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Post by Son Pan on Sept 20, 2016 2:12:24 GMT
I assumed in new DB material retconned if Gohan stops training he lost the power up. In Battle of the Gods he tried to fight Beerus without going SS, which leads me to assume he still had it (not to mention he looked like Mystic/Ultimate Gohan), but in the next film Gohan was back to needing Super Saiyan and admitted he stopped training so his power drop so low he wasn't sure he can go SS1.
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 20, 2016 2:19:18 GMT
What are your guys' thoughts on this?
In GT and Super? No. It's a mix between Toriyama/Toei forgetting, and them wanting Gohan to be weaker.
Old Kai said his magic:
--Would raise Gohan's power beyond his normal limits
--Could be accessed like a transformation, which is why we have the powering-up scene
Old Kai didn't say it would:
--last forever,
--be Gohan's normal state all the time, or
--prevent him from going Super Saiyan ever again. (But why would he want to?)
He also didn't say if that was Gohan's absolute limit in power and that training wouldn't help him any more.
Considering that Old Kai let people know that Potara fusion lasts forever, I think he would've mentioned to Gohan if the upgrade was going to fade away eventually. It also seems a bit pointless to do a 20-hour magic session if it has to be renewed every few years or so.
If you want my opinion on what the upgrade does...
My headcanon is that Old Kai's magic does two separate things:
1) unlock any hidden power that you might've missed, and
2) make it so that you can fight at your max without stress on your body.
Goku, Vegeta, and anyone else would benefit from effect #2, but wouldn't get much stronger from #1, since they don't have a lot of hidden power to begin with and have probably unlocked most of it anyway through training.
Gohan, though...from the very beginning Gohan was supposed to have this big ol' amount of hidden power. As a kid, he could only use it when angry. Guru was able to unlock a little of that potential on Namek, and Gohan learned how to control a big chunk of it when he went SS2. I see the Old Kai upgrade as unlocking all of Gohan's hidden power. I believe that Gohan's ultimate upgrade can't be Gohan's limit, since that goes against the theme of Dragon Ball that people can always improve. In my opinion, Gohan can still get stronger, it's just that he has to do it "fairly" from this point on--he can't rely on his hidden potential giving him enormous jumps anymore, and will have to train like Goku and Vegeta.
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Post by Jaquan on Sept 20, 2016 7:18:49 GMT
Well I always thought the reason of Mystic power up fading on Gohan is relatively simple. Too much upkeep cost. Gohan received all the power one would traditionally unlock through training and I don't think it would/should be possible to just keep it without training. And that's something he doesn't do as that would mean neglecting his job and his family. I do firmly believe this sort of power up would wear of eventually on anyone unless they increase their training regiment to uphold it. When it comes to Gohan it happens faster because the difference between his normal and awakened state is just too big.
And just a thought... Would it feel fair for Gohan to keep his mystic state forever? I think it would highly downplay the whole "working for your strength" theme in DB if one of three strongest (and by the end of DBZ THE STRONGEST) guys in the universe was just "given" his powers. And as I mentioned numerous times I do think Gohan made the right choice.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 22, 2016 3:34:09 GMT
I think the working hard for strength theme wasn't a hard pressed theme and at times was barely enforced at all. Power ups had become a thing as far back as King Piccolo where Goku got to drink the real Holy Water when two arcs ago Korin scoffed at the idea and said the training to get the fake one was what make Goku strong. Despite Vegeta being portrayed as the poster boy for hard work he only started training after Namek. Before that he just abused the hell out zenkai for a lot of unearned power gains. Goku at least was training in addition to zenkai boost on the way there (even the manga straight up says Goku is ignorant to zenkai effect and his training wasn't what was increasing his power, but healing from his injuries were). Personally I don't think Gohan keeping the power up would have betrayed theme simply because the theme had already been betrayed as far back as King Piccolo.
In relation to Gohan I don't think training or powering up to awaken his hidden power is really any different. Gohan is a natural talent, with enormous potential, and hidden power. Training or no training he will receive larger gain easier than other characters. He is very much like DBM's version of Bra. People try to deny it or claim Bra being strong because of her genes is stupid its pretty much why Gohan(and Saiyans in general) is so strong. At the start of the Android arc Gohan was weaker than the other Saiyans, Androids, Cell, and probably Freeza. 8 months in the Time Chamber training with Goku he virtually surpassed all of them bar Cell's perfect form, until he unlocked SS2. That is a insane increase no matter how you look at it and you can't really claim Gohan trained harder than all of those individuals in that time frame. There is never going to be a scenario where Gohan's hidden power/potential isn't a factor in his power, the same is true of Goku, Vegeta, or Freeza. Old Kai basically just brought it out faster.
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Post by whatever on Sept 28, 2016 1:24:58 GMT
King Piccolo said his power is infinite, which makes him stronger than any DBS/GT god tier. Goku could defeat him because he
drank the water and his power also became infinite. After that, it's obviously the water's unlock potential wore off and Goku
got back to his 22nd TB level. That's why, in the anime, he lost to Mutaito.
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