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Post by drewsaga on Sept 28, 2021 4:38:04 GMT
Goku vs Uub is done, talking about Vegeta vs Cell is getting old, might as well wait until Vegeta and Cell actually get more serious, Bra vs Gast might be interesting but that's going to be a while after.. But one fight I wanna talk about is the next one, Zen Buu vs XXI (of course we could wait then too but you never know, the fight might be brief and not actually be a fight). Probably the most terrifying matchup since Vegetto vs Broly. But how the hell is XXI suppose to even be able to beat Zen Buu?
From what we know, his powers are limited too, it depends on the Dragon Balls (which his balls are inert) and I think XXI needed another two hours to recharge he said and I doubt it's been two hours in DBM since he said that. But Zen Buu's is almost limitless, Buu can teleport (both with IT and IM), he can place pieces all over the place, he is crazy powerful, he has crazy high stamina, he regenerates on a molecular level, likely has super intelligence with the amount of people he absorbed (in the Novel he discovered Cold Fusion while Gohan is still working on that), Zen Buu already knows how XXI fights and if I were Zen Buu, I'd go for the immediate knockout before he dared do something crazy on the off chance. XXI has almost ZERO advantage over Zen Buu (maybe his magic abilities are better but Buu is no stranger to magic neither and likely is also proficient at it (in the U4 Novel, he also went to Icaron and even absorbed the Dragon Balls as well as it's creator) and MANY disadvantages.
Logically it seems like Zen Buu winning the whole tourney is too obvious and XXI is gonna have to asspull even worse than Vegeta does against Cell to actually win. Yet somehow we (even I to some extent) expect XXI to win (I think XXI winning would be more interesting anyways only because Buu's abilities are through the roof in all fields). I know Vegetto also could have quickly tried knocking XXI out but Vegetto chose to dialogue in his head, not having any idea what XXI would try doing. Maybe Buu toys around with XXI thinking he is above it all and that's how Buu loses (similar to what I expect from Vegeta against Cell where Cell would get too cocky).
Right before getting to XXI, only Gast was able to beat Zen Buu, the same guy who turned off SSJ3 Vegetto with magic! I say as impressive as XXI's magic abilities are Gast so far has him beat. And XXI might not even be physically as strong as U9 Yamcha for all we know. If XXI has a large physical disadvantage over the rest of the competitors, even Goku and Vegeta could be a problem if they just teleport and slap him upside the head and Gast and Zen Buu excel at both magic and power (though Gast excels less at power and probably more at magic).
XXI's feats so far is teleporting somebody (Vegetto) to an inverse-HTC dimension (Vegetto broke free anyways granted he lost) and turning off #18. I wonder what's more impressive, turning off #18 by summoning a deactivation switch (though I won't pretend it wasn't shocking) or Gast deactivating and crippling Vegetto and Zen Buu (the two powerhouses of DBM besides Broly who left the universe) with magic? I suppose XXI, much like Vegeta is another character whose abilities are unknown, except XXI is much more unknown than Vegeta's. But XXI is actually gonna have to prove his worth as a main villain because so far he hasn't.
XXI looks like an intimidating and terrifying villain (in his Eldritch Horror form), Zen Buu actually is terrifying and intimidating even for the best fighters/warriors/magic users/anyone in general.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 28, 2021 4:46:55 GMT
If XXI wins this I could see him using his magic to give him the sealing spell and try it out in U4 Buu. He seems to be using the best spell to quickly defeat opponents, teleporting Vegetto into another dimension where time runs much slower than real time, so by the time Vegetto broke out of it he had long missed his countdown. He had 18's controller to shut her down. The best way I think to stop Majin Buu would be to use the original spell that would seal him into his cocoon. However, that is assuming he wins his match. It could be just as easily that being the old man disguise limits his power and he loses to U4 Buu here. This defeat could be what leads him to dropping the act and unleashing his full power to take the Dragon Balls by force. In his true form we might see more impressive magic, perhaps magic that trumps U4 Buu can do.
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Post by godjacob on Sept 28, 2021 7:15:22 GMT
Zen Buu has been presented up to this point as a borderline (And in my opinion, blatant) Villain Sue, who seemingly can do whatever he wants when he wants with no concrete limitations. Even mimicking the power of the Dragon Balls but bringing back everyone killed in the Majin Rebellion Arc. Bra, Goku, Vegeta and Cell stand no chance if they are pitted against him, with Gast being a more question mark among the group given he seems to be inconsistent in how strong he is supposed to be. Basically none of them really have a way to reasonable beat Zen Buu if he is trying to win against them, and in those scenarios there'd be no drama left in this cause it'd be a forgone conclusion.
Enter XXI.
XXI has one thing going for him, of all competitors we know the least of what he can actually do. Since up to this point he's relied on the Dragon Balls he has for quick fix solutions to his foes, but Zen Buu is someone who likely won't be beaten in such a manner and likely force the real XXI to make an appearance and if anything can out magical hax Zen Buu or Gast it is an eldritch abomination. I suspect XXI will reveal a new spell to either seal Zen Buu or otherwise remove his powers with Zen Buu coming in cocky he has XXI figured out only to be given a nasty surprise.
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Post by maximusthered2431 on Sept 29, 2021 1:29:37 GMT
Iv been thinking about this alot. And I have a new theory. Sorry if this is long. Seeing as we already saw Gast can easily beat Zen Buu. And we know magic is Gasts strongest attribute. I think it's more interesting if we get Gast vs XXI as a magic face off in the Semi Finals. The question is how does XXI beat Buu. Can he do it as another one shot?? I feel like everyone thinks XXI will use Babadis sealing spell. Which I think is a good possibility. My question is...how does that work for his spread out pieces?? XXI might need to use a combination of spells this time. One similar to Gasts technique that draws all his pieces into a ball. And then the magic sealing spell. But would that even work?? Can he draw in pieces from anywhere in the universe??(we know Buu probably has a piece out floating where he left babadi. Maybe other places). Even Gast couldn't draw in all the hidden pieces(Because a hidden piece was used to do Buus nightly upgrades). And I feel like Buu is going to have lots of back ups for this fight. I'm confident XXI could seal Buu with Babadis spell...but I don't know the mechanics as how he could possibly get EVERY piece. So here's my new theory which ties into my theory about Veggito: If you read this page of Buus story: www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/fanfic_u4_en/chapter-1.html#h_readIt says Bibidi used some kind of dark magic book to help create buu. I think that magic book belonged to XXI. Which means in a way Buu might be partly a creation of XXI's magic. So he may have the power to completely destroy Zen Buu. His soul even. In a way that would neutralize all buus pieces as well. This would tie into my theory about Veggito. I think he's going to freak out when all his possibly challengers are gone. Would everyone be afraid of Veggitos rampaging if they can free Buu from his ball again to help?? I think XXI might use a spell to completely destroy Buu. Or something where he can't be brought back. Maybe made Kid buu again and he's sent back to his universe. Either that or XXI somehow have to find a way to seal ALL Buus pieces which seems like a tall order.. |
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Sept 29, 2021 19:26:35 GMT
Already been touched on by a few others and been a theory for years but I do think the old man form/puppet of his really is just a ploy to make XXI seem weaker or even like a different character from what we he truly is. Zen Buu stumbling onto his potentially OG form and his “what power” statement aside, the fact that old Kai freaked out about him when he heard the name must imply something. Wasn’t until the old Kai saw him (old man form) that he stopped being worried and said the name must just be a coincidence. The reason potentially being that he’s only disguised himself to such a degree to hide his true identity from the Kais for now. Him not revealing too much of his true power or real abilities could have more meaning behind it then just being a smart tournament battle strategy imo. Having XXI out plan and be steps ahead of everyone as he’s been left out of all the major drama that’s happened and is currently occupying the other characters mind and actions. With him even outsmarting Zen Buu who’s been shown to be the master planner of this comic so far, would be an interesting turn of events. He is after all forgotten about quite often by the main cast of the tournament, giving him plenty of time to be left to his own devices and to come up with whatever plan he really has.
If he’s truly some ancient big bad, he’s most likely dealt with and killed Kais in his universe. If the way old Kai acted when he first heard his name announced is anything to go by anyway. Also potentially why Grand Supreme Kai and Zen Buu seem to be working together. The Kai trying to figure out what XXI truly is and Buu just being himself and obsessed with gaining more strength/ knowledge to improve regardless, his curiosity and playful attitude being his downfall for once this time. Maybe he counters the old mans magic in their fight, playing with him to see what he’s capable of as he has done so with in his previous fights. Biting off more than he can chew this time. XXI is forced to reveal more of his real self/power to deal with him. This leading to him confirming who he really is to the Kais and Buu gets another opportunity to face a truly formidable foe again. It ending with Buu getting more than he bargained for and being beat or most likely resealed. And maybe even XXI dropping his act completely to set the stage for all hell to really break loose.
XXI planning ahead as he often does and trying to rely on a sealing spell at first would be in total character from what we’ve seen. Doing his best to stay in disguise because he knew there would be Kai’s present at the tournament and didn’t want to take the chance of being recognized if my theory is correct. Him or it most likely thinking that they may be aware of who his true self is in other universes, not wanting to take any chances of the Kais considering him too dangerous and attempting to do something about him proactively like having him sent back home. (Especially with how these Kais treat potential threats let alone major ones) so if the old Kai were to inform them of who he really is it could potentially ruin his plans.
Most likely as others have already said, he’ll end up using the sealing spell first to take Buu out as fast as possible, though I do hope their fight lasts longer and isn’t just a few pages. With Buu exposing more of who XXI really is because of him having to reveal more of his true self to be able to counter such an OP magical character as this Buu. Exposing his real super duper evil self and finally revealing what he is it to the Kais, with them not allowing him to make his wish if he wins. Leading to the scenario of everyone left being forced into stepping up to try and stop him if he’s finally had enough and drops the act. Starts causing shit and just taking what he wants or even causes Vegettos rampage somehow (though after the Majin rebellion arc, anymore magical brainwashing like this sounds a little too samey and obvious but maybe). Why they end up breaking a dragon ball like in Bardocks vision, to try and stop him from getting his wish at any cost.
Him also sealing or even killing Buu would take him out of the way for that Vegetto rampage we were teased if it really does still happen. Buu being one of the very few that could challenge or even match Vegetto if he snaps. Him not being around for that would allow it to all play out easier with no one to really challenge Vegetto, especially if something happens to Gast before then as well. Buus also been set up as this all powerful and unstoppable magical character for so long now. Having XXI behind the scenes out plan and beat Buu, could shake his god complex some and take him down a peg or two. Similar to what has already happened to Vegetto in a way.
Basically XXI could be a mix of Salagirs take on high power and magic. A character that can do more than just match the other heavy hitters in strength if need be. Sort of like if an older non smug and actually competent Babadi was dropped into the body of Vegetto. No real ego involved or wanting to fight for fun even though he has more than enough power to do so, but a logical ancient eldritch being that wins in the fastest way possible to advance his plans. (AKA he wouldn’t just stand and watch as his foe powers up and transforms like most super villains in this series do, he’d stop it from happening if possible). Honor being so far beneath him, it doesn’t even cross his mind to not end whatever he’s facing as soon as possible.
A combination of both power and magic extremes for a truly horrifying villain that can just magic you to death before the fight starts if possible, even if he could just outright destroy you with his power instead. Doesn’t play around like Zen Buu and isn’t looking for a challenge to test his strength and improve like Cell or even care to rule an empire with an iron fist like Freeza and his ilk. Just a timless monster that wins by the most logical way possible and stays focused on his original goals, with amazing magic and even power to back it up if need be. (Though one may wonder why he’d even need the dragon balls if he really does have accesses to other sets as we were shown when Buu walked in on him in the apartments).
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Post by drewsaga on Sept 29, 2021 22:54:53 GMT
Already been touched on by a few others and been a theory for years but I do think the old man form/puppet of his really is just a ploy to make XXI seem weaker or even like a different character from what we he truly is. Zen Buu stumbling onto his potentially OG form and his “what power” statement aside, the fact that old Kai freaked out about him when he heard the name must imply something. Wasn’t until the old Kai saw him (old man form) that he stopped being worried and said the name must just be a coincidence. The reason potentially being that he’s only disguised himself to such a degree to hide his true identity from the Kais for now. Him not revealing too much of his true power or real abilities could have more meaning behind it then just being a smart tournament battle strategy imo. Having XXI out plan and be steps ahead of everyone as he’s been left out of all the major drama that’s happened and is currently occupying the other characters mind and actions. With him even outsmarting Zen Buu who’s been shown to be the master planner of this comic so far, would be an interesting turn of events. He is after all forgotten about quite often by the main cast of the tournament, giving him plenty of time to be left to his own devices and to come up with whatever plan he really has. If he’s truly some ancient big bad, he’s most likely dealt with and killed Kais in his universe. If the way old Kai acted when he first heard his name announced is anything to go by anyway. Also potentially why Grand Supreme Kai and Zen Buu seem to be working together. The Kai trying to figure out what XXI truly is and Buu just being himself and obsessed with gaining more strength/ knowledge to improve regardless, his curiosity and playful attitude being his downfall for once this time. Maybe he counters the old mans magic in their fight, playing with him to see what he’s capable of as he has done so with in his previous fights. Biting off more than he can chew this time. XXI is forced to reveal more of his real self/power to deal with him. This leading to him confirming who he really is to the Kais and Buu gets another opportunity to face a truly formidable foe again. It ending with Buu getting more than he bargained for and being beat or most likely resealed. And maybe even XXI dropping his act completely to set the stage for all hell to really break loose. XXI planning ahead as he often does and trying to rely on a sealing spell at first would be in total character from what we’ve seen. Doing his best to stay in disguise because he knew there would be Kai’s present at the tournament and didn’t want to take the chance of being recognized if my theory is correct. Most likely thinking that they may be are aware of who his true self is in other universes, not wanting to take any chances of the Kais considering him too dangerous and attempting to do something about him proactively like having him sent back home. (Especially with how these Kais treat potential threats let alone major ones, so if the old Kai were to inform them of who he really is it could ruin his plans. So him just using the sealing spell as others said to take Buu out as fast as possible, though I do hope their fight lasts longer and isn’t just a few pages. With Buu exposing more of who XXI really is and him having to reveal more of his true self to be able to counter such an OP magical character as this Buu. His true super duper evil self finally being revealed to the Kais, and them not allowing him to make his wish if he wins. This leads to the scenario of everyone stepping up to try and stop him if he’s finally had enough and drops the act. Starts causing shit and just taking what he wants. Why they end up breaking a dragon ball like in Bardocks vision, to try and stop him from getting his wish at any cost. Him also sealing or even killing Buu would take him out of the way for that Vegetto rampage we were teased if it really does still happen. Buu being one of the very few that could challenge or even match Vegetto if he snaps. So him not being around for that would allow it to all play out easier with no one to really challenge Vegetto, especially if something happens to Gast before then as well. Buus also been set up as this all powerful and unstoppable magical character for so long now. Having XXI behind the scenes out plan and beat Buu, could shake his god complex some and take him down a peg or two. Similar to what has happened to Vegetto in a way. So him being basically a combination of Salagirs take on high power and magic. A character that can do more than just match the other heavy hitters in strength if need be, but also magic them away if possible. Sort of like if an older non smug and actually competent Babadi was dropped into the body of Vegetto. No real ego involved or wanting to fight for fun even though he has more than enough power to do so, but a logical ancient Eldridge being that wins in the fastest way possible to advance his plans. (AKA he wouldn’t just stand and watch as his foe powers up and transforms like most super villains in this series do, he’d stop it from happening if possible). Honor being so far beneath him, it doesn’t even cross his mind to not end whatever he’s facing as soon as possible. A combination of both power and magic extremes for a truly horrifying villain that can just magic you to death to end you before the fight starts if possible, even if he could just outright destroy you with his power. Doesn’t play around like Zen Buu does and isn’t looking for a challenge to test his strength like say Veggetto or to even rule an empire with an iron fist like Freeza and his ilk. Just a timless monster that wins by the most logical way possible, with amazing power and magic to back it up if need be. (Though one may wonder why he’d even need the dragon balls if he really does have accesses to other sets as we were shown when Buu walked in on him in the apartments). Sounds like a scary and possibly unbeatable combination, but does XXI even have any real physical power (enough to compete against powerhouses without resorting to magic spells)? In DBZ, Elder Kai claims that the guy he fought that sealed him (via Z-Sword) was powerful but not as powerful as Majin Buu. Only feat we got was XXI destroying a tiny Buu head but I think even Goku and Vegeta could have disintegrated that with ease given how small it is and Buu was actively trying to mask his power (and presence in general). XXI might be the weakest remaining competitor if he is as weak as he was millions of years earlier when he sealed Elder Kai, being weaker than Vegeta of U18 but casts magic spells and "fights" that way.
XXI might just be an antithetical to DBZ villains and how they operate and instead of winning through physical strength, fighting skill or even regeneration, XXI wins by casting magic spells and instead of getting arrogant and egotistical, XXI is pragmatic and tries exercising tons of caution (even against #18 he was being cautious). This might also signify that XXI, at least where he is at now, may not actually have power or he considers magic power to be power rather than chi being power.
XXI might just also be a big part of an underlying theme that has started in DBM, that strength is not everything. This started with Vegetto facing XXI after having a glorious victory against Broly of U20, where XXI just teleported him and won without using strength. It's possible that XXI views power as unnecessary as his idea of power lies within magic, and he wants more Dragon Balls because that means more magic power! Gast and Zen Buu drive the point even more that strength is not everything by showing off their abilities as well in the magic realm. It's hard to believe that Goku or Vegeta wouls any chance of winning the finals against any of the four on the right bracket.
There is also the likely connection with Buu and XXI and XXI might have been responsible for even conceiving of ideas related to magic that inspired Bibidi to create Majin Buu. So maybe XXI can beat Buu through those means, but I don't think XXI even knows Bibidi since he was likely defeated millions of years ago in most universes.
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Sept 30, 2021 14:26:25 GMT
Already been touched on by a few others and been a theory for years but I do think the old man form/puppet of his really is just a ploy to make XXI seem weaker or even like a different character from what we he truly is. Zen Buu stumbling onto his potentially OG form and his “what power” statement aside, the fact that old Kai freaked out about him when he heard the name must imply something. Wasn’t until the old Kai saw him (old man form) that he stopped being worried and said the name must just be a coincidence. The reason potentially being that he’s only disguised himself to such a degree to hide his true identity from the Kais for now. Him not revealing too much of his true power or real abilities could have more meaning behind it then just being a smart tournament battle strategy imo. Having XXI out plan and be steps ahead of everyone as he’s been left out of all the major drama that’s happened and is currently occupying the other characters mind and actions. With him even outsmarting Zen Buu who’s been shown to be the master planner of this comic so far, would be an interesting turn of events. He is after all forgotten about quite often by the main cast of the tournament, giving him plenty of time to be left to his own devices and to come up with whatever plan he really has. If he’s truly some ancient big bad, he’s most likely dealt with and killed Kais in his universe. If the way old Kai acted when he first heard his name announced is anything to go by anyway. Also potentially why Grand Supreme Kai and Zen Buu seem to be working together. The Kai trying to figure out what XXI truly is and Buu just being himself and obsessed with gaining more strength/ knowledge to improve regardless, his curiosity and playful attitude being his downfall for once this time. Maybe he counters the old mans magic in their fight, playing with him to see what he’s capable of as he has done so with in his previous fights. Biting off more than he can chew this time. XXI is forced to reveal more of his real self/power to deal with him. This leading to him confirming who he really is to the Kais and Buu gets another opportunity to face a truly formidable foe again. It ending with Buu getting more than he bargained for and being beat or most likely resealed. And maybe even XXI dropping his act completely to set the stage for all hell to really break loose. XXI planning ahead as he often does and trying to rely on a sealing spell at first would be in total character from what we’ve seen. Doing his best to stay in disguise because he knew there would be Kai’s present at the tournament and didn’t want to take the chance of being recognized if my theory is correct. Most likely thinking that they may be are aware of who his true self is in other universes, not wanting to take any chances of the Kais considering him too dangerous and attempting to do something about him proactively like having him sent back home. (Especially with how these Kais treat potential threats let alone major ones, so if the old Kai were to inform them of who he really is it could ruin his plans. So him just using the sealing spell as others said to take Buu out as fast as possible, though I do hope their fight lasts longer and isn’t just a few pages. With Buu exposing more of who XXI really is and him having to reveal more of his true self to be able to counter such an OP magical character as this Buu. His true super duper evil self finally being revealed to the Kais, and them not allowing him to make his wish if he wins. This leads to the scenario of everyone stepping up to try and stop him if he’s finally had enough and drops the act. Starts causing shit and just taking what he wants. Why they end up breaking a dragon ball like in Bardocks vision, to try and stop him from getting his wish at any cost. Him also sealing or even killing Buu would take him out of the way for that Vegetto rampage we were teased if it really does still happen. Buu being one of the very few that could challenge or even match Vegetto if he snaps. So him not being around for that would allow it to all play out easier with no one to really challenge Vegetto, especially if something happens to Gast before then as well. Buus also been set up as this all powerful and unstoppable magical character for so long now. Having XXI behind the scenes out plan and beat Buu, could shake his god complex some and take him down a peg or two. Similar to what has happened to Vegetto in a way. So him being basically a combination of Salagirs take on high power and magic. A character that can do more than just match the other heavy hitters in strength if need be, but also magic them away if possible. Sort of like if an older non smug and actually competent Babadi was dropped into the body of Vegetto. No real ego involved or wanting to fight for fun even though he has more than enough power to do so, but a logical ancient Eldridge being that wins in the fastest way possible to advance his plans. (AKA he wouldn’t just stand and watch as his foe powers up and transforms like most super villains in this series do, he’d stop it from happening if possible). Honor being so far beneath him, it doesn’t even cross his mind to not end whatever he’s facing as soon as possible. A combination of both power and magic extremes for a truly horrifying villain that can just magic you to death to end you before the fight starts if possible, even if he could just outright destroy you with his power. Doesn’t play around like Zen Buu does and isn’t looking for a challenge to test his strength like say Veggetto or to even rule an empire with an iron fist like Freeza and his ilk. Just a timless monster that wins by the most logical way possible, with amazing power and magic to back it up if need be. (Though one may wonder why he’d even need the dragon balls if he really does have accesses to other sets as we were shown when Buu walked in on him in the apartments). Sounds like a scary and possibly unbeatable combination, but does XXI even have any real physical power (enough to compete against powerhouses without resorting to magic spells)? In DBZ, Elder Kai claims that the guy he fought that sealed him (via Z-Sword) was powerful but not as powerful as Majin Buu. Only feat we got was XXI destroying a tiny Buu head but I think even Goku and Vegeta could have disintegrated that with ease given how small it is and Buu was actively trying to mask his power (and presence in general). XXI might be the weakest remaining competitor if he is as weak as he was millions of years earlier when he sealed Elder Kai, being weaker than Vegeta of U18 but casts magic spells and "fights" that way.
XXI might just be an antithetical to DBZ villains and how they operate and instead of winning through physical strength, fighting skill or even regeneration, XXI wins by casting magic spells and instead of getting arrogant and egotistical, XXI is pragmatic and tries exercising tons of caution (even against #18 he was being cautious). This might also signify that XXI, at least where he is at now, may not actually have power or he considers magic power to be power rather than chi being power.
XXI might just also be a big part of an underlying theme that has started in DBM, that strength is not everything. This started with Vegetto facing XXI after having a glorious victory against Broly of U20, where XXI just teleported him and won without using strength. It's possible that XXI views power as unnecessary as his idea of power lies within magic, and he wants more Dragon Balls because that means more magic power! Gast and Zen Buu drive the point even more that strength is not everything by showing off their abilities as well in the magic realm. It's hard to believe that Goku or Vegeta wouls any chance of winning the finals against any of the four on the right bracket.
There is also the likely connection with Buu and XXI and XXI might have been responsible for even conceiving of ideas related to magic that inspired Bibidi to create Majin Buu. So maybe XXI can beat Buu through those means, but I don't think XXI even knows Bibidi since he was likely defeated millions of years ago in most universes.
Good points, wouldn’t be a bad idea for a different sort of DB villain such as you said, could be interesting as well. The one thing that makes me think he’s also really strong too is the comment that lil Buu made when he got blasted in his apartment. I don’t think he’s one to say something like that about just anyone, not seriously anyway but hard to say for sure. We’ve gotten so little about XXI over the years with him being left on the back burner until Salagir either irons out what he wants to do with him or maybe he’s got a plan already. So he could be the real big bad or it’s possible and would be a hell of a troll move if he’s just a red herring (really hoping that’s not the case, a super eldritch monster would be pretty awesome). Now this is just making me think about how a Cthulhu like monster would work in the DB universe. |
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Post by drewsaga on Sept 30, 2021 22:25:59 GMT
Sounds like a scary and possibly unbeatable combination, but does XXI even have any real physical power (enough to compete against powerhouses without resorting to magic spells)? In DBZ, Elder Kai claims that the guy he fought that sealed him (via Z-Sword) was powerful but not as powerful as Majin Buu. Only feat we got was XXI destroying a tiny Buu head but I think even Goku and Vegeta could have disintegrated that with ease given how small it is and Buu was actively trying to mask his power (and presence in general). XXI might be the weakest remaining competitor if he is as weak as he was millions of years earlier when he sealed Elder Kai, being weaker than Vegeta of U18 but casts magic spells and "fights" that way.
XXI might just be an antithetical to DBZ villains and how they operate and instead of winning through physical strength, fighting skill or even regeneration, XXI wins by casting magic spells and instead of getting arrogant and egotistical, XXI is pragmatic and tries exercising tons of caution (even against #18 he was being cautious). This might also signify that XXI, at least where he is at now, may not actually have power or he considers magic power to be power rather than chi being power.
XXI might just also be a big part of an underlying theme that has started in DBM, that strength is not everything. This started with Vegetto facing XXI after having a glorious victory against Broly of U20, where XXI just teleported him and won without using strength. It's possible that XXI views power as unnecessary as his idea of power lies within magic, and he wants more Dragon Balls because that means more magic power! Gast and Zen Buu drive the point even more that strength is not everything by showing off their abilities as well in the magic realm. It's hard to believe that Goku or Vegeta wouls any chance of winning the finals against any of the four on the right bracket.
There is also the likely connection with Buu and XXI and XXI might have been responsible for even conceiving of ideas related to magic that inspired Bibidi to create Majin Buu. So maybe XXI can beat Buu through those means, but I don't think XXI even knows Bibidi since he was likely defeated millions of years ago in most universes.
Good points, wouldn’t be a bad idea for a different sort of DB villain such as you said, could be interesting as well. The one thing that makes me think he’s also really strong too is the comment that lil Buu made when he got blasted in his apartment. I don’t think he’s one to say something like that about just anyone, not seriously anyway but hard to say for sure. We’ve gotten so little about XXI over the years with him being left on the back burner until Salagir either irons out what he wants to do with him or maybe he’s got a plan already. So he could be the real big bad or it’s possible and would be a hell of a troll move if he’s just a red herring (really hoping that’s not the case, a super eldritch monster would be pretty awesome). Now this is just making me think about how a Cthulhu like monster would work in the DB universe. Well XXI is definitely not a weakling (likely stronger than Frieza at minimum) but I was going by the fact that in DBM, it was XXI who sealed up Old Kai and in DBZ whoever sealed up Old Kai was not as strong as Majin Buu (ignoring DBS's retcon where it turns out Beerus sealed Old Kai, unless Beerus was weaker than Majin Buu millions of years ago?). |
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Oct 1, 2021 0:40:30 GMT
Good points, wouldn’t be a bad idea for a different sort of DB villain such as you said, could be interesting as well. The one thing that makes me think he’s also really strong too is the comment that lil Buu made when he got blasted in his apartment. I don’t think he’s one to say something like that about just anyone, not seriously anyway but hard to say for sure. We’ve gotten so little about XXI over the years with him being left on the back burner until Salagir either irons out what he wants to do with him or maybe he’s got a plan already. So he could be the real big bad or it’s possible and would be a hell of a troll move if he’s just a red herring (really hoping that’s not the case, a super eldritch monster would be pretty awesome). Now this is just making me think about how a Cthulhu like monster would work in the DB universe. Well XXI is definitely not a weakling (likely stronger than Frieza at minimum) but I was going by the fact that in DBM, it was XXI who sealed up Old Kai and in DBZ whoever sealed up Old Kai was not as strong as Majin Buu (ignoring DBS's retcon where it turns out Beerus sealed Old Kai, unless Beerus was weaker than Majin Buu millions of years ago?). Shoot I do remember now that being the case in DBM with you bringing it up, I totally forgot that it was XXI that sealed him in this canon. Salagir could take some liberties and kind of ignore old Kais statement about what you said or even change it up a little as he has done with a couple other things. Could just say that he was still the OG sealer of the old Kai and put him in the Z sword but not go with the weaker then Buu statement from canon. (Or to be fair, millions of years is obviously enough time to improve drastically if he does want to keep the old Kais statement intact and true about XXI originally being weaker then Buu). |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 1, 2021 1:29:13 GMT
Have you read the first chapter of Buu's novel where it's said Bibidi compiled ancient evil texts and scrolls and made Buu improvised out of them?
I dunno, but I feel that random mention of that may mean XXI wrote those ancient evil texts and scrolls. Buu is already immune to the sealing spell, he was always afraid of it so he made a priority to find ways to counter it.
However, it's also implied Old Kaioshin knows something about XXI, and Zen Buu has already absorbed him too. So it could go either way.
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Oct 1, 2021 18:08:02 GMT
Have you read the first chapter of Buu's novel where it's said Bibidi compiled ancient evil texts and scrolls and made Buu improvised out of them? I dunno, but I feel that random mention of that may mean XXI wrote those ancient evil texts and scrolls. Buu is already immune to the sealing spell, he was always afraid of it so he made a priority to find ways to counter it. However, it's also implied Old Kaioshin knows something about XXI, and Zen Buu has already absorbed him too. So it could go either way. I do remember that actually, I haven’t checked up on that novel in awhile. Seemed like it was put on hiatus but I did enjoy their take on Buus backstory from his point of view. Could see that being the case and a cool way of having Buu tied back to XXI, making him in a way a product of his magic. Would really drive home the point that even with how OP Buu is magically, XXI is the real OG magician. And if Salagir wants to keep the old Kais comment from DBZ about who sealed him in the sword being not as terrible as Buu true, it’s been millions of years sense that has happened so plenty of time for him to improve his magic and grow ridiculously stronger if need be. As I said in my previous comment I like the old Kai knowing of the real XXI or having a history with him. He just doesn’t recognize him yet because of the disguise, XXI hiding himself so the old Kai doesn’t run and tattle to the other Kais about what he really is. As for their fight I do see Buu knowing how to counter the sealing spell by now so him countering that should start a real fight between the two unless XXI pulls out another ass pull spell that Buu can’t handle. Honestly with the way some of the fights have been playing out recently and especially with how the current Vegeta vs Cell fight is going. It might end up being another case of XXI not showing much new at all and us just getting another teaser of what he can do. These two being the supreme super wizards in this tournament, it would be such a waste to not take advantage of that and really cut loose having a ridiculously over the top but fun fight. With some real OP magic being thrown back and forth and having XXI be strong enough in his real form to actually fight with Buu if need be. Wouldn’t be surprised if we only get a few pages between the two and learn nothing new about XXI, with him ending Buu quick (really hope that’s not the case, would be super disappointing). DBM could really use another good fight between the heavy hitters right now. Still feels like we’re stuck in the earlier rounds with all this playing around that’s going on and not the actual semifinals. |
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Post by thebritwriter on Oct 1, 2021 22:42:10 GMT
I'm going to guess that XXI dosen't win, or it it's a victory which comes at the expense of XXI disguise.
My reasoning for this is because Buu or XXI are simply too powerful, yes Gast can shut down Vegetto's power, but XXI only said a word and got the saiyan gone. Unless Gast knows a spell that shuts XXI up then he dosen't stand a chance. Whoever wins will win the tournament, Gast could had been the dark horse but I haven't seen anything from him that makes him considered.
The thing is if XXI reveals more of his true self to deal with Buu then how does everyone else respond to it, mainly the kai's? XXI is in a lose-lose situation if he shows his greater power. He may win but the facade of his disguise will carry no meaning and may face disqualification given the registered particpant was his avatar (the old form) Given we know so little about XXI the story can come up with anything to make him formidable but I don't think he can keep up the act after this.
So I expect Buu to lose (or even be destroyed) and the supposed XXI crisis begins, the only problem to that idea is the dragon balls will need to be present in some capacity or bring them to him somehow.
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Post by maximusthered2431 on Oct 2, 2021 2:19:22 GMT
Have you read the first chapter of Buu's novel where it's said Bibidi compiled ancient evil texts and scrolls and made Buu improvised out of them? I dunno, but I feel that random mention of that may mean XXI wrote those ancient evil texts and scrolls. Buu is already immune to the sealing spell, he was always afraid of it so he made a priority to find ways to counter it. However, it's also implied Old Kaioshin knows something about XXI, and Zen Buu has already absorbed him too. So it could go either way. That's something I honesty hadn't considered. My other question I have been thinking about. We know magic doesn't seem to work on androids. Does Buus stolen Ultra Armor give him any magic protection?? Or did Gotenks really break it for good? I assumed Buu could reform it if needed. But it would be ironic if Gotenks destroyed the only thing Zen Buu had to survive XXI |
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Post by drewsaga on Oct 3, 2021 1:31:21 GMT
I'm going to guess that XXI dosen't win, or it it's a victory which comes at the expense of XXI disguise. My reasoning for this is because Buu or XXI are simply too powerful, yes Gast can shut down Vegetto's power, but XXI only said a word and got the saiyan gone. Unless Gast knows a spell that shuts XXI up then he dosen't stand a chance. Whoever wins will win the tournament, Gast could had been the dark horse but I haven't seen anything from him that makes him considered. The thing is if XXI reveals more of his true self to deal with Buu then how does everyone else respond to it, mainly the kai's? XXI is in a lose-lose situation if he shows his greater power. He may win but the facade of his disguise will carry no meaning and may face disqualification given the registered particpant was his avatar (the old form) Given we know so little about XXI the story can come up with anything to make him formidable but I don't think he can keep up the act after this. So I expect Buu to lose (or even be destroyed) and the supposed XXI crisis begins, the only problem to that idea is the dragon balls will need to be present in some capacity or bring them to him somehow. Gast: Abra Kadabra Alakazam! Shut your mouth or I will slap you with my dangalang! XXI: *incoherent mumbles* Gast: What have you done!? XXI: I made your balls inert...
As far as keeping up the act goes, who is gonna oppose XXI without Buu in the picture, Gast? Yamcha?
Honestly XXI teleporting Vegetto isn't all that impressive, Babidi could do the same. Turning off SSJ3 Vegetto and containing Zen Buu were far more amazing feats so if anything, I see XXI at a disadvantage and Gast probably isn't going to toy with him like Buu might. Even Zen Buu has shown more amazing feats than XXI, hence I asked how he even stands a chance. He got bailed by his pal against #18, probably because his magic don't work on Androids very well if at all. Which means Cell would also be a serious threat to XXI.
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Post by drewsaga on Oct 3, 2021 1:34:17 GMT
Have you read the first chapter of Buu's novel where it's said Bibidi compiled ancient evil texts and scrolls and made Buu improvised out of them? I dunno, but I feel that random mention of that may mean XXI wrote those ancient evil texts and scrolls. Buu is already immune to the sealing spell, he was always afraid of it so he made a priority to find ways to counter it. However, it's also implied Old Kaioshin knows something about XXI, and Zen Buu has already absorbed him too. So it could go either way. That's something I honesty hadn't considered. My other question I have been thinking about. We know magic doesn't seem to work on androids. Does Buus stolen Ultra Armor give him any magic protection?? Or did Gotenks really break it for good? I assumed Buu could reform it if needed. But it would be ironic if Gotenks destroyed the only thing Zen Buu had to survive XXI That would make Gotenks twice the jobber I thought he was.
As for the Androids I wonder if Cell will beat both Goku and Vegeta to face XXI and Cell ends up beating him and XXI makes his move and shows his true power then and there. Given how Vegeta vs Cell is turning out I get this feeling this won't come to pass.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 3, 2021 18:37:32 GMT
Have you read the first chapter of Buu's novel where it's said Bibidi compiled ancient evil texts and scrolls and made Buu improvised out of them? I dunno, but I feel that random mention of that may mean XXI wrote those ancient evil texts and scrolls. Buu is already immune to the sealing spell, he was always afraid of it so he made a priority to find ways to counter it. However, it's also implied Old Kaioshin knows something about XXI, and Zen Buu has already absorbed him too. So it could go either way. That's something I honesty hadn't considered. My other question I have been thinking about. We know magic doesn't seem to work on androids. Does Buus stolen Ultra Armor give him any magic protection?? Or did Gotenks really break it for good? I assumed Buu could reform it if needed. But it would be ironic if Gotenks destroyed the only thing Zen Buu had to survive XXI Do we know magic doesn’t work on androids or cyborgs for sure though? The only evidence we have is U9 Yamecha saying someone’s power doesn’t work on them without any context. We shouldn’t be quick to assume what Yamecha said is he played straight given how we saw Bardock assume he would beat Cold based on his vision and got it wrong because he didn’t have context. For example it is fully possible Yamecha for whatever reason wasn’t present for let’s XXI casting a spell on everyone else. U9 Yamecha is mocking or bluffing to buy time for someone else to free the others. We know magic can work on androids because Babidi was able to enslave 17 like he did everyone else. Cell was able to be possessed too. While Cell was about to hold on to his will the same as Vegeta did the fact is he received the power up for that Babidi’s other slaves did, which means Cell was vulnerable to magic as everyone else. It is possible XXI’s magic is works differently from Babidi and it might not work on androids or cyborgs, but we shouldn’t take it as a fact yet until it is actually stated in the story outright. |
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Post by drewsaga on Oct 3, 2021 18:48:36 GMT
That's something I honesty hadn't considered. My other question I have been thinking about. We know magic doesn't seem to work on androids. Does Buus stolen Ultra Armor give him any magic protection?? Or did Gotenks really break it for good? I assumed Buu could reform it if needed. But it would be ironic if Gotenks destroyed the only thing Zen Buu had to survive XXI Do we know magic doesn’t work on androids or cyborgs for sure though? The only evidence we have is U9 Yamecha saying someone’s power doesn’t work on them without any context. We shouldn’t be quick to assume what Yamecha said is he played straight given how we saw Bardock assume he would beat Cold based on his vision and got it wrong because he didn’t have context. For example it is fully possible Yamecha for whatever reason wasn’t present for let’s XXI casting a spell on everyone else. U9 Yamecha is mocking or bluffing to buy time for someone else to free the others. We know magic can work on androids because Babidi was able to enslave 17 like he did everyone else. Cell was able to be possessed too. While Cell was about to hold on to his will the same as Vegeta did the fact is he received the power up for that Babidi’s other slaves did, which means Cell was vulnerable to magic as everyone else. It is possible XXI’s magic is works differently from Babidi and it might not work on androids or cyborgs, but we shouldn’t take it as a fact yet until it is actually stated in the story outright. We are talking about XXI's magic though, not magic in general, of course magic can work on Androids, in fact, XXI's magic worked on #18 using technicalities like creating a deactivation remote and using the remote is how he beat #18. Technically everyone is vulnerable to magic to some level but it depends on the magic. That's why Babidi's magic could work and XXI's doesn't. Might also depend on spells too, maybe XXI could beat #18 with magic but he would be showing his cards too soon.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 3, 2021 19:10:05 GMT
Do we know magic doesn’t work on androids or cyborgs for sure though? The only evidence we have is U9 Yamecha saying someone’s power doesn’t work on them without any context. We shouldn’t be quick to assume what Yamecha said is he played straight given how we saw Bardock assume he would beat Cold based on his vision and got it wrong because he didn’t have context. For example it is fully possible Yamecha for whatever reason wasn’t present for let’s XXI casting a spell on everyone else. U9 Yamecha is mocking or bluffing to buy time for someone else to free the others. We know magic can work on androids because Babidi was able to enslave 17 like he did everyone else. Cell was able to be possessed too. While Cell was about to hold on to his will the same as Vegeta did the fact is he received the power up for that Babidi’s other slaves did, which means Cell was vulnerable to magic as everyone else. It is possible XXI’s magic is works differently from Babidi and it might not work on androids or cyborgs, but we shouldn’t take it as a fact yet until it is actually stated in the story outright. We are talking about XXI's magic though, not magic in general, of course magic can work on Androids, in fact, XXI's magic worked on #18 using technicalities like creating a deactivation remote and using the remote is how he beat #18. Technically everyone is vulnerable to magic to some level but it depends on the magic. That's why Babidi's magic could work and XXI's doesn't. Might also depend on spells too, maybe XXI could beat #18 with magic but he would be showing his cards too soon.
I thought they were saying magic in general didn’t effect androids/cyborgs. That is why I commented. Different brand of magic could work differently or have different vulnerabilities. It could be possible XXI’s magic doesn’t work on androids or cyborgs like Yamecha. I still think we need to be careful assuming Bardock’s vision of U9 Yamecha saying that because we do not have the full context yet. We saw in universe how Bardock made the same mistake by assuming one of his visions with no context meant he would win against Cold. I am starting to see more and more people take it as fact at this point. I do understand using the remote against 18 might be evidence of XXI magic cannot directly effect androids/cyborgs, but at the same time it fits the come up with an easy way to win. |
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Oct 3, 2021 22:05:19 GMT
Imo the more I think about it, I wouldn’t mind it if it wasn’t the case that XXI couldn’t just magic away or destroy androids/cyborgs if he acted semi serious. Him really being some sort of maximum super hidden magical beast, being an amazing combination of every power angle that’s been presented in DB. Making cyborg Yamchas comment from Bardocks random vision just another red herring or misdirection at this point because of us not knowing the full context of what was going on in that vision if it still comes to pass.
If you think about it, his puppet self just using a potentially wish gained remote to easily shut #18 down for the reason of once again not revealing himself to anyone could make sense. Even if he could have just easily blasted her or actually still used some spell that might have done the job in a similar fashion. So basically it not being an excuse that he couldn’t just do it himself with a random “my magic won’t work on her or other cyborgs” but him trying to stay hidden for whatever reason like his previous bouts. (Magic is also pretty vague at times in this series so won’t say it’s a fair comparison but let’s all not forget how well #18 did on Kamis lookout after Super Buu ditched Gotenks and got the munchies, turned her ass to chocolate just as easily as anyone else shown).
It would also fall in line and be in character with how he has been shown to perform in all of his other tournament fights so far. It being brought up many times now already that XXI could just be looking to win as fast as possible against his opponents without revealing any more of his real capabilities. So to reiterate, a remote gained via a set of his own personal dragon balls would be able to grant him such an advantage and accomplish just that. Maybe he asked the same of how to beat Vegetto fast for all we know at this point? If what we were teased with when Zen Buu walked in on him is still true anyway and that was actually a dragon he was talking with. A wish granted remote not being that much more of stretch for him to win with then say using say a dimensional teleporting spell like he did against Vegetto originally.
Both tricks effectively yielded the same result and showed jack squat of what he can actually do being such fast wins. Lil Buus surprised statement after getting blasted by XXI’s “true” form still making it harder to determine if XXI isn’t also really powerful now as well. I’m also still curious though if what was brought up about Buu still having access to the Heloits super armor is true and it possibly helping him or coming into play in his fight with XXI some how.
All this said, still wonder why XXI would even care at all to win the tournament and get a wish if that was really another wish granting dragon in his apartments that he obviously has access to. Maybe the dragons that he has in his universe are some how weaker than the dragons we’ve seen for some reason and are just attempts on his part to recreate them with his own magic. Not being 100% successful turning out as pale imitations that are limited in their wish granting compared to a real Namekian dragon. With the Namekians being possibly extinct in his universe, this is a chance to get what he really wants or needs to wish for. This all just more guess work on my part so who knows.
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Post by jbame on Oct 8, 2021 22:09:37 GMT
There are two things that can happen here:
1. Buu gets defeated instantly like Vegito and 18.
2. XXI has no real way to get rid of Buu, and we get a real fight between the two.
Whichever happens... there is no real way that Buu will win. XXI is the main villain after all, and Buu has stolen the show far too many times already.
Both outcomes are very interesting to think about. The first shows that not even someone as overpowered as Buu can escape his magic, and may give us another Buu tantrum... this time directly targetted at XXI, which may force him to get more serious than if his goal was just to win a tournament match. There is the possibility that he will seal Buu and therefore write him out of the story for a while, but personally I wouldn't want that to happen. That would be a super anticlimatic fight that ends up showing almost nothing new of XXI's character.
The second will make XXI's character more realistically defeatable, and will most importantly show us what XXI can do. It's extremely hard to kill a Buu after all, let alone this fucker who is incredibly intelligent and can do whatever he wants.
Now for some speculation about XXI himself. Let's see what we already know:
1- It's very likely that the Old Man is just a meat puppet and that his true self has not been shown yet.
2- It's implied that his magic can't affect Androids for whatever reason. Both through him asking the other figure how to beat N18 while he could've just used the Black Dimension thing again, and Yamcha's vision of "being the strongest in all the universes", which would only make sense if he were fighting against someone who cannot attack him.
3- Zen Buu was shocked by the power he witnessed in that room. It's unknown if he was attacked by XXI or the other figure in that room.
4- The novel seems to imply that Zen Buu and Grand kai are working together to find out more about him.
Number 2 and 4 seemingly contradict one another. If he has enough power to shock Zen Buu with just a ki blast... then why is he concerned about someone as relatively weak as Number 18? Is he intentionally trying not to show his power? In that case, assuming that Bardocks' vision is about XXI going in a rampage and using his magic to stop everyone but Yamcha, why doesn't he just use this supposed huge power against him?
Maybe XXI straight up CAN'T use his seemingly insane power normally and thus has to rely on cheap tricks to win the tournament. In that case his fight against Buu will just be him trying to use every trick in the book (heh) to try and get Buu disqualified.
1 is also interesting to think about. Why would he feel the need to use a meat puppet if the only person in the entire tournament who knows who he is wasn't present in it to begin with? Is this puppet holding back his power? Does he really need to hold back his power?
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