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Post by Solus on Jan 4, 2019 15:37:54 GMT
Because of the current fight in DBM people tend to theorize about Piccolo's actual power level - which is stupid since he himself stated in DBM that he hit his limit and never reached Perfect Cell's level. But I wonder how strong Piccolo was after the last time he really fought.
1. Cell Games: In the Manga there is only one picture showing Piccolo interacting with a Cell Jr. at all. And that is a little panel in chapter 408.  Then there is another image at the first pages of volume 34 which is not really connected to the story but still shows Piccolo, Trunks and Vegeta as the only ones standing. It definitely does refer to the fight against the Juniors but question is, how relevant it is, since it is no manga panel. I'm sorry, but I can't show it to you, since I don't find it anywhere in the internet.
It's clear that the Juniors are only toying with all of them since Cell orders them to kill the Z Warriors after realizing that this won't trigger Gohan enough. But the mere fact that Piccolo is still on his feet seems to me an indicator for a really huge power level in comparison to all others. Now you could argue, that he is of course way stronger than the humans. But at his base level after fusing with Kami would he really be stronger than an exhausted Goku? I mean, Goku had a hard fight against Cell, but he wasn't even injured in the least. He just was exhausted. That's all. Now given all my assumptions base on Piccolo standing and Goku being pummeled meaning that Piccolo was stronger than Goku at that Moment. Could Goku really fall so many tiers in power that he would be weaker than C17 without being severely injured? If we take it for granted that all the Juniors were equally strong and they all fought to not kill but still defeat and torture their opponents, how could Piccolo fare better against one of them then Goku?
It's a far stretch, since there is no real evidence for anything I claim, but I do think that Cell Games Piccolo is not that far behind Trunks and Vegeta. And even if you think they didn't make any progress in the second year they trained in the HTC (which is heavily implied in the manga and anime but actually bullshit) then that would be a huge jump for him. Do you agree with me up to this point?
Then here is the next thing ... Despite Gohan no-one ever was portrayed as slacking of. Yet in the Budokai Tenkaichi Piccolo (who should have maintained the power level of the Cell Games or even improved) surrendered against Kaioshin. But not because he knew who that was, but because he thought, that Kaioshin was way stronger than him. (Sorry for the bad quality ...)
That scene never made any sense and I believe it was just to hype Kaioshin and not thought through to the end. But let's take it for canon (which it sadly is). For Kaioshin to be leagues above Piccolo Shin had to be at least as strong as Cell if Piccolo was at Super-Vegeta level. We know, Shin wasn't, so we have to scale that down. How strong could Shin be at maximum? He never had any real fight except against Buu and he was pummeled. But Majin Vegeta was, too, so that is no indication. We do know, that the realms of SSJ2 are far beyond Shins imagination, because he was so excited and surprised when Gohan went SSJ2 against Kibito. Also he thought, Dabra (who was said to be about as strong as Perfect Cell by Vegeta) would be invincible. This also means that Shin can't really sense energy levels because he witnessed Gohan's SSJ2 before he met Dabra. But that is on another note.
So we know that Shin is weaker than Dabra/Cell but Leagues stronger than Piccolo. Let's go with an easy calculation here and say Shin is at Cell Jr. level and Piccolo anywhere beneath that. Is that realistic? Could Piccolo really be beneath that level if he managed to climb from C17 level to Super-Vegeta level in just two years? There were seven years between Cell and Buu and Piccolo didn't get any stronger?
It also seems that he did not train at all, since he is much smaller than in the Cell Games (look at his arm in the second picture). But why would he? What do you all say? How strong was Piccolo in the buu saga?
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Post by thequebecois on Jan 4, 2019 17:45:16 GMT
All we know about piccolos strength post his fight with 17:
-he got stronger in the RoSaT, but not enough to beat cell
-he fought a cell junior, the way the fight happened is unknown, THE Cell junior may have been playing with him for all we know
-Vegeta says he can win the tournament in base
-He admit inferiority to Shin, who is latter shown to be weaker than even rusty ssj1 gohan, as he could pull the Z sword while none of the kaioshin could
-he is the dominant part of the fusion when Gotenks defuse
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Post by Solus on Jan 4, 2019 19:30:57 GMT
All we know about piccolos strength post his fight with 17: -he got stronger in the RoSaT, but not enough to beat cell -he fought a cell junior, the way the fight happened is unknown, THE Cell junior may have been playing with him for all we know - Vegeta says he can win the tournament in base-He admit inferiority to Shin, who is latter shown to be weaker than even rusty ssj1 gohan, as he could pull the Z sword while none of the kaioshin could - he is the dominant part of the fusion when Gotenks defuseYes, those two points come directly from the manga, but they do contradict each other. If Piccolo is stronger than either Goten or Trunks in SSJ, how would Vegeta be able to beat him in Base? Implying that Base Vegeta is stronger than any Super saiyan is utterly nonsense, since when ssj works as a multiplyer and not a fix boost then such a strong Vegeta wouldn't need SSJ2. |
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Post by thequebecois on Jan 4, 2019 19:40:03 GMT
All we know about piccolos strength post his fight with 17: -he got stronger in the RoSaT, but not enough to beat cell -he fought a cell junior, the way the fight happened is unknown, THE Cell junior may have been playing with him for all we know - Vegeta says he can win the tournament in base-He admit inferiority to Shin, who is latter shown to be weaker than even rusty ssj1 gohan, as he could pull the Z sword while none of the kaioshin could - he is the dominant part of the fusion when Gotenks defuseYes, those two points come directly from the manga, but they do contradict each other. If Piccolo is stronger than either Goten or Trunks in SSJ, how would Vegeta be able to beat him in Base? Implying that Base Vegeta is stronger than any Super saiyan is utterly nonsense, since when ssj works as a multiplyer and not a fix boost then such a strong Vegeta wouldn't need SSJ2. Goten and Trunk were reverted to base inside Buu |
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Post by Solus on Jan 5, 2019 11:07:31 GMT
Yes, those two points come directly from the manga, but they do contradict each other. If Piccolo is stronger than either Goten or Trunks in SSJ, how would Vegeta be able to beat him in Base? Implying that Base Vegeta is stronger than any Super saiyan is utterly nonsense, since when ssj works as a multiplyer and not a fix boost then such a strong Vegeta wouldn't need SSJ2. Goten and Trunk were reverted to base inside Buu There is no proof for that, except one scene where Goku and Vegeta free all of them. But we don't know what actually happened to Gotenks after he was absorbed. Imagine him inside that bubble and splitting up. Shouldn't Goten and Trunks be in the same bubble then? Toriyama surely didn't think about all that. But I don't see why Buu shouldn't have access to Goten and Trunks's SSJ power even after fusion. When Gotenks SSJ3 defused against Buu, Trunks and Goten were also in SSJ, not in base. |
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Post by thequebecois on Jan 5, 2019 12:04:29 GMT
Goten and Trunk were reverted to base inside Buu There is no proof for that, except one scene where Goku and Vegeta free all of them. But we don't know what actually happened to Gotenks after he was absorbed. Imagine him inside that bubble and splitting up. Shouldn't Goten and Trunks be in the same bubble then? Toriyama surely didn't think about all that. But I don't see why Buu shouldn't have access to Goten and Trunks's SSJ power even after fusion. When Gotenks SSJ3 defused against Buu, Trunks and Goten were also in SSJ, not in base. The last time we saw Goten and Trunks defuse in their fight, They were in base, as they fused in base and want SSJ after fusing |
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Post by Solus on Jan 5, 2019 23:34:54 GMT
There is no proof for that, except one scene where Goku and Vegeta free all of them. But we don't know what actually happened to Gotenks after he was absorbed. Imagine him inside that bubble and splitting up. Shouldn't Goten and Trunks be in the same bubble then? Toriyama surely didn't think about all that. But I don't see why Buu shouldn't have access to Goten and Trunks's SSJ power even after fusion. When Gotenks SSJ3 defused against Buu, Trunks and Goten were also in SSJ, not in base. The last time we saw Goten and Trunks defuse in their fight, They were in base, as they fused in base and want SSJ after fusing Oh yeah, you're right. I checked it up and realized, that I mixed my memories up with this scene:
But ok, let's stay with the original manga. Actually Gotenks didn't defuse against Buu, but lost his SSJ3 and went back to base. Now we have to speculate about how Buu's absorption works again. The boys fused and went immediately SSJ3 before Buu absorbed them. That means, if their SSJ3 runs out after 5 minutes, they should have 25 minutes left as base Gotenks. Does that mean that Piccolo was stronger than Base Gotenks? That's hardly believable, is it? Or does it mean that for whatever reason they defuse directly after SSJ3 runs out? However there is still nothing that indicates that Buu could not access to their power as SSJ.
So either Piccolo > Base Gotenks (which I don't believe) or Piccolo > SSJ Trunks (which is highly probable). So my Point about Vegeta not being able to beat Piccolo without transforming is still valid.
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Post by Eldagusto on Jan 27, 2019 8:40:23 GMT
I reckon Pickles was around Trunks level vs the Cell Juniors, he couldn’t go USSJ buffness though, probably anyways.
And I reaally think Pickles could have taken Shin. I reckon it was his Kami Side which held him back, expecting a Celestial god to be fathomless compared to mortals, and I feel he was Wrong. I’ll bet Shin was more Android 17ish level, maybe 16. I think Pickles bowed out out of respect.
I’ll bet Pickles just never cultivated much after Cell Saga, similar to the 5 years leading to Raditz he probably had lax training and spent more time philosophizing and enjoying solitude, with normal basic training.
My big problem is I feel Pickles should have had great gains I. His day in the time chamber. He became whole after Fusing with Kami, and without even practicing his new Power he was greater then 17. The Saiyans severely boosted in the Time Chamber, but Pickles didn’t seem to improve as drastically, even though he had the most room to improve considering he just completed his soul and had so much new potential. He went in stronger then Goku and Vegeta by far but he made the humblest gains.
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Post by Axalon on Feb 3, 2019 20:48:09 GMT
It's really hard to tell how strong he was since he was such an underused character by then. Regarding Piccolo in Cell Games: I'm fairly sure that's because of said toying with them that was already mentioned. Cell's watching the entire thing and clearly states that only Vegeta and Trunks are really holding their own.  Bear in mind that at the exact moment he says this you can literally see Piccolo and a Cell Jr fighting each other in the bottom right corner, but Cell doesn't even count him as a factor. Piccolo's on his feet later on, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's holding his own like Vegeta and Trunks were. It just means he hasn't collapsed like Goku and Krillin already had. Regarding Piccolo in the Buu Saga: Shin need not be as strong as Cell if we also don't assume that Piccolo is equal to Super Vegeta. Remember, Cell is only brought up as a comparison when Dabura is fighting Gohan, and Shin started sweating bullets the instant he saw Dabura.  Furthermore, if we take DBS into account regarding Dabura, we see how well SS1 Future Trunks and Shin do prior to Trunks unlocking SS2. AKA, not well.  Dabura isn't even winded while the trio of Trunks, Shin and Kibito are beat up. It thus stands to reason that placing Shin as being equals to Cell, whom Goku directly compared Dabura to, is a false equivalency. Shin therefore must logically be weaker than Cell using Dabura as our comparison and Cell stand-in. So what does this mean for Piccolo? Well, it means that he's weaker than Shin for starters, though that wasn't really in question due to the forfeit. We also know that Piccolo is the strongest absorbed individual once Gotenks de-fuses into the base form of Goten and Trunks, which isn't saying much since Piccolo was also stronger than the base form of Goku or Vegeta and only became weaker than them when they went Super Saiyan anyway. Because of this we can expect a scale to look something like this: Super Saiyan 2 (Anybody) Super Perfect Cell Perfect Cell/Dabura Supreme Kai Piccolo Base Goten/Trunks If that scale looks incredibly unhelpful that's because it IS unhelpful. Piccolo is low enough on the scale that the specifics of his power level didn't even matter up until Buuccolo made him the most relevant person he had absorbed for a short time. He may well indeed be as strong as Super Vegeta by the time of the Buu Saga, but it's all a guessing game with incredibly limited information to work with aside from the fact that Shin is stronger than he is. Personally I'd put him at maybe Imperfect Cell levels just prior to absorbing #17. Semi-Perfect Cell at best, with Shin being more akin to Super Vegeta than Piccolo. As for DBM Piccolo, he's clearly improved a bit despite not reaching Perfect Cell levels, given what he did to Majin #17.  |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 3, 2019 21:01:13 GMT
AxalonBuu can draw the max power, so even if we saw base Goten and Trunks, it actually means... Piccolo >> SSJ Trunks and Goten. Not that it's much of a difference at this point.
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Post by Axalon on Feb 3, 2019 21:03:25 GMT
Axalon Buu can draw the max power, so even if we saw base Goten and Trunks, it actually means... Piccolo >> SSJ Trunks and Goten. Not that it's much of a difference at this point. Where was that stated? |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 3, 2019 21:45:21 GMT
Axalon Buu can draw the max power, so even if we saw base Goten and Trunks, it actually means... Piccolo >> SSJ Trunks and Goten. Not that it's much of a difference at this point. Where was that stated? Nowhere. But the opposite wasn't stated anywhere either. Also, not DBZ canon, but this happened in DBM. Buu absorbs Vegeta in SSJ:  Then this is shown 2 pages after:  Everything is OK here unless you assume that he just can never use the maximum transformation power of the absorbees if they are not transformed. And it's also awkward to think he'd just have SSJ3 Gotenks powering up with eyes closed asleep inside a cocoon. |
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Post by Axalon on Feb 4, 2019 0:13:31 GMT
Nowhere. But the opposite wasn't stated anywhere either. Well unless you take the Daizhenshuu into account: Obviously this was before the whole Mystic Gohan thing, but still. By this logic and the "max absorbed potential" theory, Buuccolo should never have existed and we should've instead seen Gohan and Goku staring down Buurunks. I mean, the entire Buu Saga is an awkward mess, so I never really discounted the possibility of this being a thing. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 4, 2019 0:16:24 GMT
Nowhere. But the opposite wasn't stated anywhere either. Well unless you take the Daizhenshuu into account: Obviously this was before the whole Mystic Gohan thing, but still. By this logic and the "max absorbed potential" theory, Buuccolo should never have existed and we should've instead seen Gohan and Goku staring down Buurunks.I mean, the entire Buu Saga is an awkward mess, so I never really discounted the possibility of this being a thing. Nope, it just means Piccolo is stronger than either SSJ Goten or Trunks. |
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Post by Axalon on Feb 4, 2019 0:17:45 GMT
Well unless you take the Daizhenshuu into account: Obviously this was before the whole Mystic Gohan thing, but still. By this logic and the "max absorbed potential" theory, Buuccolo should never have existed and we should've instead seen Gohan and Goku staring down Buurunks.I mean, the entire Buu Saga is an awkward mess, so I never really discounted the possibility of this being a thing. Nope, it just means Piccolo is stronger than either SSJ Goten or Trunks. That makes no sense since SS1 Gohan, even when slacking, is stronger than Piccolo. Ergo, Goten/Trunks are stronger than Piccolo. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Feb 4, 2019 0:36:36 GMT
Nope, it just means Piccolo is stronger than either SSJ Goten or Trunks. , even when slacking, is stronger than Piccolo. Ergo, Goten/Trunks are stronger than Piccolo. It makes sense if SSJ Gohan is still stronger than some kids, which most likely he is. You know, "adult body" and stuff. Ergo, Goten/Trunks are still not stronger than Piccolo. I don't think Goten or Trunks individually could deal with A18, or Freeza for example. And no, I do not take daizenshuus into account. I never do. Was not also a daisenzhuu that said Buuhan was only as strong as Goku SSJ3? All things considered he has to have a power all the more inferior to Gohan. Possibly still stronger than Goku was on Namek (for power inflation and trivialization purposes) despite having less battle experience. You are aware you are implying Buu has to transform whoever he has absorbed (if having transformations), unconscious, eyes closed, inside a coccoon in order to use them? I am having a hard time visualizing him doing that as opposed to just using the latent power of the available transformations without needing to actually transform the body. I agree there is not enough data but this seems to be the case by Ockham's razor. Specially by DBM's continuity. |
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Post by Axalon on Feb 4, 2019 0:56:35 GMT
That makes no sense since SS1 Gohan, even when slacking, is stronger than Piccolo. Ergo, Goten/Trunks are stronger than Piccolo. It makes sense if SSJ Gohan is still stronger than some kids, which most likely he is. You know, "adult body" and stuff. Ergo, Goten/Trunks are still not stronger than Piccolo. I don't think Goten or Trunks individually could deal with A18, or Freeza for example. And no, I do not take daizenshuus into account. I never do. I don't like the Daizhenshuus either, but I simply provided it for those who might use it as a Devil's Advocate to "the opposite wasn't stated either" point. Personally, I think it's absurd that Piccolo would be weaker than Goten, and have no idea where the writers of it pulled that from. That said, I don't think the kids would have any problems dealing with Frieza, individually or not. #18 is a bit murky, but she had no qualms of throwing a freaking kienzan at them, quite possibly one of the most lethal attacks in her arsenal, in a bid to simply disqualify them rather than outright knock them out. If they were on par with, say, Android Saga SS1 Vegeta, it'd be an easy knockout victory. As easy as the way she broke his arm with a single kick. The fact she chose this potentially lethal option instead I feel is a bit telling, instead of simply smacking them on the head and being done with it. As for Buu, I'm just gonna chalk up the DBM examples as author/artist discretion. Personally, I don't buy into the "max potential" thing as it stands in DBZ (DBM being it's own continuity) and think that Gotenks was SS3 the whole time he was absorbed. There's no real evidence either way though, so rather than just argue headcanons for the worst saga in DBZ I think we can all agree that Piccolo's strength is "not much better" than it was in the previous saga. |
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Post by Ashanark on Feb 4, 2019 14:34:45 GMT
I think thequebecois summed up most of what I was going to say, but I'll add a few more thoughts: -- All we know about East Kai is that he could've felled Frieza with "a single blow," which, well... ...isn't that impressive, to be honest. -- With that said, I always understood Piccolo's forfeit to be out of respect for East Kai, not necessarily because he couldn't win. -- Since no one had already brought this up, when we first see Babidi and Dabura... In the English dub Babidi said something like "kill all but the three strongest" which has slightly different implications but the point still stands that Dabura saw the Saiyans as the strongest of the mortals. The problem is that both Babidi and Dabura are utterly flabbergasted when Goku goes SS1: This implies that when Dabura said "three of them have great potential," he was not taking into account Super Saiyan transformations. This, in turn, implies that all three Saiyans were higher than Piccolo in base. This is consistent with Vegeta thinking he could still win the tournament without having to transform even with Piccolo and 18 being there, but it also implies that by the time of the Buu saga, all three Saiyans were stronger than at least Android 17 in their base form. As far as I know this is way higher than many fan interpretations of base Saiyan strength, including Salagir's, and a level of power we generally didn't see untransformed Saiyans displaying until DBS. (Oddly enough, it is consistent with how Fusion Reborn has base Gohan 1-shot Frieza.) Unfortunately, much of the Buu saga makes no sense. Babidi and Dabura had no idea that SS2 Gohan's energy, which filled Buu's container from whatever it was to almost half, came from just one person. But then Dabura comes right around in the very same page and confidently states that the three Saiyans will be able to provide the rest: If Dabura knows the three Saiyans, between them, can output energy equal to Gohan's SS2 (which he didn't know came from Gohan), then it makes sense why he'd stone Piccolo even if Piccolo was stronger than the Saiyans were in base. But if he knew the Saiyans were capable of SS2 output, why was he so surprised at Goku's Super Saiyan transformation? See, none of the extra-terrestrials in the Buu saga knew what the Saiyans were capable of. Supreme Kai knew about SS1 but apparently didn't know about SS2, or even how strong regular Super Saiyans could get (since it was only until Goku killed Yakon that he realized why they were so calm about the situation.) Babidi seems to have known there was someone strong on Earth because he sent Spopovich and Yamu to find that person at the world tournament: ...but again, he was surprised at how much they got, so it doesn't seem like he'd sensed SS2-levels (even though in hindsight, he couldn't have expected to resurrect Majin Buu without them.) So no matter how you slice it, something doesn't make sense in this situation. Either: 1) Dabura and Babidi know the Saiyans' true strength but then forget, in which case Piccolo may be stronger than base Saiyans; OR 2) Dabura and Babidi don't know the Saiyans' true strength, in which case a lot of their comments or actions make no sense and, coincidentally, Piccolo isn't stronger than base Saiyans. Either way Supreme Kai forgets how strong SS2 Gohan was, which is the only way to justify his panic with Dabura (who freaks out at SS1 Goku.) The real answer, of course, is that Toriyama really couldn't be bothered at this point and honestly didn't care, even at those moments when he did remember what characters had said earlier. As much as I hate to say it, odds are in Toriyama's mind he thought the base Saiyans could beat Piccolo by this point. Dabura's comment to Babidi about the Saiyans being the three strongest mortal is at least consistent with Vegeta's confidence going into the tournament: This may all be irrelevant to the main discussion but I guess what I was getting at was this: if Dabura's sweating bullets while looking at SS1 Goku, and Dabura's not better than Perfect Cell, and base Saiyans are likely stronger than Piccolo, then it means Piccolo's at best about where DBM places him (MSS-tier) and at worst maybe Android 16-level (since Goku said he'd improved coming out of the HTC.) Freaking Toriyama, man. |
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Post by Axalon on Feb 5, 2019 1:27:25 GMT
Ashanark Heh, I had that scan about Dabura sensing PLs ready to go but decided arguing more Buu Saga wasn't worth my time, haha. I disagree, or, at the very least, Toriyama changed his mind again when BoG rolled around. Whether you go by the manga or the anime or even the original movie Beerus has this curious statement about Goku and how his strength relates to Frieza. Namek Saga Frieza of course, not OP Golden Frieza that followed. Manga: Anime: Movie: Given that this statement happens three times in three different variations of the story, I'd say this is without doubt definitively Toriyama's take (or at the very least, his CURRENT take) on how base Goku stacks up to Frieza around the Buu Saga, given that little to no progress that we've observed happened between Kid Buu's defeat and Beerus waking up from his nap. Beerus quite plainly states that base Goku is not capable of defeating Frieza, even up to the Buu Saga power levels, and needed the Super Saiyan transformations to do it. As for Vegeta's confidence, I always chalked that up to typical Vegeta bravado mixed with the knowledge that Gohan had majorly slacked off since the Cell Games.
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