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Post by EvilXoda on Jun 5, 2022 4:07:54 GMT
Yea, hot take, but after some thought, I do like the idea of how SSJ3 stamina drain becomes more drastic the stronger the person becomes. It makes it feel more unique, and if it was a form that could be trained to be made like the previous SSJ forms... well, it would just become another SSJ form. And going this way, it brings a tension to the situation and emphasizes its power through that drawback; Vegetto's gotta get whatever he needs to do done within the short time, or he's gonna be left vulnerable if he fails, but at the time he may likely eclipse anything in his way. Does he use the time to charge up an ultimate attack, or does he just blitz the target and pound it into mush with a relentless assault? He needs to have a gameplan and be efficient when he uses the form.
That said, my problem is that while the stamina problem makes it feel unique, there's nothing to counterbalance this. The increase in power stays the same, but the stamina drain worsens, thus making it feel like a growing burden. IMO, it would've been interesting if the form's power increased beyond the stable multipliers in balance to the shortening time limit. I mean Vegetto is already overwhelming as all hell in just SSJ, let alone SS2, and when he goes SSJ3 it feels really dominating, but in line with what you would expect from anyone using SSJ3.
Or, how about a special attribute, like invincibility like Broly?! (Haha... no. Fuck that.)
That said, I suppose that might clash with this mysterious SSJ form Goku and Vegeta are hiding up their sleeves. But then, we don't really know what might be planned with that coming SSJ form.
Also he's likely just following his personal lore from looking at how SSJ3 is handled in Buu saga. Gotenks SSJ3 only lasted 5 minutes, while Goku's SSJ3 (while alive) seemed to fight Kid Buu for considerably longer, but no time was called out for it (though to be fair, it could've also wound up being 5 minutes.)
Well, whatever. How would you handle or reinterpret it?
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Post by godjacob on Jun 5, 2022 6:54:00 GMT
DBM managed to take SSj3, which was already a form with massive drawbacks and little practical benefits, and somehow made it even more of a liability. All the "stronger you are, faster it drains you" aspect does it make the form unviable as if you fail to kill your opponent immediately with it you just lose (See U13 Vegeta).
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Post by EvilXoda on Jun 5, 2022 15:32:17 GMT
DBM managed to take SSj3, which was already a form with massive drawbacks and little practical benefits, and somehow made it even more of a liability. All the "stronger you are, faster it drains you" aspect does it make the form unviable as if you fail to kill your opponent immediately with it you just lose (See U13 Vegeta). Yea, but it gives the form a risk/reward value to it that the other forms don't have. That's what makes it more interesting when it's used for me. You have a limited time to accomplish what you set out to do, so you have to put some thought into it in order to maximize its use. That's where my problem lies with it. There's an increasing detriment to using the form as you get stronger, but no increasing positives to even things out. Like I mentioned, if the form got stronger as the stamina drain increased or had some other kind of advantage, it would help it out and make it even more imposing whenever one sees it used. It would help the feeling of "overkill mode" the form should have IMO. What would you do with the form instead?
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Post by godjacob on Jun 5, 2022 17:29:17 GMT
DBM managed to take SSj3, which was already a form with massive drawbacks and little practical benefits, and somehow made it even more of a liability. All the "stronger you are, faster it drains you" aspect does it make the form unviable as if you fail to kill your opponent immediately with it you just lose (See U13 Vegeta). Yea, but it gives the form a risk/reward value to it that the other forms don't have. That's what makes it more interesting when it's used for me. You have a limited time to accomplish what you set out to do, so you have to put some thought into it in order to maximize its use. That's where my problem lies with it. There's an increasing detriment to using the form as you get stronger, but no increasing positives to even things out. Like I mentioned, if the form got stronger as the stamina drain increased or had some other kind of advantage, it would help it out and make it even more imposing whenever one sees it used. It would help the feeling of "overkill mode" the form should have IMO. What would you do with the form instead? Canon SSj3 already offers this, difference being the form doesn't become literally unusable like it is in DBM because of this "stronger you are, faster it burns out" idea. You still had to worry about beating your opponent relatively quickly when in a mortal body and gives that risk/reward drama. DBM simply removes the reward aspect to the form, making it all risk.
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Post by عمار on Jun 5, 2022 18:38:20 GMT
What I will do with it?
Get rid of its weakness when a saiyan is able to fully master it. So, no more "level 3 devours all your energy quickly".
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 5, 2022 19:03:57 GMT
I think I would make it so Saiyans can condition their bodies to handle the strain of SS3 better to increase their time of use, but perhaps still keep the drawback of it draining ki faster that cannot be entirely overcome through training. I liked SS3 was the first form to display this weakness mentioned back in the Cell arc inherent to all SS forms, despite us never actually seeing it in play ever. I do like the idea that stacking transformation upon transformation on the body can only be done so many times before the body just cannot fully overcome it.
I think the best idea for SS3 that goes with DBM’s diminished returns theory would be for the stronger Saiyans get the longer they can last in the form, but that level of transformation is so high on the body that the Saiyans cannot fully overcome in their lifetime. Perhaps later down to line evolution would allow for it, but not Goku or Gohan’s generations. Let’s say Goku could only maintain SS3 for 5 minutes in the Buu arc with a living body. I would say Goku after 20 years of training can now maintain the form for an 30-45 minutes, but depending on how much ki he expends and how much damage his body takes that time off his transformation. Like if Goku dumps half his ki into a Kamehamaha his time goes from 45 minutes to 22 minutes. This way it makes SS3 usable in a fight, but still makes the users more thoughtful at how and when to expend their ki since using it cost them like in other Shonen.
It keeps Old Kai’s power up special. He enhanced Gohan’s body to use his full potential without Super Saiyan transformations his body doesn’t experience the same strains of the transformations and keeps him from experiencing the same drawbacks. Goku and Vegeta will instead seek to use techniques to lessen to drawbacks of SS3. It still allows for them to train for a way to over or lessen SS3 burden to compete with Gohan, while making SS3 be the end all of current Saiyan evolution, and still keeps Mystic its own unique thing all at once.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 5, 2022 19:07:54 GMT
I think I would make it so Saiyans can condition their bodies to handle the strain of SS3 better to increase their time of use, but perhaps still keep the drawback of it draining ki faster that cannot be entirely overcome through training. I liked SS3 was the first form to display this weakness mentioned back in the Cell arc inherent to all SS forms, despite us never actually seeing it in play ever. I do like the idea that stacking transformation upon transformation on the body can only be done so many times before the body just cannot fully overcome it. I think the best idea for SS3 that goes with DBM’s diminished returns theory would be for the stronger Saiyans get the longer they can last in the form, but that level of transformation is so high on the body that the Saiyans cannot fully overcome in their lifetime. Perhaps later down to line evolution would allow for it, but not Goku or Gohan’s generations. Let’s say Goku could only maintain SS3 for 5 minutes in the Buu arc with a living body. I would say Goku after 20 years of training can now maintain the form for an 30-45 minutes, but depending on how much ki he expends and how much damage his body takes that time off his transformation. Like if Goku dumps half his ki into a Kamehamaha his time goes from 45 minutes to 22 minutes. This way it makes SS3 usable in a fight, but still makes the users more thoughtful at how and when to expend their ki since using it cost them like in other Shonen. It keeps Old Kai’s power up special. He enhanced Gohan’s body to use his full potential without Super Saiyan transformations his body doesn’t experience the same strains of the transformations and keeps him from experiencing the same drawbacks. Goku and Vegeta will instead seek to use techniques to lessen to drawbacks of SS3. It still allows for them to train for a way to over or lessen SS3 burden to compete with Gohan, while making SS3 be the end all of current Saiyan evolution, and still keeps Mystic its own unique thing all at once. Unrelated to the main topic but fuck the Mystic Form. Gohan literally sits on his ass and becomes the strongest non-fused character in the manga because "muh potential" and the design is easily the laziest in all Dragon Ball media. I HATE this power so so much. And it is baffling people wanted the manga to end with Gohan winning because of this.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 5, 2022 19:28:47 GMT
I think I would make it so Saiyans can condition their bodies to handle the strain of SS3 better to increase their time of use, but perhaps still keep the drawback of it draining ki faster that cannot be entirely overcome through training. I liked SS3 was the first form to display this weakness mentioned back in the Cell arc inherent to all SS forms, despite us never actually seeing it in play ever. I do like the idea that stacking transformation upon transformation on the body can only be done so many times before the body just cannot fully overcome it. I think the best idea for SS3 that goes with DBM’s diminished returns theory would be for the stronger Saiyans get the longer they can last in the form, but that level of transformation is so high on the body that the Saiyans cannot fully overcome in their lifetime. Perhaps later down to line evolution would allow for it, but not Goku or Gohan’s generations. Let’s say Goku could only maintain SS3 for 5 minutes in the Buu arc with a living body. I would say Goku after 20 years of training can now maintain the form for an 30-45 minutes, but depending on how much ki he expends and how much damage his body takes that time off his transformation. Like if Goku dumps half his ki into a Kamehamaha his time goes from 45 minutes to 22 minutes. This way it makes SS3 usable in a fight, but still makes the users more thoughtful at how and when to expend their ki since using it cost them like in other Shonen. It keeps Old Kai’s power up special. He enhanced Gohan’s body to use his full potential without Super Saiyan transformations his body doesn’t experience the same strains of the transformations and keeps him from experiencing the same drawbacks. Goku and Vegeta will instead seek to use techniques to lessen to drawbacks of SS3. It still allows for them to train for a way to over or lessen SS3 burden to compete with Gohan, while making SS3 be the end all of current Saiyan evolution, and still keeps Mystic its own unique thing all at once. Unrelated to the main topic but fuck the Mystic Form. Gohan literally sits on his ass and becomes the strongest non-fused character in the manga because "muh potential" and the design is easily the laziest in all Dragon Ball media. I HATE this power so so much. And it is baffling people wanted the manga to end with Gohan winning because of this. Lol. I figured you would hate it based on last conversations. It is cool different strokes for different folks.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 5, 2022 19:31:28 GMT
Unrelated to the main topic but fuck the Mystic Form. Gohan literally sits on his ass and becomes the strongest non-fused character in the manga because "muh potential" and the design is easily the laziest in all Dragon Ball media. I HATE this power so so much. And it is baffling people wanted the manga to end with Gohan winning because of this. Lol. I figured you would hate it based on last conversations. It is cool different strokes for different folks. Yeah speaking my side, if you like Mystic then more power to you. Can't imagine why one would but can't expect everyone to share my views on all subjects XD
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Post by عمار on Jun 5, 2022 19:44:36 GMT
Yeah speaking my side, if you like Mystic then more power to you. Can't imagine why one would but can't expect everyone to share my views on all subjects XD IDK, I just like the fact that it's Old Kai "magic" that made Gohan what he is right now. It made the Kaioshins somewhat important.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 5, 2022 19:48:01 GMT
Yeah speaking my side, if you like Mystic then more power to you. Can't imagine why one would but can't expect everyone to share my views on all subjects XD IDK, I just like the fact that it's Old Kai "magic" that made Gohan what he is right now. It made the Kaioshins somewhat important. Godjoacb has made it known he doesn’t like quick power ups. He even despise zenkai concept. It is not surprising he dislikes Mystic form. He prefers training overall. He thinks it fits DB’s hard work theme better. I see where he is doing from. We have disagreed in the past if that message was already broken Aesop or not in the past. I would have personally preferred if Gohan had to continue to train to maintain his power level. I liked the concept of Saiyan who got augmented to not need Super Saiyan transformations anymore. I liked the minor design changes and keeping black hair.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 5, 2022 19:49:13 GMT
Yeah speaking my side, if you like Mystic then more power to you. Can't imagine why one would but can't expect everyone to share my views on all subjects XD IDK, I just like the fact that it's Old Kai "magic" that made Gohan what he is right now. It made the Kaioshins somewhat important. But that's not what happened. Old Kai simply unlocked Gohan's potential which is what the jump in power was, similar to Grand Elder Guru on Namek only to a bigger scale cause plot. So it isn't even the Old Kai using magic to give a steroid boost to Gohan. He just released Gohan's "dormant" power which is why the state is sometimes called potential unleashed.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 5, 2022 19:53:01 GMT
I always took it as he unleashed Gohan’s full potential but his magic is what made the mystic upgrade so Gohan doesn’t go SS anymore but an enhanced base form. It is part Gohan’s power and part Old Kai’s magic to bring it out in sort of base form instead of needing to transform into Super Saiyan form.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 5, 2022 19:53:56 GMT
IDK, I just like the fact that it's Old Kai "magic" that made Gohan what he is right now. It made the Kaioshins somewhat important. Godjoacb has made it known he doesn’t like quick power ups. He even despise zenkai concept. It is not surprising he dislikes Mystic form. He prefers training overall. He thinks it fits DB’s hard work theme better. I see where he is doing from. We have disagreed in the past if that message was already broken Aesop or not in the past. I would have personally preferred if Gohan had to continue to train to maintain his power level. I liked the concept of Saiyan who got augmented to not need Super Saiyan transformations anymore. I liked the minor design changes and keeping black hair. That and power ups that just scream plot connivence as much as anything else. Oh Vegeta and Goku are hilariously outclassed by Frieza and his men? Here's a zenkai! Can give you an arbitrary boost in power that isn't even consistent with itself to level up the Saiyans as high as we need them to be. Ultra Divine Water is a literal deus ex machina that goes against the moral of Korin's lesson in the Red Ribbon Arc but we needed an excuse for Goku to be able to fight against King Piccolo.
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Post by عمار on Jun 5, 2022 19:55:30 GMT
But that's not what happened. Old Kai simply unlocked Gohan's potential which is what the jump in power was, similar to Grand Elder Guru on Namek only to a bigger scale cause plot. So it isn't even the Old Kai using magic to give a steroid boost to Gohan. He just released Gohan's "dormant" power which is why the state is sometimes called potential unleashed. Yeah, but with Old Kai (and DBM) Mystic is more like an "upgrade" rather than "transformation". Gohan cannot "turn it off".
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 5, 2022 19:59:02 GMT
Godjoacb has made it known he doesn’t like quick power ups. He even despise zenkai concept. It is not surprising he dislikes Mystic form. He prefers training overall. He thinks it fits DB’s hard work theme better. I see where he is doing from. We have disagreed in the past if that message was already broken Aesop or not in the past. I would have personally preferred if Gohan had to continue to train to maintain his power level. I liked the concept of Saiyan who got augmented to not need Super Saiyan transformations anymore. I liked the minor design changes and keeping black hair. That and power ups that just scream plot connivence as much as anything else. Oh Vegeta and Goku are hilariously outclassed by Frieza and his men? Here's a zenkai! Can give you an arbitrary boost in power that isn't even consistent with itself to level up the Saiyans as high as we need them to be. Ultra Divine Water is a literal deus ex machina that goes against the moral of Korin's lesson in the Red Ribbon Arc but we needed an excuse for Goku to be able to fight against King Piccolo. Yes. DB does kind of go against itself and is inconsistent a lot. It is just something I learned to accept. As much as I love it I do think it has one of the worst power scales and breaks it’s hard work moral more or worse than even Naruto. It is really cool to see Tien and Krillin can train just as hard as Goku and Vegeta, but by the virtue of them being Saiyans and getting all this power ups that they’ll never catch up. Saiyans are the only thing that matter now, super cool. Hey we have fan fiction to fix those little kinks.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 5, 2022 20:06:35 GMT
But that's not what happened. Old Kai simply unlocked Gohan's potential which is what the jump in power was, similar to Grand Elder Guru on Namek only to a bigger scale cause plot. So it isn't even the Old Kai using magic to give a steroid boost to Gohan. He just released Gohan's "dormant" power which is why the state is sometimes called potential unleashed. Yeah, but with Old Kai (and DBM) Mystic is more like an "upgrade" rather than "transformation". Gohan cannot "turn it off". Oh don't get me started on DBM's take of Mystic. Now Gohan can literally sit on his ass for 10 years and still be stronger than characters who trained for a whole decade just cause he sat down for a day while Old Kai read a magazine. It's insulting lol But back to the SSj3 topic, it just needs something to make the stupidly massive coast worth something. U13 Vegeta directly lost his match because of it and really a big power buff doesn't seem like much of a plus given how taxing its cost is.
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Post by EvilXoda on Jun 5, 2022 21:32:31 GMT
I always took it as he unleashed Gohan’s full potential but his magic is what made the mystic upgrade so Gohan doesn’t go SS anymore but an enhanced base form. It is part Gohan’s power and part Old Kai’s magic to bring it out in sort of base form instead of needing to transform into Super Saiyan form. Mystic form is so damn confusing for me. 1) Gohan had his "potential unleashed" back on Namek (more evidence of Toriyama forgetting stuff.) 2) Can he get any stronger, or is literally at his maximum possible level? Seems to go against the concept of dragonball. 3) Back in Buu saga it was like it replaced his SSJ forms, but now he can just turn into the form in Super. But what is the point of using lesser more draining forms if Mystic is the same but with more power and none of the flaws? Hope the coming movie finally hashes out these problems. Yea, all things considered, I like how strong the humans were able to become in this book, that they can master kaioken and fight someone like Cold, though not his final form, and a Cell saga Cell Jr. It does annoy me that the only way to compete in DB is to be somesort of alien, preferably saiyan. (Worse that anime in general took the wrong message from this and are always loading their MC with shit to make them as strong as they want while quickly forgetting about the side characters.)
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Post by Skarr on Jun 5, 2022 23:48:09 GMT
That said, I suppose that might clash with this mysterious SSJ form Goku and Vegeta are hiding up their sleeves. But then, we don't really know what might be planned with that coming SSJ form. I'm not sure if it applies to DBM but there was an old fan theory that SSJ3 is like USSJ since Goku mentioned that form drained energy. Only getting stronger in SSJ1 drains more and more energy until Goku decided to master the regular form. SSJ3 barely lasted a few minutes in the Buu saga so it would be much harder to master and take longer than with SSJ1. Gotenks and Vegetto being fusions already cuts down their time in the form so more difficult for them if they ever attempted to find an alternative. That only leaves Goku and Vegeta as the most likely to discover it since it's been hinted that SSJ3 isn't their full power.
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Post by Blaze on Jun 6, 2022 12:57:20 GMT
Honestly I'd probably keep it functionally the same. The important thing is just to put a cap on Vegetto himself, which Salagir did with his whole "the stronger you are, the quicker you lose it" thing. But you could probably make this a Vegetto specific thing if you really wanted to. Like, have it where he's so powerful that he's passed a limit and it's now impossible for him to become more accustomed to the form. I'd keep Goku well below that limit, and have it be much easier for him to maintain SSj3 (but still not as easily as his mastered Super Saiyan form). I always took it as he unleashed Gohan’s full potential but his magic is what made the mystic upgrade so Gohan doesn’t go SS anymore but an enhanced base form. It is part Gohan’s power and part Old Kai’s magic to bring it out in sort of base form instead of needing to transform into Super Saiyan form. Mystic form is so damn confusing for me. 1) Gohan had his "potential unleashed" back on Namek (more evidence of Toriyama forgetting stuff.) I don't think Toriyama forgot it. He even made a joke about it. When the Old Kaioshin was talking up his ability to draw out a fighter's latent potential, Goku basically said "...again?". I don't think there's really anything that suggests he can't get stronger. That's just Salagir applying a different kind of style to his work. Though I'll note that it doesn't really go against the concept of Dragon Ball in practice, which functionally ended up putting a limit on tons of characters even if it wasn't a hard limit. Like, we weren't gonna see Tenshinhan show up and be as strong as Goku just through his constant training. This was seemingly just a retcon by Toriyama, who probably doesn't care enough about the form to make sure it's consistent. Interestingly, Toyotaro keeps the form as a permanent change in the DB Super manga.
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