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Post by Axalon on Jun 14, 2017 0:15:07 GMT
The Super Saiyan forms probably are indeed multipliers if we go down to brass tacks. The Kaioken uses multipliers, the Oozaru transformation is a multiplier, Namekian fusion is a multiplier, the fusion dance is a multiplier, etc, etc. Multipliers is just how Toriyama does major power scaling. The rate of multiplication is often inconsistent, but it's a multiplier nonetheless. I see no reason why he'd suddenly change it in this one instance. I don't like that you can just boil down the "legendary" Super Saiyan state to a mere multiplier, but then again I don't think there ever should've been a Super Saiyan Bargain Sale or Super Saiyan Back Tingles either. It is what it is.
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Post by Ashanark on Jun 14, 2017 1:20:52 GMT
Goku: PL of 3 million. Baby Goten: PL of, say, 10. Turtle: PL of .01. If Goku transforms and suddenly gets 50 times stronger, he can take Frieza. If Baby Goten transforms, he can still be crushed by beginning-of-Z Goku. If Turtle transforms, he actually gets weaker.
What? 0,01 x 50 = 0,50 How did he get weaker? He got 50 times stronger!
Other than that, I agree. I never really liked the Super Saiyan transformations to be multipliers. And if they are, the gap between them is definitely higher than a mere 2x and 4x multiplication. To simplify, if Toriyama tells me "YES, THEY ARE MULTIPLIERS, but how do you feel the multipliers are?" I'd say it's around x50 for Super Saiyan, x10 or x20 for Super Saiyan 2 and x10 or x8 for Super Saiyan 3. If the SSj2 transformation is only twice as strong as a Super Saiyan, the two Ascended Saiyans transformations (and power boosts) simply cannot exist.
That being said, I don't adhere strictly to a multiplier strictly. I'm talking merely about the power boost and the power gaps between transformations. Darn it Andres, I'm an English major, not math! (I got mixed up and used my logic for why Potara theoretically can't be straight multiplication. 0.5 person x 0.5 person = 0.25 person, which is weaker.)
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Post by fooshin on Jun 14, 2017 4:18:04 GMT
Super Saiyan being a multiplier of what? Base? Does this mean when they were figuring out the secrets of the super saiyan form their base was increasing to match? Does this mean when Goku hit the wall in the Rosat that his base likewise hit a wall and couldn't increase no matter how hard he pushed himself? Or is SSJ completely separate from base?
I admit I'm not certain on any of this but the ssj is completely separate form base idea seems to fit well for me at least:
When Goku first went ssj against Freeza he had very inefficient control of the form and therefore he was somewhere just above Freeza but I believe it was a fluctuating pl as he was struggling to control it. It just happened to be somewhere around 50x his base at that time but that was about it.
Later when he got back to earth he simply had more practice and control of the form and therefore was more efficient at it. Kinda like he was 10% efficient with freeza but now he was 30%. While his base may have gotten stronger, I think his ssj increase was more about learning to control the form as was totally separate from his base strength
When he left the Rosat he had mastered the form and was now 100% efficient. There was nothing he could do to further increase his strength in that form as it was fully mastered. I don't think it was ever shown that he was stronger as a ssj later and most people just assume that he was cause they get tripped up by the whole multiplier mentality.
So what was going with Assj and Ussj? Well, Ussj was obviously a "perverted" state of ssj where speed was sacrificed in order to benefit strength so that's kind of irrelevant. Assj didn't seem to have any flaws even though the buffed look suggested it was also a "perverted" form. I'm guessing this was just a more efficient use of ssj that was around 50 to 60% and I don't have a great explanation for the buffing seeing as how a master ssj just looks normal.
Ssj2 wasn't shown much in so far as increased levels the way ssj was so I'm not sure if those who mastered ssj1 already went into ssj2 fully mastered or if there was room to grow with the efficiencies there as well.
As many have talked about already, I agree that ssj3 is just a "perverted" state of ssj2 wherein energy is sacrificed to increase strength and speed similar to ussj.
Since I don't think of them as multipliers, I don't see how a ssj can ever surpass a ssj2. That fits in well with the tier line of thinking. Also that whole 50x 4x 2x thing doesn't apply at all since that's off of base.
I think it's more like ssj2 is 2 to 4x mastered ssj. And ssj3 is 1.5 to 2x ssj2.
If anyone can show a flaw in this thinking from the manga I'd love to see it.
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Post by fooshin on Jun 14, 2017 17:40:31 GMT
One other thing that's even more just my opinion but I pretty strongly would go with ssj2 being 2x mastered ssj1 and ssj3 being 1.5x ssj2. That solves a lot of problems with situations later in the series like why vegeta could survive his buu fights. I know the multiplier theory doesn't work well with those numbers because of the idea of the continuing growing base causing tiers to mix but I just view that as further proof multipliers are wrong instead of trying to fix them by making them huge multipliers like most people do. Also in general I think people go way too crazy when it comes to the power gaps and the gigantic numbers. Yeah, freeza was a big leap but I think after that they were more modest increases. Just take in to account the pl gaps with the zarbon fights. It really doesnt take much of a pl difference to dominate in a fight.
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Post by Xeno Black on Jun 19, 2017 2:35:01 GMT
I know power levels are bullshit, but here is my number list I have always carried with me.
Namek Saga (Incomplete) Vegeta (Pre-Zarbon Zenkai) - 24,000.
Vegeta (Post-Zarbon Zenkai) - 35,000.
Vegeta (Post-Recoome Zenjai) - 250,000 (suppressed).
Vegeta - 500,000 (full power).
Vegeta (Post-Krillin Zenkai) - 2,400,000.
Frieza (First Form) - 220,000 (suppressed).
Frieza (First Form) - 530,000 (full power).
Frieza (Second Form) - 1,060,000.
Frieza (Third Form) - 1,500,000 (suppressed).
Frieza (Third Form) - 2,120,000 (full power).
Frieza (True Form) - 3,000,000 (1%).
Frieza (True Form) - 60,000,000 (50%).
Frieza (True Form) - 120,000,000 (100%).
I will explain how I got these numbers if asked. More is on the way to torture you poor souls with my flawed mathematical skills. XD
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Post by Griffith on Jun 19, 2017 2:57:04 GMT
I know power levels are bullshit, but here is my number list I have always carried with me. Namek Saga (Incomplete)
Vegeta (Pre-Zarbon Zenkai) - 24,000. Vegeta (Post-Zarbon Zenkai) - 35,000. Vegeta (Post-Recoome Zenjai) - 250,000 (suppressed). Vegeta - 500,000 (full power). Vegeta (Post-Krillin Zenkai) - 2,400,000. Frieza (First Form) - 220,000 (suppressed). Frieza (First Form) - 530,000 (full power). Frieza (Second Form) - 1,060,000. Frieza (Third Form) - 1,500,000 (suppressed). Frieza (Third Form) - 2,120,000 (full power). Frieza (True Form) - 3,000,000 (1%). Frieza (True Form) - 60,000,000 (50%). Frieza (True Form) - 120,000,000 (100%). I will explain how I got these numbers if asked. More is on the way to torture you poor souls with my flawed mathematical skills. XD Those are your numbers!?! Pah, look at mine. Namek: Gohan: 510K (Base) 1.2M (Enraged) Kuririn: 505K (Base) Vegeta: 520K (Base) 3M (Zenkai'd) Piccolo: 1.7M Goku: 7M (Base) 70M (KKX10) 140M (KKX20) 360M (SSJ) Freeza: 530K (First) 1.06M (Second) 1.5M (Full Power Second) 2M (Third) 7M (Finial SUPPRESSED) 175 (half of his full power.) 350M (Full Power)
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Post by lordofbeefdip on Jul 9, 2017 15:09:34 GMT
Here it is, a place to go crazy with your power level lists and debate who's stronger than who. Modifiers, numbers, whatever you want! You get bonus points if you can use the manga to back up your argument. Common topics of discussion: 1. Arrange Buu's forms in order of power. While you're at it, is Super Buu stronger, or Kid Buu? (I say Super Buu.) 2. Is Dabura as strong as regular Perfect Cell, or Super Perfect Cell? Was Gohan SS1 or SS2 fighting him? (I say normal Perfect Cell, and SS1) 3. Is SS3 Goku stronger than Mystic Gohan? (I say Mystic Gohan's stronger.) 4. Which movie villain would beat who in a fight? 5. The Daizenshuu's power levels. The topic I want to start off with is the Daizenshuu's numbers for Super Saiyan transformations. It's not long, but I'll spoiler it anyway. The Daizenshuu guides were made after Dragon Ball finished, and are a bit like an encyclopedia for the series. Though not made by Akira Toriyama, they did have his approval. Therefore, many people take what they find in the Daizenshuu as Dragon Ball law. However, there are many places where I think what the Daizenshuu says and what we actually see happen doesn't match up. Case in point: the Super Saiyan modifiers.
According to the Daizenshuu, SS1 is a 50x multiplier over base. SS2 is double a Super Saiyan. SS3 is four times a SS2.
I really do not like these numbers. The only one that seems reasonable to me is Super Saiyan 1 being a 50x increase. Both SS2 and SS3 feel entirely wrong, and I'll tell you why.
DISCLAIMER: I don't like using numbers to determine power levels. It gets ridiculous. I instead prefer relative power levels--comparing somebody to somebody else.
To see how strong Super Saiyan 2 is, let's look at the Cell Saga: --Original SS Goku < Android 18 < Android 16 << Semi-Perfect Cell << Ascended Vegeta << Perfect Cell << Perfect Cell at max << SS2 Gohan. There's no way that's only a double increase in power from beginning to end.
Now let's look at Buu saga: --SS2 Teen Gohan < SS2 Goku/Vegeta << Kid Buu/SS3 Goku.
Gohan, as a SS2, could 1-shot a Cell Junior. Each Cell Jr. was as strong as Perfect Cell was when he fought Goku. So Goku at max ~ Perfect Cell = Cell Junior. And Gohan could 1-hit kill them. Goku, as a SS3, was about equal to Kid Buu. Kid Buu could beat the everliving crud out of SS2 Vegeta, but couldn't one-shot him. Despite Buu's efforts, Vegeta survived.
The point I'm trying to make here is that SS3 can't be a larger modifier than SS2, because the gap between original SS2 and SS3 is nowhere near as big as the gap between original SS1 and SS2. To me, the Law of Diminishing Returns hits SS3 very hard.
So: SS1 is a larger modifier than SS2, which is a larger modifier than SS3. SS3 can be a 4x modifier, but only if SS2 is a comparatively larger jump, like X10 or something.
I am going to say that I largely only skimmed this topic. I might catch up and of course debate specific points, but for now I just want to respond to the opening post. 1. Buuhan>>Buutenks>Buff Buu>Buucolo>Super Buu>>Kid Buu>Fat Buu>>Evil Buu>>Mr. Buu Going by this, I consider Super Buu considerably stronger than Kid. I'm willing to discuss too why I think the other forms are the way they are, but for now I am opting to put my focus on this. Upon freeing the fat Buu Goku explicitly warned Vegeta that while he was much closer to his previous power they would be killed if they went out and fought him without fusion, implying strongly a big power gap. Size was not considered until after Goku tried blasting out and Buu appeared in his body and pointed out to them they were smaller than fleas. They also expressed no shock upon returning to normal size later, implying they expected that all along. We also have them shitting bricks at Buff Buu's power, yet being far less concerned with Kid. Goku goes so far as to say they don't need to fuse, because it wouldn't be fair now that Buu is no longer fused either. Counter point is that Vegeta refers to Goku as #1, and the guide mentions that he had defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe. The first seems to have been Vegeta mainly referring to himself and Goku, and the guide still isn't the manga. So that should be considered too, as well as the possibility that AT changed his mind and decided Kid Buu was the strongest at the end. The Buu Saga was a power scaling mess, and definitely was a prelude to the fustercluck that would come later. 2. I put Dabura at minimum at Roided up 100% Perfect Cell. Or just as likely around Super Perfect Cell. Goku sensed Cell at his best, including after Cell IT'd back. So it makes no sense to be referring to Cell at anything less than his peak. Everyone else sensed Cell too and didn't try to correct him. Then after seeing Dabura fight Goku went on to say he was tougher than he thought. Could have meant his magic, but either way we are looking at a buff Cell level person with magic in Dabura, if not outright SPC level. To be fair, I do think SSj2 Gohan in the Cell Saga was considerately stronger than SPC. For one, Gohan despite being damaged had the ki to wipe away every trace of SPC. The plot had to intervene and weaken Gohan significantly in order to make major tension. And two, Cell was relegated to being compared to someone Goku Vegeta considered a chump, Dabura. Whereas Gohan was used as the barometer for SSj2 Buu arc Goku and SSj2 Majin Vegeta. Vegeta only admitted Goku surpassed his son after Goku powered up fully in SSj2, and Piccolo wasn't 100% sure Majin Vegeta was really much stronger than Cell Games SSj2 Gohan. Gohan was drawn as a SSj, but for all intents and purposes was outputting low tier SSj2 power. Kaioshin mentioned to Kibito that Gohan displayed much greater power than his SSj2 at the Budokai, leaving no room for him to really be out putting anything less than scrub SSj2 power. And putting that aside, Perfect Cell suppressed was on par with Cell games SSj Gohan. After Gohan went SSj2 and Cell had a massive powerup, there was a panic that maybe Gohan wasn't strong enough. Granted it was unfounded and Gohan roflStomped, but it shows that he was on another level from a Cell Games era SSj. If anything Gohan being weaker would be obliterated with greater ease in SSj1. Conversely, we have a rusty SSj2 power Gohan fighting a guy roughly on par with SPC and with magic. So while Gohan well could have the power edge, his lack of practice and Dabura's magic evened things out. 3. Mystic Gohan imo would godstomp. SSj3 Goku was about even with Kid Buu, and even if you assume that Super Buu was equal or somewhat weaker, Gohan's effortless manhandling of Super Buu means that Goku would get his ass kicked. And if we pull in anime filler, when Buutenks was warming up he fought about evenly with Gohan. Yet he treated SSj3 Goku like a joke, ragdolling him in every clash. We also have Goku instantly powering down and ducking out of a fight with Buucolo, leaving it to Gohan despite the later being slightly damaged from his Buutenks thrashing. 4. Not too sure on movie villains. 5. Most are in the ballpark, but there are a few I take issue with. Namely Zarbon and Dodoria being 23k and 22k respectively vs Vegeta's 24k.
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Post by lordofbeefdip on Jul 12, 2017 16:49:38 GMT
Meh, I' bored so I figure I'll throw in some of my power level estimates.
Namek Saga:
Cui/Kiwi: 18,0000
Dodoria: 20,000
Zarbon: 22,000
Vegeta: 24,000
Zarbon (transformed): 31,000
Vegeta (Post Zenkai): 33,000
Gohan (vs Guldo): 15,000 Krillin (vs Guldo) : 14,000 Guldo: 13,500
Recoome: 41,000 Burter: 41,200 Jeice: 41,200
Goku (sandbagging vs. Jeice&Burter) : 55,000-60,000 Goku: 90,000 Captain Ginyu: 120,000 Goku(Kaioken):180,000
Ginyu (In Goku's body) 23,000 Gohan&Krillin vs. Ginyu-Goku: Around 21,000 Vegeta (2nd Zenkai vs. Jeice): 60,000
Nail: 42,000
Gohan (Vs 1st form Frieza) : 85,000 Krillin (vs. 1st form Frieza) 50,000 Vegeta (Magical nap) 475,000 1st form Frieza: 530,000
2nd Form Frieza (Intially): 725,000 Gohan (Rage boost): 730,000 2nd Form Frieza (Powered up vs. Piccolo) : 925,000 Piccolo (Weights): 990,000 2nd Form Frieza (Full power) : 1,060,000
Piccolo (Full power): 1,200,000
3rd Form Friza: 1,590,000
Gohan (Rage boost vs. 3rd Form Frieza): 1,500,000
4th Form Frieza (Initial power) 2,120,000
Vegeta (Post Krillin induced Zenkai): 2,350,000
Frieza (Vs. Vegeta) 3,000,000
Goku (Post zenkai base) : 3,000,000
Goku (Fatigued x20 Kamehameha):60,000,000
Frieza (50%): 60,000,000 Frieza (100%): 120,000,000 SSj Goku: 150,000,000
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Post by Eldagusto on Jul 16, 2017 15:06:40 GMT
Honestly I'm going to say I like to think Veggy was weaker then Pickles before he Died. He was just given temporary plot importance, and he was fully concentrating keeping up with Frieza's movements while Pickles and Gohan were taken by surprise. I'm biased but I think Pickles could take him at that point and even after being revived from death.
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Post by lordofbeefdip on Jul 16, 2017 17:43:32 GMT
Honestly I'm going to say I like to think Veggy was weaker then Pickles before he Died. He was just given temporary plot importance, and he was fully concentrating keeping up with Frieza's movements while Pickles and Gohan were taken by surprise. I'm biased but I think Pickles could take him at that point and even after being revived from death. You mean post zenkai Vegeta? Nothing whatsoever implies that Piccolo was even close. Form 3 Frieza murked Piccolo hard, yet Vegeta thought he could contend with a transformation beyond that. Piccolo nor Gohan were 'off guard' against Frieza after Dende got obliterated. Frieza was just so far beyond them they literally could not perceive his movements. Not to mention that you could use the same argument with equal validity that Vegeta was initially off guard, just that he lucked out and wasn't the 1st target, and was powerful enough to follow Frieza's movements the second Gohan got targeted, and knock him out of the way before the beam hit. Which was an incredible display of speed. Vegeta powers up and seemingly impresses everyone, and only Piccolo realizes Vegeta is screwed. That said, Vegeta had an idea how strong Frieza would be in his 4th form, and initially could track his movements and almost keep pace at first. Which would mean that while Vegeta clealy underestimated Frieza, upon first transforming there was little disparity in their respective powers. And again, 4th Form Frieza speed blitzed everyone else, to the point they could not come close to tracking him. Piccolo couldn't even keep up with 3rd Form Frieza even. The entire narrative explicitly shows that Vegeta was an order of magnitude beyond Piccolo.
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Post by Xeno Black on Jul 18, 2017 4:47:23 GMT
More bs power levels from the Namek Saga Appule - Less than 3,000
Cui - 18,000
Dodoria - 22,000
Zarbon (Base State) - 23,000
Zarbon (Monster Form) - 30,000
Recoome - 40,000
Captain Ginyu - 120,000
Nail - 42,000
Goku (Immensely Restrained) - 5,000
Goku (Somewhat Serious) - 60,000
Goku - 90,000
Goku (Kaioken X 2) - 180,000
Goku (Kaioken X 5) - 450,000
Goku (Kaioken X 10) [Potential Maximum] - 900,000
Goku (Post-Zenkai) - 3,000,000
Goku (Post-Zenkai, Kaioken X 20) - 60,000,000
Goku (Super Saiyan) - 150,000,000 Future Trunks Saga
Future Trunks - 7,000,000
Future Trunks (Super Saiyan) -350,000,000
Mecha Frieza (True Form - 50%) - Easily lower than 350,000,000
Goku - 8,000,000
Goku (Super Saiyan) - 400,000,000 Cooler's Revenge Saga
Goku - 10,000,000
Goku (Super Saiyan) - 500,000,000
Cooler (True Form - Lowest Percentages) - Lower than 10,000,000
Cooler (First Augmentation Form) - 470,000,000
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Post by Eldagusto on Jul 18, 2017 5:01:07 GMT
Honestly I'm going to say I like to think Veggy was weaker then Pickles before he Died. He was just given temporary plot importance, and he was fully concentrating keeping up with Frieza's movements while Pickles and Gohan were taken by surprise. I'm biased but I think Pickles could take him at that point and even after being revived from death. You mean post zenkai Vegeta? Nothing whatsoever implies that Piccolo was even close. Form 3 Frieza murked Piccolo hard, yet Vegeta thought he could contend with a transformation beyond that. Piccolo nor Gohan were 'off guard' against Frieza after Dende got obliterated. Frieza was just so far beyond them they literally could not perceive his movements. Not to mention that you could use the same argument with equal validity that Vegeta was initially off guard, just that he lucked out and wasn't the 1st target, and was powerful enough to follow Frieza's movements the second Gohan got targeted, and knock him out of the way before the beam hit. Which was an incredible display of speed. Vegeta powers up and seemingly impresses everyone, and only Piccolo realizes Vegeta is screwed. That said, Vegeta had an idea how strong Frieza would be in his 4th form, and initially could track his movements and almost keep pace at first. Which would mean that while Vegeta clealy underestimated Frieza, upon first transforming there was little disparity in their respective powers. And again, 4th Form Frieza speed blitzed everyone else, to the point they could not come close to tracking him. Piccolo couldn't even keep up with 3rd Form Frieza even. The entire narrative explicitly shows that Vegeta was an order of magnitude beyond Piccolo. Honestly the way the Namek scenes played out even Pickles and Krillin were stronger after each fight. And veggy was only doing well for plot reasons, he couldn't harm or touch Frieza.
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Post by lordofbeefdip on Jul 18, 2017 10:25:05 GMT
You mean post zenkai Vegeta? Nothing whatsoever implies that Piccolo was even close. Form 3 Frieza murked Piccolo hard, yet Vegeta thought he could contend with a transformation beyond that. Piccolo nor Gohan were 'off guard' against Frieza after Dende got obliterated. Frieza was just so far beyond them they literally could not perceive his movements. Not to mention that you could use the same argument with equal validity that Vegeta was initially off guard, just that he lucked out and wasn't the 1st target, and was powerful enough to follow Frieza's movements the second Gohan got targeted, and knock him out of the way before the beam hit. Which was an incredible display of speed. Vegeta powers up and seemingly impresses everyone, and only Piccolo realizes Vegeta is screwed. That said, Vegeta had an idea how strong Frieza would be in his 4th form, and initially could track his movements and almost keep pace at first. Which would mean that while Vegeta clealy underestimated Frieza, upon first transforming there was little disparity in their respective powers. And again, 4th Form Frieza speed blitzed everyone else, to the point they could not come close to tracking him. Piccolo couldn't even keep up with 3rd Form Frieza even. The entire narrative explicitly shows that Vegeta was an order of magnitude beyond Piccolo. Honestly the way the Namek scenes played out even Pickles and Krillin were stronger after each fight. And veggy was only doing well for plot reasons, he couldn't harm or touch Frieza. Krillin and Gohan's powers were stated to have been rising gradually, and I believe a valid theory is the Guru potential unlock. Nothing was stated or implied about Piccolo. All we know was that he had a near even fight with 2nd form Frieza,ditched his weighted clothes, and got absolutely curbstomped by Frieza's 3rd form. Nothing was stated or implied that he got a mysterious boost , and he didn't magically gain the power to fight stronger people than before. With no statement or feats to say or imply he got stronger, we have to default to his power being the exact same as when he fought 2nd and 3rd Form Frieza. It isn't like Gohan and Krillin where they were stated and shown to be getting stronger, and in Gohan's case capable of getting zenkais to explain away power spikes. I don't know how much I can get away with posting scans of the manga, but it is a fact that not only could Piccolo not keep track of 4th Form Frieza at all, that he wanted no part of getting inbetween Vegeta and Frieza. He didn't even try to help, which he would have done if he thought he could make difference. Frieza seemed to be using slightly more effort to avoid Vegeta as he tried attacking, as opposed to Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin, where he casually dodged in a lackadaisical manner. So while he dominated Vegeta and dodged every hit, even looking ay Frieza's expressions could tell you he was still putting in more effort and taking him more seriously. Further, Vegeta pre-zenkai was scared of form 2 Frieza. He also would have sensed Form 3 and knew Form 4 was even stronger. So while he is arrogant, Vegeta would not have acted so confident had his power even been as comparatively low as Piccolo's. Yet he thought he could take on a stronger form than the one who murked Piccolo, which is only something he would have done if his power were at least riviling Frieza's initial 4th form's. Vegeta could sense ki, and would have at least been stronger than 3rd form Frieza, otherwise his entire demeanor would have been very different.
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Post by Ashanark on Jul 22, 2017 22:56:05 GMT
Are Super Saiyan transformations multipliers or not?Or: Why I Don't Like the Daizenshuu, part #5567(Disclaimer 1: Power levels are bullcrap.) (Disclaimer 2: This is only 350 words long. It's really not a long read.)So, was reading through the Buu saga to see how Majinization works. I come across Goku transforming against Yakon, and Babidi saying that he has a PL of 3,000 kili, which means Yakon has no chance, since he has a PL of 800 kili. All well and good, most of us know about this. But then I come across this: When I first read this page, I stopped in my tracks. Gohan says, "Dad, I'll fight, too! Then you won't have to be a Super Saiyan!"
Going by the Daizenshuu, Goku's base would be 50x less than his Super Saiyan strength, if not more (since his Super Saiyan apparently got hugely stronger after his time in the HTC/RoSaT.) This would mean Goku's base strength would be around 60 kili...making Yakon 13x stronger than he was. If SS Goku was able to achieve complete physical dominance over Yakon being not even four times stronger than Yakon was, then surely Yakon would completely dominate Goku being 13x stronger than his base. In that case, base Goku should most assuredly not be able to dodge Yakon's attacks and kick him in the face hard enough to damage. The point is, Goku's base is not getting dominated by Yakon, and Gohan feels the two of them-- in base--should be able to beat Yakon. This leads to two conclusions: 1. Goku is holding back as a Super Saiyan to a ridiculous degree--which seems unlikely, since it eventually proves not enough and he goes SS2 to finish the job--and the Daizenshuu's numbers stand; Super Saiyan is a multiplier. 2. Goku's base is somewhere around 800 kili, meaning that Super Saiyan is either a 4.75 modifier OR not a multiplier at all, but an addition of strength. In my opinion, Toriyama never thought in multipliers, and his "approval" of the Daizenshuu, and by extension its multiplier numbers, was a meaningless rubber-stamping. This scene contradicts the Daizenshuu very strongly unless we argue Goku was holding back, which seems tenuous. All Super Saiyan states add to the user's power, not multiply it. The x50/x2/x4 Daizenshuu numbers are bogus.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 29, 2017 12:25:36 GMT
In my opinion, Toriyama never thought in multipliers, and his "approval" of the Daizenshuu, and by extension its multiplier numbers, was a meaningless rubber-stamping. This scene contradicts the Daizenshuu very strongly unless we argue Goku was holding back, which seems tenuous. All Super Saiyan states add to the user's power, not multiply it. The x50/x2/x4 Daizenshuu numbers are bogus. I don't think it's disputable at all that Toriyama thought in multipliers, because the man absolutely did. - Kaioken is nothing but multipliers. - The Oozaru transformation was explicitly a 10x multiplier. - Nail said Piccolo's power would increase "many fold", and the fact that he was able to stand toe-to-toe with 2nd Form Frieza's PL of 1 Million is proof enough that it wasn't simply addition. - If Goku with a Kaioken x20 (Ergo, Goku multiplying his strength by 20) was enough to hurt Frieza but not dominate him, then it stands to reason that SS1 Goku who dominated Frieza with ease is simply a higher multiplier. - Etc, etc. That said, I agree that there's a disconnect here between the PLs in the Buu Saga. But given that this is the Buu Saga, I chalk this up to the sheer insanity of the whole thing. For instance, according to V-Jump, 1 Kili = 50,000 BP (aka, what the scouters use to measure). Whether or not you consider V-Jump credible or not is your own thing, but here's what it says: So with Yakon at 800 Kili he's at a PL of 40,000,000. SS1 Goku's 3000 Kili measurement puts him at 150,000,000, making him 3,000,000 in base form. By comparison, Daizenshuu 7 lists Final Form 100% Frieza as 120,000,000. So this would imply that SS1 Goku is "only" 30 million BP higher than Frieza as of the Buu Saga. - With that in mind, we can come to a few conclusions: 1. Gohan has no idea what he's talking about. Given that he's slacked off for all these years, this has some credence. 2. Goku and Gohan could possibly have indeed taken on Yakon without transforming, though the fight would've been difficult and likely contributed to Buu waking up faster. 3. Goku's holding back as a SS1. This is also possible. We know that Goku just being in the state doesn't mean he's exerting his full power, as seen in the Cell Games when he actually powered up to 100%, and after leaving the HTC when he went to 50%. Further supporting this is that Goku only transformed to light up the area, not to fight with Yakon. 4. V-Jump is wrong about it's Kili to BP correlation. 5. Toriyama has no idea what he's doing sometimes. Very likely. The man thought SS3 was SS2 when he was designing it, and quite frequently writes by the seat of his pants. 6. The Daizenshuu's 50x multiplier is outdated. The 50x actually fits with the Frieza Saga, and actually works here with Yakon if we assume that V-Jump's numbers are correct, and that Goku didn't improve at all since Frieza and wasn't holding back as a SS1. The problem is that he did improve. A lot. Also refer back to #5. 7. Toriyama forgot what he was doing, and referred to the Daizenshuu to help him out, then used the 50x number as a base. Refer to #5. 8. Power levels are bullshit. Power scaling is bullshit. Toriyama powers up people randomly with BS plot devices all the time. Also refer back to #5. I personally subscribe to 3-8.
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Post by Ashanark on Jul 29, 2017 20:26:36 GMT
I apologize in advance, my friend, this ended up a lot longer than I intended. I don't think it's disputable at all that Toriyama thought in multipliers, because the man absolutely did. - Kaioken is nothing but multipliers. - The Oozaru transformation was explicitly a 10x multiplier. - Nail said Piccolo's power would increase "many fold", and the fact that he was able to stand toe-to-toe with 2nd Form Frieza's PL of 1 Million is proof enough that it wasn't simply addition. - If Goku with a Kaioken x20 (Ergo, Goku multiplying his strength by 20) was enough to hurt Frieza but not dominate him, then it stands to reason that SS1 Goku who dominated Frieza with ease is simply a higher multiplier. - Etc, etc. I think you misunderstood me. In an earlier post in this very same thread, I said: I said I don't think Super Saiyan is a multiplier. I never said Kaioken wasn't. From the very beginning, that is literally what the Kaioken did. If it's got x3, x4, x10, x20 in its name, then it seems to be a power multiplier. However, Kaioken was also portrayed as increasingly hard to maintain, with progressively greater costs on the body; Super Saiyan never had such limits. I don't think Super Saiyan is just a glorified Kaioken. Toriyama also thought in hard PL numbers once upon a time, but dropped those by the time of 2nd form Frieza. Similarly, while he did multipliers for the Kaioken, he abandoned the Kaioken entirely later on. And were transformations ever really multipliers to begin with? -- A child Gohan, with a PL likely not even in the hundreds, nevertheless was so strong as an Oozaru that Piccolo thought it easier to blow up the moon than, say, shoot his tail off, or just knock him out. (And at that point, if Piccolo had no problem slapping Gohan around as a kid, he'd probably have no problem slapping around Gohan as an Oozaru if he could.) -- Again, Gohan as a semi-trained child, with a PL not over 2,000 when he wasn't angry, was nevertheless so strong that Vegeta could only beat him chopping his tail off. In both cases, I don't see "Oozaru makes you 10x stronger," since Gohan would not be a threat in either situation if that was the case. I see "Oozaru makes you really freaking strong." That seems like an addition, not a multiplier. I'm not attaching a number to it, but I do think Oozaru moves you up a few tiers or so. Another problem with multipliers is that they are exponential: A kid with a PL of 50, going Super Saiyan, only gets stronger by 2500. Namek saga Goku, going Super Saiyan, gets stronger by 147 million. (Using Daizenshuu numbers.) For one thing, this implies the gap between base, Super Saiyan, and higher forms should be widening as the series goes on, though I'd argue it's getting smaller--that Diminishing Returns are hitting the Saiyans pretty hard. This is why I see Super Saiyan not as a 50x multiplier, but an addition of a couple million or so. (Or billion. Whatever, I think in tiers anyway.) And, to me, one of the biggest reasons why Daizenshuu numbers and multipliers are troublesome are Goten and Trunks. When they go Super Saiyan and shoot a not-full-power blast at Android 18, she does not attempt to block or deflect it, but instead dodges it, looking visibly shocked: Going by the Daizenshuu's numbers and multipliers, Goten and Trunks have to be around either Namek Goku or Android Vegeta's level to get such a reaction from 18. I know numbers are nerdy, but it might help illustrate what I'm getting at: Android Saga Vegeta base: 10 mil Android Saga SS Vegeta: 500 mil This could either mean Vegeta's getting x50 stronger...or +490 million stronger. In that case... Goten: 1 mil Daizenshuu SS Goten: 50 mil Addition SS Goten: 491 mil The Daizenshuu Goten would not cause 18 any concern. An addition Goten could still cause 18 concern. To me, going Super Saiyan = can beat anyone in the universe easily until you get to Frieza. Could Goten and Trunks beat Frieza at full power? Probably not, but judging from people's reactions they should darn well be able to beat Frieza's lower forms, and that doesn't seem like a 50x multiplier to me. That looks like +10 mil or something. Yes, power levels are BS, and the numbers are not important. I'm just using them to try and help illustrate a point. My primary argument is "The Daizenshuu numbers were made up by people who were not Toriyama, and are not reflected in what Toriyama wrote. Therefore, people should stop throwing them around as if they were law, despite being approved and 'official.'" My secondary argument is "Super Saiyan transformations are not multipliers at all." Goku vs. Yakon is interesting because it's a contradiction with what the Daizenshuu says: -- Base Goku can dodge and hurt Yakon, implying they're around the same. He only transformed for the light. -- Yakon is not fifty times weaker than SS Goku. So, going off your assumptions: 1 and 2. Gohan could very well be wrong about Yakon. He underestimated Buu later on, too. But seeing as neither he, Goku, or Vegeta were taking Yakon seriously at any part of the fight, and Goku didn't start by going Super Saiyan, I think it's more likely to assume he is correct, and they could win in base without getting injured. (Remember: the goal was to not take damage. Gohan would only encourage Goku to fight in base if he figured the two could beat Yakon easily.) 3. Goku could indeed be holding back as a Super Saiyan. However, if he was, why'd he go Super Saiyan 2? Going by the Daizenshuu's numbers, and assuming his base is roughly equal to Yakon, Goku could've gone as far as 40,000 kili. Surely that'd be enough to pump a lethal amount of light down Yakon's throat? The fact that he transformed yet again implies to me that when Goku is at 3,000 kili, he's not holding back. (It had to be a PL thing--SS2 doesn't seem any more inherently bright than SS1.) 4. Yes, I think so. Not in original manga = not definitive. What can I say, I'm a manga snob. 5. Valid 6. I definitely believe the Super Saiyan state became a bigger relative jump once the trained forms were discovered. 7. Lol, recursive canon. Basically what Super is, actually... 8. Very, very true. Yes, power levels are bullcrap. But some power levels are more bullcrap than others. And if you ignore the Daizenshuu, I think the scaling is decently consistent, even if it doesn't make much sense. (Consistently nonsensical?)
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Post by Axalon on Jul 30, 2017 9:41:13 GMT
I think you misunderstood me. In an earlier post in this very same thread, I said: I said I don't think Super Saiyan is a multiplier. I never said Kaioken wasn't. From the very beginning, that is literally what the Kaioken did. If it's got x3, x4, x10, x20 in its name, then it seems to be a power multiplier. However, Kaioken was also portrayed as increasingly hard to maintain, with progressively greater costs on the body; Super Saiyan never had such limits. I don't think Super Saiyan is just a glorified Kaioken. I only brought up those previous examples because this is Toriyama's modus operandi. I don't see him suddenly just changing it to additives out of the blue when Super Saiyan comes along, especially since multipliers were used after Super Saiyan was introduced with other characters (like Piccolo) and now that DBS has happened and it seems clear that multipliers are here to stay. Yes. The Viz manga oddly enough chooses not to include it, but is present in the original Japanese as a 10x multiplier. Frieza's transformations are also inferred multipliers. The moon is child's play for Piccolo at this point though. Even Roshi was able to do it in DB. Thanks to Toriyama's power scaling--yes. The moon is easier to destroy than Oozaru Gohan. It's stupid, but it is what it is. It's also a nice tactical move by Piccolo, that later ends up costing Vegeta more power to make up for. You mean the Vegeta who quite recently used a lot of energy in his Galick Gun, then got overpowered from a 4x Kamehameha and sent to high orbit, lost some power to create a Moon Blast, had a Kamehameha shot into his eye, had his own tail chopped off, and took a Spirit Bomb to the face? I'd imagine that someone that damaged and that exhausted would probably always resort to just chopping the tail off. Just the simple act of Oozaru Gohan falling on him took his last energy reserves, and at that point he had to crawl away to his space pod and Krillin was about to murder him with a sword. I agree. Goku and the other Saiyans transform after Frieza for literally every single opponent after this, since clearly their base form isn't enough to handle the threat. Except for Pui Pui, that sucker. Possibly Yakon if we take Gohan's statement at face value. If we take later stuff from Beerus into account, he sizes base Goku up and says he sees no way that he was able to defeat Frieza until after he goes SS1. It has to be more than just a couple million. Goku using a KKx20 had a power level of 60 million and he just singed Frieza's hand a little bit. Saying SS1 only adds a few million means his PL is at 5 million or so, and thus in no way should've been able to hurt Frieza, let alone defeat him in battle. Adding in a billion would be overkill. By using the failure of a 20x Kaioken, we can thus infer that SS1 is a higher multiplier than Kaioken as it gets better results. This is also why the Kaioken was abandoned. As SS1s they're roughly at Gohan's SS1 power level, more or less. Probably slightly less. We know this thanks to both Gohan and Vegeta expressing surprise at how strong the two are as SS1s. I like using Vegeta since he's a better example. He's stayed in shape unlike Gohan. Being on this level, this means #18 is simply weaker than them. This makes sense, since she laughed at SS1 Vegeta from back in the Android Saga and broke his arm and is now visibly worried about blasts from SS1 Trunks. You're assuming Goten (or Trunks) in base form are radically weaker. Vegeta actually getting tagged by Trunks despite actually trying not to get hit shows the gap between them is far closer than a hypothetical 9 million gap. Not close enough that they're completely equal, but close enough that Trunks can still hit him, which would be impossible if the gap were that large, because thanks power scaling! If #18 is worried about a low-power shot then Goten and Trunks can damn well beat Frieza. We don't even need PLs for this, we can use the (better) tiered system. SS1 Goku > Frieza #18 > SS1 Vegeta Super Vegeta > #18 #18 = Dodges and is scared by low-power shot from SS1 Trunks I agree that the Buu Saga throws everything out of wack. Unfortunately, since this is the Buu Saga, I don't take it seriously. As such, any contradictions that may arise I can't take seriously, because Toriyama obviously wasn't taking it as seriously either. I agree. But if the goal wasn't to take damage then Gohan should've also asked for help against Dabura, since he couldn't or wouldn't go SS2. But he didn't and even gave Buu some energy as a result. Given this questionable change in attitude from literally one fight ago, I can only surmise Gohan doesn't know what the hell he's doing. Or Toriyama just isn't taking it as seriously. Despite the power difference between the two Yakon was able to suck it all up and revert to him to base form, that's why. Yakon IS a magical beast after all. So then Goku did it again, but this time he maintained it. When it was clear that Yakon could handle even THAT, he went SS2 to overload him.
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Post by Ashanark on Aug 2, 2017 16:15:57 GMT
I only brought up those previous examples because this is Toriyama's modus operandi. I don't see him suddenly just changing it to additives out of the blue when Super Saiyan comes along, especially since multipliers were used after Super Saiyan was introduced with other characters (like Piccolo) and now that DBS has happened and it seems clear that multipliers are here to stay. I really really don't think Toriyama put enough thought into things to ever have hard multipliers. For example, Kaioken. What's the difference between "Kaioken" and "Kaioken x 2?" If Kaioken doubles Goku's power, then Kaioken x2 must be (Kaioken boost x 2), in which case Goku should've tripled in strength and passed up Vegeta. (Or is it exponential: Goku's strength x 2, x2?) Yet Goku had to use the Kaioken x3 anyway. Even if you believe Toriyama goofed and that Kaioken/Kaioken x2 are the same thing, how could an 18,000 Vegeta match a 24,000 Goku in a beam struggle anyway? I have my own explanations for these questions, and I know that arguing about Kaioken doesn't directly prove anything about if Super Saiyan transformations are multipliers or not. Still, it's illustrating my point that Toriyama didn't care that much about consistent PLs. In my opinion, this strongly implies "transformation = +plot required amount of strength" and not "transformation = ALWAYS this specific multiplier." And even if it is the latter, I have zero faith that the Daizenshuu's numbers are what Toriyama thought, or even match what he wrote. They are, at most, educated guesses, and they only get less reasonable as time goes on. Toriyama "approved" them, but he never wrote them. But again, 10x multipliers throw things into question. Gohan's PL as a child when Raditz showed up was reading 710 when he was agitated and 1307 when he was mad, but he didn't even register on Raditz's scouter when he was first with Goku, so he must've been less than 300 (Goku's "resting" PL) and likely less than 100. Either of those latter numbers multiplied by ten could've been handled by Piccolo without resorting to blowing up the moon. (An Oozaru in the 1,000 to 3,000 range.) And if Piccolo had no problem beating the crap out of Gohan as a regular child, he would have no problem fighting an Oozaru Gohan directly if he thought he could win. Instead, he freaked out and stood there watching, until he remembered what Raditz said and blew up the moon. Unenraged Gohan at the time of Vegeta's arrival was under a thousand. Using Toriyama's "multiplier," that puts his Oozaru against Vegeta at 9,000, a little over normal Goku. The same Goku that Vegeta effortlessly beat around. As damaged as Vegeta was, he was still more than capable of fighting until Gohan crushed him--that's why he survived Gohan's assault in the first place!--so why the fear when facing an opponent basically half his strength? (And while Gohan's angry PL was 2800, that was only for a single attack, so I don't consider that his "true" PL and something Oozaru would work off of.) So, again, Oozaru Vegeta may very well be 180,000, but I see that as a +160,000 thing, not a "no matter how strong you are, you will ALWAYS be ten times stronger." I see it more as "you become a serious problem." At the time of his first World Tournament, Oozaru Goku would've been able to crush Raditz, going by Toriyama's multiplier...but honestly, I don't see him beating either King Piccolo or Kami in that form, at that time. Do you? If not, we'll have to agree to disagree. This is complete headcanon, but "I'm exactly ten times stronger now!" seems a little too convenient to me. I'm not seeing Oozaru Vegeta as over 100,000. Going strictly from what we see, my interpretation is that the Oozaru Gohan Piccolo fought had to be at least Nappa's strength, and against Vegeta, Oozaru Gohan had to be about equal to Vegeta at his best. None of those are clean 10x multipliers, but more additions. By the way, somehow I've never heard anyone say Frieza's transformations were multipliers. How have I missed that for all these years? Do you know where it's implied? I'd like to think Goku could beat max Frieza in base, now, but it's also reasonable that he can't. I'm happy either way. That was just a number I threw out there. Goku's KKx20 PL of 60 million is a Daizenshuu-derived number. Not said in the manga anywhere that he's 3 mil in his base against Frieza. If anything I think he's higher than that--the gap between 2nd and 3rd Frieza was huge, but the gap between 3rd and whatever-the-heck-percentage 4th form Frieza was initially is even bigger. Of all Daizenshuu numbers, the "Super Saiyan is 50x base" is the only one that has any real credibility with me. KKx20 does basically nothing against 50% Frieza; Super Saiyan beats 100% Frieza. Adds up. Still don't think it's a multiplier, though Ugh. Buu saga. I disagree they're at Gohan's level, Piccolo could still beat them individual, and he was noticeably weaker than Cell Games Gohan. Even after 7 years I doubt he's caught up. Ugh. Buu saga. But this is, again, a problem with multipliers: they exaggerate gaps. I'll use totally arbitrary, not-serious numbers, just use to illustrate this point: Base Buu saga Vegeta: 40 mil. Base Buu saga Trunks: 35 mil. SS Vegeta: 2 billion. SS Trunks: 1.750 billion. The gap is now larger--not percentage wise, but in sheer numbers, than it was before: 250 million instead of just 5. And I don't know if Toriyama determined things by percentages. When Dodoria's at 22,000 and Vegeta's at 24,000, that's enough for Dodoria to not even land a hit. That's a whole other debate, though... My point is, if Super Saiyan is a fairly universal addition of power, Trunks' closeness to Vegeta makes more sense. Base Buu saga Vegeta: 40 mil. Base Trunks: 35 mil. SS Vegeta: 40 + 1960 mil = 2 billion. SS Trunks: 35 + 1960 mil = 1.995 billion. Again, these are just arbitrary numbers to illustrate a point. Ugh. Buu saga. But the whole multipliers thing also means I have to take the Daizenshuu numbers seriously when Toriyama never cited them in the manga, and even appears to contradict them later on. Goku being 3 million against Frieza? Nowhere in the manga. SS2 being double SS1, and SS3 four times SS2? Nowhere in the manga, and not even implied through what we see. Why the heck would Toriyama bring back PL numbers just for this one fight (doesn't mention them before Yakon, nor again after), if they're not meant to be reliable? Goku's base was around Yakon's, since Yakon didn't have him on the ropes by any means. That means he's 800 kili or so. His Super Saiyan is 3000. When he needs to get stronger, he doesn't stop holding back, he just goes SS2. 800 to 3000 isn't a 50x multiplier, it's either a 6x multiplier (which contradicts how it was a x50 against Frieza) or an addition of 2200 kili, whatever that means. I argue Super Saiyan is an addition of power. A five-year old with a PL of 10 going Super Saiyan should still be able to wreck the Ginyu Force at least, even though the Daizenshuu would say he'd only be at 500. I'd more easily believe it gave Goku 147 million on Namek than it consistently multiplying his power by 50. I'm not saying it's +147 mil, just that it's an addition. Not that much energy...Buu only gets powered up by physical contact, and Dabura didn't land even a single melee hit. I interpret this fight as Gohan trying to prove himself to his father and Vegeta, OR foolishly assuming he's still the strongest guy there, so if he can't beat Dabura, it won't matter if Goku and Vegeta join in. Or, y'know, Toriyama being an idiot. Salagir's of the opinion AT didn't care that much about the fight anyway--we don't see it start, and it's halfway done when we get back to it. *** This is similar to the issue we had with fooshin over the "Is Gohan stronger than Goku before he goes SS2 at the Cell Games" thing: my explanation makes perfect sense to me, but I can't really disprove yours, just argue mine makes more sense Thanks for being willing to read and participate with me regardless, it's fun to debate old-fashioned PLs every now and then.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 3, 2017 22:16:09 GMT
I really really don't think Toriyama put enough thought into things to ever have hard multipliers. I agree that Toriyama doesn't think these things through. In fact, I'm not even arguing explicitly that SS1 is a 50x multiplier, just that based off of everything else Toriyama does it makes sense that he'd also use some kind of multiplier for SS1 as well, even if he doesn't number crunch precisely, multiplying power levels is just what he does. We see it with the Oozaru, we see it with the Kaioken, we see it with Namekian fusion, and (off the top of my head) I'm pretty sure potara/dance fusion is also a multiplier. It's just what he does, which is why I assume SS1 and all the other states are also multipliers. We both know the true answer is the strength increases as the plot demands though. I agree that if we base Oozaru off of Gohan's PL of 1, Piccolo should be able to win. To me it stands to reason that it was instead based off of one of his other scouter readings. Multiplied by 10 puts him at a solid 7100 and thus too powerful for Piccolo. More if Oozaru is based off how much power the Saiyan is able to put out at the time. Otherwise, like you say, Piccolo could just punch him really, really hard. Even if we were to use your 3,000 example that's still way more than Piccolo was at the time, given that this was what, the day Raditz was killed? Piccolo was only at 408 at the time, and 1,308 after standing around doing nothing except charge his SBC. Piccolo could theoretically hide and charge up his SBC to super powerful levels for like 10 minutes to fight Oozaru Gohan, but that'd still require more charging than he did for Raditz. Even a 1,000 Gohan would require similar Raditz-levels of concentration. It again comes down to the moon being easier to destroy than Gohan. My point here is that Vegeta was incredibly damaged and so his power wasn't anywhere near his peak. In fact, Vegeta was practically bone dry on energy. He didn't even fight Gohan, really. He barely dodged Gohan trying to smash him with a rock, laments at how injured he is (else he could just kill Gohan) and then summons the last of his energy to chop Gohan's tail off. I can conclude that was the last of his energy, since he couldn't even move to stop a falling Gohan from crushing him. Gohan had more power, but his lack of control meant Vegeta was able to take advantage and slice off his tail. albeit at the cost of whatever energy he had left. Is there some other interpretation I'm not considering here that invalidates all this? Going off of JUST power levels? No, Kami or King Piccolo should not be able to defeat Kid Oozaru Goku. In terms of pure strength this is basically the exact same fight, PL wise, as Raditz vs Goku/Piccolo. If we factored tactics into the equation? Yeah, they'd probably kill him. Blow up the moon/chop off his tail, Goku falls to the ground unconscious. Dies. That's my take on it. Right, but that's why I brought up Vegeta's damaged condition. Vegeta had already expended a great amount of energy before transforming. If he had transformed right away he'd be much stronger than the Oozaru he was when he fought Goku. It isn't. I simply said that we can infer they are multipliers based off how his power exponentially rises and how Toriyama likes to do power scaling, which is via multipliers. It's possible the Daizenshuu is wrong about Goku's PL, but based off of how he fared against Frieza compared to everyone else I don't think it's too far off. Yeah. Ugh. Don't get me wrong, I'd absolutely like Piccolo to be stronger than them (he is compared to their base forms at least)...I just don't have much faith in the prospect. Trunks' lower-power shot seemed to have far more psychological impact to #18 than anyone short of Cell, while Piccolo was only roughly on par with #17 in the Cell Saga. Given that Vegeta actually had some difficulty dodging Trunks, and Goten was able to give Gohan a good sparring session, doesn't give me hope for one of my favorite characters. I agree that one you get into the nitty-gritty it makes less and less sense. Unfortunately, I think we simply care more than Toriyama did about such things. Honestly I never understood the kilis. It made no sense to use them once and never again. Which is why I brought up Goku only transforming to light up the area. At that initial measurement of him essentially flicking on a light switch, he read as 3000 kilis. After that point Babadi never measured him again. Given that Yakon was able to eat Goku's initial "light up the room" transformation, and then subsequently failed to eat it again when Goku was actually trying the second time around, seems to me to indicate that he put a bit more effort into his SS1 the second time around. I'd prefer a five year old just...not beating the Ginyu Force at all to be honest. I thought it was just damage, not damage only from physical contact. Dabura DID land a solid hit with a fireball, and we later see that Buu's energy meter has indeed risen. Given this was the only hit we see of the fight this is likely where that small bit of energy came from. That said I agree with Salagir's interpretation. Toriyama just didn't care. Basically, yeah. I'm not saying your explanation of Power Levels doesn't sense either, and could even work as a different interpretation of things. I just think Toriyama went about it in a different way.
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Post by Axalon on Aug 6, 2017 17:51:36 GMT
Ashanark I stumbled across this today, was reminded of our conversation here. Incoming Rant (not directed at you Ashy): A ten-fold increase? A TEN-FOLD INCREASE? WAT. That doesn't even make sense! Goku did a 20x increase before that and Frieza's reaction essentially amounted to "Ow! My hand!" when he wasn't even trying! So a 10x increase, half the power required to at a bare minimum make Frieza's hand hurt a tiny bit, went on to defeat Frieza at 100% power? Is he seriously suggesting that SS1 is literally the same as just going Oozaru? This must be what actually resurrected Vegeta on Namek. Not Shenron, oh no, he was rolling in his grave so hard that the centrifugal force returned his soul to his body from his sheer, unrelenting RAGE. This is all the more reason, IMO, why discussing Power Levels in terms of actual numbers is completely meaningless. In light of the author's original intentions, SS1 is the same as going Oozaru. I can see why later they upped it to something like 50x. 10x makes no sense! In one respect, this is kind of fitting. The Oozaru form was, after all, touted as a Saiyan's "true form" the "source of power" and "insert descriptor here" back when Saiyan tails mattered. So SS1 also being the "true form" and having equal power makes sense in THAT regard. But it still doesn't make sense! On the other hand... Because the numbers don't matter. Even tiers, to a point, don't matter since some tiers can be so frustratingly broad that a great deal of opponents could fit between them. Fighters can jump a tier or FIVE tiers depending on what the plot requires of them, for no arbitrary reason or sense.
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