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Post by EvilXoda on Dec 6, 2021 4:17:36 GMT
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Post by godjacob on Dec 6, 2021 4:18:54 GMT
Okay that Broly answer made me angrier than it should. It is literal confirmation Broly's powered by the plot. Nothing about it is "logical"
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Post by EvilXoda on Dec 6, 2021 5:30:28 GMT
Okay that Broly answer made me angrier than it should. It is literal confirmation Broly's powered by the plot. Nothing about it is "logical" IKR. "Because plot" is never an answer. I guess it's cool that he answered my question, but it's kinda frustrating.
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Post by fionordequester on Dec 6, 2021 18:16:31 GMT
"He's as strong as the plot needs him to be" may be the worst on a story telling level... But I'm personally angrier about "[your question] isn't important". That's... there's gotta be a way to phrase that.
That being said, someone please ask him this.
"What point did Bujin serve? He never got a redemption, he didn't contribute anything to Bojack's demise, and you had him die before any ethical dilemma could occur. What was his purpose? "
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Post by oung on Dec 6, 2021 18:54:11 GMT
I'm fine with Broly becoming as strong as the plot needs him to be, do we really need a mathematical rate at which his power increases? It's some magic bullshit in the first place. Just like Toriyama never expanded on the multipliers and stuff. It really shouldn't matter because these things aren't all that interesting or well written in the first place, they certainly don't serve the plot.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 6, 2021 22:11:19 GMT
I'm fine with Broly becoming as strong as the plot needs him to be, do we really need a mathematical rate at which his power increases? It's some magic bullshit in the first place. Just like Toriyama never expanded on the multipliers and stuff. It really shouldn't matter because these things aren't all that interesting or well written in the first place, they certainly don't serve the plot. DBM was a series that was supposed to be more conscious of this thing. It was the series that tried to have a more rigid, more consistent scaling with things. If a weaker character got flicked by someone a few tiers higher, they exploded. Etc. So Broly having the lazy "he's as strong as he needs to be lol" is the most visible demonstration of backtracking on this idea.
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Post by oung on Dec 6, 2021 22:34:46 GMT
DBM was a series that was supposed to be more conscious of this thing. It was the series that tried to have a more rigid, more consistent scaling with things. If a weaker character got flicked by someone a few tiers higher, they exploded. Etc. Yeah and what did we end up with? Nonsensical power scales all over the place full of inconsistencies and some characters just randomly switching tiers whenever the story feels like it. Just like Namek DBZ and the infamous zenkais, and even Saiyans DBZ where the humans got like 5 times stronger than Goku in 1/3 the time, lol. Maybe Toriyama shouldn't have put numbers on his characters. But anyway, we've already seen Broly get stupid x10 powerups in 10 seconds just by getting angrier (in his fight against Vegeto). There's no proper scaling here, there never was. If there was then Broly would already have an [infinite] powerlevel, a few hours would be enough for that. So yeah, his powers are plot based. Nothing new here.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 6, 2021 23:09:16 GMT
DBM was a series that was supposed to be more conscious of this thing. It was the series that tried to have a more rigid, more consistent scaling with things. If a weaker character got flicked by someone a few tiers higher, they exploded. Etc. Yeah and what did we end up with? Nonsensical power scales all over the place full of inconsistencies and some characters just randomly switching tiers whenever the story feels like it. Just like Namek DBZ and the infamous zenkais, and even Saiyans DBZ where the humans got like 5 times stronger than Goku in 1/3 the time, lol. Maybe Toriyama shouldn't have put numbers on his characters. But anyway, we've already seen Broly get stupid x10 powerups in 10 seconds just by getting angrier (in his fight against Vegeto). There's no proper scaling here, there never was. If there was then Broly would already have an [infinite] powerlevel, a few hours would be enough for that. So yeah, his powers are plot based. Nothing new here. Difference is Toriyama never pretended to care about that stuff. He never was a guy who tried to outline some hard power scale and even made fun of the concepts. DBM prided itself on taking that aspect more seriously, yet we ended up with some Toriyama level jumps in logic and nonsense anyway without even a comedic punch line. You are right DBM Broly has always been this stupid (And yet got worse with time somehow) but to hear an admission his strength is literal plot power is gonna be an annoying thing to certain viewers.
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Post by fionordequester on Dec 6, 2021 23:32:11 GMT
It's weird, really. Salagor obviously cares about this comic--we know that... Yet, he can't be bothered to remember details, like...
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1) Which Piccolos had what beans in the Majin Bra fight (he himself admitted he wasn't keeping track).
2) Him saying Broly can't overcome a black hole...before then having him do exactly that.
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Nor, for that matter, can he come up with an explanation for Broly's invincibility besides "he just is". Nor can he be bothered to make his story consistent with the novel he (presumably) signs off on.
So it's like "ok, clearly your own story isn't that important...so what IS important?". What is it about his webcomic that keeps him going? What is it, if not telling his story?
Is it just a popcorn flick? Does he just like seeing Asura draw muscly men slamming into each other? Does he just like it when Asura draws Bra? Does he just keep his comic going for bragging rights? So he can say "I've had the longest fancomic out of anyone else on the internet?"
What's the point of it all?
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 7, 2021 1:04:19 GMT
It's weird, really. Salagor obviously cares about this comic--we know that... Yet, he can't be bothered to remember details, like... ------- 1) Which Piccolos had what beans in the Majin Bra fight (he himself admitted he wasn't keeping track). 2) Him saying Broly can't overcome a black hole...before then having him do exactly that. ------- Nor, for that matter, can he come up with an explanation for Broly's invincibility besides "he just is". Nor can he be bothered to make his story consistent with the novel he (presumably) signs off on. So it's like "ok, clearly your own story isn't that important...so what IS important?". What is it about his webcomic that keeps him going? What is it, if not telling his story? Is it just a popcorn flick? Does he just like seeing Asura draw muscly men slamming into each other? Does he just like it when Asura draws Bra? Does he just keep his comic going for bragging rights? So he can say "I've had the longest fancomic out of anyone else on the internet?" What's the point of it all? I think it is less lack of caring and more the longer this comic goes on the more details it is to keep track of. Actual professional writers and artists have a difficult time keeping up with all the details of their work. The more work people have to do to make their work it can be shockingly easy how fast someone can lose track of something. When I wrote fan fiction I was passionate about it that I would sometimes I have to reread a lot of old chapters to keep track of what happened and confirm if my memory was right about certain details. It was simple stuff like keeping track of who was where, dates/timeline, what item a character got another character etc that become surprisingly easy to forget. Of course that is not counting cross referencing wiki or two to try to keep track of what certain characters said or did in canon to try to keep my story consistent with the time frame I was writing in. All of that can get time consuming and it can be easy to forget these little details when working on it. Some stuff like Broly I guarantee you is run by rule of cool and was too overpowered that the initial idea worked for the Vegetto fight, but likely wasn’t really given as much thought as it should have on the trickle down effect of having a character who is literally invincible and has essentially unlimited power would mean for the story as a whole. The idea of Broly and having characters needing to do other things beyond be stronger than him sounds better than the reality of it. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if Salagir truly felt he could come up with several creative ways to deal with Broly until he had to sit down and think about it. I don’t necessarily think he stopped caring, but it is a combination of things that makes it hard to keep up with details and likely not seeing how certain things might have a negative impact. It is likely why U16 Bra comes off worse than she is intended to be and why Broly’s power runs more and more on file of plot over any other rule.
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Post by Skarr on Dec 7, 2021 12:06:09 GMT
Difference is Toriyama never pretended to care about that stuff. He never was a guy who tried to outline some hard power scale and even made fun of the concepts. DBM prided itself on taking that aspect more seriously, yet we ended up with some Toriyama level jumps in logic and nonsense anyway without even a comedic punch line. I think DBM cared about consistent power scaling as much as any other fanfic. People call them out when they notice a discrepancy in a fanfic so usually the author tries to avoid them. It's not like Salagir included power scaling rules on the FAQ and most of them came from answering fan questions in the comments over ten years ago. Even Toriyama talked about wanting to keep things consistent and thought process behind transformations in interviews. He also talked about having bad memory and difficult to keep track of everything. So it's like "ok, clearly your own story isn't that important...so what IS important?". What is it about his webcomic that keeps him going? What is it, if not telling his story? Is it just a popcorn flick? Does he just like seeing Asura draw muscly men slamming into each other? Does he just like it when Asura draws Bra? Does he just keep his comic going for bragging rights? So he can say "I've had the longest fancomic out of anyone else on the internet?" What's the point of it all? From my experience, what keeps any fan project going is having fun making a tribute to series they enjoyed growing up. There's not really any reward other than fellow fans giving their feedback. I think they still care about consistency but some details they overlook or forget if they haven't been brought up in years. Gast & Palz is a parody but I still try to keep it consistent with what's been established in earlier chapters. It's not that long of a story but I know I have to go back and check some chapters because I don't remember every detail or plot point. In some cases, I notice an inconsistency after releasing a chapter so I go back and edit it. That's only possible if you have a story that not many people are reading so no one would really care or pay attention if you revised something.
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Post by fionordequester on Dec 7, 2021 18:07:55 GMT
I think they still care about consistency but some details they overlook or forget if they haven't been brought up in years. Gast & Palz is a parody but I still try to keep it consistent with what's been established in earlier chapters. It's not that long of a story but I know I have to go back and check some chapters because I don't remember every detail or plot point. In some cases, I notice an inconsistency after releasing a chapter so I go back and edit it. That's only possible if you have a story that not many people are reading so no one would really care or pay attention if you revised something. The difference, for me, is that sometimes he's not even consistent in the same chapter. For example, keeping track of which Piccolo was which (vs Bra) was as easy as... "One has a torn shirt/missing turban/missing cape/whatever, the other doesn't" He didn't need to reread previous chapters at the time of writing that one.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 7, 2021 18:24:36 GMT
Difference is Toriyama never pretended to care about that stuff. He never was a guy who tried to outline some hard power scale and even made fun of the concepts. DBM prided itself on taking that aspect more seriously, yet we ended up with some Toriyama level jumps in logic and nonsense anyway without even a comedic punch line. I think DBM cared about consistent power scaling as much as any other fanfic. People call them out when they notice a discrepancy in a fanfic so usually the author tries to avoid them. It's not like Salagir included power scaling rules on the FAQ and most of them came from answering fan questions in the comments over ten years ago. Even Toriyama talked about wanting to keep things consistent and thought process behind transformations in interviews. He also talked about having bad memory and difficult to keep track of everything. So it's like "ok, clearly your own story isn't that important...so what IS important?". What is it about his webcomic that keeps him going? What is it, if not telling his story? Is it just a popcorn flick? Does he just like seeing Asura draw muscly men slamming into each other? Does he just like it when Asura draws Bra? Does he just keep his comic going for bragging rights? So he can say "I've had the longest fancomic out of anyone else on the internet?" What's the point of it all? From my experience, what keeps any fan project going is having fun making a tribute to series they enjoyed growing up. There's not really any reward other than fellow fans giving their feedback. I think they still care about consistency but some details they overlook or forget if they haven't been brought up in years. Gast & Palz is a parody but I still try to keep it consistent with what's been established in earlier chapters. It's not that long of a story but I know I have to go back and check some chapters because I don't remember every detail or plot point. In some cases, I notice an inconsistency after releasing a chapter so I go back and edit it. That's only possible if you have a story that not many people are reading so no one would really care or pay attention if you revised something. I try to judge DBM off its own merits, now how it compares to all of DB fan stories. Don't think you need to judge DBM by having read every DB story on Fanfiction.net for example. Besides, usually when an author wants to buff someone they just give them SSj4 not just randomly decide "okay this character gets "x" boost because I say so."
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Post by Skarr on Dec 7, 2021 19:01:59 GMT
The difference, for me, is that sometimes he's not even consistent in the same chapter. For example, keeping track of which Piccolo was which (vs Bra) was as easy as... "One has a torn shirt/missing turban/missing cape/whatever, the other doesn't" He didn't need to reread previous chapters at the time of writing that one. Did that result in an inconsistency within the story though? I don't remember to be honest. I know they identified which Piccolo was which when they regenerated from Cell's attack then U16 gave U18 some of his spare senzus. I'm not sure if there's anything in the comic that implied they got the Piccolos mixed up since it was only Salagir pointing it out on twitch. I try to judge DBM off its own merits, now how it compares to all of DB fan stories. Don't think you need to judge DBM by having read every DB story on Fanfiction.net for example. Besides, usually when an author wants to buff someone they just give them SSj4 not just randomly decide "okay this character gets "x" boost because I say so." I think we've had this discussion a few times already in other threads. I felt your comment was disingenuous because you're making it sound stricter than it is unless you're still misinterpreting it. I'm not sure what the last comment was meant to say because the story made it clear that Goku and Vegeta weren't at full power. The only stories that give them SSJ4 are GT sequels and not the long list of sequels to only DBZ. It's not a requirement to read other fanfics but you mention other fanfics as an example that don't seem accurate and makes it sound like you haven't read any others.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 7, 2021 20:01:57 GMT
The difference, for me, is that sometimes he's not even consistent in the same chapter. For example, keeping track of which Piccolo was which (vs Bra) was as easy as... "One has a torn shirt/missing turban/missing cape/whatever, the other doesn't" He didn't need to reread previous chapters at the time of writing that one. Did that result in an inconsistency within the story though? I don't remember to be honest. I know they identified which Piccolo was which when they regenerated from Cell's attack then U16 gave U18 some of his spare senzus. I'm not sure if there's anything in the comic that implied they got the Piccolos mixed up since it was only Salagir pointing it out on twitch. I try to judge DBM off its own merits, now how it compares to all of DB fan stories. Don't think you need to judge DBM by having read every DB story on Fanfiction.net for example. Besides, usually when an author wants to buff someone they just give them SSj4 not just randomly decide "okay this character gets "x" boost because I say so." I think we've had this discussion a few times already in other threads. I felt your comment was disingenuous because you're making it sound stricter than it is unless you're still misinterpreting it. I'm not sure what the last comment was meant to say because the story made it clear that Goku and Vegeta weren't at full power. The only stories that give them SSJ4 are GT sequels and not the long list of sequels to only DBZ. It's not a requirement to read other fanfics but you mention other fanfics as an example that don't seem accurate and makes it sound like you haven't read any others. Again my point has always been what other fanfics/fan stories do doesn't matter. I judge DBM off the rules Salagir himself made for the series, and how he seems to grow more inconsistent or lazy with them. I'm not the one who said that Broly is below black hole tier only to have him then survive a black hole with no explanation beyond "his power is plot lol" Salagir is the one who laid that out. Why do other fanfics matter as far as a critique of this answer goes?
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Post by fionordequester on Dec 7, 2021 20:26:07 GMT
Did that result in an inconsistency within the story though? I don't remember to be honest. It did. I made a big analysis on the Kanzenshuu forums that concluded that Bra should've only gotten one Senzu Bean after Gohan's Kamehameha. It was as follows:
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Post by Skarr on Dec 7, 2021 20:43:02 GMT
Again my point has always been what other fanfics/fan stories do doesn't matter. I judge DBM off the rules Salagir himself made for the series, and how he seems to grow more inconsistent or lazy with them. I'm not the one who said that Broly is below black hole tier only to have him then survive a black hole with no explanation beyond "his power is plot lol" Salagir is the one who laid that out. Why do other fanfics matter as far as a critique of this answer goes? It sounds like you're saying other fanfics don't matter because you mention others as an example then don't give any names when I ask what they are. You can critique DBM however you like but I feel you're holding it to a different standard. Authors make comments or answer questions all the time but it's known that ideas could change before they appear in the actual story. They mention that on twitch but it's obvious by the fact that these old comments are years old and not on the FAQ. Even professional authors aren't bound by old comments they've made and I haven't seen anyone hold it against them. Edit It did. I made a big analysis on the Kanzenshuu forums that concluded that Bra should've only gotten one Senzu Bean after Gohan's Kamehameha. That's interesting. To be honest I lost track since they had the same clothes and I wasn't sure who distributed which senzus from the beginning. I guess for future reference it would be better to have them wear different clothes if they're appearing together.
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Post by godjacob on Dec 7, 2021 20:52:30 GMT
Again my point has always been what other fanfics/fan stories do doesn't matter. I judge DBM off the rules Salagir himself made for the series, and how he seems to grow more inconsistent or lazy with them. I'm not the one who said that Broly is below black hole tier only to have him then survive a black hole with no explanation beyond "his power is plot lol" Salagir is the one who laid that out. Why do other fanfics matter as far as a critique of this answer goes? It sounds like you're saying other fanfics don't matter because you mention others as an example then don't give any names when I ask what they are. You can critique DBM however you like but I feel you're holding it to a different standard. Authors make comments or answer questions all the time but it's known that ideas could change before they appear in the actual story. They mention that on twitch but it's obvious by the fact that these old comments are years old and not on the FAQ. Even professional authors aren't bound by old comments they've made and I haven't seen anyone hold it against them. Edit It did. I made a big analysis on the Kanzenshuu forums that concluded that Bra should've only gotten one Senzu Bean after Gohan's Kamehameha. That's interesting. To be honest I lost track since they had the same clothes and I wasn't sure who distributed which senzus from the beginning. I guess for future reference it would be better to have them wear different clothes if they're appearing together. I only mentioned other stories cause you keep pressing other stories as a shield to DBM critiques. I don't pretend to know many DB fan stories (Usually just AF stuff like Ize Frieza's son). The only standard I hold DBM to is the one Salagir put in place himself, with his rules and his statements on the story he made. I don't for example complain why Vegito doesn't unfuse cause of a retroactive reveal in Super or why his SSj3 drains the user the stronger they are. It is a silly rule he made, but it is one he had been consistent with up to now. So that's fair play.
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Post by Skarr on Dec 7, 2021 21:52:01 GMT
I only mentioned other stories cause you keep pressing other stories as a shield to DBM critiques. I don't pretend to know many DB fan stories (Usually just AF stuff like Ize Frieza's son). The only standard I hold DBM to is the one Salagir put in place himself, with his rules and his statements on the story he made. I don't for example complain why Vegito doesn't unfuse cause of a retroactive reveal in Super or why his SSj3 drains the user the stronger they are. It is a silly rule he made, but it is one he had been consistent with up to now. So that's fair play. I never intended to shield it from criticism and only pointing out that some of the headcanon was common in other fanfics or shonen in general. I felt the criticism was a little exaggerated and only held against DBM. Even now you're misconstruing answer questions or their thoughts at the time with rules that are set in stone. The people making these comments have pointed out that some old ideas could've changed. It would be difficult for anyone to consider them rules since that require new fans read through thousands of old comments to find them. Maybe they should be disclaimer that comments made outside the comic are subject to change when applied to the story but that should be fairly obvious based on where they're posting them and how many of the overall fan base will read them.
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Post by fionordequester on Dec 8, 2021 6:50:19 GMT
...You know what? Looking at those pics again, I think I was wrong. U16 is on the left side in the first few panels, while U18 is on the right side. U16 Gohan got warped in with his back facing U18, and his mouth facing U16. As that's the case, it makes sense that U16 Piccolo would have given him one, and not U18. U16 Piccolo would, indeed, have two for Bra to steal. So, there's no plot hole there. But, looking through reminded me of another good question to ask. "How in the world did she know about Cell's nucleus?": How does she know Cell better than the guy that actually fought him? How does she know about something Cell never demonstrated till the actual revolt?
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