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Post by iron leaf on Oct 22, 2017 2:16:00 GMT
Guys, do you remember Pikkon? Pikkon was hyped because he beat Cell with just one falcon kick, Cell was the last main villain at that point, only SS2 Gohan was able to beat. It was one of Pikkon's first actions in the series.
Jiren was hyped because he, ehm, mhm, what did he do at the beginning of the arc again? I forgot. Did he one-punched someone or did he destroy something or so? Please don't tell me he was hyped because someone in the show said he was strong. Such a lazy plotdevice. It took way too long to show Jiren in action or doing anything plot relevant at all (unless I missed something).
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 22, 2017 4:06:31 GMT
Pikkon was only filler though. Notably 'that' Cell scene.
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Post by iron leaf on Oct 22, 2017 4:53:46 GMT
Pikkon was only filler though. Notably 'that' Cell scene. I know. My point was, back then they managed to create tension within 5 episodes. 5 fu**ing episodes to create a hype about a character that we wouldn't see anymore (beside Fusion Reborn) and they nailed it. The choreography in the Pikkon vs Son Goku fight was great though the animation was shit (probably the worst animation in the whole franchise). And after Pikkon lost we still had respect towards him. The introduction of Tenshinhan till the conclusion of the fight between Son Goku and Tenshinhan at the Martial Arts Tournament was 16 episodes (I looked it up). Jiren was introduced in episode 82 the exhibition fights. Then in episode 96 we see Jiren the very first time doing something, a slow-motion dodging move. 4 episodes later he knocks out Kale with one move. And then slowly he has more action. Jiren introduction and his hype is not overall bad, but definitely nothing I would call a good setup as well.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 23, 2017 1:31:28 GMT
Axalon at this point I'm only being the devil's advocate but I remembered another thing: Since the beginning, Hit showed to be amused by Goku's attitude and was truly surprised that he managed to block a punch. When Goku managed to block his attacks and even counter him, therefore improved, he had already opened up quite significantly. Goku said something like "I'm not that young!" and hit replied like "LOL I'm over 1000 years old". In any case, Hit was quickly portrayed to be as some sort of equal to Goku, only hinting misteriously that he'd have better techniques but not allowed to use them. But at this point I'd say they were already in good terms and respectful of each other. On the other hand Jiren's first interaction with Goku was "Fuck off", while teleporting behind him, while Goku cowers in fear. I get your point, but I still feel everything about Hit was done far more naturally and felt a lot more organic. Honestly, the only viable option for me would be 2. But I think 3 is actually the most likely. I think Jiren is already far too gone to accurately follow the Hit formula. When something becomes this exaggerated (on every front: strength, muscles, serious demeanor, arrogance, over-hyping) it's more like a parody of the formula on steroids than the real, actual formula. Oh I totally get this point. I agree that Hit just felt more natural, likely due to the setting he was introduced in at the time. That said I don't think Jiren's viewpoint is unsubstantiated either. To most people in the ToP, at least when it started, Goku's the jackass responsible for starting the whole bloody thing in the first place and putting the fate of entire universes on the line out of some childish need to fight stronger people when the Zen-Ohs had straight up forgotten about the entire thing in the first place. Telling such an evil villain to get lost and intimidating him isn't too far-fetched. It's like when Raditz tail-slapped Krillin. A simple move but so dismissive.
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Post by Beerus the Wondercat on Oct 23, 2017 14:38:47 GMT
Jiren is absolutely overrated. Sure it's debatable to say if he lived up to the hype. He's definitely the most powerful combatant introduced in the series-Omni-King not included. Even with the unveiling of a new transformation it didn't make much of a difference to him. However, none of this changes the fact he is AGGRESSIVELY boring.
Seriously. I don't think I've ever been this disinterested in a Dragon Ball villain/rival EVER. Even filler characters like Pikkon were interesting as oppose to Jiren who's only characteristic is frowning. Jiren is basically a plank of wood with an angry face drawn on. His characterization is so wooden, from his generic moves to his non-existence personality.
I get he is this act's current plot-device that the protagonists must overcome. However, previous rivals have had personality or interesting powers to disguise that fact or make them compelling/interesting. Jiren's entire shtick is "I AM STRONG". Nothing fancy like Hit's time-skip or Cell knowing all the Z-Fighters techniques. He isn't magic like Buu, oozing with evil like Frieza or even a Saiyan like Vegeta. He isn't even cartoony evil like Piccolo or Broly. He's just stoic 100% of the time. That's not interesting to me. He's got NO depth to his character beyond his feats. They keep making it the case to state that Jiren is so powerful etc but never anything about him personally.
He's not an assassin like Hit, Emperor like Frieza or anything. He's this ambiguous Pride trooper that we have no reason to care about. Everyone loves the fact he's so serious even though he just stood and watched his fellow troopers get knocked out, couldn't be bothered to KO Kale and let Goku power up the spirit bomb. But he'll criticize Hit for being proudful. So he's got two characteristics; stoic and hypocritical. Everyone knows he can pretty much one-shot everyone with no real effort. The writers don't know how to portray that element so he's just there not doing anything while his team loses which makes them a colossal idiot. HEY JIREN, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY CAN'T TOUCH YOU, IF THERE'S MORE PEOPLE THAN YOU AT THE END, GUESS WHAT? YOU'LL LOSE.
I'll pose a game for everyone. Name something interesting about Jiren's character APART from feats. Tell me about his personality, how is he compelling? Or can we come to the conclusion he's basically "I'M SO STRONG I CAN NEGATE TIME ITSELF!" plot-device?
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 23, 2017 22:05:38 GMT
Guys, do you remember Pikkon? Pikkon was hyped because he beat Cell with just one falcon kick, Cell was the last main villain at that point, only SS2 Gohan was able to beat. It was one of Pikkon's first actions in the series. Jiren was hyped because he, ehm, mhm, what did he do at the beginning of the arc again? I forgot. Did he one-punched someone or did he destroy something or so? Please don't tell me he was hyped because someone in the show said he was strong. Such a lazy plotdevice. It took way too long to show Jiren in action or doing anything plot relevant at all (unless I missed something). This is a very good point. It is an amazing point, since Pikkon was an anime only character created by Toei Animation themselves. Pikkon was just as stoic and seemingly the strong tournament rival Goku wants to fight. We did get some quirks and personality to him. His technique was distinguished from normal ones since his it incorporated fire to it.
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Post by Azoth on Oct 23, 2017 23:51:03 GMT
Pikkon had a personality, I think (it's been a while.) Jiren is just really strong. And arrogant. Like basically every other villain in DB.
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Post by Beerus the Wondercat on Oct 25, 2017 13:42:12 GMT
Pikkon had a personality, I think (it's been a while.) Jiren is just really strong. And arrogant. Like basically every other villain in DB. While that's true, every villain still had distinctive differences that made them separate characters. For example, Vegeta isn't the same character that Frieza is while still both having arrogant streaks. Same with Cell and Buu. The most over-the-top arrogance being Zamasu, but he was immortal and deluded so I suppose it was well-deserved. Jiren's only/ and main characteristic is something the other villains already have from the get-go. He's not interesting as character. Sure, his ambiguous strength such as casually negating time-skip, pushing the spirit bomb back with a glare and one-shotting Kale is a great example of his power, but if all you care about is POWAH LEVULS then all you're left with is a shallow character without substance. I prefer even the over-the-top cartoon villains who chew the entire scene opposed to 100% stoic "grrrr, look how serious i'm taking this. I never talk and am as deep as a paddling pool."
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Post by Jason9000 on Oct 25, 2017 18:14:03 GMT
Pikkon had a personality, I think (it's been a while.) Jiren is just really strong. And arrogant. Like basically every other villain in DB. While that's true, every villain still had distinctive differences that made them separate characters. For example, Vegeta isn't the same character that Frieza is while still both having arrogant streaks. Same with Cell and Buu. The most over-the-top arrogance being Zamasu, but he was immortal and deluded so I suppose it was well-deserved. Jiren's only/ and main characteristic is something the other villains already have from the get-go. He's not interesting as character. Sure, his ambiguous strength such as casually negating time-skip, pushing the spirit bomb back with a glare and one-shotting Kale is a great example of his power, but if all you care about is POWAH LEVULS then all you're left with is a shallow character without substance. I prefer even the over-the-top cartoon villains who chew the entire scene opposed to 100% stoic "grrrr, look how serious i'm taking this. I never talk and am as deep as a paddling pool." But this Dragon Ball Super. You’re forgetting that “POWAH LEVULS” are the main driving force of this franchise. Hell they even used it under the new term ‘Mortal level’ by using an arbitrary numeric system that was never explained how the Universes were ranked or how to increase your Mortal Level except that the gods of destruction and the Supreme Kai’s have to get along well and do their jobs. I saw some comments on YouTube foaming at the mouth with Jiren because he had such a high power level and nothing else about him.
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Post by FunnyEvil on Oct 25, 2017 18:17:10 GMT
Self righteous jerks who stare off angrily into nothingness for several hours are very popular with the masses. I'm sure my avatar could name one example...
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Post by Azoth on Oct 25, 2017 21:48:56 GMT
Pikkon had a personality, I think (it's been a while.) Jiren is just really strong. And arrogant. Like basically every other villain in DB. While that's true, every villain still had distinctive differences that made them separate characters. For example, Vegeta isn't the same character that Frieza is while still both having arrogant streaks. Same with Cell and Buu. The most over-the-top arrogance being Zamasu, but he was immortal and deluded so I suppose it was well-deserved. Jiren's only/ and main characteristic is something the other villains already have from the get-go. He's not interesting as character. Sure, his ambiguous strength such as casually negating time-skip, pushing the spirit bomb back with a glare and one-shotting Kale is a great example of his power, but if all you care about is POWAH LEVULS then all you're left with is a shallow character without substance. I prefer even the over-the-top cartoon villains who chew the entire scene opposed to 100% stoic "grrrr, look how serious i'm taking this. I never talk and am as deep as a paddling pool." That's my point. All the villains we've had so far had something to set them apart from one another. Jiren does not.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 25, 2017 23:12:59 GMT
While that's true, every villain still had distinctive differences that made them separate characters. For example, Vegeta isn't the same character that Frieza is while still both having arrogant streaks. Same with Cell and Buu. The most over-the-top arrogance being Zamasu, but he was immortal and deluded so I suppose it was well-deserved. Jiren's only/ and main characteristic is something the other villains already have from the get-go. He's not interesting as character. Sure, his ambiguous strength such as casually negating time-skip, pushing the spirit bomb back with a glare and one-shotting Kale is a great example of his power, but if all you care about is POWAH LEVULS then all you're left with is a shallow character without substance. I prefer even the over-the-top cartoon villains who chew the entire scene opposed to 100% stoic "grrrr, look how serious i'm taking this. I never talk and am as deep as a paddling pool." That's my point. All the villains we've had so far had something to set them apart from one another. Jiren does not. Ultimately I think this comes down to his behavior. He's the strongest mortal in the ToP...but he's essentially a minion who works for Belmod. What's more, he's a fairly reserved minion so he isn't flashy and violently funny like the Ginyu Force or prone to bursts of uncontrollable battle lust like Nappa. For all intents and purposes he's a soldier dutifully following orders. In fact, this distinct LACK of traits ironically sets him apart from everyone else by virtue of his not having them. He's basically the anti-Broly in terms of personality. As we can see the result is a ...mixed reception.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 26, 2017 0:26:11 GMT
That's my point. All the villains we've had so far had something to set them apart from one another. Jiren does not. Ultimately I think this comes down to his behavior. He's the strongest mortal in the ToP...but he's essentially a minion who works for Belmod. What's more, he's a fairly reserved minion so he isn't flashy and violently funny like the Ginyu Force or prone to bursts of uncontrollable battle lust like Nappa. For all intents and purposes he's a soldier dutifully following orders. In fact, this distinct LACK of traits ironically sets him apart from everyone else by virtue of his not having them. He's basically the anti-Broly in terms of personality. As we can see the result is a ...mixed reception. What would've happened if all of U11's Pride Troopers managed to maintain the same level of mental discipline as Jiren and are opposite of their current Anime portrayal, such as no Ginyu Poses, no comedic moments (I'm looking at you U2 transformation episode and #17 breaks tradition, I'm still sour about that segment), no "JUSTICE" shouts of any sort... kinda like the Manga's current depiction of Toppo actually. Would we be forced to consider U11 (Anime) boring due to lack of displayed characteristics, or unique since they managed to uphold mental discipline of a Soldier going to war? Maybe the main issue is setting the other 9 members as " a bunch of queers... *Tokusentai*... we shouldn't think less of them for it vibrant/lively and making the 10th one the stoic with a "I can't be bothered, you guys deal with it" attitude towards the "End of the (11th) Universe" tournament. I think if all 10 of them were shown as stoic as Manga!Toppo, we might have less of a reaction towards Jiren's "bored" nature since we can say "oh, all of them are that stern."
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Post by Axalon on Oct 26, 2017 1:36:05 GMT
Ultimately I think this comes down to his behavior. He's the strongest mortal in the ToP...but he's essentially a minion who works for Belmod. What's more, he's a fairly reserved minion so he isn't flashy and violently funny like the Ginyu Force or prone to bursts of uncontrollable battle lust like Nappa. For all intents and purposes he's a soldier dutifully following orders. In fact, this distinct LACK of traits ironically sets him apart from everyone else by virtue of his not having them. He's basically the anti-Broly in terms of personality. As we can see the result is a ...mixed reception. What would've happened if all of U11's Pride Troopers managed to maintain the same level of mental discipline as Jiren and are opposite of their current Anime portrayal, such as no Ginyu Poses, no comedic moments (I'm looking at you U2 transformation episode and #17 breaks tradition, I'm still sour about that segment), no "JUSTICE" shouts of any sort... kinda like the Manga's current depiction of Toppo actually. Would we be forced to consider U11 (Anime) boring due to lack of displayed characteristics, or unique since they managed to uphold mental discipline of a Soldier going to war? Maybe the main issue is setting the other 9 members as " a bunch of queers... *Tokusentai*... we shouldn't think less of them for it vibrant/lively and making the 10th one the stoic with a "I can't be bothered, you guys deal with it" attitude towards the "End of the (11th) Universe" tournament. I think if all 10 of them were shown as stoic as Manga!Toppo, we might have less of a reaction towards Jiren's "bored" nature since we can say "oh, all of them are that stern." Depends on the portrayal really.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 26, 2017 3:00:21 GMT
I think Jiren could have worked better if they given him more screen time to interact with people before the tournament started and with his own teammates. I haven’t followed every episode of this arc and missed all the setup episodes, but I think Jiren is meant to bbe foil for Goku that he should have been made a caricature of the “heroic” Goku that Toriyama hates only smarter.
Jiren appears to be super heroic, easy going or forgiving of Goku unlike other universe who blamed him for their predicament. He talks to Goku to see if he is as evil as everyone says he is then confirm Goku is not only a good yet a bit slow man who thrives for a challenge similar to Jiren. Have him empathize with Goku and or give some cryptic warning on making it to the top isn’t as cracked up as it seems to be. He doesn’t need to have a quirk like everyone else, but just show he is intelligent, enjoys fighting, and have him be the person who voices dissatisfaction with his god’s plan of him staying out most of the battles, but ultimately follow the plan because he feels it is his duty as a protector.
Then when the big match with Goku happens that is when you let Jiren act more selfish by sparring with Goku because he likes him. Cut to some mental narrations during the battle at how empty fighting has become for him since he became so strong that he has no more challenges for himself and how fighting Goku reminds him of himself back when he striving to be the strongest. It is a basic Shonen rival trope, but it would at least give Jiren more screen time, flesh his character out, and can be used as a take that by Toriyama to everyone who remembers the “heroic” Goku by setting him up to get beaten by the “true” Goku he envisioned.
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Post by Jason9000 on Oct 26, 2017 3:45:40 GMT
I think Jiren could have worked better if they given him more screen time to interact with people before the tournament started and with his own teammates. I haven’t followed every episode of this arc and missed all the setup episodes, but I think Jiren is meant to bbe foil for Goku that he should have been made a caricature of the “heroic” Goku that Toriyama hates only smarter. Jiren appears to be super heroic, easy going or forgiving of Goku unlike other universe who blamed him for their predicament. He talks to Goku to see if he is as evil as everyone says he is then confirm Goku is not only a good yet a bit slow man who thrives for a challenge similar to Jiren. Have him empathize with Goku and or give some cryptic warning on making it to the top isn’t as cracked up as it seems to be. He doesn’t need to have a quirk like everyone else, but just show he is intelligent, enjoys fighting, and have him be the person who voices dissatisfaction with his god’s plan of him staying out most of the battles, but ultimately follow the plan because he feels it is his duty as a protector. Then when the big match with Goku happens that is when you let Jiren act more selfish by sparring with Goku because he likes him. Cut to some mental narrations during the battle at how empty fighting has become for him since he became so strong that he has no more challenges for himself and how fighting Goku reminds him of himself back when he striving to be the strongest. It is a basic Shonen rival trope, but it would at least give Jiren more screen time, flesh his character out, and can be used as a take that by Toriyama to everyone who remembers the “heroic” Goku by setting him up to get beaten by the “true” Goku he envisioned. Wouldn’t that just be copying Hit again? Stoic chars that is stupid strong, bored with most of his existence, and only opens up and begins to enjoy fighting again because Goku gives him a challenge?
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Oct 26, 2017 4:31:20 GMT
I think Jiren could have worked better if they given him more screen time to interact with people before the tournament started and with his own teammates. I haven’t followed every episode of this arc and missed all the setup episodes, but I think Jiren is meant to bbe foil for Goku that he should have been made a caricature of the “heroic” Goku that Toriyama hates only smarter. Jiren appears to be super heroic, easy going or forgiving of Goku unlike other universe who blamed him for their predicament. He talks to Goku to see if he is as evil as everyone says he is then confirm Goku is not only a good yet a bit slow man who thrives for a challenge similar to Jiren. Have him empathize with Goku and or give some cryptic warning on making it to the top isn’t as cracked up as it seems to be. He doesn’t need to have a quirk like everyone else, but just show he is intelligent, enjoys fighting, and have him be the person who voices dissatisfaction with his god’s plan of him staying out most of the battles, but ultimately follow the plan because he feels it is his duty as a protector. Then when the big match with Goku happens that is when you let Jiren act more selfish by sparring with Goku because he likes him. Cut to some mental narrations during the battle at how empty fighting has become for him since he became so strong that he has no more challenges for himself and how fighting Goku reminds him of himself back when he striving to be the strongest. It is a basic Shonen rival trope, but it would at least give Jiren more screen time, flesh his character out, and can be used as a take that by Toriyama to everyone who remembers the “heroic” Goku by setting him up to get beaten by the “true” Goku he envisioned. Wouldn’t that just be copying Hit again? Stoic chars that is stupid strong, bored with most of his existence, and only opens up and begins to enjoy fighting again because Goku gives him a challenge? Goku always has that special gift, make enemies like him (save Frieza, Cell and Buu) after a long hard fight. Even Beerus did it originally in BoG movie and "rehash" anime arc. Enjoy fighting not as much but "interested in this SSG who could give him a challenge" definitely. I think the difference here is that Hit still can push himself further and would be thankful for seeing Goku striving to be stronger than before. With Jiren's possible character, it's like looking back at his old days of fighting where he strove to get stronger and get past his limits. Here, he's already past his limits, can't really appreciate Goku as much, only as a resemblance of his old training days.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 26, 2017 4:37:04 GMT
I think Jiren could have worked better if they given him more screen time to interact with people before the tournament started and with his own teammates. I haven’t followed every episode of this arc and missed all the setup episodes, but I think Jiren is meant to bbe foil for Goku that he should have been made a caricature of the “heroic” Goku that Toriyama hates only smarter. Jiren appears to be super heroic, easy going or forgiving of Goku unlike other universe who blamed him for their predicament. He talks to Goku to see if he is as evil as everyone says he is then confirm Goku is not only a good yet a bit slow man who thrives for a challenge similar to Jiren. Have him empathize with Goku and or give some cryptic warning on making it to the top isn’t as cracked up as it seems to be. He doesn’t need to have a quirk like everyone else, but just show he is intelligent, enjoys fighting, and have him be the person who voices dissatisfaction with his god’s plan of him staying out most of the battles, but ultimately follow the plan because he feels it is his duty as a protector. Then when the big match with Goku happens that is when you let Jiren act more selfish by sparring with Goku because he likes him. Cut to some mental narrations during the battle at how empty fighting has become for him since he became so strong that he has no more challenges for himself and how fighting Goku reminds him of himself back when he striving to be the strongest. It is a basic Shonen rival trope, but it would at least give Jiren more screen time, flesh his character out, and can be used as a take that by Toriyama to everyone who remembers the “heroic” Goku by setting him up to get beaten by the “true” Goku he envisioned. Wouldn’t that just be copying Hit again? Stoic chars that is stupid strong, bored with most of his existence, and only opens up and begins to enjoy fighting again because Goku gives him a challenge? There would be similarities since it is essentially Shonen rival tropes, but he wouldn’t be like Hit. Hit is stoic, but my suggestion would be make Jiren easy going heroic and friendly guy who at one point wanted to be the strongest, got his wish, felt bummed, but still keeps his friendly demeanor and do his duty to protect his universe. Hit is stoic and had to get to the point of him being a team player. Jiren should have been the opposite in terms of demanor and goal.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 20:47:07 GMT
Besides that maybe the setup of the battle royale makes it difficult to explore more of Jiren's character. If he's not meditating or standing around, he would have to be fighting but he's so OP that he would've taken out 99% of the competitors within the first few minutes. What made Hit more interesting in my opinion is that he was an assassin so he wasn't evil and just indifferent towards killing people for money. That was basically all we knew about him up until the final battle where we also learned he has some type of honor code since he gave up against Monaka. I think if we're going to learn more about Jiren it probably won't be until the end of the tournament.
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Post by Axalon on Nov 2, 2017 0:50:37 GMT
Besides that maybe the setup of the battle royale makes it difficult to explore more of Jiren's character. If he's not meditating or standing around, he would have to be fighting but he's so OP that he would've taken out 99% of the competitors within the first few minutes. What made Hit more interesting in my opinion is that he was an assassin so he wasn't evil and just indifferent towards killing people for money. That was basically all we knew about him up until the final battle where we also learned he has some type of honor code since he gave up against Monaka. I think if we're going to learn more about Jiren it probably won't be until the end of the tournament. Finally someone agrees that we'll probably see more Jiren development towards the end of the tournament! Your image makes me really wish Jiren had just deflected the Spirit Bomb back to Goku because he was as pure of heart as Gohan was back in the Saiyan Saga. That would've been a good intro as an antagonist that hadn't been done before in DB. Someone who is not only strong, but is morally superior to Goku and is fighting to ensure his entire universe isn't erased in the tournament. People like Toppo would feel justified in their belief of JUSTICE seeing the bomb reflection and subsequent detonation on Goku as proof that Goku's an evil piece of trash (in his mind) and would make every universe's distrust of U7 that much more evident. Jiren should've been the type of personality that Toriyama was tired of people comparing Goku with. Just someone really, really good who does things for the moral reason of doing it because it's the right thing to do, as opposed to how he wants Goku to be a good person who kind of just happens to do good things in his own selfish way.
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