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Post by Skarr on Jun 6, 2022 14:22:20 GMT
I don't think there's really anything that suggests he can't get stronger. That's just Salagir applying a different kind of style to his work. Though I'll note that it doesn't really go against the concept of Dragon Ball in practice, which functionally ended up putting a limit on tons of characters even if it wasn't a hard limit. Like, we weren't gonna see Tenshinhan show up and be as strong as Goku just through his constant training. I think Ultimate Gohan could still get stronger since it could be argued he wasn't an adult yet. The story after the Cell saga made it clear that mastering and unlocking transformations are the only ways Saiyans are getting vastly stronger. Maybe Gohan could train to surpass Buutenks but he's not reaching Vegetto tier without another transformation which is what Toriyama did for Goku. It might be that Toriyama didn't clarify what happens to Gohan in his outlines since his strength varied in the manga and anime. In Super Hero, he's in SSJ again and could only access Ultimate with a rage boost. I'm not sure if it's implied to be any stronger than it was during the Buu saga.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2022 17:29:06 GMT
Did the Manga even imply that once Gohan became Mystic he could never become stronger? It just unlocked his latent potential it was never presented as a "you'll never improve past this or turn it off" like DBM
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Post by Skarr on Jun 6, 2022 17:58:30 GMT
Did the Manga even imply that once Gohan became Mystic he could never become stronger? It just unlocked his latent potential it was never presented as a "you'll never improve past this or turn it off" like DBM Old Kai said it was releasing his potential beyond his limits. It was assumed that was at least near his limit since it boosted his power to above a SSJ3 which was the final transformation in the manga. There was definitely diminishing returns for each form until a new form was unlocked so it would've applied to SSJ3 and Ultimate Gohan eventually.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2022 18:06:10 GMT
Did the Manga even imply that once Gohan became Mystic he could never become stronger? It just unlocked his latent potential it was never presented as a "you'll never improve past this or turn it off" like DBM Old Kai said it was releasing his potential beyond his limits. It was assumed that was at least near his limit since it boosted his power to above a SSJ3 which was the final transformation in the manga. There was definitely diminishing returns for each form until a new form was unlocked so it would've applied to SSJ3 and Ultimate Gohan eventually. But pushing past one's limits is like the central theme of Dragon Ball. EVERY arc minus the first one is about character's meeting a wall and learning to get over it to reach new heights of power. It's never presented the idea that characters just hit a wall and that is as far as they can go, even characters who fall behind the Saiyans make staggering jumps (See the Kami Training before the Saiyans). Mystic is just another case of having Gohan push to even higher heights.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 6, 2022 18:16:16 GMT
But pushing past one's limits is like the central theme of Dragon Ball. EVERY arc minus the first one is about character's meeting a wall and learning to get over it to reach new heights of power. It's never presented the idea that characters just hit a wall and that is as far as they can go, even characters who fall behind the Saiyans make staggering jumps (See the Kami Training before the Saiyans). Mystic is just another case of having Gohan push to even higher heights. Well it's a central theme of most shonen but they still have diminishing returns if it's a series with multiple transformations. Buu saga implied Goku and Vegeta only surpassed Teen Gohan in SSJ2 and BoG has base Goku weaker than Freeza. Goku unlocked multiple transformations in DBS and I don't think anyone is expecting him to surpass Beerus with anything below his strongest form.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2022 18:29:39 GMT
But pushing past one's limits is like the central theme of Dragon Ball. EVERY arc minus the first one is about character's meeting a wall and learning to get over it to reach new heights of power. It's never presented the idea that characters just hit a wall and that is as far as they can go, even characters who fall behind the Saiyans make staggering jumps (See the Kami Training before the Saiyans). Mystic is just another case of having Gohan push to even higher heights. Well it's a central theme of most shonen but they still have diminishing returns if it's a series with multiple transformations. Buu saga implied Goku and Vegeta only surpassed Teen Gohan in SSJ2 and BoG has base Goku weaker than Freeza. Goku unlocked multiple transformations in DBS and I don't think anyone is expecting him to surpass Beerus with anything below his strongest form. Those more power ups tie into that theme of getting stronger. Even in Super we see people like Krillin and Roshi train and break past their previous limits in the ToP build up and event itself. Saying Mystic is just "the end" for Gohan when no canon material ever said that awakening was as high as he'll ever go is a reach.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 6, 2022 18:53:12 GMT
Those more power ups tie into that theme of getting stronger. Even in Super we see people like Krillin and Roshi train and break past their previous limits in the ToP build up and event itself. Saying Mystic is just "the end" for Gohan when no canon material ever said that awakening was as high as he'll ever go is a reach. The humans are still weaker than the base Saiyans. I'm not sure how it's a reach when it's going by how the series presents transformations. You could still believe he can get stronger but there's going to be diminishing returns like with every transformation at some point unless you're arguing he'll surpass GoDs and all the beings above them. The disagreement is when those diminishing returns kick in.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2022 19:16:06 GMT
Those more power ups tie into that theme of getting stronger. Even in Super we see people like Krillin and Roshi train and break past their previous limits in the ToP build up and event itself. Saying Mystic is just "the end" for Gohan when no canon material ever said that awakening was as high as he'll ever go is a reach. The humans are still weaker than the base Saiyans. I'm not sure how it's a reach when it's going by how the series presents transformations. You could still believe he can get stronger but there's going to be diminishing returns like with every transformation at some point unless you're arguing he'll surpass GoDs and all the beings above them. The disagreement is when those diminishing returns kick in. O I mean, SSj4 and SSG/SSB are way higher boosts than what came before them. Even Gohan's Mystic improvement after training with Piccolo eclipses his power in the Buu Arc by a significant degree. "Diminishing returns" is just something that doesn't seem to come up in the series as each transformation each new increase in power moves over what came before it and represents that breaking of a new limit.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 6, 2022 19:33:17 GMT
O I mean, SSj4 and SSG/SSB are way higher boosts than what came before them. Even Gohan's Mystic improvement after training with Piccolo eclipses his power in the Buu Arc by a significant degree. "Diminishing returns" is just something that doesn't seem to come up in the series as each transformation each new increase in power moves over what came before it and represents that breaking of a new limit. We don't know how strong Toriyama intended for Gohan to be in the ToP since it varied in both versions. Super Hero has him regain Ultimate and it might only be as powerful as before. I'm curious how you define "diminishing returns" because you're basically describing it. Goku and Vegeta needing new transformations as a way of getting vastly stronger because previous forms slow down in growth is literally what it means. I gave a few examples since Goku and Vegeta were only confirmed to have surpassed SSJ2 Teen Gohan when they went SSJ2 and base Goku was still weaker than Freeza. This isn't specific to DBM since you'll find the same argument of diminishing returns in any DB forum going back decades. There's a theory for GT that Gohan could only reach SSJ4 Goku's power if he regrows his tail and achieves the form himself as in regular training would only get him so far. When fans believe Goku will only surpass Beerus with a fully mastered UI, it's because his previous forms had diminishing returns and he needed to unlock and master new forms to get to that level.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2022 19:55:06 GMT
O I mean, SSj4 and SSG/SSB are way higher boosts than what came before them. Even Gohan's Mystic improvement after training with Piccolo eclipses his power in the Buu Arc by a significant degree. "Diminishing returns" is just something that doesn't seem to come up in the series as each transformation each new increase in power moves over what came before it and represents that breaking of a new limit. We don't know how strong Toriyama intended for Gohan to be in the ToP since it varied in both versions. Super Hero has him regain Ultimate and it might only be as powerful as before. I'm curious how you define "diminishing returns" because you're basically describing it. Goku and Vegeta needing new transformations as a way of getting vastly stronger because previous forms slow down in growth is literally what it means. I gave a few examples since Goku and Vegeta were only confirmed to have surpassed SSJ2 Teen Gohan when they went SSJ2 and base Goku was still weaker than Freeza. This isn't specific to DBM since you'll find the same argument of diminishing returns in any DB forum going back decades. There's a theory for GT that Gohan could only reach SSJ4 Goku's power if he regrows his tail and achieves the form himself as in regular training would only get him so far. When fans believe Goku will only surpass Beerus with a fully mastered UI, it's because his previous forms had diminishing returns and he needed to unlock and master new forms to get to that level. I mean, even Gohan at his weakest in the manga side still left him tied with SS Kefla, which is might higher than his Buu Saga Power. Think that alone should be quite telling of Gohan's growth between then and a more current side of him. Gohan pretyy much is already a lot stronger than he was in Z and don't get how you think he might not be to be a bit blunt. Goku began Super with his base weaker than Frieza, but his base later on was strong enough to slap around SSj3 Gotenks. GT Goku's child base power was slated to be about as strong as his SSJ3 Z self and he slapped around Goten and Gohan in Super Saiyan states and his SS State was performing better against Super 17 than Majuub was. New power ups are a thing but the series doesn't present the idea that there is some arbitrary cap to one's base growth or that it doesn't exist. Hell Adult Gohan in Z was weaker than his teenage self cause he failed to maintain his training. Could mention how 17 (Someone with no power ups at all) was able to jump to SSj3 tier (Manga) or psuedo god tier in the anime of Super through training. Even going off the original manga Tien, Krillin and even Yamcha went from weaker than 23rd Budokai Goku to strong enough to stomp Raditz-tier opponents about a year training with Kami.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 6, 2022 20:07:00 GMT
I mean, even Gohan at his weakest in the manga side still left him tied with SS Kefla, which is might higher than his Buu Saga Power. Think that alone should be quite telling of Gohan's growth between then and a more current side of him. Gohan pretyy much is already a lot stronger than he was in Z and don't get how you think he might not be to be a bit blunt. Goku began Super with his base weaker than Frieza, but his base later on was strong enough to slap around SSj3 Gotenks. GT Goku's child base power was slated to be about as strong as his SSJ3 Z self and he slapped around Goten and Gohan in Super Saiyan states and his SS State was performing better against Super 17 than Majuub was. New power ups are a thing but the series doesn't present the idea that there is some arbitrary cap to one's base growth or that it doesn't exist. Hell Adult Gohan in Z was weaker than his teenage self cause he failed to maintain his training. Could mention how 17 (Someone with no power ups at all) was able to jump to SSj3 tier (Manga) or psuedo god tier in the anime of Super through training. Even going off the original manga Tien, Krillin and even Yamcha went from weaker than 23rd Budokai Goku to strong enough to stomp Raditz-tier opponents about a year training with Kami. Surpassing Raditz doesn't mean they'll continue getting stronger without limit since they were still weaker than the base Saiyans now. Tien declined using the HTC and Krillin was glad the kids couldn't compete because it would give him a better chance of winning any prize money in the Buu saga. You were using manga or anime only scenes but I was arguing what Toriyama has done based on what we know he wrote himself. I think you're still missing my point. You're claiming there's no cap to previous forms but that seems to be the only way they've unlocked new forms with training alone and how the story usually only noted the growth of their highest form. In your opinion, do you think Goku will surpass Beerus in any form besides UI? That would help me understand your view. If you believe there's no cap at all in any form, he should be able to surpass Beerus or anyone above him eventually in only base.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2022 20:34:18 GMT
I mean, even Gohan at his weakest in the manga side still left him tied with SS Kefla, which is might higher than his Buu Saga Power. Think that alone should be quite telling of Gohan's growth between then and a more current side of him. Gohan pretyy much is already a lot stronger than he was in Z and don't get how you think he might not be to be a bit blunt. Goku began Super with his base weaker than Frieza, but his base later on was strong enough to slap around SSj3 Gotenks. GT Goku's child base power was slated to be about as strong as his SSJ3 Z self and he slapped around Goten and Gohan in Super Saiyan states and his SS State was performing better against Super 17 than Majuub was. New power ups are a thing but the series doesn't present the idea that there is some arbitrary cap to one's base growth or that it doesn't exist. Hell Adult Gohan in Z was weaker than his teenage self cause he failed to maintain his training. Could mention how 17 (Someone with no power ups at all) was able to jump to SSj3 tier (Manga) or psuedo god tier in the anime of Super through training. Even going off the original manga Tien, Krillin and even Yamcha went from weaker than 23rd Budokai Goku to strong enough to stomp Raditz-tier opponents about a year training with Kami. Surpassing Raditz doesn't mean they'll continue getting stronger without limit since they were still weaker than the base Saiyans now. Tien declined using the HTC and Krillin was glad the kids couldn't compete because it would give him a better chance of winning any prize money in the Buu saga. You were using manga or anime only scenes but I was arguing what Toriyama has done based on what we know he wrote himself. I think you're still missing my point. You're claiming there's no cap to previous forms but that seems to be the only way they've unlocked new forms with training alone and how the story usually only noted the growth of their highest form. In your opinion, do you think Goku will surpass Beerus in any form besides UI? That would help me understand your view. If you believe there's no cap at all in any form, he should be able to surpass Beerus or anyone above him eventually in only base. I think the original point of this discussion was lost given my complaint of DBM's Mystic was that it awakened Gohan's max potential ever and he couldn't get higher past this or need to train at all to maintain this growth. Something never stated in the series itself at the time Salagir wrote DBM. The anime and manga of Super go off Toriyama's outline which is why I mentioned bits of both along with his original manga in my examples to show Toriyama's view on this topic. My point wasn't "base form can grow forever" just that characters do have a capacity to constantly improve themselves and break their previous ceilings which is a cornerstone theme of DB. Whether it is upping their base state, breaking into a new power up of some kind characters of all kinds have found ways to get stronger and beyond their previous ceilings. You seem to think that newer transformations contradict my point when if anything they are examples of it. Far as Goku vs. Beerus is concerned Goku won't be in position to surpass him till they have a fight again. So no I don't think he'd be able to beat Beerus in base, if you gave him some unrealistic like 100 year+ training his base would grow insane but this isn't End of GT hypotheticals.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 6, 2022 22:25:19 GMT
I think the original point of this discussion was lost given my complaint of DBM's Mystic was that it awakened Gohan's max potential ever and he couldn't get higher past this or need to train at all to maintain this growth. Something never stated in the series itself at the time Salagir wrote DBM. The anime and manga of Super go off Toriyama's outline which is why I mentioned bits of both along with his original manga in my examples to show Toriyama's view on this topic. My point wasn't "base form can grow forever" just that characters do have a capacity to constantly improve themselves and break their previous ceilings which is a cornerstone theme of DB. Whether it is upping their base state, breaking into a new power up of some kind characters of all kinds have found ways to get stronger and beyond their previous ceilings. You seem to think that newer transformations contradict my point when if anything they are examples of it. Far as Goku vs. Beerus is concerned Goku won't be in position to surpass him till they have a fight again. So no I don't think he'd be able to beat Beerus in base, if you gave him some unrealistic like 100 year+ training his base would grow insane but this isn't End of GT hypotheticals. Well I don't expect you to agree with any fan theory DBM went with. In old discussions about Ultimate Gohan unrelated to any fanfic, some fans believed the same thing that Gohan wouldn't get drastically stronger unless another form was introduced in the series. This was all based on how transformations were handled in manga but it's fine if you interpreted it differently. You'll hear it in DBS discussions since some predicting Goku will max out as stronger than Beerus but that no mortal can surpass the Angels. What you described about base surpassing Beerus is still example of diminishing returns since even in this hypothetical example he's not reaching it within his lifetime.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 6, 2022 23:31:50 GMT
I think the original point of this discussion was lost given my complaint of DBM's Mystic was that it awakened Gohan's max potential ever and he couldn't get higher past this or need to train at all to maintain this growth. Something never stated in the series itself at the time Salagir wrote DBM. The anime and manga of Super go off Toriyama's outline which is why I mentioned bits of both along with his original manga in my examples to show Toriyama's view on this topic. My point wasn't "base form can grow forever" just that characters do have a capacity to constantly improve themselves and break their previous ceilings which is a cornerstone theme of DB. Whether it is upping their base state, breaking into a new power up of some kind characters of all kinds have found ways to get stronger and beyond their previous ceilings. You seem to think that newer transformations contradict my point when if anything they are examples of it. Far as Goku vs. Beerus is concerned Goku won't be in position to surpass him till they have a fight again. So no I don't think he'd be able to beat Beerus in base, if you gave him some unrealistic like 100 year+ training his base would grow insane but this isn't End of GT hypotheticals. Well I don't expect you to agree with any fan theory DBM went with. In old discussions about Ultimate Gohan unrelated to any fanfic, some fans believed the same thing that Gohan wouldn't get drastically stronger unless another form was introduced in the series. This was all based on how transformations were handled in manga but it's fine if you interpreted it differently. You'll hear it in DBS discussions since some predicting Goku will max out as stronger than Beerus but that no mortal can surpass the Angels. What you described about base surpassing Beerus is still example of diminishing returns since even in this hypothetical example he's not reaching it within his lifetime. And that's fine, we don't have to agree on this. I just outline why I personally don't like the idea of Mystic that DBM chose to use for its story and why I believe it is a bit of an insult to the aspects of Dragon Ball I enjoy the most. I dislike Mystic already in canon DBM just has a worse version of it. I think we should just agree to disagree since this topic is being taken off the rails from the SSj3 prompt and I don't want to derail that convo anymore.
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Post by Blaze on Jun 6, 2022 23:39:09 GMT
Ooooh boy do I have thoughts related to this discussion. But firstly: Did the Manga even imply that once Gohan became Mystic he could never become stronger? It just unlocked his latent potential it was never presented as a "you'll never improve past this or turn it off" like DBM Don't see any implication that Gohan could never become stronger. But it was implied that he couldn't turn it off. He still has the form straight after he's brought back to life and iirc after he's taken out of Buu as well. It was intended to be a permanent change. At the time at least, seems to have been retconned by Toriyama (or just Toei?) in Super. Now, Dragon Ball often does have characters reaching limits and then just smashing through those. But there's usually some sort of impetus to break through those limits. Like, an alien of incredible strength showing up out of nowhere. Or drinking poison. Or androids causing the saiyans to try to reach beyond Super Saiyan. Now, arguably the Buu Arc was implying that they've gotten so powerful that they were reaching the limits of what was reasonable. As Skarr's mentioned, Goku only barely surpassed Cell Arc Gohan in his SSj2 form. And to go past that, he required the ridiculous SSj3 transformation which was unsustainable. And then you had fusion acting as another way to break past limits. And finally Gohan's latent potential being fully revealed. I think without some sort of new transformation or threat or whatever, it makes sense that the characters would all end up around the high Buu Arc levels of strength and not break through that. Just like if Raditz had never showed up, Goku and Piccolo wouldn't have gotten very strong. Having a *hard limit* as opposed to a soft one in the form of Gohan is more of a Salagir specific thing though, I reckon.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 7, 2022 0:56:18 GMT
And that's fine, we don't have to agree on this. I just outline why I personally don't like the idea of Mystic that DBM chose to use for its story and why I believe it is a bit of an insult to the aspects of Dragon Ball I enjoy the most. I dislike Mystic already in canon DBM just has a worse version of it. I think we should just agree to disagree since this topic is being taken off the rails from the SSj3 prompt and I don't want to derail that convo anymore. That's fine but I was more discussing the series and shonen in general and where that notion would come from. Almost all of them are about "surpassing their limits" but the characters are usually near their peak by the end which is why it's ending there. That's a difference between them and comics that have characters with literal unlimited potential to the point that they become nigh-omnipotent, alter all of reality, etc. In shonen, however strong you feel a character could get there's still some degree of limitations and diminishing returns. I think Gohan could still get stronger but surpassing Buutenks or Buuhan isn't the same as arguing he could surpass SSJ3 Vegetto a million times over. Before DBS, no one argued the characters could get strong enough to destroy the universe since not many series go that far. DBS raised what was possible in the original manga since Toriyama decided to keep the story going but there's still evidence of limits. The GoDs were once mortals with some training for millions of years old but still relatively close and far below the Angels. Same with all the strongest mortals so far like Jiren and Broly. That's why some fans believed the end of the line is Goku surpassing Beerus but accepting that beings like the Angels aren't possible to surpass.
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 11, 2022 17:23:17 GMT
I always took it as he unleashed Gohan’s full potential but his magic is what made the mystic upgrade so Gohan doesn’t go SS anymore but an enhanced base form. It is part Gohan’s power and part Old Kai’s magic to bring it out in sort of base form instead of needing to transform into Super Saiyan form. Mystic form is so damn confusing for me. 1) Gohan had his "potential unleashed" back on Namek (more evidence of Toriyama forgetting stuff.) 2) Can he get any stronger, or is literally at his maximum possible level? Seems to go against the concept of dragonball. 3) Back in Buu saga it was like it replaced his SSJ forms, but now he can just turn into the form in Super. But what is the point of using lesser more draining forms if Mystic is the same but with more power and none of the flaws? Hope the coming movie finally hashes out these problems. Yea, all things considered, I like how strong the humans were able to become in this book, that they can master kaioken and fight someone like Cold, though not his final form, and a Cell saga Cell Jr. It does annoy me that the only way to compete in DB is to be somesort of alien, preferably saiyan. (Worse that anime in general took the wrong message from this and are always loading their MC with shit to make them as strong as they want while quickly forgetting about the side characters.) I think it was just originally meant to be Gohan’s final power up. Toriyama wanted to make it different from Super Saiyan forms and returned to basics approach by giving Gohan black hair, but styling it and his shape into Super Saiyan form. Based on what Old Kai said in the manga and anime it was a more energy efficient power up, since he complained SS transformations wasted energy. That tracks with how Goku mentioned even SS1 had those flaws. It is likely all SS forms strain their bodies and drains their energy faster than normal. Gohan’s power up was meant to be opposite. It goes with subverting expectations Toriyama likes when he makes final forms of Freeza and Cell shorter and less intimidating than their previous forms. It is likely when DB returned after 20 years since GT ended that Toriyama just forgot things. A interview that said someone had to remind him about SS3 when they were making BoG movie. It doesn’t surprise me with why Super treats Mystic form as temporary transformation like the SS forms and seems different from how it originally worked. New DB does this a from time to time. It is like how in the movies SS2 and SS3 stopped being used because they were deemed as unnecessary or forced forms by Toriyama a few years ago which is different from how they were presented as legitimate upgrades of SS forms. Now SSG and SSGSS/SSB are seen as the true successors to SS form and natural forms. Just some things are bond to change or be forgotten since there is just such a large gap from when the author originally finished the story to him continuing it now.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 12, 2022 0:27:34 GMT
Mystic form is so damn confusing for me. 1) Gohan had his "potential unleashed" back on Namek (more evidence of Toriyama forgetting stuff.) 2) Can he get any stronger, or is literally at his maximum possible level? Seems to go against the concept of dragonball. 3) Back in Buu saga it was like it replaced his SSJ forms, but now he can just turn into the form in Super. But what is the point of using lesser more draining forms if Mystic is the same but with more power and none of the flaws? Hope the coming movie finally hashes out these problems. Yea, all things considered, I like how strong the humans were able to become in this book, that they can master kaioken and fight someone like Cold, though not his final form, and a Cell saga Cell Jr. It does annoy me that the only way to compete in DB is to be somesort of alien, preferably saiyan. (Worse that anime in general took the wrong message from this and are always loading their MC with shit to make them as strong as they want while quickly forgetting about the side characters.) I think it was just originally meant to be Gohan’s final power up. Toriyama wanted to make it different from Super Saiyan forms and returned to basics approach by giving Gohan black hair, but styling it and his shape into Super Saiyan form. Based on what Old Kai said in the manga and anime it was a more energy efficient power up, since he complained SS transformations wasted energy. That tracks with how Goku mentioned even SS1 had those flaws. It is likely all SS forms strain their bodies and drains their energy faster than normal. Gohan’s power up was meant to be opposite. It goes with subverting expectations Toriyama likes when he makes final forms of Freeza and Cell shorter and less intimidating than their previous forms. It is likely when DB returned after 20 years since GT ended that Toriyama just forgot things. A interview that said someone had to remind him about SS3 when they were making BoG movie. It doesn’t surprise me with why Super treats Mystic form as temporary transformation like the SS forms and seems different from how it originally worked. New DB does this a from time to time. It is like how in the movies SS2 and SS3 stopped being used because they were deemed as unnecessary or forced forms by Toriyama a few years ago which is different from how they were presented as legitimate upgrades of SS forms. Now SSG and SSGSS/SSB are seen as the true successors to SS form and natural forms. Just some things are bond to change or be forgotten since there is just such a large gap from when the author originally finished the story to him continuing it now. What makes this dumb is we just got done with the previous arc of Goku and Gohan "mastering" Super Saiyan so that it didn't waste energy. To the point that they could just casually chill in that state as if it were a base form, but Old Kai cries it is a waste of energy anyway.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 12, 2022 11:57:22 GMT
What makes this dumb is we just got done with the previous arc of Goku and Gohan "mastering" Super Saiyan so that it didn't waste energy. To the point that they could just casually chill in that state as if it were a base form, but Old Kai cries it is a waste of energy anyway. Well they removed most of the strain but Goku said they couldn't sleep in it so there might've been a small amount left. Old Kai meant all of them since the strain seemed to get worse the higher the form. Old Kai presumably unlocked SSJ3 for Gohan since he surpassed it but gave him access to all his power in base so no energy is wasted in any form. In the end it didn't matter since Gohan got absorbed anyway!
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Post by Son Pan on Jun 12, 2022 13:12:16 GMT
What makes this dumb is we just got done with the previous arc of Goku and Gohan "mastering" Super Saiyan so that it didn't waste energy. To the point that they could just casually chill in that state as if it were a base form, but Old Kai cries it is a waste of energy anyway. Well they removed most of the strain but Goku said they couldn't sleep in it so there might've been a small amount left. Old Kai meant all of them since the strain seemed to get worse the higher the form. Old Kai presumably unlocked SSJ3 for Gohan since he surpassed it but gave him access to all his power in base so no energy is wasted in any form. In the end it didn't matter since Gohan got absorbed anyway! I also took Old Kai’s statement was about all the Super Saiyan transformations in general. SS3 having such high cost always came to my mind when he made that statement. In general I do feel like energy consumption always felt more like a informed flaw rather than a true one to me until Buu arc. I liked we got to see the weaknesses of SS transformations actually come into play in the story though. Back to SS3 topic in general. I agree with whoever said the concept behind the stronger the user of SS3 is shorter the transformation idea was made to put limits on Vegetto. The SS3 problem only impacts Vegetto and Gotenks who are both so stupid strong it makes SS3 last in seconds. Goku and the others can at least use the form for longer periods of time. If we keep the same idea of limiting Vegetto and keeping his power the pinnacle of DB universe I would have preferred SS3 just makes Vegetto so powerful now that even his casual blasts have the potential of destroying the whole planet he is on. It becomes less about Vegetto cannot maintain the form because of his strength is too great, but rather that his strength is so great now that using his full power risks destroying everyone even when he is trying to hold back. This way SS3 drawbacks do not need to exaggerated more while we give a whole new reason to limit Vegetto and fusions in general from using it.
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