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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 17:30:41 GMT
Bold: Jokes aside, why did people even start debating about Videl's power level when it's clearly evident that she would never even match the likes of Nam, let alone King Piccolo. The original question was about whether Spopovich's Majin Boost could bump him up more than a single Tier. The weaker you are, the more of a boost you experience supposedly. Vegeta's boost was only "one tier" and so, the Frieza force mooks could've either been upped enough to pose a challenge to Piccolo and he fights all of them one on one rather than a simple brawl. Then the reason Spopovich's boost was defended to jump more than a single tier was because Videl was assumed to be "~2+ tiers higher than the average human" thanks to learning Ki flight. However, since Ki control didn't have a complete correlation to raw power, this assumption should've been proven false and case closed. But then there was a huge tangent and here we are now, overthinking the "Intro to a new Magical Threat" when it was clear that "a normal human shouldn't have done all those feats, something is wrong with him!" Thanks for the help! I too believe that the Majinization power boost would be more of anadvantage were you weaker, but the Frieza Force (bullshit name I tell you) mooks who I think would have normally been in the low thousands, would be boosted to the level of the Ginyu Force at best, still making them cannon fodder for Piccolo who is someone who can go toe-to-toe with a Cell Games era Cell Junior. If he decides to pull a U13 Vegeta and swiftly knocks out Majin Cold, this whole thing would be like sweeping dust under the carpet, except with maybe Majin Cooler's augmented form, who should be around Android 16 level now.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Nov 3, 2017 17:37:28 GMT
The original question was about whether Spopovich's Majin Boost could bump him up more than a single Tier. The weaker you are, the more of a boost you experience supposedly. Vegeta's boost was only "one tier" and so, the Frieza force mooks could've either been upped enough to pose a challenge to Piccolo and he fights all of them one on one rather than a simple brawl. Then the reason Spopovich's boost was defended to jump more than a single tier was because Videl was assumed to be "~2+ tiers higher than the average human" thanks to learning Ki flight. However, since Ki control didn't have a complete correlation to raw power, this assumption should've been proven false and case closed. But then there was a huge tangent and here we are now, overthinking the "Intro to a new Magical Threat" when it was clear that "a normal human shouldn't have done all those feats, something is wrong with him!" Thanks for the help! I too believe that the Majinization power boost would be more of anadvantage were you weaker, but the Frieza Force (bullshit name I tell you) mooks who I think would have normally been in the low thousands, would be boosted to the level of the Ginyu Force at best, still making them cannon fodder for Piccolo who is someone who can go toe-to-toe with a Cell Games era Cell Junior. If he decides to pull a U13 Vegeta and swiftly knocks out Majin Cold, this whole thing would be like sweeping dust under the carpet, except with maybe Majin Cooler's augmented form, who should be around Android 16 level now. Now the main question is if he's going to let Ginyu transform, even if it was unintentional. The only way I see this happening is if a couple of mooks or just Frieza and Cooler duo restrain Piccolo. If Piccolo's gonna fight all of them at once then he's righteously screwed, so that's why I think the mooks will just have a powerup of "one" tier, Piccolo can curbstomp them all if he wants, but then his main focus/challenge should be the Frost family and preventing Ginyu from transforming, or picking them out one by one before they wise up and gang on him. Then again, there's U9 to help out for the mooks if that's all they can really handle in a gang fight rather than one on one like they've assumed to have been going at in their world. Fingers crossed!!! So much interaction is expected from the Humans when they realize this Pickle is the reincarnated Demon Pickle who had a change of heart because he cared about a young half monkey boy.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Nov 3, 2017 22:25:16 GMT
Think about it though- Maybe you get boosted the same amount with the majin boost (Depending on your inner strength/potential). It's just far more noticeable when you're weaker. I mean Spopovich was an untrained body-builder looking dude, thanks to Babidi's majinisation he learned how to fly, shoot Ki blasts and was unnaturally resilient (To the point where he could basically shrug off deathblows).
Vegeta 'only' went up a tier and could basically do the same things better- Got faster,stronger and got lightning in his aura- Spopovich was almost completely unrecognizable from his pre-majin self and in comparison gained many more powers. As for Cidel she was clearly far above a 'normal' human, but i highly doubt she could of matched Roshi back in the DB days, or at the very least she sure didn't have comparable feats.
Piccolo should be able to take everyone there except for Coldyu. I think Frieza and Cooler are basic SS tier so bumping them up one tier put them at the Android tier, still easy pickings for a Cell games (roughly) tier Piccolo. The mooks will only be trouble if they attack effectively and provide distractions for the stronger people. If we see Coldyu transform to his biggest Augmentation form + the majin boost i'd say that would make him equal to initial perfect Cell, which will allow him to beat Piccolo single handedly. It just depends on how smart Piccolo plays this
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 22:31:38 GMT
VoidSlayerWell, Piccolo isn't like Goku or Vegeta who would definitely wait till he would have transformed just so that they could "fight him at his best", so I'm sure Piccolo would do the smart thing and eliminate the Majin Cold before he becomes a severe problem, since due to the Majinization process' bump-up-one-tier thing, he would be around Super Vegeta's level in his final form.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Nov 3, 2017 23:13:42 GMT
VoidSlayer Well, Piccolo isn't like Goku or Vegeta who would definitely wait till he would have transformed just so that they could "fight him at his best", so I'm sure Piccolo would do the smart thing and eliminate the Majin Cold before he becomes a severe problem, since due to the Majinization process' bump-up-one-tier thing, he would be around Super Vegeta's level in his final form. You mean the form he's in now, as opposed to his augmentation forms? Piccolo's always touted as the 'smart' fighter, so lets see if he lives up to his reputation.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 23:29:09 GMT
VoidSlayer Well, Piccolo isn't like Goku or Vegeta who would definitely wait till he would have transformed just so that they could "fight him at his best", so I'm sure Piccolo would do the smart thing and eliminate the Majin Cold before he becomes a severe problem, since due to the Majinization process' bump-up-one-tier thing, he would be around Super Vegeta's level in his final form. You mean the form he's in now, as opposed to his augmentation forms? Piccolo's always touted as the 'smart' fighter, so lets see if he lives up to his reputation. Woops, my mistake. I mean his current form. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Nov 4, 2017 0:26:33 GMT
You mean the form he's in now, as opposed to his augmentation forms? Piccolo's always touted as the 'smart' fighter, so lets see if he lives up to his reputation. Woops, my mistake. I mean his current form. Thanks for pointing that out. No worries my man. Either way even if he is Super Vegeta level in his current form, he'd still have to transform to be any kind of credible threat to Piccolo. Cell Jr (roughly) Piccolo >> Super Vegeta
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Post by fooshin on Nov 4, 2017 0:56:25 GMT
Just to add a couple of thoughts to the Hercule debate:
One is in general I like to think that the farther back you go in the story, the less "realistic" and the more exaggerated the feats become relative to the power level. Essentially tori retcons those feats as he's "writing by the seat of his pants." Goku at the beginning had a pl of 10 and could easily lift a car above his head and take a bullet to the head. Villains could do hugely destructive acts with relatively tiny pl's compared with later in the series. As it goes if someone with a pl of a few hundred could obliterate a city then someone with a pl of 1 billion would struggle to not destroy the planet just with a sneeze. You pretty much have to take all the things that happened early on with a grain of salt and not try to extrapolate some giant power scale formula based on any of that.
Also regarding Satan himself, I'm not so sure about him being untrained in ki, he has a martial arts background and as such I think there's the possibility that although he doesn't possess the "whole/complete" understanding and usage of it that the z warriors have, that isn't to say that he doesn't at least flirt with some of the aspects of it and draw some super human power from it even if it's in an incorrect/flawed manner. Certainly he never showed any great strengths in the manga but considering he was legitamitly the strongest fighter and considering the level of all the strong "normal" humans goku fought early on it seems reasonable that he could have fit in with the red ribbon generals with a pl of a hundred or so imo.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 4, 2017 1:21:31 GMT
Bold: Jokes aside, why did people even start debating about Videl's power level when it's clearly evident that she would never even match the likes of Nam, let alone King Piccolo. The original question was about whether Spopovich's Majin Boost could bump him up more than a single Tier. The weaker you are, the more of a boost you experience supposedly. Vegeta's boost was only "one tier" and so, the Frieza force mooks could've either been upped enough to pose a challenge to Piccolo and he fights all of them one on one rather than a simple brawl. Then the reason Spopovich's boost was defended to jump more than a single tier was because Videl was assumed to be "~2+ tiers higher than the average human" thanks to learning Ki flight. However, since Ki control didn't have a complete correlation to raw power, this assumption should've been proven false and case closed. But then there was a huge tangent and here we are now, overthinking the "Intro to a new Magical Threat" when it was clear that "a normal human shouldn't have done all those feats, something is wrong with him!" @fegget117 the below are my actual reasons for thinking that Videl and Satan had higher PLs comparable to medium tier DB characters (pre-Z standards obviously): Actually you are wrong about that. I thought Videl's and Satan's martial arts skills warranted them having rather abnormally high PLs for normal humans that never trained in the ways of manipulating their Ki to access superhuman abilities and fighting skills. I also thought the fact that Videl could fly for hours on end without needed to rest backed this up that her PL was comparable to King Piccolo's, but you and others made a convincing argument to me that I was giving Hercule and Videl too much credit when I said Hercule was likely on par with Roshi's PL and Videl on par with King Piccolo's PL. So I came to a more logical conclusion that Hercule was on par with Ranfan's PL of 80 and Videl on par with Nam's PL of 100. Though I wasn't saying Videl would be evenly matched with Nam since his mastery of Ki manipulation and martial arts make him a far superior fighter to her who only is a novice Ki manipulator and master of martial arts even beyond her father's level of power and martial arts mastery. Below I've included some stat charts for my final conclusions about Majin Spopovich, Nam, Videl, Hercule, & Ranfan as fighters. Majin SpopovichPL: 250 (around King Piccolo's PL)Ki Control Skills: Intermediate Martial Arts Skills: Intermediate Strength: 10/10 Endurance: 13/10 Speed: 6/10 Flight: Yes Ki Blasts: Basic NamPL: 100 Ki Control Skills: Expert Martial Arts Skills: Expert Strength: 9/10 Endurance: 8/10 Speed: 9/10 Flight: No (can jump really high tho)Ki Blasts: No VidelPL: 100 Ki Control Skills: Novice Martial Arts Skills: Expert Strength: 8/10 Endurance: 10/10 Speed: 8/10 Flight: Yes Ki Blasts: Weak & Uncontrollable HerculePL: 80 Ki Control Skills: Non-Existent Martial Arts Skills: Expert Strength: 7/10 Endurance: 5/10 Speed: 6/10 Flight: Hell no (can't even jump higher than the average human)Ki Blasts: Hell no RanfanPL: 80 Ki Control Skills: Noob (that friction punch probably uses very minimal Ki control)Martial Arts Skills: Intermediate Strength: 5/10 Endurance: 5/10 Speed: 5/10 Flight: No Ki Blasts: No Maybe I should've created stat charts like that from the beginning to make my point more understood. I hope that clears things up and I think with that will wrap up this discussion. If anyone wants to continue the discussion with me, then one of us can make a new thread for it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2017 4:17:41 GMT
Kor SaiyajinkamiYeah, maybe you should have. Although I still think that we should make another thread for this, since it doesn't exactly relate to the latest DBM comic page. If you want me to, I'll make it. Or you can too, if you want. Videl may not be able to match Nam at all except for the power level digits. Nam gained that power through physical, mental and possibly mystical training on top of being a very experienced fighter who battled superhuman martial artists, whereas Videl only had basic flight lessons and can create energy blasts which she has absolutely no control over, on top of being a martial artist who only fought crime. Sure, Nam cannot do what Videl can but has decades of training under his belt, while Videl seemed like a person who took martial arts as seriously as one who would take a hobby.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 4, 2017 4:26:49 GMT
Just to add a couple of thoughts to the Hercule debate: One is in general I like to think that the farther back you go in the story, the less "realistic" and the more exaggerated the feats become relative to the power level. Essentially tori retcons those feats as he's "writing by the seat of his pants." Goku at the beginning had a pl of 10 and could easily lift a car above his head and take a bullet to the head. Villains could do hugely destructive acts with relatively tiny pl's compared with later in the series. As it goes if someone with a pl of a few hundred could obliterate a city then someone with a pl of 1 billion would struggle to not destroy the planet just with a sneeze. You pretty much have to take all the things that happened early on with a grain of salt and not try to extrapolate some giant power scale formula based on any of that. Also regarding Satan himself, I'm not so sure about him being untrained in ki, he has a martial arts background and as such I think there's the possibility that although he doesn't possess the "whole/complete" understanding and usage of it that the z warriors have, that isn't to say that he doesn't at least flirt with some of the aspects of it and draw some super human power from it even if it's in an incorrect/flawed manner. Certainly he never showed any great strengths in the manga but considering he was legitamitly the strongest fighter and considering the level of all the strong "normal" humans goku fought early on it seems reasonable that he could have fit in with the red ribbon generals with a pl of a hundred or so imo. I don't even think this a problem on Satan's part, but more of fantasy era of DB and scific era of DB just being very different in tone and in some cases having different rules somewhat that go with those two different tones. Ki training was never a separate or a different part of training. Goku, Yamecha, and Krillin all learned the Kamehamaha on their own without Roshi telling them or showing them how to manipulate ki whatsoever. Really in DB it is treated as a given that fighters training will automatically increase their ki and learn how to use it. My memory might be foggy, but I don't think until Kami and Popo that emphasis on ki became an actual thing. It was all treated as if it was the same thing. A character trained, they got faster and stronger. They all had access to these different techniques and abilities. With the scific oriented era it became more complicated. Ki training being harder got introduced. Hercule who is a strong and experienced fighter who did train hard at one point before he got so strong that other people couldn't compete (except for his kid) he didn't gain ki abilities like Goku and his friends. If we're honest none of them really did anything to special to develop their ki abilities that we saw in DB. We could argue when they trained with Korin and Kami they did, but not really before anything else. Roshi certainly didn't teach them anything special, which is what worried Krillin when they competed in 21st tournament before he saw the results. It is just one of those oddities that we have to accept. Satan and humans can't use ki well because they didn't train the same way as Goku and his friends, even though in early DB it was a given that any fighter who trained hard enough could access their ki and produce super human feats. The arguments on feats is both fair and unfair. Technically it is the same series, but we have to acknowledge the changes made as it continued and the consistency just wasn't as strong as some later Shonen works.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2017 5:06:54 GMT
I have decided to move all the Hercule/Videl PL related posts into a new thread. I hope everyone is okay with this.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 4, 2017 5:23:34 GMT
I have decided to move all the Hercule/Videl PL related posts into a new thread. I hope everyone is okay with this. I am perfectly fine with that and I disagree that Videl couldn't match Nam's PL 100. Ranfan had no knowledge of Ki whatsoever or very extremely limited knowledge of it if you count the fact that she could create a heated punch via some sorta friction and her PL 80 is pretty high for someone who can't manipulate Ki at will effectively and efficiently. Videl can fly for hours on end and it's been shown that flying requires a lot of Ki especially by early DB standards and not at all by DBZ/DBS (and GT for that matter) standards. When characters are tapped out on Ki, it's been shown at least in Z and maybe even DB (not sure, don't have DB down to memory as well as I do Z) that flight becomes extremely difficult and downright even impossible if your Ki is pretty much 0. This reason alone is probably why Master Roshi has never bothered to try to learn how to do it because he'd rather use his limited Ki reserves for actual fighting and techniques and not waste too much on flying battles. To be honest, that is also part of the reason that I initially though Videl to be around King Piccolo's PL, since she can fly for a long time without needing to rest, so she must have at least a decent amount of Ki in her fuel tanks so to speak.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 5, 2017 16:29:11 GMT
I have decided to move all the Hercule/Videl PL related posts into a new thread. I hope everyone is okay with this. I never posted anything related to Hercule VS Videl PL and I'm pretty sure a post of mine is in this thread though. git gud newbie!You responded to one of Axalon's posts that was part of the discussion so he moved that post along with all the others.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Nov 5, 2017 16:50:51 GMT
You responded to one of Axalon's posts that was part of the discussion so he moved that post along with all the others. I know lol. That post had nothing to do with Hercule or Videl's power level/strength though, which is why I joked around with @fegget117 about it. True, but it did have to do with his feats and in these determining PLs discussions for characters who haven't been given official PLs by Toriyama and Toei, then feats are pretty much all you can use to determine the rough vicinity of a character's PL. Anyways speaking of their PLs, what do you think of my post with the stat charts for Majin Spopovich, Nam, Videl, Hercule, & Ranfan. Maybe I should've included King Piccolo in there since Majin Spopovich I've concluded is actually probably around King Piccolo's level and not Raditz's level.
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Post by Eldagusto on Jan 28, 2018 12:57:10 GMT
How much do you think Videl and Hercule could lift? Just curious.
Do you guys think by the time of the Tournament with Buu that Videl could bench more then her dad? I think she was peaking and over all was stronger then her dad/could maybe hit harder, but I think in several ways Satan was likely physically stronger. I think a lot of it was Videls spirit was growing while Satan's peaked and he was on the decline. They both trained like Athletes, but the minute Videl started becoming a true warrior and training in Spiritual aspects of Martial arts I think a lot improved with her but her physical strength wasn't growing yet as she was expanding her technique and enlightenment roster.
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Post by TransHumanMarissa on Jul 2, 2018 18:45:56 GMT
Ah Videl and her power level.. Often a point of contention, and for fairly good reasons, We have very little to work with here, as the only frame of reference to her power is spopavich which.. Doesn't help, since he in turn is only really compared to his past self, and Mr.Satan.
As usual, Feel free to correct me if I get something wrong, but here is my take on it. Its clear she is a fairly talented fighter, but her total lack of knowledge on Ki holds her back. In fact, this lack of knowledge on Ki implies that she is at most on level with the early dragon ball, before Ki became so prominent, Like Nam.
However, Her ability to quickly learn flight, which was once an advanced Crane hermit technique, (Air walking!) Implies that she may be deceptively powerful, Since high power warriors seem able to learn flight more easily then low power fighters, (such as the frieza empire goons, who seemed to lack a deep martial arts style, but still knew how to fly proficiently.) To the point its quite possible Videl May have some form of 'latent power'. (Reincarnation, perhaps? since I doubt she got that from her father.) And if she does have some latent power, its pretty difficult to pinpoint her power, since Gohan Proves even a totally Ki untrained, or even martial arts untrained child could potentally tap into large amounts of power. (Though to be fair, he was a notedly unusual case. Videl, even if unusually talanted, is not that strong.)
The only other wrinkle in this I can think of is the Majinization process. Depending on how you view the boost, could drastically alter how you see Videl's power.. after all, she kept up with Spopovitch, and even 'killed' him, before he began to wail on her, but thats hardly impressive if he was boosted from 'normal guy' to 'maybe early db level' but much more impressive if you assume the boost is more additive and less a percentage thing. (especially since vegeta seemed impressed.)
Edit: Ah, forgot to delve into Hercule/Mr.Satan. To be honest though, there isnt much to say for him. He doesn't seem that strong, aside from winning the new Budokai tourneys which could imply he is strong in theearly DB sense, but considering the 'fighter culture' that existed in Dragon ball seems to have almost entirely evaporated, Or at least decided to stay out of tourneys after the destruction of the original ones, it seems like a stretch to say he is too strong. It would be really helpful for discussions about these two if someone like King Chappa, Or Nam, Had fought in one of the recent tournaments.
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Post by xizziano on May 10, 2020 21:56:09 GMT
Axalon, Solus, The Retro Kakarotto fine maybe she isn't 3x as strong as her father. I kinda just pulled that outta my ass I'll admit. Maybe a part of me still hates Hercule Satan for stealing my boi Gohan's accomplishment of defeating Cell from him and so I wanted to believe that she was ridiculously stronger than her father because she's a badass for a normal human and my boi Gohan's wife. As for the buses thing, I figured it was filler, but I didn't feel like checking either since I didn't think it really mattered in the long run. Yeah and I guess that it's likely that most of Videl the crime fighter scenes were filler too, right? Anyways I still think she's stronger than her father unless Gohan's comment about her being stronger even before the Ki training was also filler. And while it's true that the buses feat was filler and weighed more than Goku felt comfortable moving around with on his body unless he went SSJ, wearing 40 tons and moving around without difficulty is different than pulling 66 tons a few feet. I still think Satan is at least around Ranfan's level even if all the evidence I have to try to prove it is non-canon content, because as normal humans that can't manipulate Ki at all go he is a pretty strong and talented fighter. So maybe Videl is only a little bit stronger than her father, so that at least puts her around Nam's PL of 100 if her father is at least around a PL of 80. Idk if this was mentioned or not but it's been revealed that Videl has had training long before her ki training with Gohan, its what allowed her to fight crime in the city. Also Gohan himself said Videl was a lot stronger than her father. So she's at least 2x as strong as he is if not 3x.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on May 10, 2020 22:33:36 GMT
Axalon , Solus , The Retro Kakarotto fine maybe she isn't 3x as strong as her father. I kinda just pulled that outta my ass I'll admit. Maybe a part of me still hates Hercule Satan for stealing my boi Gohan's accomplishment of defeating Cell from him and so I wanted to believe that she was ridiculously stronger than her father because she's a badass for a normal human and my boi Gohan's wife. As for the buses thing, I figured it was filler, but I didn't feel like checking either since I didn't think it really mattered in the long run. Yeah and I guess that it's likely that most of Videl the crime fighter scenes were filler too, right? Anyways I still think she's stronger than her father unless Gohan's comment about her being stronger even before the Ki training was also filler. And while it's true that the buses feat was filler and weighed more than Goku felt comfortable moving around with on his body unless he went SSJ, wearing 40 tons and moving around without difficulty is different than pulling 66 tons a few feet. I still think Satan is at least around Ranfan's level even if all the evidence I have to try to prove it is non-canon content, because as normal humans that can't manipulate Ki at all go he is a pretty strong and talented fighter. So maybe Videl is only a little bit stronger than her father, so that at least puts her around Nam's PL of 100 if her father is at least around a PL of 80. Idk if this was mentioned or not but it's been revealed that Videl has had training long before her ki training with Gohan, its what allowed her to fight crime in the city. Also Gohan himself said Videl was a lot stronger than her father. So she's at least 2x as strong as he is if not 3x. I wonder which classic DB fighters she'd be able to defeat, knowing how to fly and all (which was only restricted to Tien and his dudes, and King Piccolo).
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Post by godjacob on Jun 2, 2021 4:38:43 GMT
Videl is a sad story, she picked up flying faster than many characters in the OG Dragon Ball Goku included and could've been a showcase for what Earthlings can do when given trainer from post SS characters. But Spopovich breaks her and Gohan beds her and that is that.
And I don't want to hear the argument she was too weak to contribute to things. Mr. Satan is weaker and arguably saved the Earth.
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