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Post by SSJ4 GOD Multi on Dec 6, 2018 22:53:58 GMT
Boy oh boy, hello all! So this is something I've been thinking of for a while and I'm going to make a topic on it for a video. But do you think that Gohan was always a pacifist from the beginning to the end of dragon ball? I know it may sound like a dumb question but think about it. During the Cell Games, Gohan said he doesn't like to fight and he didn't want to kill Cell. I understand that Gohan may not like to fight like his father and only wanted to kill when there is no other option but this moment felt off to me. Before the Cell Games, Gohan never showed any signs of hating or disliking to fight, every scene we see him when involving fighting, Gohan seems happy or even enjoying it.
He never refused to train or seemed annoyed that he had to do it, if he really disliked to fight then he'd refuse at any moment. Also, Gohan not wanting to kill seemed weird too for me. I can understand he was afraid because he was the last line of defense and didn't believe he was as strong as Goku said he was. He always thought his father was the greatest man alive and would save them but now it was him, all alone to save the entire world. But Gohan has been in situations where he was the last line of defense and he didn't run from his opponents, he didn't try giving them a speech, he at least fought with everything he had. Gohan fought against Vegeta when both Krillin and Goku were incapacitated, he fought against Recoome until his neck was broken, and he fought Frieza TWICE. When seeing Gohan just avoid Cell and refuse to fight was just out of character imo.
Also since Gohan never showed ANY signs that he disliked fighting or hated it then how could Goku know this before sending his son out to save the world?! If someone never told you they hated something then how would you ever find out? Goku assumed his son liked to fight just as much as he did because Gohan always looked to have enjoyed it or wanted to do it on his own. He went off to Namek on his own without anyone telling him to do so. Gohan chose to train for three years for the androids without Goku telling him he was and Gohan chose to train in the time chamber. Gohan never showed signs of hating to fight so how would his father know about it. Goku knows his son doesn't want to be a martial artist, he knew at least that much asking Gohan if he wanted to be a scholar when he was older. Goku at least knew his son didn't want to have a career in fighting but just assumed that he enjoyed to fight just like he did because he never seemed to hate it either. I honestly feel like this sudden way of thinking from him was for AT to diverge Gohan from being just a Goku clone.
I mean I'm sure there is a clear explanation for all of this and I pretty sure I know the answers but I'm honestly asking do you believe that Gohan's sudden pacifistic attitude when encountering Cell was a bit out of character and came out of nowhere or was it done good enough?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 23:01:46 GMT
He went to college/uni so it's no surprise that the leftie agenda poisoned his warrior mind.
edit: wait, I think I have grossly misread something here...... meh, I've made my bed.....
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Post by SSJ4 GOD Multi on Dec 6, 2018 23:11:12 GMT
He went to college/uni so it's no surprise that the leftie agenda poisoned his warrior mind.
edit: wait, I think I have grossly misread something here...... meh, I've made my bed.....
Good to see you never changed lol
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 0:02:18 GMT
To piggy back on what @thatguy said, yea, he showed a desire to train, but that was primarily a byproduct of wanting to spend time with his dad, not so much the training or getting stronger itself.
After Goku dies all of that "desire" is thrown out the window until his old man rocks up again. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!!
For me, and I'm sure many others here, Gohan's character development goes to shit after Cell. Some can argue that he is playing the field, ie: doing what the parent wants but yea, AT was all over the shop with Gohan due to not knowing wtf to do with him and pressure from both his editor and vocal fans.
edit: Oh and that sexy mofo is The Jim in ALL his Glory, with Our Lord and Savior being the only entity in existence capable of setting a finer example of such Glory, so pleaase, do try to contain your orgasm. Might even give myself a Santa hat for chrissy day.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 0:07:27 GMT
I agree it was a little out of character since I don't think it was ever hinted at before. He was never hesitant to fight in order to protect people (well he was against Nappa at first but that was more due to fear than being pacifist).
I guess it was an attempt to give Gohan something to overcome in that final battle to add tension because we could easily skip over the scenes with Gohan being a pacifist without missing out on anything important. Gohan could've gone all out in FPSSJ, Cell powers up and pushes him into a corner/threatens his friends, then Gohan turns SSJ2.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 0:15:24 GMT
Given the fact that Gohan would go quite literally blind with rage and the sheer difference in power levels since he had last done so I still think it was more Gohan being scared of what his power could accidentally do to those he cared about and the planet itmself more than him being a pacifist.
Pacifists don't fight, at all. Well, true hardcore pacifists anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 0:23:07 GMT
To piggy back on what @thatguy said, yea, he showed a desire to train, but that was primarily a byproduct of wanting to spend time with his dad, not so much the training or getting stronger itself.
After Goku dies all of that "desire" is thrown out the window until his old man rocks up again. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!!
For me, and I'm sure many others here, Gohan's character development goes to shit after Cell. Some can argue that he is playing the field, ie: doing what the parent wants but yea, AT was all over the shop with Gohan due to not knowing wtf to do with him and pressure from both his editor and vocal fans. edit: Oh and that sexy mofo is The Jim in ALL his Glory, with Our Lord and Savior being the only entity in existence capable of setting a finer example of such Glory, so pleaase, do try to contain your orgasm. Might even give myself a Santa hat for chrissy day.
Psh, as if I have a choice in the matter. Besides you're about an hour too late on that.Look at him tryin to hide his multigasms. So sweet and innocent.
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 7, 2018 6:34:42 GMT
I wouldn’t say Gohan ever looked like he enjoyed fighting like Goku did in Dragon Ball. All the arcs we saw him in before Cell had him fight because he had no choice to or not wanting to be a burden to the others. Whereas with Goku we see signs of him enjoying a tough fight with a smirk or telling his opponent he was having a good time. For Gohan it was always a desire to protect others. When he fought Nappa it was tonmake up for not attacking him earlier then to get revenge for Piccolo. When they fought Vegeta it was to help his dad and later he got a speech to believe in himself. On Namek it was to help Dende and Krillin for a lot of it. He always trained and fought for someone else and Goku I think missed that because he assumed Gohan did it out of love.
With Cell it wasn’t just Gohan suddenly became a pacifist, but also the realization that his dad threw him in deep end and expected him to rage on command, which was also a bad plan. Gohan raged out when others got hurt or died but never really when he was in personal danger. Goku failed to realize this when he came up with his plan. Gohan unable to get unleash his rage boost and up against Cell who he was fighting before he told Cell what Goku’s plan was and incidentally kind of also voiced his dislike for fighting, which makes sense because in the last four years of his life he has seen friends dying, genocide, and his father choosing the spirit of competition over his personal safety when Goku gave Cell a senzu bean.
I think there could have been a better way to handed Gohan hates fighting plot sure, but there is also enough there that Cell fight made sense. There seems to be this misconception that Gohan didn’t bother fighting and only got mad once 16 died when Gohan’s rage boost was always more for watching others get hurt before and he had never trained to harness his anger as a weapon, which Goku should have done so he could have used it on command when the time came because as we saw it was a very unreliable weapon since Goku was just counting on Cell pushing Gohan too far. Gohan did fight against Cell even before he went SS2, but again trying to beat on Gohan to bring the anger out wasn’t how his rage boost worked in the past. Cell attacking the others was the right way to do it. Gohan was getting angier as the onslaught went on, but it was a slow burn that 16’s death was the last straw. Before then Gohan even crowd and begged Cell to stop mostlys because he said he was trying to get mad and do what he wanted but he couldn’t do it on command, which again is fear because Gohan never bothered to train to harness his anger.
There were a lot of factors going on with Cell. Gohan spelling out that he hated fighting and trying to talk Cell down is a weird strategy and I doubt Toriyama put much thought into it beyond when he was drawing the chapters during the Cell Games, but he did always intend for Gohan to be motivated to protect people rather than a genuine love for fighting which can be seen even in Gohan’s earliest appearances. Goku not realizing his son didn’t like fighting also works because Goku never realized how Gohan’s anger worked, which let him misjudge how to handle Cell which shows Goku messed up as a parent. Cell expecting Gohan to get mad enough to harness his hidden power wasn’t something Gohan could do at the time. Cell creating the Cell Juniors to attack the gang was the right method, but sadly without properly training to harness his anger just made Gohan mostly powerless against Cell during the fight before he went SS2. Trying to talk Cell down made sense since the kid realized from their fight that Cell was superior to normal level and couldn’t reach his hidden power on his own yet as oppose to Gohan simply refusing to get mad. Like Jim said there was probably some fear of what type of damage Gohan could do if he flew into another blind rage with the level he was at now. Even Gohan’s anger finally manifested it was a tranquil fury were he could think and use his lower careful as oppose to the brief yet blind fury we would normally see. Now had Goku told Gohan his plans and spent the last 9 days with Gohan to try to harness his anger things probably would have gone down differently in the fight and Gohan could have gone SS2 on command, but Goku played coy and figured the spontaneous approach was best. We saw the results.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2018 6:44:38 GMT
/thread
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Post by Ashanark on Dec 7, 2018 21:51:13 GMT
Toriyama often develops his characters in inconsistent ways. Vegeta was originally a very shrewd individual who didn’t give a flying fig about what he had to do to win, which is very different from the later pride-obsessed “I won’t accept help even if it destroys the universe” fool people remember him being. Something similar happens with Gohan. I’ve never liked Pacifist Gohan. When I say "Pacifist Gohan" I mean Gohan as defined by Piccolo and 16's speeches at the Cell Games, a Gohan who hates fighting and hurting. I don't like this partly because it’s a shonen where the good guys are regularly going up against pure-evil beings (there are even ways to confirm it!) which need to be killed, and partly it’s because it’s inconsistent with his earlier characterization. Gohan wasn't a fighter in the same way Goku was, or even the way the human Z-Fighters were, but pre-Cell Games there was nothing to indicate he disliked fighting.
Namek Saga Gohan has always been the definitive Gohan personality to me. He had his moments of fear but on the whole he didn’t screw around and had the moxie of a dachshund: he would never back down from a fight that needed to be fought. This's a guy who would've mashed Guldo to a pulp if he hadn't gotten paralyzed and--after a moment of hesitation--fully committed to potentially beating his "dad" to death when Ginyu swapped with Goku. So I don’t really understand why he’d hesitate against Cell, a creature who’d blasted a hole through Piccolo, nearly killed Tien, had eaten thousands of people and was going to blow up the planet if he wasn’t stopped.
I could imagine Gohan thinking he wasn’t strong enough to beat Cell, but the Pacifist Gohan development was a weird call by Toriyama. You can tell Toriyama didn’t really think it through or was super committed to it because this pacifist angle never shows up again--he swaps it out for Gohan being a slacker/posing loser in the Buu saga onward.
Your opinion may vary, but if you asked me to sum up Gohan, I would say: -- He likes being a hero; he enjoys validation and is eager to please. (Unlike Goku, who couldn’t care less what people think.) He doesn’t seek for glory but I think he finds satisfaction looking back on, say, Namek saga and knowing he played a role there. -- He’s a social person. (Unlike Goku, who is okay training by himself.) -- He gets no enjoyment from fighting; he fights only when necessary and (except when drunk on power) gets it over with as soon as possible. (Unlike Goku, who doesn’t need to be explained.) Where do you think Future Trunks learned his no-nonsense attitude from? -- He is a proactive doer of good. (Unlike Goku, who is happy to just train and train and train.) This is shown in Namek saga when he rescued Dende. I think DBM tapped into this when they had Gohan figure out how to help Bra. -- He’s probably the most contemplative Z-Fighter. (Unlike Goku, who lives in the moment.) -- He’s the only Saiyan and possibly Z-Fighter who I would really call principled. While Goku caused a lot of people to become better (Yamcha, Tien, Vegeta) it was more a side-effect of Goku beating them and having a “I don’t want to kill you because I want to fight you again” mindset. Gohan seems to have opinions on right and wrong, and not only did Piccolo become a good guy solely because of Gohan, but Gohan was also the only Z-Fighter who considered reasoning with Fat Buu (at least before Supreme Kai shot it down), which in hindsight probably would’ve worked, based on what happened with Mr. Satan.
So as much as I liked how TFS’s Android 16 called Gohan a coward, I don’t think that’s consistent with pre-Cell Games Gohan. Pacifist Gohan is certainly a unique trait but from a consistency standpoint I don't like it. To be perfectly frank I bet the only reason DBM has Gohan be a scholar post-EoZ is because Toriyama did it and they don't want to contradict the original manga. All these years later I still think Future Gohan is the most accurate evolution of the character Toriyama wrote up until the Cell Games: understanding that the safety of the earth is too important for him to get sloppy, and having no hesitations about fighting if it's needed.
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 8, 2018 12:11:28 GMT
I don't think Gohan was a pacifist at all. I don't think that was what Toriyama was going for. I think there is an argument in Abridge that is what they were going for their character. Gohan's issue was lack of confidence that he could actually be stronger than his dad and beat Cell and not being able to rage out enough to harness his hidden power to defeat Cell on command. The lack of confidence is consistent with Gohan's character in the previous characterization. We've seen Gohan lack confidence in his own skill, but what people overlook in the Cell Games is that despite feeling insecure in his own abilities is that Gohan still went out to fight Cell and tried his hardest before he realized Goku's plan was. That is consistent with the character and continues to show his growth as he is able to fight even if he isn't sure he can win, which he learned back in the Saiyan arc. At this point in the story the gang weren't really sure there was a SS2 transformation, since they were under the impression that the other SS forms were less effective as the first one and went back to strengthening the original SS1 form. That is important, because Gohan isn't trying to reach a new SS level during that fight and isn't doing the same visulization training he did in the chamber to get mad enough to transform to the next level.
Gohan has to get mad to harness his hidden power. He has really only gotten that mad when someone else is getting hurting. I know I said that before, but I really want to reiterate that because I don't think people look at how Gohan's past rage boost and compare them to how Goku tried to harness them. When expected to do it on command Gohan failed, which lead to his trying to talk Cell down. That was a position he had never been in before. He has never been able to rage on command and asked to defeat the big villain, because he is the last hope. He did what he thought was best to try to end things. I think if Gohan was closer to Cell's power at SS1 then he wouldn't have tried that at all and just did his best to beat him and possibly kill him. I can see why he would try to find some humanity within Cell. It's not even that far fetched since he has seen Vegeta has calmed down (aside from Goku he was the only other one who seemed to think Vegeta changed. Gohan was the one who thought Vegeta was no longer malicious unlike the others) and knows Piccolo's past from his dad and how well he changed. There is some semblance of reason to why he would try to talk the monster down.
After Cell I wouldn't say Gohan is a pacifist either. I wouldn't even say Gohan's development was inconsistent with his prior character development. After experiencing a long period of peace Gohan stopped train and pursued other things. That is really more forgivable at this point because Gohan had never experienced such a long period of peace before and with no new threats emerging that it lured him into thinking peace would last. I think Gohan has a genuine fondness for learning that he finally got to pursue seriously once he had time to do it. That is not the same as Gohan being against fighting or even thinking he shouldn't fight when the need occurs, otherwise he wouldn't have donned the Great Saiyman guise, which he used to help people. The thing is that hurt him was a new threat even greater than Cell did eventually emerge and Gohan was unprepared for it and we saw the consequences later on, but even then Gohan still was willing to fight when there was need for it. The issue here is that Toriyama felt Gohan wasn't leading material for whatever reason so he never had Gohan train again, so Goku and Vegeta can surpass him and stay ahead of him. The logically step in Gohan's character development after Majin Buu IMO would be to continue to train just in case another stronger threat emerged, while still pursuing what he wants to do and be a balanced life than either Goku or Vegeta. Gohan being a responsible adult unlike his dad and Vegeta who works to provide for his family, spend time with his friends, work, and keep up his training could have been possible. Honestly after Majin Buu was defeated the manga never outright stated if Gohan stopped training or not. We just know he became a scholar. Since the series was ending there could have been leeway Toriyama had to have had Gohan still trained just in case but not fight for fun like his father and Vegeta do.
Now that DB is back the lack of training and desire to fight has just been Toriyama has made part of Gohan's character, the defining part. He exaggerated the decrease in power a lot too, far more than what we saw in the Buu arc (which did state while Gohan got weaker the decrease wasn't that large) and used it as an excuse for why Gohan was out of action only to have him commit to training again and used it as character development when that could and should have been used after Majin Buu's defeat. I argue the character development for Gohan was consistent in the original manga and Z anime and that he was never a pacifist, but that his character arc got reset because Toriyama has no idea what to do with him much like most of the characters in this new Dragon Ball revival.
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