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Post by Son Pan on Aug 11, 2017 4:06:36 GMT
<abbr data-timestamp="1502363956000" title="Aug 10, 2017 4:19:16 GMT -7" class="o-timestamp time">Aug 10, 2017 4:19:16 GMT -7</abbr> Solus said: If there is any strain in ASS that is higher than in normal SSJ state neither Vegeta nor Trunks showed signs of struggling with it. Also Goku made no comment on ASS but on USJ when he said he was too slow and the form drains too much energy. Of course, SSJ2 offers way more power, but in a situation where you can't reach SSJ2, ASS is still better than nothing. And especially when we compare SS2 and SS3. While SS2 seems to be the perfect form in terms of power, speed and stamina with a huge boost in all of them compared to SSJ, SS3 increases speed and power at the cost of stamina. A dissadvantage that the ASS form didn't have. So if you augment SS2 with a similar transformation to ASS you would still gain a huge increase in power and speed (not as much as with SS3, though) but no decrease in stamina. That way he would be considerably stronger than in his usual SSJ2 and could maybe outlast Goku's SS3. But I do understand, that many don't think that way since the ASS form was only used by Vegeta and Trunks before the Cell Games. I'm not even sure if they used it against the Cell Jr.s, since in the manga Vegeta doesn't seem to be as buffed as before. So it was a cool idea but was thrown away later as if it never happened like Kaoiken. Goku made no comment on ASS, but I think there were implications there to suggests he also felt ASS was also not worth it like USS. Goku displayed both ASS and USS to Gohan before determining USS's flaws. Afterward Goku tells his son that overall he felt the original Super Saiyan was the best. For Goku to say that means he felt ASS wasn't despite seemingly granting an increase of power and seemingly not having the speed decrease. He then went on to mention how Super Saiyans transformations took a lot of energy to and put a strain on the body already and that their best bet would be conditioning their bodies to lessen the strain they had to make them more efficient. The energy used to transform and strain it puts on the body would lessen those free up all that energy to increase the overall power without needing to transform again. For Goku to take this route at least means he isn't considering ASS as an option. To me for ASS must not be as powerful or as good as it first appeared when Vegeta used it. I noticed after Vegeta saw what Goku was doing after he came out of the Time Chamber he said it was brilliant and berated Trunks when he suggested Goku was planning to use the energy he saved from conditioning his body to handle the strain of the original SS to transform again. At least in the manga (can't remember if it is done in the anime) Vegeta never used ASS form again even when they fought the Cell Juniors, meaning he deemed Super Saiyan better form as well. The manga or anime never gives us a clear cut reason, but I think Goku's whole conversation to Gohan about how transforming into newer forms is a bad option for them means he feels ASS isn't doing them any favors. This is speculation on my part, but considering the ASS power increase involves the Super Saiyans muscles to start swelling means that it starts them down the path of focusing too much on power at the expense of speed. Now I am not saying it makes ASS as slow as USS, but the fact that it is going down the same path of bulking the body up is some indication that the form is starting to emphasize power over speed, not granting the same increase in power and speed Super Saiyan offered. Goku and Vegeta came to conclusion that even ASS wasn't worth using. Perhaps the form doesn't increase power and speed enough to justify the energy used to enter it and maintain it? It is Toriyama, so I imagine his mindset was bigger muscles is meant to be the wrong path and modest transformations we saw Gohan go through was meant to be the right path. He disregarded the forms cause they were wrong. Salagir could feel differently though and ASS 2 is what Vegeta is talking about. |
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Post by Solus on Aug 11, 2017 10:10:14 GMT
To make one thing clear: I don't think, Salagir will go that path, because it wouldn't follow the original DBZ way of thinking just as you explained. But on the other hand, I'd like that idea. And just for the sake of discussion, let's view it from another perspective: During the Cyborg Saga more muscles meant more power. Everyone who got stronger also got a huge buff (with Goku and Gohan as an exception). Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo and Cell (from imperfect to semi perfect at least) all increased their muscle mass and got stronger with it. And Piccolo might have been the best example, since he didn't transform. During his fight with Cell and later against C17 he looked as huge as Gast. Also in the movies that play around that time, the buff forms were displayed, where the antagonist (Broly and Bojack) are as bulky as Trunks USS but without any loss of speed. Broly was even faster than Gohan and Goku. Of course, Trunks and Cell overdid it with their USS transformation, since it obviously focused on an increase of power but sacrificed speed to a point that it was even slower than the normal SSJ. But ASS wasn't. So the idea, that mass slows you down may have been hinted at by Goku in the time chamber, but was really executed first in the next arc. Look at Piccolo now. He went from Hulk to Bruce Banner. And in the BoG Movie they overdid it with the SSJG form. From a perspective of reallism mass indeed slows you down. But not to the extend that is shown here. And a form as thin as SSJG will bring you absolutely no benefits, since without mass your punches have no impact, no matter how fast they may be.
So the whole change of mind could have been just an artistic choice, since up to the cyborg Saga every increase in power also meant an increase in mass (Turles, Zarbon, Freezer's 100 %, Cooler's augmentation). I think at some point some-one complained that the characters just keep getting bulkier and that a point was reached where no exceed was possible. So they threw that concept away completely. All I'm saying is that this choice was made out of the blue and had not been hinted at at any point in the story before.
Edit: And I checked the manga again. Vegeta and Trunks do use the ASS during their fight against the Baby Cells. So they either couldn't figure out how to use FPSSJ (which in my oppinion is not actually a form but only the normal SSJ with a higher PL) or they just deemed ASS as the better form.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 11, 2017 17:50:48 GMT
I don't think big muscles in general are bad, but for the purposes of the Saiyans transformations that the bigger muscles was meant to be an indication they were going down the incorrect path. It makes a good red herring since the muscles mass increasing is usually a good way to tell if someone was stronger. When we saw Vegeta use ASS it seemed like the right path, especially when he dominated Semi-Perfect Cell. When Trunks took it further by going USS and muscles swelled up even more it seemed like he was on the right track. Having Goku come out later and explain to Gohan USS is the wrong path and how increased size is actually liability was a good surprise. By saying the right path is Super Saiyan and they should work on the basics to get rid of its flaws for us to get stronger it seemed to be Toriyama giving credence that even it was the best form out of the three and the one they should focus on.
I won't claim Toriyama planned that from the start. He proclaimed he never planned things out and just drew what he felt that week. However, I do sometimes think he was able to tie together past events with current ones he drew to make it appear less random and actually flowed together as if he had planned it from the start. I think ASS is one of them. Bigger muscles made Vegeta look stronger and his proformance against Cell in his semi-perfect form made his audience think this the form that surpasses SS. When Trunks pushed it further to USS it made us all think he could fight Cell's perfect form as an equal only to have the rug pulled from under us. It is a surprising twist to tell us the audience the big muscles were hurting more than helping. I think when Toriyama came up with USS he came up with the idea to retroactively the bigger muscles for the new forms he added to be bad and Super Saiyan classic is meant to be the right path for them. ASS be that same token was just deemed as The wrong path as well.
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Post by Solus on Aug 11, 2017 21:05:07 GMT
I don't think big muscles in general are bad, but for the purposes of the Saiyans transformations that the bigger muscles was meant to be an indication they were going down the incorrect path. It makes a good red herring since the muscles mass increasing is usually a good way to tell if someone was stronger. When we saw Vegeta use ASS it seemed like the right path, especially when he dominated Semi-Perfect Cell. When Trunks took it further by going USS and muscles swelled up even more it seemed like he was on the right track. Having Goku come out later and explain to Gohan USS is the wrong path and how increased size is actually liability was a good surprise. By saying the right path is Super Saiyan and they should work on the basics to get rid of its flaws for us to get stronger it seemed to be Toriyama giving credence that even it was the best form out of the three and the one they should focus on. I won't claim Toriyama planned that from the start. He proclaimed he never planned things out and just drew what he felt that week. However, I do sometimes think he was able to tie together past events with current ones he drew to make it appear less random and actually flowed together as if he had planned it from the start. I think ASS is one of them. Bigger muscles made Vegeta look stronger and his proformance against Cell in his semi-perfect form made his audience think this the form that surpasses SS. When Trunks pushed it further to USS it made us all think he could fight Cell's perfect form as an equal only to have the rug pulled from under us. It is a surprising twist to tell us the audience the big muscles were hurting more than helping. I think when Toriyama came up with USS he came up with the idea to retroactively the bigger muscles for the new forms he added to be bad and Super Saiyan classic is meant to be the right path for them. ASS be that same token was just deemed as The wrong path as well. You are right, it was indeed a good twist. And I'm ok with how SSJ2 and SSJ3 don't change the proportions of their bodies. The only thing I don't like about it is how Goku managed within one year to exceed Vegeta by far without transforming. So Vegeta and Trunks had this cool next stage and we saw that it wasn't an alternate form but really a level above regular SSJ, since Vegeta turned SSJ and then transformed even further. All bystanders noticed how during this transformation his ki grew incredibly, which leads me to the conclusion, that in regular SSJ he was far weaker. How come, Goku didn't need the multiplyer of that transformation and was still stronger than the two of them? Within one year? I mean, if they said, Goku's pl wasn't all that high, but he could manage to keep up with Cell due to lesser exhaustion or a more efficient way of fighting, I'd totally buy that. But no, he just got magically stronger than Vegeta for plot reasons. And afterwards Vegeta and Trunks went back to the time chamber. Now knowing exactly what they had to do to acchieve the exact same feats. But they somehow don't and still rely to their seemingly useless transformation, apparently without any effort, since they still couldn't close the gap between them and Goku, let alone Cell. That's just outright Bullshit. But ok, let's just not talk about that and get back to topic.  |
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 11, 2017 22:42:50 GMT
That is cool. It is just a difference of opinion at this point.
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