superior to his donors. Trying to make it work with the 2x multiplier is the only reason you would be forced to assume it’s proportionately one of the smallest Zenkais but you also had to come up with an additional theory to help explain it. It’s still 30% more than the form Vegeta already had. The lowest power-up we’ve seen for a transformation was Zarbon’s monster form that increased his power by about 30%. I don’t recall that form having any drawbacks. All transformations and techniques that did drain power at the very least made the user 2x stronger like with Kaioken and Freeza doubling his power from his first to second form. Even then, Kaioken only took a serious toll when Goku multiplied it more than that and Freeza when he kept transforming further. What I was saying that if someone tried to take a guess how much stronger ASSJ was compared to regular SSJ based on only the manga and comparing it to other energy consuming forms, it would have to be over twice as strong. If their goal was intentionally to come up with the absolute most conservative multiplier for SSJ2, that’s the only way they would get 2x. The 50x multiplier was an estimate based on SSJ having to be at least higher than a Kaioken x40. That was something presented in the manga and they used that to form their conclusion. The 2x multiplier requires us to do the opposite since we have no idea how they came up with that based anything from the Cell saga. I’m not arguing that it’s impossible because you can choose the lowest percentage differences to make it fit but it needs something backing it up from the Cell saga for it to be more than just a random number someone at Shueisha decided on. What I’m arguing that I think it’s unlikely Toriyama had this in mind and that anyone would really assume it’s that low based on only viewing the Cell Games. Oozaru didn’t need to be 10x base and Vegeta could’ve still had an advantage if it was much lower. For whatever reason, Toriyama decided that the form should have a significant power-up. Oozaru is a form that is accessible to any Saiyan as long as they have a tail while SSJ2 is the next level of the legendary transformation that few Saiyans have ever achieved in history. It seems likely he envision SSJ2 as also being a huge power-up. Goku was confident that Gohan’s hidden potential was strong enough to take on Cell and that was after Goku Kamehameha failed. The Kamehameha should’ve been at least twice Goku’s power based on much it went up by in the past.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jul 27, 2019 14:18:35 GMT
Give it a rest, Shifty McShiftface. I see you're still upset so let's review the facts: If you look closely, Yamcha's arms are still intact therefore this would not be sufficient proof that Bra could regrow her arm. supergojita3 So, no I don't think the senzu had a long term effect on cell, so much as it just healed damage and stamina he was going to get back anyway. Cell might not produce lactic acid, but even if he did, his core just heals him regardless. If Cell didn’t need to eat a Senzu bean to replenish his power, Toriyama could’ve had him mention that or simply not bother drawing the scene of Goku offer him one. What do you think an author like Toriyama was probably be thinking at the time: “Cell loses some of his energy regenerating from Goku’s Kamehameha. Goku gives him a Senzu bean so that Cell could recover his power. At full power, Cell is strong enough to spawn seven children each as powerful as SSJ Vegeta.” Or “Cell didn’t actually lose any energy regenerating from Goku’s Kamehameha so Goku was wrong and I didn’t think it was important enough to have Cell correct him. Goku gives him a Senzu bean even though Cell doesn’t need one but I’ll have him eat it anyway and not point out that his power would return on its own. Cell created seven Cell Jrs despite being much weaker than their total power perhaps due to a trait he inherited that was enhanced by Gero or some other reason but certainly not that he was simply strong enough to spawn them with his own power”. I was talking about the proportionate increase for the Zenkai. This active threat theory only means that Cell powered-up enough to challenge SSJ2 and doesn’t give us any idea how much. Cell had the most severe injury out of any Saiyan since his entire body was blown and would’ve died if he didn’t have also have Namekian DNA. If SSJ2 had a higher multiplier, Cell’s Zenkais would be much higher and make more sense since we also agreed his inherited traits like Zenkais are superior to his donors. Trying to make it work with the 2x multiplier is the only reason you would be forced to assume it’s proportionately one of the smallest Zenkais but you also had to come up with an additional theory to help explain it. It’s still 30% more than the form Vegeta already had. The lowest power-up we’ve seen for a transformation was Zarbon’s monster form that increased his power by about 30%. I don’t recall that form having any drawbacks. All transformations and techniques that did drain power at the very least made the user 2x stronger like with Kaioken and Freeza doubling his power from his first to second form. Even then, Kaioken only took a serious toll when Goku multiplied it more than that and Freeza when he kept transforming further. What I was saying that if someone tried to take a guess how much stronger ASSJ was compared to regular SSJ based on only the manga and comparing it to other energy consuming forms, it would have to be over twice as strong. If their goal was intentionally to come up with the absolute most conservative multiplier for SSJ2, that’s the only way they would get 2x. The 50x multiplier was an estimate based on SSJ having to be at least higher than a Kaioken x40. That was something presented in the manga and they used that to form their conclusion. The 2x multiplier requires us to do the opposite since we have no idea how they came up with that based anything from the Cell saga. I’m not arguing that it’s impossible because you can choose the lowest percentage differences to make it fit but it needs something backing it up from the Cell saga for it to be more than just a random number someone at Shueisha decided on. What I’m arguing that I think it’s unlikely Toriyama had this in mind and that anyone would really assume it’s that low based on only viewing the Cell Games. Oozaru didn’t need to be 10x base and Vegeta could’ve still had an advantage if it was much lower. For whatever reason, Toriyama decided that the form should have a significant power-up. Oozaru is a form that is accessible to any Saiyan as long as they have a tail while SSJ2 is the next level of the legendary transformation that few Saiyans have ever achieved in history. It seems likely he envision SSJ2 as also being a huge power-up. Goku was confident that Gohan’s hidden potential was strong enough to take on Cell and that was after Goku Kamehameha failed. The Kamehameha should’ve been at least twice Goku’s power based on much it went up by in the past. >“Cell loses some of his energy regenerating from Goku’s Kamehameha. No stamina was recorded as being lost on producing the jrs though. Are we to assume he lost so much energy from regenerating his body while holding back, but lost no stamina from regenerating his whole body, and none from his birthing method? It could be chalked up to a plot hole that he regenerated his whole body and was at full power, or that cells regeneration without the core takes up energy. And if he has infinite regeneration with the core, maybe he simply donated a portion of his core to make the jrs, and it grew back like a persons liver can regenerate. Or its just a plot hole. Either way, he wasn't mentioned to have lost any stamina. Vegeta creating the moon ball was mentioned to have lost stamina in the process of the creation of the technique. Then theres piccolo daimao who in his prime created drum with no discernable stamina loss. Piccolo created a life form that was about half of his power, and then went on to fight at full power vs goku. Cell, who has piccolos dna and superior regeneration could make people at half his power with no discernable ki drop. >I was talking about the proportionate increase for the Zenkai. Hmmm. Considering no saiyan zenkai was in the billions of points and was at most a few million, even just addign a billion would in theory be like 1.5x-2x, but that would still be huge considering the prior zenkais were small in some cases being less than 2x in some cases. I never saw zankais as being a multiplier, but as a plot device mechanic that made fights more interesting, but they always evened out the fights. So in the case of vegeta, his zenkais only got huge in terms of a "multiplier" after hisfight with recoome and freeza. It was like a 5x multiplier and the like. He went from around 1st form freeza to like around 2.5 million. A 2x multiplier might seem small, but thats his 1st zenkai. His zenkais could get even bigger if they persisted just as vegetas did. VEgeta only got 25% stronger after his 1st zenkai. soa 2x multiplier is still bigger than that. his jump from 24 to around 30k was a mere 20%. Still not a 2x increase. It was only after that did the zenkais get much bigger in terms of "multiplier". So while its not the biggest leap in terms of percent, its in the middle. in theory, all other zenkais should get bigger after that one. >The lowest power-up we’ve seen for a transformation was Zarbon’s monster form that increased his power by about 30%. I don’t recall that form having any drawbacks. And that 30% made it possible for him to go from getting his ass kicked by vegeta to clearly dominating that fight. Any advantage you can get is useful. as for it not draining ki, it wasn't a mere buff up form like freezas or vegetas. It was much like freeza going to a new form and beign its own stable mode of battle like his 2nd form. It was a form that has no drawbacks and was used so as to conserve ki until it was needed. And its not just the ussj form that does it. freezas bulky form did the same thing. >If their goal was intentionally to come up with the absolute most conservative multiplier for SSJ2, that’s the only way they would get 2x. I don't think that was the goal. I'm thinking the manga worked out that way by accident. Toriyama, with his use of power levels, made huge advantages unnecessary, and hadn't made it that way on purpose, but it does seem to work that way. >Oozaru didn’t need to be 10x base and Vegeta could’ve still had an advantage if it was much lower. Thats true. it being 10x was as much over kill as goku being a ssjb sparring against krillin. But he did it anyway. Though, to be fair, I would think goku as a ssjb was a test for himself and really isn't the same thing. Even so, in hind sight, vegeta probably didn't even need oozaruu, because goku was maxed out and wasn't able to use his full power anymore. his base form was too weak to go to 24,000 anymore, so vegeta could in theory have beaten him in his base form. the 10x power up was way over kill. >It seems likely he envision SSJ2 as also being a huge power-up And it is. Going from your base form to a stable 100x power up is still pretty big. 50x is still a mole hill compared to that, and the last kaioken level is just a mere 20x. a 100x increase is still quite massive compared to the ant that is the persons base form. >Goku was confident that Gohan’s hidden potential was strong enough to take on Cell and that was after Goku Kamehameha failed. Right. And based on the evidence so far, you only need a small margin to be better than the other guy. so this isn't refuting the 100x multiplier. And theres still other factors besides the 100x increase, theres rage boosts, ki multipliers for attacks, and so on. So all in all, while I have no issue with ssj2 being more than 100x, I personally use it for my own subjective approach to viewing dbz, as nothing really refutes it, but nothing asserts it couldn't be more than that. It could very well be more than 100x, I just don't see it that way and I don't even mind salagir as such using a 10x increase for ssj2 and 10x for ssj3. And I certainly don't mind you using a different model than my own. What is your view on the ssj levels?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2019 17:05:16 GMT
Alright, we don't need spoiler tags anymore since I moved it to it's own thread. No stamina was recorded as being lost on producing the jrs though. Are we to assume he lost so much energy from regenerating his body while holding back, but lost no stamina from regenerating his whole body, and none from his birthing method? No, you only have assume spawning Cell Jrs didn't cost him any energy because you're trying to keep his power-up as minimal as possible. I'm assuming it cost him some energy but that he was strong enough that it wouldn't affect his performance. Going by the last two final battles, Vegeta increased his power by 10 and Freeza by more than that. All I'm assuming is that Toriyama would also have big jumps in power during the climactic battle of the following saga which doesn't require any additional theories to explain how Cell could spawn seven Cell Jrs if he's barely twice as strong as one of them. Obviously Cell wouldn't be increasing his power by only a few million since his power would barely rise by 1%. You brought up the theory that Cell's inherited traits were superior but then argued that Cell's Zenkai was proportionately one of the smallest. Does this theory only apply when it's trying to support the 2x multiplier but not when it contradicts it? My point was that the smallest power-up for a transformation we've seen was for Zarbon who was a henchmen that had no notable drawbacks from his transformation. Once again the same question. If someone is only looking at the manga, are they going to assume ASSJ increased Vegeta's power-up by only as much as Zarbon or are they going to compare it to other power consuming transformations? I'm talking about the fans. The only way a fan could come to the conclusion that SSJ2 was 2x SSJ is if their goal was intentionally to come up with the most conservative multiplier possible. They wouldn't be basing it on anything presented in the Cell saga. You've basically been arguing "Shueisha gave a 2x multiplier. If I go back and interpret each battle in the Cell saga using only the absolute lowest possible power differences given in the series and some additional theories, I can make this work". If someone ignored the guidebooks, they could still come to the conclusion that SSJ was at least 40x base by only looking at the manga. The same can't be said about the other multipliers since we have no idea what evidence Shueisha was using to come up with these numbers. Show me something from the Cell Games that would at least imply this isn't a random number they decide on. I'm obviously talking about a big power-up over SSJ1 since that was the form he was fighting in prior to going SSJ2. The lowest power-up for a Saiyan was 10x for Oozaru so it's not farfetched that Toriyama would envision each SSJ transformation as increasing their power by at least that much. All of Gohan's previous rage boosts were far more than two times his power. SSJ2 was presented as the next level of SSJ and not just a temporarily power-up in the same form. Also, Goku wouldn't have any reason to give up against Cell if Cell was less than twice as strong. We've already established that techniques could concentrate their power by more than 2x so another attempt at a concentrated attack from Goku should've been enough to kill Cell.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jul 27, 2019 20:20:21 GMT
Alright, we don't need spoiler tags anymore since I moved it to it's own thread. No stamina was recorded as being lost on producing the jrs though. Are we to assume he lost so much energy from regenerating his body while holding back, but lost no stamina from regenerating his whole body, and none from his birthing method? No, you only have assume spawning Cell Jrs didn't cost him any energy because you're trying to keep his power-up as minimal as possible. I'm assuming it cost him some energy but that he was strong enough that it wouldn't affect his performance. Going by the last two final battles, Vegeta increased his power by 10 and Freeza by more than that. All I'm assuming is that Toriyama would also have big jumps in power during the climactic battle of the following saga which doesn't require any additional theories to explain how Cell could spawn seven Cell Jrs if he's barely twice as strong as one of them. Obviously Cell wouldn't be increasing his power by only a few million since his power would barely rise by 1%. You brought up the theory that Cell's inherited traits were superior but then argued that Cell's Zenkai was proportionately one of the smallest. Does this theory only apply when it's trying to support the 2x multiplier but not when it contradicts it? My point was that the smallest power-up for a transformation we've seen was for Zarbon who was a henchmen that had no notable drawbacks from his transformation. Once again the same question. If someone is only looking at the manga, are they going to assume ASSJ increased Vegeta's power-up by only as much as Zarbon or are they going to compare it to other power consuming transformations? I'm talking about the fans. The only way a fan could come to the conclusion that SSJ2 was 2x SSJ is if their goal was intentionally to come up with the most conservative multiplier possible. They wouldn't be basing it on anything presented in the Cell saga. You've basically been arguing "Shueisha gave a 2x multiplier. If I go back and interpret each battle in the Cell saga using only the absolute lowest possible power differences given in the series and some additional theories, I can make this work". If someone ignored the guidebooks, they could still come to the conclusion that SSJ was at least 40x base by only looking at the manga. The same can't be said about the other multipliers since we have no idea what evidence Shueisha was using to come up with these numbers. Show me something from the Cell Games that would at least imply this isn't a random number they decide on. I'm obviously talking about a big power-up over SSJ1 since that was the form he was fighting in prior to going SSJ2. The lowest power-up for a Saiyan was 10x for Oozaru so it's not farfetched that Toriyama would envision each SSJ transformation as increasing their power by at least that much. All of Gohan's previous rage boosts were far more than two times his power. SSJ2 was presented as the next level of SSJ and not just a temporarily power-up in the same form. Also, Goku wouldn't have any reason to give up against Cell if Cell was less than twice as strong. We've already established that techniques could concentrate their power by more than 2x so another attempt at a concentrated attack from Goku should've been enough to kill Cell. >No, you only have assume spawning Cell Jrs didn't cost him any energy because you're trying to keep his power-up as minimal as possible. Demon king piccolo in his prime spawned a demon with a close power to his own. It cost him seemingly nothing. Cells reproduction should function similarly, but better due to his superior biology. They didn't mention him dropping any ki, when they did with gokus kamehameha. Piccolos spawning method doesn't seem to drop ki, but rather their life expectation. The other drawback to piccolos birthing method is that he feels pain when his off spring die or some other feeling akin to discomfort. >you're trying to keep his power-up as minimal as possible. Thats not what I'm going for. I'm saying it could work, not that it MUST be as low as possible. so far nothign refutes it, and the math works with what the canon power levels assert. >Does this theory only apply when it's trying to support the 2x multiplier but not when it contradicts it? I didn't really think it was a multiplier for a zenkai. If we go by the jump in power, he gained a billion or more, not a few million. You're assuming it is a multiplier, when its never been shown to be multiplicative in any capacity. Zenkais were a plot device, but if we did assess the power increase, it was a few thousand until it hit a wall with a few million for saiyans. Cell gained a billion. Thats enormous. Zenkais aren't like kaioken, they have a system that increases strength in a seemingly random fashion. Kaioken will always multiply by 2, and x3 will always be x3. Zenakis increased by a certain percentage less than x2 for most and weren't seemingly multipliers at all, and the increases were random and never consistant. > If someone is only looking at the manga, are they going to assume ASSJ increased Vegeta's power-up by only as much as Zarbon or are they going to compare it to other power consuming transformations? I was more or less comparing it to freezas bulky form, which only bulked up when he was around 70% to 75%. Freeza actually can control his battle power unlike most grunts, but can't sense ki. his "full power" didn't bulk him up til about 70% it could have been more, but I'm assuming high balling it was 70% and his 100% form added that 30% on top of his already impressive power. This is where I got my 30% estimate from for assj because it follows a similar build of just bulking up, which cell mocks ussj trunks for doing a common power up theme. Vegeta who was around 1st form freeza was out paced by freezas x2 increase, to the point he was defenseless. At half of freezas power he was no match for him. Now replace freeza here with ssj2 gohan, and vegeta with cell, and the power gap might be around the same. its one sided in both cases. >The only way a fan could come to the conclusion that SSJ2 was 2x SSJ is if their goal was intentionally to come up with the most conservative multiplier possible That seems like a bit of a strawman argument. I'm only using the official multipliers out of convenience. If toriyama said they were more like 10x for each stage up I'd be ok with that. So far nothing refutes the more conservative estimates. > If someone ignored the guidebooks, they could still come to the conclusion that SSJ was at least 40x base by only looking at the manga This is true. but they'd on;y have to look at the power gap from earlier fights to say he'd only need a slim margin to be superior. So 40x would make them equal, and any more would put goku on top for sure. >Show me something from the Cell Games that would at least imply this isn't a random number they decide on. I can show you the whole manga and the scaling and cells powerless ness. Look above. Vegeta who was around 1st form freeza was out paced by freezas x2 increase, to the point he was defenseless. At half of freezas power he was no match for him. Now replace freeza here with ssj2 gohan, and vegeta with cell, and the power gap might be around the same. its one sided in both cases. Ginyu was shitting bricks at the sight of a guy who had a 33% advantage over him. Even if gohan was only 33% more powerful, this gap is large enough to terrify the opponent, who knows how strong his opponent really is. So far, a 2x gap, and a smaller gap of 33% were resulting in a one sided fight, and terror for the guy having to take it on. Vegeta even attacks freeza from behind (ignore the dbs plot hole for a moment) with either a generic ki blast or his galik gun, and it did nothing. A standard ki blast would be around his base form, but it looks like the galik gun based on his hand gestures, so its a more powerful attack. Being 2x stronger really made vegeta too weak to do anything. So if we scale the fight between cell and gohan you only have to switch the people, and give them the same gap in strength and you get a similar result. >it's not farfetched that Toriyama would envision each SSJ transformation as increasing their power by at least that much. Its not a proven scenario though. It could very well be a 10x power up and the guide books could be wrong too. Theres a few things the guide books were wrong on, and those things include dbs retcons and a few others. My argument isn't suggesting that the guide books are 100% correct, but that I only use them for my own convenience. >Also, Goku wouldn't have any reason to give up against Cell if Cell was less than twice as strong. We've already established that techniques could concentrate their power by more than 2x so another attempt at a concentrated attack from Goku should've been enough to kill Cell. Not exactly. we don't know gokus true power vs cell. We only know that gohan was stronger than him, and that cell was stronger than both. Goku gave up after cell regenerated. Had the "core" not become a plot hole and what not, goku could have won that fight. So had the plot armor not been so strong, cell could have in fact lost, by being too over confident and lowering his power to match gokus.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2019 23:53:34 GMT
Demon king piccolo in his prime spawned a demon with a close power to his own. It cost him seemingly nothing. Cells reproduction should function similarly, but better due to his superior biology. They didn't mention him dropping any ki, when they did with gokus kamehameha. Piccolos spawning method doesn't seem to drop ki, but rather their life expectation. The other drawback to piccolos birthing method is that he feels pain when his off spring die or some other feeling akin to discomfort. In Chapter 137, Piano said “if you expend any more energy spawning a brood” which means that it does cost King Piccolo some energy to have children. After regaining his youth, King Piccolo didn’t acquire any new birthing abilities and all we know is that his power rose so giving birth would use up less of his energy. This is the only evidence to go on since we never see another Namek give birth. It’s possible Cell does the same thing but expends less of his own energy due to the bigger power difference between him and his children. I never claimed Zenkais were an exact multiplier. Goku and Vegeta’s final Zenkais in the Freeza saga were so big that their power multiplied. This was Cell’s only Zenkai so Toriyama might go with a more impressive proportionate increase than some of the lowest Zenkais of the Freeza saga. Cell said “I greatly powered up like Son Gohan” and Gohan said “Cell’s power increased more than I thought”. If you’re reading these quotes, your immediate assumption is that Cell came back only 20-30% stronger? I can only see someone assuming that if they’re trying to make it a conservative Zenkai but I don’t think that would be anyone’s first thought. ASSJ was similar but Freeza’s form wasn’t treated as an actual transformation and only his full power in his original form. ASSJ and USSJ weren’t just powering up in regular SSJ since Saiyans had to actually figure out how to achieve them. Unlike Freeza, Vegeta had the choice of two transformations to train in. He could’ve continued training in SSJ like he was doing before the Android saga rather than spend the majority of his time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber training in ASSJ which consumed more power. Sure, he was a little more than twice as strong as Vegeta in his 2nd form but that was Freeza’s first power-up of many in that saga and nowhere near the highest. We see something similar with Imperfect Cell who was about equal to #16 before defeating him as Semi-Perfect Cell. Freeza’s largest power-ups were in his final form which is what I'm arguing also happened to Cell. How is that a strawman? You literally said that some math nerds might be able to come up with a 2x multiplier on their own. I’m saying the only way I could see them doing that if they’re intentionally trying to go with the absolute lowest possible multiplier for SSJ2. Before the SEG, I’ve never seen a fan believe that SSJ2 could be that low whether it’s old threads on Kanzenshuu or early power level sites. When Salagir first revealed his estimated multipliers for DBM, I don’t recall anyone arguing they were too high. The only time I’ve ever seen someone consider the idea of a 2x multiplier was after Shueisha released the SEG in 2009. Even then, I’ve never seen anyone offer an explanation as to how Shueisha came up with 2x specifically and they only try to make it work because the company that owns the rights to the manga decided on that number. Once again, you’re only choosing to look at the smallest percentages differences given in the series and ignoring the fact that every previous major battles had bigger jumps in power. I’ve pointed that out multiple times but you keep acting like these small percentages reflect every single battle in Dragonball. I’m asking you for evidence from the Cell saga that leads you to believe Toriyama decided on conservative jumps in power and not the bigger ones he used in other final battles. Since you’re using the most conservative estimates, SSJ Goku can’t be that much weaker than SSJ Gohan. That means SSJ2 Gohan would only be 2-3x stronger than SSJ Goku at most and full power Perfect Cell would be less than twice as strong. Going by your own numbers, Goku would stand a chance against Cell if he could use a more concentrated attack. This isn’t what happened during the Cell Games since Goku thought Gohan’s hidden potential was their only hope. You didn’t my comment about Gohan’s rage boosts always being above 2x his power so I wanted to hear your thoughts on that. SSJ2 is presented as more than just a temporary power-up in the same form so I find it hard to believe Toriyama would envision it as increasing Gohan’s power by less than any of his earlier rage boosts did.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jul 28, 2019 2:03:44 GMT
Demon king piccolo in his prime spawned a demon with a close power to his own. It cost him seemingly nothing. Cells reproduction should function similarly, but better due to his superior biology. They didn't mention him dropping any ki, when they did with gokus kamehameha. Piccolos spawning method doesn't seem to drop ki, but rather their life expectation. The other drawback to piccolos birthing method is that he feels pain when his off spring die or some other feeling akin to discomfort. In Chapter 137, Piano said “if you expend any more energy spawning a brood” which means that it does cost King Piccolo some energy to have children. After regaining his youth, King Piccolo didn’t acquire any new birthing abilities and all we know is that his power rose so giving birth would use up less of his energy. This is the only evidence to go on since we never see another Namek give birth. It’s possible Cell does the same thing but expends less of his own energy due to the bigger power difference between him and his children. I never claimed Zenkais were an exact multiplier. Goku and Vegeta’s final Zenkais in the Freeza saga were so big that their power multiplied. This was Cell’s only Zenkai so Toriyama might go with a more impressive proportionate increase than some of the lowest Zenkais of the Freeza saga. Cell said “I greatly powered up like Son Gohan” and Gohan said “Cell’s power increased more than I thought”. If you’re reading these quotes, your immediate assumption is that Cell came back only 20-30% stronger? I can only see someone assuming that if they’re trying to make it a conservative Zenkai but I don’t think that would be anyone’s first thought. ASSJ was similar but Freeza’s form wasn’t treated as an actual transformation and only his full power in his original form. ASSJ and USSJ weren’t just powering up in regular SSJ since Saiyans had to actually figure out how to achieve them. Unlike Freeza, Vegeta had the choice of two transformations to train in. He could’ve continued training in SSJ like he was doing before the Android saga rather than spend the majority of his time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber training in ASSJ which consumed more power. Sure, he was a little more than twice as strong as Vegeta in his 2nd form but that was Freeza’s first power-up of many in that saga and nowhere near the highest. We see something similar with Imperfect Cell who was about equal to #16 before defeating him as Semi-Perfect Cell. Freeza’s largest power-ups were in his final form which is what I'm arguing also happened to Cell. How is that a strawman? You literally said that some math nerds might be able to come up with a 2x multiplier on their own. I’m saying the only way I could see them doing that if they’re intentionally trying to go with the absolute lowest possible multiplier for SSJ2. Before the SEG, I’ve never seen a fan believe that SSJ2 could be that low whether it’s old threads on Kanzenshuu or early power level sites. When Salagir first revealed his estimated multipliers for DBM, I don’t recall anyone arguing they were too high. The only time I’ve ever seen someone consider the idea of a 2x multiplier was after Shueisha released the SEG in 2009. Even then, I’ve never seen anyone offer an explanation as to how Shueisha came up with 2x specifically and they only try to make it work because the company that owns the rights to the manga decided on that number. Once again, you’re only choosing to look at the smallest percentages differences given in the series and ignoring the fact that every previous major battles had bigger jumps in power. I’ve pointed that out multiple times but you keep acting like these small percentages reflect every single battle in Dragonball. I’m asking you for evidence from the Cell saga that leads you to believe Toriyama decided on conservative jumps in power and not the bigger ones he used in other final battles. Since you’re using the most conservative estimates, SSJ Goku can’t be that much weaker than SSJ Gohan. That means SSJ2 Gohan would only be 2-3x stronger than SSJ Goku at most and full power Perfect Cell would be less than twice as strong. Going by your own numbers, Goku would stand a chance against Cell if he could use a more concentrated attack. This isn’t what happened during the Cell Games since Goku thought Gohan’s hidden potential was their only hope. You didn’t my comment about Gohan’s rage boosts always being above 2x his power so I wanted to hear your thoughts on that. SSJ2 is presented as more than just a temporary power-up in the same form so I find it hard to believe Toriyama would envision it as increasing Gohan’s power by less than any of his earlier rage boosts did. > which means that it does cost King Piccolo some energy to have children. That was old piccolo, not young piccolo. And the issue was about accelerating his age. The only thing I could see being the key difference between them is that it takes less exertion as a prime namekian than an aged namekian, much like how it takes no exertion for me to run up the steps in my prime, but as an old man it could exert me to being winded and tired doing the same thing. My age can make the diffference in ease. Had piccolo been too young I could see him having the ame difficulty in birthing a child, and with him being in his prime he has that capacity to do this with ease as he had done with drum later. He wasn't tired, or at all fatigued in his prime form from birthing a kid, where as old piccolo had lots of issues performing. kind of like how an old man might have issues, uh getting it up in his 80's, where as a guy in his 30's could perform with no issues. Piccolo states outright he's at full power, and this is after birthing a warrior close to his power. He had no issues doing so in his prime and was still able to fight at his full strength. Birthing a child had no effect on him when he was in his prime. His eternal youth probably negated any aging effect on him, and he didn't take long at all to make drum, and wasn' straining to make him like before when he was old. >It’s possible Cell does the same thing but expends less of his own energy due to the bigger power difference between him and his children. Less certainly. He would likely inherit prime piccolos birthing method, and improves upon it like he did with regeneration. So with young piccolo in his prime not having any issues with birthing a demon, cell in his perfect form should have less issue creating a jr at about half or a 3rd of his power. I don't kow how strong goku is in comparison to his full power, but if goku is like half, he didn't really need to make all the jrs equal. They might have been, but I see no reason to think cell would have any issue birthing a jr than piccolo.\ in his prime. >I never claimed Zenkais were an exact multiplier. They really aren't a multiplier at all. its an increase in power and isn't a set finite amount. When people think of a multiplier, they think in terms of 2x, 3x, etc. vegeta went from 18k to 24k. thats less than 2x. he did equal gokus 24k with the triple kaioken whiuch is where the "active threat" theory for zenkais came from. I don't see zenkais as a strict multiplier, but it does increase the users power to match some of the threats they faced. >Goku and Vegeta’s final Zenkais in the Freeza saga were so big that their power multiplied. This is actually somewhat incorrect. Its close, but I do need to make some minor corrections to this assertion. Suppose we were going by the idea that it simply "added" the power to them as opposed to a multiplying agent. It's a matter of semantics on this case. If you added 2 to 2, you increased it to 2, but you could also say it was multiplied by 2, and get the same result. It means the same thing in this regard. Goku went from 90k and had 3 million added to his power level. Seeing as we don't know the mechanics to zenkais, we can't say a multiplier is the power increase mechanic. In this way its different than kaioken, in which it is a multiplier. So is oozaruu. Zenkai is a biological function and not a transformation, seeing as cell can use it and isn't able to go ssj or oozaruu (yet. give dbs time) So while jumping from 500k to 2.5 million might seem like it multiplied his power by 5x, it also had the effect of adding 2 million to his power level. So it might either be a multiplier or an added boost to match the threat percieved by the saiyan. Now, because we see smaller zenakis grow into larger zenakis its not an impossibility to assume cells zenkai only started out as big as it was because he still has room to grow. His next theoretical zenkai could push him to ssj3 levels if pushed far enough by a foe. and thats not taking into account his freeza dna giving him power beyond ssjg. So given the smaller zenkais of the earlier arcs, I would say his zankais could jump from a "2x" power up to even bigger ones. The 1st one was a 33% jump, to a 25% jump for vegeta. Cell had a whole "2x" power up or you could say it added a billion, which would would have the same effect of doubling his ki. Going by dbm logic, I saw brollys ki double vs vegetto, and vegeta was shocked at the huge increase. So I think the issue with it being 2x is a bit off, as a 2x increase could be inconsequential or massive depending on whos doubling their ki. Freeza doubled his ki and it was considered a massive power up at the moment. Goku doubled his ki vs ginyu and he was terrified of it with only having a 33% advantage. To say he "only doubled his power" is a bit of an over statement. >I greatly powered up like Son Gohan” and Gohan said “Cell’s power increased more than I thought”. If you’re reading these quotes, your immediate assumption is that Cell came back only 20-30% stronger? I can only see someone assuming that if they’re trying to make it a conservative Zenkai but I don’t think that would be anyone’s first thought. And thats not whats in contention, not in my mind. He was already more powerful than most z fighters aside from gohan. He simply matched ssj2 gohans power. Gohans base form was already much larger than the others so to power him up to double his power would still be massive. >that Cell came back only 20-30% stronger? Thats a strawman argument. I didn't suggest 20-30%. If he doubled his ki thats still massive much like in the context of brolly doubling his ki. Its an already huge power that just doubled. This is non canon and a fan manga so keep in this in mind, but if the power shown is already huge and unstoppable comes back and doubled, its still a threat to reckoned with. >ASSJ was similar but Freeza’s form wasn’t treated as an actual transformation and only his full power in his original form. It is a transformation though. It transformed him from a small slim guy to a buff bulky guy. Its just not a unique transformation. Anyone can do it. "a change like that is easy to attain" >Sure, he was a little more than twice as strong as Vegeta in his 2nd form but that was Freeza’s first power-up of many in that saga and nowhere near the highest. He doesn't need to be any stronger. At the time he was 2x stronger and had a huge advantage. He was nearly invincible. Only piccolo and enraged gohan could scratch him. >Freeza’s largest power-ups were in his final form which is what I'm arguing also happened to Cell. Cell also powered up, sure but that doesn't mean that power scaling goku vs a suppressed cell has any real bearing on the matter. Freeza was also suppressed and had toyed with goku, only being challanged by his kaioken x20. and after that fell through he was back to toying with him. cell, while suppressed, fought with goku evenly because he was suppressed. Gohan, who was also stronger than goku stepped up but did less as a ssj, due to his gentle nature as a pacifist. I don't know what gohans power was in comparison to cells, we just know it surpassed him as a ssj2, and going by the rest of the series and scaling it with the other fights, he'd only need a 5% advantage to overwhelm him like vegeta did to zarbon, but I'd have to say it was more than that, so maybe around 80% of cell, so as to give him the advantage over gohan, and then as a ssj2 he's now 60% stronger, which is still a huge margin if we go by the percentages established in canon fights. >You literally said that some math nerds might be able to come up with a 2x multiplier on their own. They could, sure. but it could be more and have the same effect. Gokus doubling was enough to scare the crap out of ginyu. >When Salagir first revealed his estimated multipliers for DBM, I don’t recall anyone arguing they were too high. I'm not complaining either. It could be x2 or x10 for ssj2 and I'd be ok with either. I'm just saying a x2 multiplier is quite possible, given the math used in canon. Ginyus terror in the face of a x2 kaioken for example. >I’ve never seen anyone offer an explanation as to how Shueisha came up with 2x specifically and they only try to make it work because the company that owns the rights to the manga decided on that number. I never knew I had to. I just used the math given by the manga. A x2 increase isn't impossible, and a x10 increase would have the same results, a curb stomp by gohan. >I’m asking you for evidence from the Cell saga that leads you to believe Toriyama decided on conservative jumps in power and not the bigger ones he used in other final battles. What evidence is there that it is bigger? You keep asking me to prove it isn't x100 for ssj2, and you have yet to use evidence from the manga to assert an instance that a guy needed an advantage greater than 2x to win. You're asking me to prove a negative, which is a type of logical fallacy. "Proving a negative A negative claim is a colloquialism for an affirmative claim that asserts the non-existence or exclusion of something.[10] The difference with a positive claim is that it takes only a single example to demonstrate such a positive assertion ("there is a chair in this room," requires pointing to a single chair), while the inability to give examples demonstrates that the speaker has not yet found or noticed examples rather than demonstrates that no examples exist (the negative claim that a species is extinct may be disproved by a single surviving example or proven with omniscience). The argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy. There can be multiple claims within a debate. Nevertheless, it has been said whoever makes a claim carries the burden of proof regardless of positive or negative content in the claim. A negative claim may or may not exist as a counterpoint to a previous claim. A proof of impossibility or an evidence of absence argument are typical methods to fulfill the burden of proof for a negative claim." So in the context of the positive assertion, in terms of positive proof, I can make the claim that a guy with a 10% advantage can win with ease. I merely need to point to zarbon vs vegeta. Thats an example of proof. Now if I wanted to prove that the ssj2 is a set 100x power up, I don't have a single manga panel to use, but the guide book suggests it. This isn't a set in stone concrete example of proof, not am I asserting it to be. Its just my own personal view that I use out of convenience. If you were to prove that it is a x500 or whatever multiplier, there is no set in stone example EG "his power just increased ten fold" or anything like that. Theres no proof in the manga ssj2 is x2 multiplier, but I never claimed it was for certain. You're claiming it is bigger than x2 and while I don't mind this insinuation, theres also no proof to it either. It's essentially a stale mate. But I was never trying to convince you it was a x2 increase for ssj2. It was simply my opinion. >Since you’re using the most conservative estimates, SSJ Goku can’t be that much weaker than SSJ Gohan. Sure he could. Theres no proof he isn't vastly stronger. >That means SSJ2 Gohan would only be 2-3x stronger than SSJ Goku at most and full power Perfect Cell I'd say 3x isn't impossible. I never made a claim about his power outright. >Going by your own numbers, What numbers? I never pinned goku down by a number, only that cell was suppressed. him being 50% was a guess. He could be less than that. the only thing we know is that cell was suppressed. gokus level is irrelevant. >Goku would stand a chance against Cell if he could use a more concentrated attack. he'd stand a chance if cell held back more power, or hit the core with his attack. the plot hole is responsible for his loss. >This isn’t what happened during the Cell Games since Goku thought Gohan’s hidden potential was their only hope. "only" hope? Goku didn't think gohan was the only hope until he lost. He gave it his all, and it was suggested he fought first so that gohan could see cells fighting style. >You didn’t my comment about Gohan’s rage boosts always being above 2x his power Thats true. It did increase his power beyond a 2x increase. thats his rage boosts, not any other thing though. So if he did get angry his power would be massive. thats what he told him to tap into when fighting dabura, right before buu was hatched. > Toriyama would envision it as increasing Gohan’s power by less than any of his earlier rage boosts did. Any saiyan can go ssj2 though. hell, califla got it by twisting her back. Its certainly not a unique form anymore. We don't know what the authors intent was in this case.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2019 8:09:19 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2019 14:27:02 GMT
The only thing I could see being the key difference between them is that it takes less exertion as a prime namekian than an aged namekian, much like how it takes no exertion for me to run up the steps in my prime, but as an old man it could exert me to being winded and tired doing the same thing. Yes, we agree that it takes less exertion for young Piccolo than old man Piccolo. When his youth was restored, his power increased so that’s all we’ve given to determine why it didn’t require as much energy. We only saw King Piccolo only birth one child at a time while Cell spawned seven children at the same moment. You offered a few different theories for how Cell could do it. Do you think it’s unlikely that Toriyama would have a simpler approach in mind and that Cell was able to do effortlessly because he was several times stronger than his children? I see so Toriyama was intending for us to assume that Cell’s Zenkai was proportionately very small and that he would have more Zenkais in the off chance that he ever gets resurrected a few decades later . I must’ve misinterpreted the comments about Cell’s Zenkai being a great power-up because I assumed that Toriyama would make it huge since it was Cell’s only Zenkai and his final appearance. Bro don’t accuse me of a strawman when I’m only going by what you said in an earlier comment. You said Gohan may have been 80% of Cell’s power and SSJ2 at 160%. SSJ2 Gohan lost some power from his energy since he was reduced to using one arm which means Cell’s Zenkai couldn’t have been that much. You were also using exampels of the some of the smallest proportionate Zenkais of the Freeza saga. I’m pretty sure you’ve only now suggesting that it could be double. I’m not sure what Broly was to do with this since that only one of his power-ups throughout that battle against Vegetto. SSJ2 and SSJ3 were already established to be at least 10x in DBM so Broly’s power increases several times over since he started around SSJ1 Vegetto and Vegetto needed SSJ3 by the end of the battle. USSJ and Cell’s version sacrificed speed for power while 100% Freeza was just him powering up all the way but it didn't slow him down based on what we know. It might be closer to Master Roshi’s Max form since he only ever used to fire a Kamehameha and we never saw him fight it implying that it might’ve been too slow. The others feared he would kill Oozaru Goku with his Kamehameha in the form so it has to be a few times stronger than base Roshi. That would also make sense for ASSJ and USSJ since Vegeta and Trunks assumed they were worthwhile transformation. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I'm saying I've never seen a fan argue "In certain battles you only need a small percentage difference to win so I believe Toriyama decided on the absolute lowest conceivable multiplier for SSJ2". Toriyama obviously didn't do that for the last two Saiyan transformations so no one had a reason to assume he would randomly decide to become as conservative as possible with the next form. If you’re saying that some fans would come to this conclusion on their own, I’ve ever seen it until the SEG was released. I understand what you're trying to do here because we both know that isn't the question I asked. This was the rest of my comment explaining what I’m asking: Once again, you’re only choosing to look at the smallest percentages differences given in the series and ignoring the fact that every previous major battles had bigger jumps in power. I’ve pointed that out multiple times but you keep acting like these small percentages reflect every single battle in Dragonball. In the final battles of the previous sagas, Vegeta increased his power by 10 and Freeza increased more than that from starting power to 100%. Gohan’s huge hidden potential that was brought up throughout DBZ was being unleashed in the form of the next level of SSJ. Cell threatened the entire solar system after his Zenkai which is the most astronomical feat and technically largest leap in power compared to the previous villain up to that point in the series. What about that leads you to believe Toriyama would decide to go with the absolute most conservative percentage differences for every power-up throughout that battle? Nothing that took place in the Cell Games gives me the impression that Toriyama is making an attempt at being that conservative. I’m not sure what this has to do with it. At the time of writing the Cell saga, Gohan was the only SSJ2 and he unleashed it with his rage. We’ve seen what happens when he did that in base prior to the Cell saga and each time it was more than twice his power. It seems clear that SSJ2 was intended to be far beyond what we’ve seen from Gohan in the past. We don’t know Toriyama’s exact intent but I can’t think of a reason why Toriyama would feel the need to consider Gohan’s SSJ2 a smaller proportionate increase than any of his rage boosts.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jul 28, 2019 21:19:23 GMT
The only thing I could see being the key difference between them is that it takes less exertion as a prime namekian than an aged namekian, much like how it takes no exertion for me to run up the steps in my prime, but as an old man it could exert me to being winded and tired doing the same thing. Yes, we agree that it takes less exertion for young Piccolo than old man Piccolo. When his youth was restored, his power increased so that’s all we’ve given to determine why it didn’t require as much energy. We only saw King Piccolo only birth one child at a time while Cell spawned seven children at the same moment. You offered a few different theories for how Cell could do it. Do you think it’s unlikely that Toriyama would have a simpler approach in mind and that Cell was able to do effortlessly because he was several times stronger than his children? I see so Toriyama was intending for us to assume that Cell’s Zenkai was proportionately very small and that he would have more Zenkais in the off chance that he ever gets resurrected a few decades later . I must’ve misinterpreted the comments about Cell’s Zenkai being a great power-up because I assumed that Toriyama would make it huge since it was Cell’s only Zenkai and his final appearance. Bro don’t accuse me of a strawman when I’m only going by what you said in an earlier comment. You said Gohan may have been 80% of Cell’s power and SSJ2 at 160%. SSJ2 Gohan lost some power from his energy since he was reduced to using one arm which means Cell’s Zenkai couldn’t have been that much. You were also using exampels of the some of the smallest proportionate Zenkais of the Freeza saga. I’m pretty sure you’ve only now suggesting that it could be double. I’m not sure what Broly was to do with this since that only one of his power-ups throughout that battle against Vegetto. SSJ2 and SSJ3 were already established to be at least 10x in DBM so Broly’s power increases several times over since he started around SSJ1 Vegetto and Vegetto needed SSJ3 by the end of the battle. USSJ and Cell’s version sacrificed speed for power while 100% Freeza was just him powering up all the way but it didn't slow him down based on what we know. It might be closer to Master Roshi’s Max form since he only ever used to fire a Kamehameha and we never saw him fight it implying that it might’ve been too slow. The others feared he would kill Oozaru Goku with his Kamehameha in the form so it has to be a few times stronger than base Roshi. That would also make sense for ASSJ and USSJ since Vegeta and Trunks assumed they were worthwhile transformation. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I'm saying I've never seen a fan argue "In certain battles you only need a small percentage difference to win so I believe Toriyama decided on the absolute lowest conceivable multiplier for SSJ2". Toriyama obviously didn't do that for the last two Saiyan transformations so no one had a reason to assume he would randomly decide to become as conservative as possible with the next form. If you’re saying that some fans would come to this conclusion on their own, I’ve ever seen it until the SEG was released. I understand what you're trying to do here because we both know that isn't the question I asked. This was the rest of my comment explaining what I’m asking: Once again, you’re only choosing to look at the smallest percentages differences given in the series and ignoring the fact that every previous major battles had bigger jumps in power. I’ve pointed that out multiple times but you keep acting like these small percentages reflect every single battle in Dragonball. In the final battles of the previous sagas, Vegeta increased his power by 10 and Freeza increased more than that from starting power to 100%. Gohan’s huge hidden potential that was brought up throughout DBZ was being unleashed in the form of the next level of SSJ. Cell threatened the entire solar system after his Zenkai which is the most astronomical feat and technically largest leap in power compared to the previous villain up to that point in the series. What about that leads you to believe Toriyama would decide to go with the absolute most conservative percentage differences for every power-up throughout that battle? Nothing that took place in the Cell Games gives me the impression that Toriyama is making an attempt at being that conservative. I’m not sure what this has to do with it. At the time of writing the Cell saga, Gohan was the only SSJ2 and he unleashed it with his rage. We’ve seen what happens when he did that in base prior to the Cell saga and each time it was more than twice his power. It seems clear that SSJ2 was intended to be far beyond what we’ve seen from Gohan in the past. We don’t know Toriyama’s exact intent but I can’t think of a reason why Toriyama would feel the need to consider Gohan’s SSJ2 a smaller proportionate increase than any of his rage boosts. > Do you think it’s unlikely that Toriyama would have a simpler approach in mind and that Cell was able to do effortlessly because he was several times stronger than his children? The simplest answer is...toriyama forgot. But I'd like to assume that the answer is some where in universe. Cell can regenerate his whole body from a single core and be at full power, so any stamina he lost from birthing the jrs should also be restored, if he even lost any. Cell isn't like any of the piccolos, and actually has hax powers on top of his dna donors. >I see so Toriyama was intending for us to assume that Cell’s Zenkai was proportionately very small Its actually objectively the largest zenkai. Anything can be percieved as tiny or inconsequential if you look at it ina way to down play how strong someone got. buu only got like 2x stronger from absorbing gotenks and he went from losing to gohan, to dominating him the whole fight. a 2x increase can be massive, provided the base power is already huge. I could say buuhan is weak, because a saiyan called "vegetto" (whoever that is) only needed ssj1 to beat him up repeatedly, where as kid buu must be stronger because goku was a ssj3, and had the larger multiplier, and still lost to kid buu. We both know that its not as simple as "who has the biggest multiplier" but rather the larger objective power. And yes, I know vegetto is a fusion who increased his power, but he is a saiyan character using a smaller multiplier and was the strongest character ever up to that point. In a vaccuum, looking at the 2 characters not knowing the context might lead some people to believe that buuhan is weaker than kid buu based on a simple instance of multipliers used by 2 saiyans. Goku was a ssj3 struggling against a majin, and vegetto was a ssj1 winning with ease. Yet we know buuhan is assumed to be stronger. The issue isn't the multiplier, but the power being multiplied. >SSJ2 Gohan lost some power from his energy since he was reduced to using one arm Not entirely. He didn't really "lose" the power. (an argument could be made for that) and even if he did, cell was holding back and was distracted. Cell could have won that if not for vegeta. So he wasn't just 30% stronger. He'd be around ssj2 gohans power if not more. Cell was holding back, and so was gohan til the end. Cell isn't struggling at all, where as gohan is. He only lost because vegeta intervened. So after getting the biggest zenkai ever, he equaled ssj2 gohan if not surpassed him. 1.5x-2x might seem small, but only because a billion or more seems small when you add it to a guys power who was already strong. And like I said buutenks doubled buu's power to the point he was stronger than mystic gohan. a 2x increase can be huge, and it's a some what disingenuous argument to dismiss it by virtue of "lol, only 2x? do you even math bro?" buu and ssj3 gotenks were about even, with both having the advantage for a bit. he absorbed ssj3 gotenks to seemingly double his power. Why wouldn't the same precedence apply for other power ups? Assuming the base power is already huge, a 2x increase can be massive. >I’m not sure what Broly was to do with this because his power doubled. gohans power doubled. buu's power doubled. cells power almost doubled. gokus power vs ginyu doubled and it was considered massive in the manga as far as power increases go. Context is important, and thats why I show cased a double power increase beign considered massive. > That would also make sense for ASSJ and USSJ since Vegeta and Trunks assumed they were worthwhile transformation. They weren't. Thats what the manga asserted, that the assj and ussj were both inferior. Goku had a smaller multiplier for his ssj form than vegetas assj form, and he was still stronger. vegeta even went in again and was still massively outmatched, assj or no. it just isn't very good considering it has stamina issues, and while some of those stamina issues could be mitigated, I don't think they could seeing as vegeta didn't just stay as a assj like goku did with ssj. It could be alright for a short fight, but just mastering ssj and keeping a good stamina form for extended fights was shown to be better. And this also suggests that a lower multiplier can be more beneficial than a higher multiplier, provided the number being multiplied is big enough. >I think you misunderstood what I meant Thats certainly possible. if I were talking to you directly in person we might have a better understanding. >I'm saying I've never seen a fan argue "In certain battles you only need a small percentage difference to win so I believe Toriyama decided on the absolute lowest conceivable multiplier for SSJ2" Fans don't need to argue that though. And thats not what I'm arguing. Maybe you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying a 100x increase for ssj2 is possible. But a 10x or larger increase is fine too. if it is bigger than 2x, I'm ok with that. >Toriyama obviously didn't do that for the last two Saiyan transformations so no one had a reason to assume he would randomly decide to become as conservative as possible with the next form now hold on, he did want ssj to be 10x at first but was shot down. So if he did feel salty about that, he could have done that just to be a dick to his editor if he wasn't his boss any more. I've heard some thories on why goku is such a dick in super, seeing as goku wasn't so stupid and selfish, and it had to do with toeis handling of goku in the movies, making him out to be some selfles super hero and what not. The lower ssj2 multiplier could be his middle finger to the guy who rejected his 10x multiplier, and maybe thats why he settled on that. or it was a random number he decided on for no reason than to troll his fans. Thats a half joking theory! I don't assert that to be true! but I could believe it if it did come out to be true. >Nothing that took place in the Cell Games gives me the impression that Toriyama is making an attempt at being that conservative. Nothign really asserts it to be any bigger either. The buu saga had buu increase his power by 2x and it was enough to roflstomp gohan in his ultimate form. So it does look like you don't need to be any more than that to have a 1 sided fight. So how about we concede that a 2x is the minimum increase, but a 10x or so on could very well work as well, considering the precident with buutenks getting a 2x power up, as well as the other instances of a mere 2x power up being considered an absurd power up. >At the time of writing the Cell saga, We can't just look at the cell saga in a vaccuum, other wise I could say vegeta vs freeza was a ssj, because he said so. We have to look at the whole thing, even if we do have to include dbs (sigh) >We’ve seen what happens when he did that in base prior to the Cell saga and each time it was more than twice his power. rage boosts aren't a transformation though. rage boosts are a temporary power up, and ssj is a seperate thing unlocked by rage and (sigh) back tingles. Rage boosts are a thing just about every one could get, but gohans were bigger. vegeta surpassed ssj3 goku in his ssj2 form by getting a rage boost on top of his ssj2 form. so ignoring dbs for a bit, ssj2 in the whole of dbz was just a transformation that any saiyan could get. gotenks surpassed ssj2 and went into ssj3. We can't just look at the ssj2 gohan phenomenon in a vaccuum and say "its gohans hidden potential" when his hybrid saiyan biology allowed him to get a form easier than his full saiyan counterparts. Goku went on to get ssj2 and surpassed it with ssj3. Then theres ssj2 trunks equaling ssj3 goku. Trunks in the dbs manga was able to power up to ssj3 goku level and his multiplier was either lower with a higher base form, or his ssj2 was greater than gokus ssj2 despite being the "ssj2" form. Maybe he had a rage boost he could control. Vegeta was able to control his rage boost in dbs anime after the BOG arc. I'll understand if you'd like to avoid dbs though, but manga trunks was able to overcome the gap between ssj2 and ssj3 by having rage boost (maybe?) and a higher base form. but dbs is a mess so maybe we should ignore it. If I'm not entirely clear what my opinion on this is, I could clarify it further.
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Post by Ashanark on Jul 29, 2019 4:18:44 GMT
I’ve been reading through this discussion but I don’t remember everything that’s been said so I’m sorry if I repeat something already discussed. Also I’m on phone and it’s hard to do italics on phone so forgive me if I seem to BE SHOUTING.
As I see it there are two schools of thought here: 1. The guidebooks appear inconsistent with the source material, so they’re wrong.
OR
2. The guidebooks are “canon” and therefore by default correct; consequently, all inconsistencies MUST actually be consistent if we look at them hard enough.
I have quite a few problems with #2. —That’s motivated reasoning. —That’s putting faith in TORIYAMA for your motivated reasoning. —It’s making awfully big assumptions about Toriyama’s involvement anyway
The SS2 multiplier in particular has perhaps the biggest problem of all: to work, it requires Toriyama to NOT think like how Toriyama normally thinks, every step of the way.
The first way it forces Toriyama to not think like Toriyama is how Toriyama approached power levels. Yes, comparatively small increases in PL have been shown to cause dominating a fight. But on the whole, looking at how Toriyama tended to set up fights, that’s the exception, not the rule. Looking just at Saiyan/Namek: 1. Raditz was over twice the threat Piccolo was 2. Nappa was over twice Raditz, if not triple or quadruple 3. Vegeta was over twice Nappa—and, if you’re one of those people who puts Nappa at 4000 (Salagir puts him at 8000) then Vegeta was over four times the threat —ape vegeta was ten times stronger 4. I won’t use Zarbon or middle Ginyus because we didn’t get numbers for them in-comic, but Ginyu was at least SIX times original Vegeta. 5. First Frieza was over FOUR times Ginyu 6. Frieza’s Second form doubled his first at least 7. While it’s not set in stone what percent Frieza started fighting Goku, max final Frieza was at least ONE HUNDRED times above first Frieza.
Excepting middle Namek saga new threats have ALWAYS been at least a doubling, if not MORE so. The trend here is TO CREATE A SENSE OF OVERWHELMING ADVANTAGE. Remember: Toriyama HATES even fights; that’s why Piccolo vs 17 is the only one he ever wrote.
Compare with Cell arc: 1. 18 would stomp Namek SS1 Goku. 2. 16 would stomp 18. 3. Semi-Cell stomps 16. 4. Vegeta stomps Semi. 5. Restrained Perfect stomps Vegeta. 6. Cell has to power up to even more astonishing levels against Goku. 7. Gohan is stronger than Goku. 8. Max Perfect Cell would murder SS1 Gohan. 9. Max Perfect is utterly no match for SS2 Gohan.
We have a similar number of jumps as Saiyan/Namek saga. However, to argue SS2 is only a x2 increase we have to say that Toriyama, every step of the way, was having one fighter dominate another and NOT thinking in doublings or triplings but instead consciously saying in his head “THIS IS ONLY A 20% INCREASE.”
DO YOU SERIOUSLY BELIEVE TORIYAMA WAS THINKING THAT.
Toriyama is an inherently ridiculous storyteller; he’s never understood restraint. He’s been this way from the very beginning and continues to this day. The SS2 multiplier requires arguing Toriyama completely changed his manner of storytelling—heck, his whole manner of THINKING. That is COMPLETELY unlikely to me.
I find it interesting we have to change the way Toriyama thinks to support this information supposedly from Toriyama!
Another problem with these numbers: compare with Buu saga. 1. SS2 Goku/Vegeta would beat Teen Gohan. 2. SS2 Vegeta is no match for Kid Buu, who’s roughly equal with (in my reading, implied to be stronger than) SS3 Goku.
This needs more expounding. There were points during Vegeta/Kid Buu when Buu ACTUALLY TRIED TO KILL HIM but failed; Vegeta could survive his attacks. If max Cell was no match for SS2 Gohan, and a Junior was no match for Daddy, are you expecting me to think that if Teen Gohan wanted Goku or Vegeta dead, he couldn’t do it—INSTANTLY?
So in other words to support the guidebooks we must say Toriyama was only intending 20% boosts the entire Cell saga and then turn around and say Kid Buu was quadruple Vegeta and COULDN’T kill him... despite Teen Gohan slaughtering all the Juniors with ease despite only doubling them.
Do you see why I think this is highly, HIGHLY unlikely? It requires a level of complexity from Toriyama which honestly the man doesn’t have.
Then of course you have to finagle the final fight with Cell. Gohan says “I’m half power.” Boom. If the guidebook multiplier is true we must either explain why a SS2-as-strong-as-a-SS1 can keep up with Cell despite Cell at max (stronger than a SS1) not being able to keep up with a SS2 earlier. Or we must assume Gohan was overestimating his own injuries and not the opposite, which is that he was fighting LOWER than half out of fear for the earth. We must assume Cell to be toying with him yet again despite not having a reason to do so—remember, he was going to kill Gohan before if he hadn’t thought Gohan might get stronger, and that was BEFORE he almost died and got super ticked—and despite Cell literally shooting a blast at him to kill him! (I interpret Cell’s confidence not from holding back or even necessarily a huge power advantage, but from knowing Gohan lacked the reserves to hold him off. It’s like bench pressing; you might be able to hold the weight up for a while but it’s gonna get to you eventually.) That Cell was holding back is unlikely because he claims solar system capable, clearly to indicate his new strength and therefore putting him above max Perfect Cell—which a SS1 can’t beat.
You can argue all these things and you may even be right, but I maintain Toriyama is a simple man and writes simply. Besides, Occam’s Razor is that often the simple answer is the correct one.
And now I will give you the real answer behind this “canon” source, though I can’t prove it.
These guidebooks are written by bored employees assigned to make a product for kids by a bored employer. Being guys with jobs and other things on their minds and knowing it was for kids they hadn’t put as much thought and research about the source material as we internet dorks and so they crapped out some numbers which sounded good and sent the guidebook in for approval. Toriyama’s bored assistant was informed about the guidebook and asked a bored Toriyama if he was okay with it and Toriyama said “Whatever” and it got published. It is not “canon”, even if it WAS consistent with the story’s logic or presentation at all, which it isn’t.
Because otherwise you’re asking me to think that TORIYAMA, the man who forgets HIS OWN CONTINUITY, actually sat down and read an entire guidebook someone else wrote on his own product. The man who literally can’t be bothered to care much about HIS OWN writing. We must also assume that these mysterious guidebook authors, coming from the same company that made DBS with all its inconsistencies and retcons and lazy logic, made a product on their own (because Toriyama didn’t write it, he APPROVED it) that was somehow not inconsistent at all.
No quotes. No interviews for this. Not even a direct quote from Toriyama “I read this stuff and it’s all good.” Just “approved.” At some level DBZ toys are “approved”, too. “Approval” means nothing. Which means we take it as another fan explanation and judge that explanation on its own merits...at which point it doesn’t make much sense.
But even if we did have a quote from Toriyama saying SS2 is a x2 multiplier it’d still make no sense. (Besides, could we even trust it? The man once forgot SS2 existed!) To return to my opening statement about the two schools of thought, that is probably the main point of contention here. I am a firm believer of Death of the Author and if what an author says isn’t represented in the story, well, I’m going with the story—the author could’ve written it differently. On the other hand I often see you use DBS and stuff as evidence because it is “canon”, despite its inconsistencies. I guess that’s just a difference of preference.
I’m sorry. It’s just not reasonable. Possible? Maybe. But not reasonable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2019 4:42:26 GMT
The simplest answer is...toriyama forgot. But I'd like to assume that the answer is some where in universe. Cell can regenerate his whole body from a single core and be at full power, so any stamina he lost from birthing the jrs should also be restored, if he even lost any. Cell isn't like any of the piccolos, and actually has hax powers on top of his dna donors. I was assuming that the answer was in-universe. You came up with a few different explanations which is something you have to do if you want to believe Toriyama intentionally thought of a 2x multiplier for SS2. The problem with this is that it would mean Toriyama had something in mind for how Cell could spawn seven children at the same time when he was barely 2-3x stronger than one of them. If he’s not going bother sharing it then it’s unlikely he would go out of his way to come up with one when he could go with a more straightforward answer and that Cell was much stronger than them and therefore barely lost any energy in the process. You’re saying it’s technically the largest Zenkai numberwise and also offered another explanation that it might’ve been proportionately small because it was Cell’s first Zenkai. I’m just trying to point out that using the 2x multiplier requires you to come up with these theories than you wouldn’t need to if you believe it’s a lot higher. I have no idea how much Cell’s Zenkai boosted his power other than his comments about it being a great power-up. Since I’m assuming SSJ2 is far greater than 2x, I can take Cell’s statement at face value and have no issues with him getting a few times stronger. I didn’t dismiss it and already acknowledged that you don’t need a huge power difference to dominate someone in a battle. If we’re taking about what we feel is disingenuous, my issue is that you’re using that as justification for a Saiyan transformation when that was never the case before or acting the Cell Games and acting these small percentage differences reflect every battle. You brought up the example of Buutenks vs Gohan but don’t acknowledge all the power-ups that occured throughout the saga to get to that point. Goten and Trunks fused and grew many times stronger while Gohan had his potential unlocked and went from a rusty SSJ2 to stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Context is important which is I pointed out that Broly’s doubling of his power was only one power-up out of many throughout that battle. Let’s talk power being doubled. In all these examples, the characters were either powering-up, using a technique, or in Buu’s case absorbing someone who was about equal to his own power but not actual transformations. Also, there was evidence or it was flatout stated that the power of these characters doubled. The manga asserted that ASSJ and USSJ were inferior to FPSSJ but not as small of a boost as you’re suggesting. Kaioken was inferior to SSJ but not because Kaioken barely boosted Goku’s power but because SSJ increased his power by more than 20. Using the most conservative estimate for FPSSJ, we would have Goku getting a few times stronger since he was weaker than one of the cyborgs and then suppresses ASSJ Vegeta and USSJ Trunks with 50% of his power. FPSSJ could’ve easily made Goku over 10x stronger and ASSJ would still be considered inferior as long as it’s less than half of Goku’s power-up. We don’t know what Toriyama was referring to with the 10x multiplier for SSJ but it was either some level of Kaioken or he forgot that he already had Goku increase his power by 10x during that battle. That statement came out in an interview 15 years after the manga so he could’ve forgotten. The multiplier for SSJ2 and SSJ3 were from made up by someone at Shueisha since it seems that everything in the guidebooks that came directly from Toriyama was documented or revealed by him in an interview. I know you mean it as a joke but it’s unlikely the 2x multiplier was secretly his decision just to troll someone since a few years later he created SSJ God that had the highest boost for a SSJ form by far. This is what Kanzenshuu explains about the guidebooks: It should be noted that although Akira Toriyama is listed as the author of this databook, he actually had very little involvement with the production of its content, if any at all. The contents of this databook were almost entirely compiled and organized by Caramel Mama and Shueisha.I’m not looking at Gohan’s transformation in a vacuum. SSJ was that powerful was because it needed to be more than double Goku’s best Kaioken. Toriyama’s reasoning for making it that powerful at the time isn’t looking at it in a vacuum since every other SSJ would be increasing by the same amount after deciding how much it would be for Goku. This doesn’t counter anything about Toriyama envisioning SSJ2 being a far greater increase than any of Gohan’s rage boosts. Once he decides on how much it increases Gohan’s power, he would be applying to every other Saiyan who achieves the form. Since you mentioned DBS, here’s an example from the Beerus saga to help explain my point about Cell threatening the solar system. Beerus and Goku’s battle threatened the entire universe which is leaps and bounds above the last destruction level. Was SSJG only twice as strong as SSJ3? If this feat wasn’t clear enough to show it was many times stronger, Goku also didn’t believe fusion would be enough against Beerus. This was a pretty insane feat and more than anything we’ve seen before but it follows a trend in Dragonball that there would be a huge leap in power between each threat level. Max form Roshi and Piccolo Jr could destroy the moon with a PL of a few hundreds and the first person who could destroy a planet was Vegeta who was over 40x stronger than Piccolo when he destroyed the moon. The next big leap was first form Freeza could destroy a planet with minimum effort and almost 30x stronger than Vegeta. Going from planet to solar system buster is an even bigger leap so Freeza’s power-up from his first form to 100% wasn’t enough. We don’t see that until Super Perfect Cell. We see some major power-ups in the Buu saga but it wasn’t until the Beerus saga that they jump all the way to universe level. There's a proven huge jump in power between each feat so I assume Toriyama likely did the same with Cell. It wouldn't make sense to have the character make such a claim when Toriyama is suddenly thinking in terms of the most conservative power-ups he's ever done before during that battle.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jul 29, 2019 18:06:46 GMT
I’ve been reading through this discussion but I don’t remember everything that’s been said so I’m sorry if I repeat something already discussed. Also I’m on phone and it’s hard to do italics on phone so forgive me if I seem to BE SHOUTING. As I see it there are two schools of thought here: 1. The guidebooks appear inconsistent with the source material, so they’re wrong. OR 2. The guidebooks are “canon” and therefore by default correct; consequently, all inconsistencies MUST actually be consistent if we look at them hard enough. I have quite a few problems with #2. —That’s motivated reasoning. —That’s putting faith in TORIYAMA for your motivated reasoning. —It’s making awfully big assumptions about Toriyama’s involvement anyway The SS2 multiplier in particular has perhaps the biggest problem of all: to work, it requires Toriyama to NOT think like how Toriyama normally thinks, every step of the way. The first way it forces Toriyama to not think like Toriyama is how Toriyama approached power levels. Yes, comparatively small increases in PL have been shown to cause dominating a fight. But on the whole, looking at how Toriyama tended to set up fights, that’s the exception, not the rule. Looking just at Saiyan/Namek: 1. Raditz was over twice the threat Piccolo was 2. Nappa was over twice Raditz, if not triple or quadruple 3. Vegeta was over twice Nappa—and, if you’re one of those people who puts Nappa at 4000 (Salagir puts him at 8000) then Vegeta was over four times the threat —ape vegeta was ten times stronger 4. I won’t use Zarbon or middle Ginyus because we didn’t get numbers for them in-comic, but Ginyu was at least SIX times original Vegeta. 5. First Frieza was over FOUR times Ginyu 6. Frieza’s Second form doubled his first at least 7. While it’s not set in stone what percent Frieza started fighting Goku, max final Frieza was at least ONE HUNDRED times above first Frieza. Excepting middle Namek saga new threats have ALWAYS been at least a doubling, if not MORE so. The trend here is TO CREATE A SENSE OF OVERWHELMING ADVANTAGE. Remember: Toriyama HATES even fights; that’s why Piccolo vs 17 is the only one he ever wrote. Compare with Cell arc: 1. 18 would stomp Namek SS1 Goku. 2. 16 would stomp 18. 3. Semi-Cell stomps 16. 4. Vegeta stomps Semi. 5. Restrained Perfect stomps Vegeta. 6. Cell has to power up to even more astonishing levels against Goku. 7. Gohan is stronger than Goku. 8. Max Perfect Cell would murder SS1 Gohan. 9. Max Perfect is utterly no match for SS2 Gohan. We have a similar number of jumps as Saiyan/Namek saga. However, to argue SS2 is only a x2 increase we have to say that Toriyama, every step of the way, was having one fighter dominate another and NOT thinking in doublings or triplings but instead consciously saying in his head “THIS IS ONLY A 20% INCREASE.” DO YOU SERIOUSLY BELIEVE TORIYAMA WAS THINKING THAT. Toriyama is an inherently ridiculous storyteller; he’s never understood restraint. He’s been this way from the very beginning and continues to this day. The SS2 multiplier requires arguing Toriyama completely changed his manner of storytelling—heck, his whole manner of THINKING. That is COMPLETELY unlikely to me. I find it interesting we have to change the way Toriyama thinks to support this information supposedly from Toriyama! Another problem with these numbers: compare with Buu saga. 1. SS2 Goku/Vegeta would beat Teen Gohan. 2. SS2 Vegeta is no match for Kid Buu, who’s roughly equal with (in my reading, implied to be stronger than) SS3 Goku. This needs more expounding. There were points during Vegeta/Kid Buu when Buu ACTUALLY TRIED TO KILL HIM but failed; Vegeta could survive his attacks. If max Cell was no match for SS2 Gohan, and a Junior was no match for Daddy, are you expecting me to think that if Teen Gohan wanted Goku or Vegeta dead, he couldn’t do it—INSTANTLY? So in other words to support the guidebooks we must say Toriyama was only intending 20% boosts the entire Cell saga and then turn around and say Kid Buu was quadruple Vegeta and COULDN’T kill him... despite Teen Gohan slaughtering all the Juniors with ease despite only doubling them. Do you see why I think this is highly, HIGHLY unlikely? It requires a level of complexity from Toriyama which honestly the man doesn’t have. Then of course you have to finagle the final fight with Cell. Gohan says “I’m half power.” Boom. If the guidebook multiplier is true we must either explain why a SS2-as-strong-as-a-SS1 can keep up with Cell despite Cell at max (stronger than a SS1) not being able to keep up with a SS2 earlier. Or we must assume Gohan was overestimating his own injuries and not the opposite, which is that he was fighting LOWER than half out of fear for the earth. We must assume Cell to be toying with him yet again despite not having a reason to do so—remember, he was going to kill Gohan before if he hadn’t thought Gohan might get stronger, and that was BEFORE he almost died and got super ticked—and despite Cell literally shooting a blast at him to kill him! (I interpret Cell’s confidence not from holding back or even necessarily a huge power advantage, but from knowing Gohan lacked the reserves to hold him off. It’s like bench pressing; you might be able to hold the weight up for a while but it’s gonna get to you eventually.) That Cell was holding back is unlikely because he claims solar system capable, clearly to indicate his new strength and therefore putting him above max Perfect Cell—which a SS1 can’t beat. You can argue all these things and you may even be right, but I maintain Toriyama is a simple man and writes simply. Besides, Occam’s Razor is that often the simple answer is the correct one. And now I will give you the real answer behind this “canon” source, though I can’t prove it. These guidebooks are written by bored employees assigned to make a product for kids by a bored employer. Being guys with jobs and other things on their minds and knowing it was for kids they hadn’t put as much thought and research about the source material as we internet dorks and so they crapped out some numbers which sounded good and sent the guidebook in for approval. Toriyama’s bored assistant was informed about the guidebook and asked a bored Toriyama if he was okay with it and Toriyama said “Whatever” and it got published. It is not “canon”, even if it WAS consistent with the story’s logic or presentation at all, which it isn’t. Because otherwise you’re asking me to think that TORIYAMA, the man who forgets HIS OWN CONTINUITY, actually sat down and read an entire guidebook someone else wrote on his own product. The man who literally can’t be bothered to care much about HIS OWN writing. We must also assume that these mysterious guidebook authors, coming from the same company that made DBS with all its inconsistencies and retcons and lazy logic, made a product on their own (because Toriyama didn’t write it, he APPROVED it) that was somehow not inconsistent at all. No quotes. No interviews for this. Not even a direct quote from Toriyama “I read this stuff and it’s all good.” Just “approved.” At some level DBZ toys are “approved”, too. “Approval” means nothing. Which means we take it as another fan explanation and judge that explanation on its own merits...at which point it doesn’t make much sense. But even if we did have a quote from Toriyama saying SS2 is a x2 multiplier it’d still make no sense. (Besides, could we even trust it? The man once forgot SS2 existed!) To return to my opening statement about the two schools of thought, that is probably the main point of contention here. I am a firm believer of Death of the Author and if what an author says isn’t represented in the story, well, I’m going with the story—the author could’ve written it differently. On the other hand I often see you use DBS and stuff as evidence because it is “canon”, despite its inconsistencies. I guess that’s just a difference of preference. I’m sorry. It’s just not reasonable. Possible? Maybe. But not reasonable. I did address most of this already, but we do know that zarbon was at least a 5-10% advantage for vegeta. Even if his 23,000 wasn't in comic, it WAS explicitly a point that he was stronger than 18,000. vegeta at 24,000 was stronger than cui at 18k, and had a mere 25% advantage and one shotted him. He then one shotted dodoria who was stronger than cui, and toyed with zarbon who was stronger than dodoria. The 25% advantage gets smaller with each fighter, so you do need a 25% advantage to one shot a guy, and in some cases smaller. Ginyu at 120,000 was terrified of goku at 180,000 which was a mere 33% advantage. @skar >I was assuming that the answer was in-universe. Right. and the answer in universe could be that he can just regenerate any stamina lost with ease. You brought up cell regenerating his half body and "lost" stamina but he regenerated his whole body and was at full power, and was actually stronger than before and at full power. Why can't he regenerate stamina by standing still without being blown up? >You’re saying it’s technically the largest Zenkai numberwise It is the largest zenkai ever. a billion is larger than a few million. >I’m just trying to point out that using the 2x multiplier requires you to come up with these theories But theres no proof ssj2 is any larger either. Outside of head canon, its just a transformation with no established multiplier. ssj is for example considered 50x, but at the same time, why not assume its 150 million increase? Where did you get the "multiplier" from? What if it is an additive boost? We both got the 50x increase from a guide book and an interview, but not the manga itself. using the 2x multiplier doesn't refute anything established in canon. its just a convenient thing I use for my own calculations. I'm not asserting it is canon, where as you seem bothered by it. Why is that? >you wouldn’t need to if you believe it’s a lot higher. well, you don't need to worry about what my head canon is either. I'm not pushing the 100x increase on you or anybody. Rather, I embraced the 10x increase salagir used, because its his version of ssj2 and unlike some of the people on the forums who take the guide books as a holy grail relic, I just ignore my own pre existing beliefs to enjoy the art work, story and so on. A 10x increase doesn't make for a better story. ssj4 was like a 4,000x increase if we use the guide books and stack oozaruu on top of it. GT was kind of boring, but it had the biggest powers, the biggest multipliers, the strongest villains, but didn't do much. Honestly, if you want my honest opinion, I saw the 100x multiplier at first and thought it was too low. I had to scour the manga and anime to find some way to disprove it, but I ended looking at the math used, and found that it could work. I had proven my self wrong. Though if it were established in dbs that it were 10x ssj or some other thing, like how potaras were established to be a 10x increase after adding the powers of 2 fighters together based on compatibility, I'd be ok with that, because nothing refutes a 10x increase or a 2x increase for ssj2. Yeah speaking of which, how do you feel about the potara retcon outside of the 1 hour time limit? its a 10x increase after adding the 2 powers together? >Since I’m assuming SSJ2 is far greater than 2x Thats an equally valid assumption to me thinking it is 2x. >I can take Cell’s statement at face value and have no issues with him getting a few times stronger. Thats assuming he got more than 2x stronger as well. buu got 2x stronger and it was the largest increase for a villain in history to that point. You're only looking at the multiplier, not the number being multiplied. 5000x 1 equals 5000 , where as 2x 1 billion is 2 billion. Which one is bigger? The 2nd guy is stronger despite having a lower multiplier. The issue in contention should be gohans base form, not the multiplier he used to surpass cell. >ou brought up the example of Buutenks vs Gohan but don’t acknowledge all the power-ups that occured throughout the saga to get to that point. Thats irrelevant. ssj3 gotenks only multiplied gotenks power by (insert head canon number here) But to buu that was only a 2x increase. its 2x for buu not 2x gor gotenks. And thats the same issue you had for gohan increasing 2x, he had a larger base form so a 2x increase to his ssj form is about the same concept as buu only increasing 2x. A 2x increase is still only 2x. buu went from losing handily to gohan in his ultimate form, to dominating him with a mere 2x increase. This is what happened in canon. to this gotenks and buu while he was ssj3 were about even the whole time. so to say it was "2x" is justified. Some argued buu was never being serious, and that its less than 2x, but I'm willing to round up here. >using a technique, or in Buu’s case absorbing someone who was about equal to his own power but not actual transformations. Also, there was evidence or it was flatout stated that the power of these characters doubled. doubling is still doubling. Whether you got a 2x increase from a transformation, a technique or an absorbtion, the power increase was always by x2. >The manga asserted that ASSJ and USSJ were inferior to FPSSJ but not as small of a boost as you’re suggesting. are we talking percentage? because goku at 50% of his power was more than vegetas and trunks power as a assj and likely ussj. then vegeta went in again and at 50% of gokus power he was confident he could win, but then goku went 100% and vegeta was outclassed again. The multiplier for assj was bigger yet he was still weaker. >FPSSJ could’ve easily made Goku over 10x stronger and ASSJ would still be considered inferior as long as it’s less than half of Goku’s power-up. I don;t where you got that from, the only instance we got that fpssj was even hinted at being stronger in terms of multipliers was the guide book. And even then its not clear what they meant. If we go by the manga, then goku just asserts that ssj is better and instead of wasting time on a useless ki draining form, they just master ssj like its their normal form. Then they train each other instead of the form, so as to gain strength in their base forms. >FPSSJ could’ve easily made Goku over 10x stronger and ASSJ would still be considered inferior as long as it’s less than half of Goku’s power-up. Theres no real proof that the form made goku 10x stronger. He doesn't even address it in canon. he just says to buu and babadi that theres ssj, ssj2 and the ssj3 form. A small throw away line about the different forms like "theres the other forms as well, but lets focus on the real ssj forms why don't we? no need to talk about messy bulk up forms. This is a ssj. this is a ssj that has gone beyond a normal ssj....etc etc" >You brought up the example of Buutenks vs Gohan but don’t acknowledge all the power-ups that occured throughout the saga to get to that point. You can't ignore all of gohans power ups in the series tot hat point either. Training with piccolo, training with goku, getting his power unlocked by guru, his zenkai boosts, and so on. Maybe the reason a 2x increase could work is because gohan was already so strong, much like how buu increasing his power by 2x made him unstoppable. >Also, there was evidence or it was flatout stated that the power of these characters doubled. And those 2x increases were thought of nigh incredible, despite the difference being less than a 50% advantage in most cases. >Using the most conservative estimate for FPSSJ, we would have Goku getting a few times stronger since he was weaker than one of the cyborgs and then suppresses ASSJ Vegeta and USSJ Trunks with 50% of his power. fpssj isn't seemingly a power increase according to the manga, its just that they mastered the form so that they don't have that restless feeling. They spent the time training their base forms, not the actual assj transformation like vegeta did. its also like their base forms. "regular ssj is best" And goku not only surpassed assj vegeta but probably ussj trunks too, despite the lower multiplier. he just trained so well huis base form made up the difference for the lower multiplier. as to why they did so well in the HTC and not th 3 years before hand, I'd assume it has to do with the strenuous living conditions as well as the gravity. plus, goku not being strict was a plot point call back to when piccolo trained gohan, saying he'd nanny gohan too much. At least in the anime. >FPSSJ could’ve easily made Goku over 10x stronger and ASSJ would still be considered inferior as long as it’s less than half of Goku’s power-up. Well, theres no proof its any of these either. Like what fight in db has actually refuted a 30% advantage giving a guy an unstoppable advantage that we did know of? Goku vs nappa was a double advantage over him if we go by the interview numbers, with goku being 8000 and nappa 4000, and it was a curb stomp for nappa. if he was any stronger, then that that actually makes the lower percenatage required to win even more likely. Then theres a possibilitiy we both over looked until now. What if it isn't percentage, or multipliers, but just the raw number. Think about this for 1 second. Goku vs nappa had the same power gap in terms of percent, but the difference was the gap of about a few thousand vs several hundreds of thousands. And that made freeza even more unstoppable. Now, the only hole in this off the top of my head is that freeza unique biology could make him more durable and faster at lower levels than someone on the same level, as well as gokus inclination to toy with people usually villains. Goku also won't kill people usually, where freeza typically, well does. so of course freeza is going to sloppily butcher his opponents for fun. >We don’t know what Toriyama was referring to with the 10x multiplier for SSJ You're right. this was an interview he had made years after the fact. If it was a 10x increase, it could be interpretted he was going to use the kaioken on top of his ssj form. kind of like how ssjb uses kaioken and what not, which could be a call back to this as well as the pikkon fight, which also could have used this as a reference. >I know you mean it as a joke but it’s unlikely the 2x multiplier was secretly his decision just to troll someone well it is toriyama, he likes to subvert people expectations, which is why dbs is so poorly done, it subverted our expectations. but even acknowleding the joke aspect, toriyama has gone out of his way to make goku more selfish in dbs and later parts of dbz due to toeis handling of gokus character. "Speaking to WIRED, Toriyama was asked about Dragon Ball’s main character, and the creator admitted he had issues with how Dragon Ball Z depicted Goku. “There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys,” Toriyama said. “So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.” so, while it might have been toriyamas attempt to make goku above and beyond stupid in dbs and selfish, I wonder if this was his attempt to over do it and flanderize his character so that toei would finally get it. What I mean is, he has no editors, no bosses to get in his way. He has 100% freedom to do what he wants. So what does he do? super nice goku? jerkass goku. huge power ups for all ssj forms? just a 2x increase and 4x increase. vegeta character development? reversed back to wanting one thing and to surpass goku. now lets just take what I just said with a grain of salt and just digest it with an open mind. I can't say with 100% certainty that toriyama did all of this in dbs (and the ssj2 form) just to troll people, or to correct toei by force by making gokus selfish aspects more apparent and caricature-esque, but lets look at his recent choices in dbs for example. He had the option to make a villain return and power up to face ssjgssj blue whatever goku, so which one did he pick? Cell? janemba? Dabura? No he picked freeza. Ok, uh, so did he get stronger than a ssjg by using a cool god ritual unique for his race? maybe he had some cool greek mythology thing, like an achilles heel style bath, or some kind of ritual based on ice? Nah he just trained for 4 months. So while I'm not suggesting this with 100% certainty, it could be toriyamas laziness that he went with a 100x power up for ssj2. maybe 100倍 sounded cool to him so he went with it. or it really was a middle finger to his boss who shot down his 10x increase from before. If he was thinking of a complex model that made it stronger than kaioken x20, couldn't he have just explained it to his boss that way? with it being 50x, any plans to give his ssj a technique based power up kind of goes out the window. Why use kaioken any more when he's already stronger than freeza with his normal ssj form? so when the time came for him to assign a power descriptor, looking back at his old boss who rejected his smaller increase, he decided to make it a simple 2x increase, to subvert expectations, and as a middle finger to his boss who turned down his idea. There aren't any interviews on ssj2 as far as I know, aside from the one where he forgot ssj2 even existed and thought ssj3 was ssj2, but I could see toriyama doing that, perhaps sub conciously. Now did he really do any of that? Probably not. The guide books were a quick cash grab that he approved of. the info thats in them is usually correct, aside from dbs retcons and some typos. 12 million and 15 million for goku vs freeza? please. There aren't much incorrect things like wrong attack descriptors, he didn't call the kienzan a makankosappo, or some other thing like that. the info is usually accurate. And while a 2x increase for ssj2 isn't impossible, its certainly possible as well that its more than 2x. >I’m not looking at Gohan’s transformation in a vacuum. SSJ was that powerful was because it needed to be more than double Goku’s best Kaioken. and thats where the idea of a "50x" multiplier is seemingly required. assuming it just statically does a 50x increase, it would work just fine. David starlinghan or whatever his name is came up with the "added boost" idea for ssj. And while I disasgree with it, it could also fit. So ssj could be a smaller increase given the passage of time and the base form increases. he theorized that toriyamas interview was to say it was 50x "at the time" meaning later instances would make it less than 50x over time if the base form was big enough. And again, I disagree with this idea, but it also could work if we ignore GT and dbs which is written by toei and in some degree toyataro, and supervised by toriyama. >This doesn’t counter anything about Toriyama envisioning SSJ2 being a far greater increase than any of Gohan’s rage boosts. Once he decides on how much it increases Gohan’s power, he would be applying to every other Saiyan who achieves the form. one way of looking at it is that ssj2 wasn't great in terms of multiplier, but that gohan was. Thats why gohan was able to pound cell mercilessly. It wasn't the ssj2 form, but gohans base form, his power that made it work. It wasn't the ssj2 form, it was gohan. >Beerus and Goku’s battle threatened the entire universe There was an episode that mentioned how 2 gods or hakaishin fighting each other would destroy the universe. There seems to be a god ki taboo in place. Its not unreasonable to assert that 2 god ki users, one of which being a hakaishin could achive similar results. and goku netralized this universe shattering effect with his 3rd strike, stating he was trying to do this with the earlier one. I'd actually assume it was a god ki taboo and not their actual strength, as beerus was involved. we see ssjb and golden freeza clash and no similar thing happened. >Goku also didn’t believe fusion would be enough against Beerus. we don't know what the increase on ssjg was, but ssjg wasn't strong enough to take on beerus either. ssjb wasn't enough to take on hit in the anime either, and goku had to use a kaioken x10 just to lose. thats an issue of power scaling as the manga had ssjb goku beat hit with some relative ease. I'm assuming ssjb is 50x god, but what level ssj god is, I don't know. Its probably loads stronger than ssj3 by virtue of the whole "god ki" thing for destroyer god types. Using the anime has loads of scaling issues, such as vegeta clobbering ssj3 gotenks in base, but equal to caba. I prefer the manga myself, and ssjg is still cleverly utilized. >This was a pretty insane feat and more than anything we’ve seen before >We don’t see that until Super Perfect Cell. it was also a god form, not the typical ssj form. though I'm not satisfied with its portrayle in dbs, and the fnf movie for its ssjb form as it was one shotted by a damn laser, though thankfully this was done better in the dbs anime. but goku was ssjg level in the anime in base. also, db universes aren't as big as ours. it has the 4 galaxies, hell, heaven and the kaioshin worlds. I googles how many galaxies there are visible, and 100 billion galaxies was the answer. so destroying a db universe isn't as impressive as destroying 100 billion galaxies, compared to 4. its still better than a solar system, but at cells level, blowing up a solar system should be childs play for him in his perfect form. just blow up the sun, and you destroyed 99% of the content in the solar system. >We see some major power-ups in the Buu saga right. and some of those were just 2x jumps, but a 2x increase for buu is still huge. >so I assume Toriyama likely did the same with Cell what a 2x increase? Thats still huge! 2x a billion is still another billion for the guy who already eclipsed everyone else before anyway. >Toriyama is suddenly thinking in terms of the most conservative power-ups he's ever done before during that battle. its actually quite consistent. most 2x increases were considered huge, and some only had a 30% advantage. I think when we were younger we just weren't paying attention to what the number actually were and were like "whoa! a million! thats huge!" but it was only 2x stronger than the previous form. As to vegetto, his ssj1 was more powerful than buuhan. going by the dbs potara ruling, its A+B x10=X. X being vegetto. assuming vegeta is equal to goku, which maybe he is or isn't, (lets assume he is) vegettos ssj1 is x20 ssj. Thats a 1000x increase from goku. If ssj2 is 10x ssj, then what is ssj3? 10x ssj2? thats a 5000x increase. How is 1000x goku stronger than 5000x goku? The potara ruling seems to weigh in the other end of the spectrum, making the powerups in dbz seem small and trivial. Even vegetto seems nerfed. Even taking into account the "rival" boost they got according to old kai, he might be wrong about that too seeing as he was wrong about 2 mortals fusing. Even if it was 5x as much, it'd still be equal to the bigger ssj3 boost that some are prescribing, and goku didn't sound too confident about fighting base super buu, let alone buuhan. I might have been a bit off in my math, but ssj vegetto is not weaker than ssj3 goku, so if I made a mistake in that calculation, then I'd need to redo it. I was in a bit of a hurry on that one, so I could have made an error. In regards to ssj2 being so strong I suppose to paraphrase old kai on ssj2 "Wow! I didn't know ssj2 was so strong!" "Dude. gohan has the power. and it doesn't hurt he lived to outdo his father." If ssj3 is 4x ssj2 and 2x ssj, vegetto being 1000x goku as a ssj could very well mean his strength is...2x buu? maybe a bit more? maybe less? the manga doesn't seem to point towards a rival boost after all. I was wondering where that came from, and it might be a dub thing after all. I don't recall where thats from if its not in the manga. It seems like vegettos advantage isn't much more than buutenks advantage was over gohan. it might even be LESS than 2x.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 4:58:40 GMT
Why can't he regenerate stamina by standing still without being blown up? I believe wee’ve already been over this. He accepted a Senzu bean which most likely means he can’t regenerate stamina on his own. You suggested that Cell could’ve been lying but I’ve honestly lost count of how many theories you’ve proposed to dismiss the single theory I’ve been offering that Cell may have just been far stronger than the Cell Jrs so it barely cost him any energy. I like to hear fan theories but I’m not sure which one you truly believe since some of your theories conflict with each other. One suggested that spawning Cell Jrs cost Cell some energy but it regenerated on its own while another is that he doesn’t use up any energy at all due to enhanced ability. It’s difficult to argue that a 2x multiplier and a much higher one are equally plausible if you have to come up with all these theories in an attempt to support the 2x multiplier and I’ve been offering one. I’ll be honest it kinda feels like you’re throwing out possible theory at this point. In one comment, you said Vegeta could’ve gotten 3x stronger in base so his SSJ form was 3x stronger and ASSJ was a minimal boost now you’re saying we could’ve been wrong all along that SSJ increases their power by 50 which conflicts with the previous idea. If SSJ was only +150 million, Vegeta getting three times stronger in base would mean his SSJ power barely increased and so ASSJ would have to make the difference for him to dominate Semi-Perfect Cell who was at least twice as strong as the one cyborg who previously defeated SSJ Vegeta. We know why it most likely isn’t +150 million since eventually Goku’s Kaioken X20 would be far stronger than his SSJ just by getting a few times stronger in base. Herms from Kanzenshuu had a breakdown of all times fusion’s power was brought up. In the Daizenshuu guide books, they claim Potara has far greater power than the Fusion Dance. An old GT guidebook said that SSJ4 Gogeta had power “tens of times” greater than a single SSJ4 which is the same thing Vados said about Kelfa’s fusion being “tens of times” greater. The SEG guidebook, which is the one that revealed the multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3, said it multiplied their power. In a recent Jump article for DBS: Broly, it was said that Vegetto and Gogeta were “equally matched ultimate trump cards” which contradicts the old guidebook that said Potara was superior. Either Toriyama forgot or doesn’t care what the guidebooks said. It’s interesting that the SEG claiming Potara multiplies their power would contradict their idea of SSJ2 and SSJ3 having such low multipliers. Vegetto immediately transformed against Buuhan implying he was weaker than Buuhan in base. If Potara multiplies their power and both Goku and Vegeta are both over 3 million in base, base Vegetto would be +9 trillion. Either base Vegetto was far stronger than Buuhan or Buuhan was above base Vegetto and we’ve been severely lowballing the boost between each SSJ form. Once again, none of these examples were SSJ transformations and each one had evidence or directly stated to have doubled the character’s power. By this logic, SSJ2 wouldn’t be double of SSJ’s power since there’s statement or any implication in the manga. I never said FPSSJ had a higher multiplier. It was just mastery of the regular SSJ form. Whether mastering SSJ only increases Goku’s base or boosts the power of SSJ, it was very clear that Goku’s overall power in SSJ was far higher in the Cell Games than from the beginning of the Cell saga. As long as mastering SSJ raises their overall power more than training ASSJ and USSJ, those forms would be considered inferior. I already gave you the example of Max form Roshi of a bulky transformation that greatly raises his power. The fact that he never used it in battle in the original Dragonball could mean it hinders his speed like USSJ. In that form, it was implied his Kamehameha could kill Oozaru Goku so there’s already evidence that a bulky transformation could boost their power by more than 30%. To be fair, it’s not a complex model. Toriyama isn’t a mathematician but this is like elementary school math. We already went out over how Kanzenshuu explains that Toriyama had little to no involvement with the guidebooks. His editors work at the same company so they would probably be more aware of his lack of involvement in them than we are and they wouldn’t assume they’re being trolled or that it came directly from Toriyama unless there was a statement from him. Let’s assume it was from Toriyama. The Daizenshuu guidebook that first mentioned the 50x multiplier came out in 1996 so a few years after the Cell saga. If he only went with a 2x multiplier to troll someone many years after the manga ended, wouldn’t that mean he originally had a different power-up for SSJ2 in mind? It wouldn’t really be an act of trolling if he’s sharing his honest opinion of what it was the entire time. It was actually said that Beerus and Champa fighting could lead to the destruction of both universes and not just one. I’m not sure why it never happened again but it’s like other major feats in the series. For example, Goku vs Vegeta shook up the battle but stronger characters didn’t always do that and Cell’s Kamehameha could destroy the solar system but it was threatened in the Buu saga despite the characters being much stronger. Once you get the point across that the characters are this powerful, Toriyama may feel that he doesn’t have point it out in every subsequent battle. There’s nothing that implied it was something only Gods of Destruction were capable of. It’s still clear that SSJG was far beyond any previous SSJ form since Goku didn’t think fusion would work against Beerus and couldn’t believe such a realm of power could exist when he became a SSJG. You can’t seriously dismiss every example of a huge leap in power with “but 2x is huge and some battles only had a small percentage difference”. You did the same with Ashanark’s comment. I’ve known you for a while from the comment section so we should be aware that this tactic of cherry picking evidence isn’t a fair way to debate and never works. Ashanark and I both know there are power-ups and transformations far greater than 2x since we’re sharing examples of them so constantly ignoring them and repeatedly pointing out smaller percentage differences isn’t going to make us forgot. It only leads us to believe you are intentionally ignoring them because they conflicts with your argument. If you’re interested in continuing this discussion, stop this and try to address the points we’re making about there being far greater leaps in power than only the smaller ones you keep referencing. To be honest, Ashanark and I are more patient but Genghis would lock this thread because he’s done it before when he feels someone is using this tactic. I’ll try again. Max form Roshi and Piccolo Jr could destroy the moon with a PL of a few hundreds and the first person who could destroy a planet was Vegeta who was over 40x stronger than Piccolo when he destroyed the moon. The next big leap was first form Freeza could destroy a planet with minimum effort and almost 30x stronger than Vegeta. Going from planet to solar system buster is an even bigger leap so Freeza’s power-up from his first form to 100% wasn’t enough. Even with all the power-ups during the Cell saga, we only saw characters threaten the planet like Vegeta having to redirect his Final Flash, Cell’s self-destruction, and FPSSJ Goku’s Kamehameha. The fact that FPSSJ Goku’s Kamehameha only was said to threaten the Earth and Super Perfect Cell could threaten the solar system suggests it’s a huge jump from FPSSJ Goku’s power at the time. Based on how there was a huge power jump between each time Toriyama had a character perform the next big destruction feat, my question is that you think it’s fair for me to assume he could’ve done the same with Cell and had Super Perfect Cell far more than 2x stronger than they were before?
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Post by supergojita3 on Jul 30, 2019 22:43:10 GMT
Why can't he regenerate stamina by standing still without being blown up? I believe wee’ve already been over this. He accepted a Senzu bean which most likely means he can’t regenerate stamina on his own. You suggested that Cell could’ve been lying but I’ve honestly lost count of how many theories you’ve proposed to dismiss the single theory I’ve been offering that Cell may have just been far stronger than the Cell Jrs so it barely cost him any energy. I like to hear fan theories but I’m not sure which one you truly believe since some of your theories conflict with each other. One suggested that spawning Cell Jrs cost Cell some energy but it regenerated on its own while another is that he doesn’t use up any energy at all due to enhanced ability. It’s difficult to argue that a 2x multiplier and a much higher one are equally plausible if you have to come up with all these theories in an attempt to support the 2x multiplier and I’ve been offering one. I’ll be honest it kinda feels like you’re throwing out possible theory at this point. In one comment, you said Vegeta could’ve gotten 3x stronger in base so his SSJ form was 3x stronger and ASSJ was a minimal boost now you’re saying we could’ve been wrong all along that SSJ increases their power by 50 which conflicts with the previous idea. If SSJ was only +150 million, Vegeta getting three times stronger in base would mean his SSJ power barely increased and so ASSJ would have to make the difference for him to dominate Semi-Perfect Cell who was at least twice as strong as the one cyborg who previously defeated SSJ Vegeta. We know why it most likely isn’t +150 million since eventually Goku’s Kaioken X20 would be far stronger than his SSJ just by getting a few times stronger in base. Herms from Kanzenshuu had a breakdown of all times fusion’s power was brought up. In the Daizenshuu guide books, they claim Potara has far greater power than the Fusion Dance. An old GT guidebook said that SSJ4 Gogeta had power “tens of times” greater than a single SSJ4 which is the same thing Vados said about Kelfa’s fusion being “tens of times” greater. The SEG guidebook, which is the one that revealed the multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3, said it multiplied their power. In a recent Jump article for DBS: Broly, it was said that Vegetto and Gogeta were “equally matched ultimate trump cards” which contradicts the old guidebook that said Potara was superior. Either Toriyama forgot or doesn’t care what the guidebooks said. It’s interesting that the SEG claiming Potara multiplies their power would contradict their idea of SSJ2 and SSJ3 having such low multipliers. Vegetto immediately transformed against Buuhan implying he was weaker than Buuhan in base. If Potara multiplies their power and both Goku and Vegeta are both over 3 million in base, base Vegetto would be +9 trillion. Either base Vegetto was far stronger than Buuhan or Buuhan was above base Vegetto and we’ve been severely lowballing the boost between each SSJ form. Once again, none of these examples were SSJ transformations and each one had evidence or directly stated to have doubled the character’s power. By this logic, SSJ2 wouldn’t be double of SSJ’s power since there’s statement or any implication in the manga. I never said FPSSJ had a higher multiplier. It was just mastery of the regular SSJ form. Whether mastering SSJ only increases Goku’s base or boosts the power of SSJ, it was very clear that Goku’s overall power in SSJ was far higher in the Cell Games than from the beginning of the Cell saga. As long as mastering SSJ raises their overall power more than training ASSJ and USSJ, those forms would be considered inferior. I already gave you the example of Max form Roshi of a bulky transformation that greatly raises his power. The fact that he never used it in battle in the original Dragonball could mean it hinders his speed like USSJ. In that form, it was implied his Kamehameha could kill Oozaru Goku so there’s already evidence that a bulky transformation could boost their power by more than 30%. To be fair, it’s not a complex model. Toriyama isn’t a mathematician but this is like elementary school math. We already went out over how Kanzenshuu explains that Toriyama had little to no involvement with the guidebooks. His editors work at the same company so they would probably be more aware of his lack of involvement in them than we are and they wouldn’t assume they’re being trolled or that it came directly from Toriyama unless there was a statement from him. Let’s assume it was from Toriyama. The Daizenshuu guidebook that first mentioned the 50x multiplier came out in 1996 so a few years after the Cell saga. If he only went with a 2x multiplier to troll someone many years after the manga ended, wouldn’t that mean he originally had a different power-up for SSJ2 in mind? It wouldn’t really be an act of trolling if he’s sharing his honest opinion of what it was the entire time. It was actually said that Beerus and Champa fighting could lead to the destruction of both universes and not just one. I’m not sure why it never happened again but it’s like other major feats in the series. For example, Goku vs Vegeta shook up the battle but stronger characters didn’t always do that and Cell’s Kamehameha could destroy the solar system but it was threatened in the Buu saga despite the characters being much stronger. Once you get the point across that the characters are this powerful, Toriyama may feel that he doesn’t have point it out in every subsequent battle. There’s nothing that implied it was something only Gods of Destruction were capable of. It’s still clear that SSJG was far beyond any previous SSJ form since Goku didn’t think fusion would work against Beerus and couldn’t believe such a realm of power could exist when he became a SSJG. You can’t seriously dismiss every example of a huge leap in power with “but 2x is huge and some battles only had a small percentage difference”. You did the same with Ashanark’s comment. I’ve known you for a while from the comment section so we should be aware that this tactic of cherry picking evidence isn’t a fair way to debate and never works. Ashanark and I both know there are power-ups and transformations far greater than 2x since we’re sharing examples of them so constantly ignoring them and repeatedly pointing out smaller percentage differences isn’t going to make us forgot. It only leads us to believe you are intentionally ignoring them because they conflicts with your argument. If you’re interested in continuing this discussion, stop this and try to address the points we’re making about there being far greater leaps in power than only the smaller ones you keep referencing. To be honest, Ashanark and I are more patient but Genghis would lock this thread because he’s done it before when he feels someone is using this tactic. I’ll try again. Max form Roshi and Piccolo Jr could destroy the moon with a PL of a few hundreds and the first person who could destroy a planet was Vegeta who was over 40x stronger than Piccolo when he destroyed the moon. The next big leap was first form Freeza could destroy a planet with minimum effort and almost 30x stronger than Vegeta. Going from planet to solar system buster is an even bigger leap so Freeza’s power-up from his first form to 100% wasn’t enough. Even with all the power-ups during the Cell saga, we only saw characters threaten the planet like Vegeta having to redirect his Final Flash, Cell’s self-destruction, and FPSSJ Goku’s Kamehameha. The fact that FPSSJ Goku’s Kamehameha only was said to threaten the Earth and Super Perfect Cell could threaten the solar system suggests it’s a huge jump from FPSSJ Goku’s power at the time. Based on how there was a huge power jump between each time Toriyama had a character perform the next big destruction feat, my question is that you think it’s fair for me to assume he could’ve done the same with Cell and had Super Perfect Cell far more than 2x stronger than they were before? >I believe wee’ve already been over this. He accepted a Senzu bean which most likely means he can’t regenerate stamina on his own. That doesn't prove anything though. its a theory that he can't on his own, yet we see him regenerate all his stamina from 1 single cell that regenerated his body. So, it could just be a plot hole, or that he just needs to stand around and regenerate, which is what he did with the cell jrs. he made them, and did nothing. so why can't he just regenerate his stamina like most humans do from strenuous activity? I could run a mile and take a break and be back at full stamina, which even demon king piccolo made a demon kid at near his own power, so its clearly not a 1 to 1 ratio, even for king piccolos birthing method. If his power is accurate to the guide books at 250, then making a guy close to his own to trample over tien at like 180 or whatever would be maybe 200. He wasn't tired at all, so it isn't like cell had to dump much into making a cell jr. >If SSJ was only +150 million, Like I said, I don't believe in that theory. And dave said fp ssj was like 750 million, but I don't think fpssj adds any additional power to the multiplier. Its just a more stable form that uses less energy, and you don't expend energy becoming a ssj. The guide books which I take with a grain of salt, due to it not being part of the manga and dbs retcons, doesn't specify fpssj as being specifically "stronger" but that it seems to me its referring to goku and gohan specifically as they drew ssj out to its limits just about. Goku simply had a higher base form. >which is the one that revealed the multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3, said it multiplied their power. This is simply a dbs retcon. We know now that the potara aren't permanent. They don't multiply A x B either, which is disapointing really. ssj vegetto is only 1000x goku, if we assume vegeta is equal to him, which is good enough I guess. >it was said that Vegetto and Gogeta were “equally matched ultimate trump cards” I read a different translation that made it sound like they were equally useful. But equal in power, or equally trump cards is not a bad way to put it. vegetto still has the edge even if he is equal in power, due to the 1 hour limit. >Either Toriyama forgot or doesn’t care what the guidebooks said. He could have changed his mind, much like how he changed his mind on bardocks story in db zero or whatever its called. He liked the bardock anime so much he put it in the manga, then retconned it. That being said, dbs pretty much asserts that the potara are a matter of adding A plus B and multiplying it by 10. It mentions multiplication here, but it doesn't outright specify a x b, but it could be in a different guide book, because I thought I saw it. multiplication could still mean x10, but whatever. potara makes vegettos base like x20 base goku, so his ssj is pretty much 1000x goku. if ssj vegetto is 1000x goku then ssj3 goku has to be less than that. assuming the math is right of course. >Either base Vegetto was far stronger than Buuhan or Buuhan was above base Vegetto and we’ve been severely lowballing the boost between each SSJ form. buutenks just doubled buu's power, so buuhan might be like 2.5x base super buu. hmm. maybe vegetto as a ssj had a 25% advantage all along? vegeta had a 25% advantage over cui, and buuhan did seem pretty bad at ki detection and control, so maybe buuhan just fought sloppily and didn't realize he needed to fight better. It's not like we've seen curb stomps from a 25% advantage before. >Once again, none of these examples were SSJ transformations and each one had evidence or directly stated to have doubled the character’s power. By this logic, SSJ2 wouldn’t be double of SSJ’s power since there’s statement or any implication in the manga. Thats not the point. a ssj transformation is not the issue in contention. its the over all increase. we've seen instances of a 2x increase and the fighter was just overwhelming the opposition with not even a power gap of 50%. super buu and gotenks were about even the whole time, so his absorbing a guy who was his equal would make him twice as strong. if goku and piccolo vs radditz combined, adding their power together, it'd make a guy around 800 or so. that's a near 2x increase for goku. Its the same idea for buu. he just absorbed a guy who was his near equal, so he jumped by 2x. So unless ssj3 gotenks was 10x as strong as buu, it wouldn't be as small as a 2x increase. in this instance, I don't need the manga to state outright, but its an inference one can make on their own given the context. >SSJ2 wouldn’t be double of SSJ’s power since there’s statement or any implication in the manga. all we can really assert by the manga is that ssj2 is stronger. by how much, we can't say. but I doubt ssj2 goku is half as strong as ssj vegetto, by what we know of the potara rules. if we used a 10x increase for ssj3 over 2, ssj3 goku would be stronger than ssj vegetto, and thats impossible. so ssj and its multipliers would have to be smaller than a 10x increase unfortunately. I think the misconception for the ssj2 multiplier might stem from the anime, where ssj2 gohan tanked the tri beams from cell jrs, and that attack put tien on top of cell in his 2nd form who was fodder all around. This is what led me to believe when I was younger that ssj2 must be some incredibly high multiplier, but this scene was anime only, and non canon as a result. so if we ignore the anime filler, a 2x increase is possible, and with the potara retcon and actual in universe stated multiplier, its also more likely. plus its not coming from the young kaioshin, so its more likely its correct. vados to this point right now, has not been shown to be incompetent, and the angels are all around quite knowledgeable. > it was implied his Kamehameha could kill Oozaru Goku so there’s already evidence that a bulky transformation could boost their power by more than 30%. in db goku could go to the moon and not die, but I see what you mean. Wasn't that after goku took damage from the thunder attack by roshi? he was certainly nearing his limit and was going to quit, and then went oozaruu. so his 10x multiplier would only multiply a weaker goku who was damaged. Much like how vegeta as an oozaruu was weaker than his fp oozaruu power, due to making a moon ball. Though while it was IMPLIED to be able to kill goku, that was not roshis target at all. Yamcha was just reacting to what he thought was going to happen. the attack never hit goku, nor was he even going to be struck by it. So that can't be used as evidence for the bulk up form being greater than 30%. It was stated that the spirit bomb could kill vegeta, even at half its OG power, but it failed to do so, and any implications from an attack that didn't hit a great ape, and was never intended to hit the great ape can't be used either. Yamcha just failed to understand roshis motive is what we are left to understand. >There’s nothing that implied it was something only Gods of Destruction were capable of. The writer of dbs said in a tweet that goku might be able to destroy a universe but he'd have to be a hakaishin. This implied to me the god ki taboo isn't just a hakaishin vs hakaishin thing. ssjg goku and beerus were fighting, and with the dbs writers word on it, any discrepancies can be cleared up with the base ball episode. I suppose gokus explanation wasn't entirely clear, but this isn't my opinion on it, but the dbs staff themselves. >It’s still clear that SSJG was far beyond any previous SSJ form since Goku didn’t think fusion would work against Beerus and couldn’t believe such a realm of power could exist when he became a SSJG. This would appear true, but caba who isn't a ssjg and never had the god ritual surpassed that level of power as a mere ssj, equaling vegeta in base who later went on to wreck ssj3 gotenks, though I could easily THAT up to dbs and shitty writing. Goku was a ssjg level guy in base and struggled with every body. >cherry picking evidence isn’t a fair way to debate and never works its not cherry picking. radditz had a 4x advantage and one shotted goku on roshis island. Did he need to be 4x stronger? no. I'm talking about the minimum required power to do something, not over kill power levels. I'm only saying that you NEED a 25% advantage, but an advantage greater than that also works. I don't know of a fight in dbz where a person was 2x stronger than a guy and had issues in a 1 on 1 fight. Radditz was able to one shot goku 1 on 1, and was able to dominate goku and piccolo, but toyed with his opponents. It was after gohan headbutted radditz that he started to feel some strain in that fight, citing gohans attack as the reason he couldn't shake off goku. that was a 3 on 1 fight. Then theres piccolo who was 3500 in power, who lost handily many times vs nappa at 4000. maybe I'm not looking hard enough, but if you can find a person who had a 2x advantage and lost in 1 on 1 combat with no interference, then you might make a good point. So far its been the other way around. You seem to be the one cherry picking the evidence actually. so I'm going to re read the manga from radditz on, and see if I can find anything of interest, but so far I've seen no evidence that a 10x advantage is required for ssj2 to curb stomp a guy. >so constantly ignoring them and repeatedly like what? radditz? he didn't require a 4x advantage, and it was shown he had been assaulted by a guy with a 1000 or so attack. radditz wasn't at full power anymore. Goku vs the ginyu force demonstrated a feat of 60,000, so that was also a 2x advantage he showcased. vegeta was at about 30,000 and recoome beat him easily as well as the other 2. so he's at least 30,000 or more, so given ginyus testimony, a 60,000 power level could do the trick. thats a 2x advantage at the most, and could be less if recoome were higher. at 60,000 ginyu asserts goku is no match at his full power. and we know its 120,000. a 2x advantage over a 60k guy. as it continues to rise, ginyu gets worried. his power rises to 180,000. which is a 33% advantage. So either a small advantage is required to squash the opponent or it isn't. because thats what the official canon shows. This would actually be less than a 60% advantage I suggested gohan could be at. So why is ginyu horrified when he only has a 33% advantage? at 60,000 he one shotted burter and recoome, at a 2x advantage, or thats at least what is suggested by ginyu. as a strong warrior he would probably know what it takes to effortlessly defeat someone at 30,000. especially one of his own team mates. if a 33% is nothing at all, why is ginyu so scared? its not like he's got a 2x advantage. Lets see what vegeta thinks of a 2x advantage. yeah he's pretty fucking terrified. so the ginyu vs goku fight looks pretty one sided, and goku lost due to magic body switching shenanigans. Had goku been a ssj vs ginyu at 90,000 and went ssj2 to double his ki, he'd still have the same advantage. > It only leads us to believe you are intentionally ignoring them because they conflicts with your argument. like what exactly? are you ignoring the actual scaling that was done in the manga? I mean, so the scaling proves that you need a small advantage to win. So what? >about there being far greater leaps in power than only the smaller ones you keep referencing. But you haven't proven that assj is anything at all. all we know is that its stronger than a normal ssj. Theres no proof its 2x or even 3x. I haven't seen any proof, just your opinion on it. and though I do respect your opinion on it I simply disagree on it. My head canon simply sides with the guide books on this. Your head canon does not, and while I do respect your opinion on this matter, you're opinion on this hasn't swayed me thus far. To be fair, I don't think I'm going to change your mind on this, but I don't intend to. youre free to hold your opinion, as it is pretty ambiguous on the assj and ussj forms. > Genghis would lock this thread because he’s done it before when he feels someone is using this tactic The tactic of what? asking for proof? The fact that we've seen a 25% advantage dominate a foe means its not required to have any more, but certainly a bigger advantage wouldn't hurt. Goku could have used the kaioken on ginyu x10, and it would have been a massacre all the same. he used a x2 kaioken and ginyu was terrified. If it wasn't an issue, then ginyu could have fought him shrugging off the power level of his opponent, saying "its just a 33% advantage, loser! I'll still win!" I don't mean to sound rude, but I've answered all your questions and rebutted them patiently. My opinion wasn't that ssj2 MUST be a x2 increase but that a x2 is possible. If it did happen to be x10 or so on, I'd be ok with that too. Genghis actually used a similar argument on zenbuu against me years back, when I said zenbuu could be beaten with the sealing spell of babadi, and genghis said he might have figured out how to counter it, and I said "nuh uh. theres no proof he did" and he said something along the lines "I'm not saying he definitely did, bu that he could have. You're the one who is saying he didn't. it was just a possibility, quit putting words in my mouth." What I've said so far is that I use the guide book ssj multipliers because I liked them, not that you had to use them because I do. if you prefer a 10x upgrade for ssj2, be my guest! I'm not stopping you! I've so far not seen any evidence that ssj2 is any more than a 2x increase, but thats not to mean it couldn't be! It could very well be a 10x increase and any discrepancies would be vados being wrong or trying to deceive the crowd in the stands to gain an advantage. lying about the potara wouldn't be so bad, because it would lead u7 into a false sense of security. Its not a bad idea, but it lacks merit for the time being. if ssj2 is 10x, then ssj vegetto would have to be 2x ssj2 goku. And while I do enjoy the guide book materials, I don't treat them as a holy relic. I don't expect you to either. I use the guide books for my own personal amusement, not as 100% canon. And I don't see why that should offend anyone. Like, I thought this was a conversation comparing our thoughts on this, not a debate to decide who was right. The ambiguity of the manga and anime make it impossible to pin down an exact science on a lot of things, so using the prior fights and scaling them to see what the minimum you'd need seemed like a good start. if it happened to be more than 2x for ssj2 then thats certainly possible if we ignore dbs, which I'm ok with. using dbs even if it does help the 2x ssj2 argument is rather unnecessary. I don't feel like ssj2 being any certain level of improvement ruins the scene. All we need to know is gohan is able to beat cell, but his advantage over him could be argued using the prior fights and scaling them. Though, if ssj2 were 10x, and cell zenkai'd to 10x that, I'm ok with this as its a trivial thing to be worried about. I'm honestly ok with either level, and I can respect your opinion, but it seems like you don't respect mine. > Super Perfect Cell could threaten the solar system suggests it’s a huge jump from FPSSJ Goku’s power at the time. theres a few issues with this. we are low balling gokus fp attack to just planet level. freeza could destroy a planet, goku also could destroy a planet, he didn't need to be a ssj to do it. vegetas final flash was also a threat to the planet and everyone on it if it hit wrong. yet the 2 attacks are not even close to each other. planetary threats are not new, and if it did blow up earth and jupiter in 1 shot, would it be any less cataclysmic if it only blew up earth? Blowing up a planet doesn't require much force, and all you'd need to do to blow up the 9 (8 rather) planets is guide a giant ki attack that is guided like the kamehameha into each of them. To do this, you might as well be 10x freeza 1st form. so about 5 million. ssj goku could do that if he tried, or even cell if he had just split his attack into 9 equal parts and shot them around into each one. Or just blow up the sun. its 99% of the solar systems mass any way. so could cell blow up the sun? considering he never did it, this is an area of contention among the fan base, but I believe he could. Freeza simply started a chain reaction that destroyed namek, destroying the core. Blowing up the core and starting a chain reaction isn't really something i thought of with a star, but I suppose it could be done with ease when you get to cells level. Beerus was stated to have destroy a star too, but I think we can agree thats an odd feat to boast about, when 2 sagas ago a villain also could do that. The other possibility is that they didn't care about the other planets, as they were standing on earth. who cares about venus? Blowing up the earth isn't a feat, its a threat. Its a point to ensure that the readers know that the gang is in danger if goku decides to let loose this giant ki attack. Beerus blowing up a star isn't much of a feat either, its just tuesday for him. >Based on how there was a huge power jump between each time Toriyama had a character perform the next big destruction feat, my question is that you think it’s fair for me to assume he could’ve done the same with Cell and had Super Perfect Cell far more than 2x stronger than they were before? sure. its like boasting how beerus could blow up a star. it'd be easier for spc than cell, but even easier for beerus. It'd be the difference between goku beating nappa and goku beating nappa with kaioken. it'd take some effort, but he was getting the job done, and it seemed like he was holding back too. then theres just bulking up to that giant ussj form, making a huge ki blast and blasting it that force, that would make it even easier. Thats not an argument for a bigger jump in power, thats just a casual conversation about star busting. We're pretty much talking about if vegeta could destroy a planet, except we scaled roshis moon feat to a planet, to a star. The diameter of the Moon is 3,474 km. Now, let's compare this to the Earth. The diameter of the Earth is 12,742 km. This means that the Moon is approximately 27% the size of the Earth. so if you go by that scaling, then you'd need to be 4x stronger than roshi. radditz is planet level. but if we assume that theres some trick to it, and you need a big ki attack then sure, vegeta is planet level. if radditz had known proper ki control and a good ki attack like the kamehameha, or the galik gun, he might be able to pull it off. His whole arsonal sucked, so he couldn't do it with brute force, but a charged ki attack made for that could probably do it. Unless the moon is smaller than our moon, which could be the case, as the db universe is only a handful of galaxies, vs the over 100 billion galaxies observed in our universe. So who's to say their moon is the same as ours? so to blow up a star like the sun, you'd need to be 1,300,000x stronger than radditz on earth, and have a good ki attack. so like 1,560,000,000 1 billion, 560 million. So if cell is around a billion, he's almost there. and then theres his ussj giant form. I feel like he could pull it off. but it'd be pretty tough, though the kamehameha can increase your power by 3x so I guess he could. doubling it to 2 billion would certainly make it easier. So while I think that cell could probably blow up the sun, that would assume it requires the same force as it would a planet, and maybe because it is a star, that might make it difficult to do with sheer brute force. Though ki seems to handle itself differently than conventional man made explosives, and has its own unique properties. This was a more interesting topic than I initially gave it credit. I liked looking up the data on this.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 2:41:59 GMT
That doesn't prove anything though. its a theory that he can't on his own, yet we see him regenerate all his stamina from 1 single cell that regenerated his body. Yes, after a Zenkai. You’re saying a scene Cell accepting a Senzu bean doesn’t prove anything but then you offer multiple theories that have no evidence to support them and require me to believe the characters were lying. It’s fine if these are your personal theories but you clearly have a reason to offer so many with some conflicting with each other because it would make it harder to argue the 2x multiplier by taking all these statements at face value. If I believe Goku was telling the truth that Cell lost energy when he regenerated and when he gave Cell a Senzu bean, the only assumption I have to make is that Cell’s Zenkai was big enough to make up for the power he lost from regenerating. If you read the information provided by Herms, Shueisha was never consistent with the power-up from fusion in their various guidebooks. Herms said In 2009, the manga Super Exciting Guide described the power-up from the Potara as so incredible it’s like multiplying the two characters’ power levels together. The caption even helpfully reads “Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto”. He also mentioned that the same was said for the Fusion Dance in the SEG. Shueisha also wrote the GT Perfect Files that said Gogeta “was tens of times” stronger than a regular SSJ4 which is what Toei decided to use for Potara in the DBS anime. The DBS manga doesn’t bring up this line so it seems that Toriyama didn’t specify since everything coming from Toriyama’s outline appears in both versions from what we know. Either way, “tens of times” doesn’t mean exactly ten times. You were bringing up these examples to argue that SSJ2 could be 2x just because these other power-ups were. We know we can come to the conclusion that Buutenks was 2x Super Buu based on the fact that SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu were about equal but you can’t do the same with SSJ2. This point doesn’t support your argument because Toriyama went out of his way to either directly state or provide evidence that these power-ups were twice as strong as the characters were before. If anything, this would be evidence that he probably doesn’t consider SSJ2 2x SSJ since he made no attempt to imply that in the manga. Goku assumed the Spirit Bomb was enough to kill Vegeta but the manga proved him wrong by showing that Vegeta survived. If an author wants you to believe a character is lying, the author provides something that contradicts what character said or that they were misinformed. This is just another example of the extra effort required to believe the 2x multiplier. You have to assume ASSJ and USSJ were less than doubled their power which goes against the implication that Vegeta and Trunks assumed these forms were powerful enough to be considered the next level of SSJ. When given an example of Roshi using a similar form and growing a few times stronger, you have to assume Goku’s friends were wrong to assume Goku was in any danger when nothing implied that. The anime’s inconsistencies aren’t relevant here because the extended cut of BoG and the DBS manga also had Goku question if fusion would be enough and say that he didn’t believe this realm of power was possible. I could be wrong about them being universe level if the tweet from Toshio means that Goku has to become a God of Destruction and he doesn’t mean reach that level of power. UI Goku and Jiren were said to be causing the entire World of Void to shake but that didn’t happen when the Gods of Destruction were having a battle royale implying Jiren and Goku were causing more destruction than them. You can’t be serious here. I already acknowledged multiple times your point about the small percentage differences but that only reflected SOME battles and I gave examples of Toriyama had huge power-ups in the last two final battles. Vegeta became 10x stronger in the Saiyan saga while Freeza powered-up from a small percentage to 100% and Goku became over 40x stronger with SSJ which suggests Toriyama could also have huge power-ups in the final battle of the Cell saga but you only repeat that 2x is huge and that a small percentage is enough. That’s clearly not my point since Toriyama obviously didn’t go with the absolute smallest necessary power difference in these climactic battles. Ashanark points out how Toriyama doesn’t show restraint when it comes to the power scaling as he moved up from each threat to the next during the Saiyan and Freeza sagas but you again respond with the small power differences during the early Freeza saga something he already acknowledged in his comment. I know you understand what we’re trying to convey here which is why I felt you were intentionally avoiding the main point. We know FPSSJ Goku is far stronger than Freeza and he could destroy the Earth several times over. The solar system is big so if only the Earth is in danger from his attack then the most straightforward assumption is that his attack isn’t powerful enough to cover all that empty space and affect other planets. If Cell claims he can destroy the solar system with his Kamehameha, we’re intended to assume he could do it in one powerful blast and not redirect his Kamehameha to every planet in the solar system one at a time. Earth is the only inhabited planet in the solar system so the same number of people are getting killed whether he destroys only the Earth or the entire solar system. Toriyama’s intent behind this claim is to show Cell’s power is far beyond the characters who were only capable of destroying the Earth including FPSSJ Goku. I believe this is the simplest way to interpret this scene. What you’re suggesting would be another example of a statement that can’t be taken at face value and needs to have some other more complex interpretation for it to work with the 2x multiplier. Actually the power necessary to destroy the Earth is far more than just 4x the moon. Outskirts Battledome has a chart that explains how much energy is required to jump from each destructive capacity to the next: Moon Level - (29.6 exatons). The energy it takes to destroy Earth's moon. Planet Level - (57.3 zettatons) This has always had an easy model because of the earth. This is based on its gravitational binding energy, which is the energy needed to separate all of its mass to infinity, permanently dispersing it. Any character destroying a planet with brute force is playing with this level of energy. Star Level - (164.913 tenatons) The ability to destroy the sun. Solar System Level - (5.709 Foe) The ability to destroy all the major bodies in the solar system, from the sun out to Neptune. Tons of TNT begin to no longer be adequate to measure this energy, and so from this point forward, destructive capacity is defined as units of Foe, or supernova equivalent energy. The total mass-energy of the sun has actually been estimated to be enough to disperse all the planets up to and including Neptune. Gamma ray bursts also unleash this amount of energy. So, any character who can throw anti-matter suns around is on this level. There are 1000 exatons in a zettaton so going from moon to planet level is increase of over 1000. There are 1 billion exatons in a tenaton so the energy required to destroy the sun is over 2 billion times planet level. One Foe is 24000 tenatons so that’s a few trillion times above a planet buster. Toriyama isn’t a scientist so they’re probably not going to bother with exact numbers but most people understand basic astronomy and that the size of the solar system relative to the Earth is far greater than comparing the Earth to the moon. Toriyama seems to know that since he didn’t decide to introduce a character threatening the solar system until a few sagas after the first character to threaten the Earth.
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