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Post by Solus on Aug 27, 2021 20:47:25 GMT
After years in this forum I still havn't found out how to separate quotes It's not hard. all you have to do is to to the copy & paste the "quote": Example:This is how your post look in the BBCode: And that's how it looks when it get post: After years in this forum I still havn't found out how to separate quotes, so I'll try to adress your points all together.
First, I agree, that the fight could have been handled better. You made some good points (like summoning ghosts as a pre-warn-system), others were wrong though. I think, what you failed to realise, when you compare U13 Vegeta's fight against Raichi with Gast's fight, is that Raichi had no idea how strong Vegeta really was. So he summoned out a few of his ghosts to gauge his enemy. Then he tried it with psycho games. And lastly he summoned his strongest warriors, but even most them didn't make a difference, as Vegeta swiped half of them away with one attack. That is, what would have happened to all of them if Raichi had summoned them against Gast, since Gast is way stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta. The wearing down tactic could only pay off, because Raichi's second league of ghosts were strong enough to hurt Vegeta. But there were no ghosts at Raichi's disposal that could have done the same with Gast - except the two he actually summoned. What you also seem to miss is the fact, that Raichi's ghosts have a respawn time, which seems to last longer than an average round takes. So if he spammed all of his ghosts pointlessly, they wouldn't be available in the next round (unless Buu recharges him again). That's why he didn't recall Broly. He couldn't resummon him, if he did.
And for the question, why Raichi didn't summon Hatchyak directly: The comic doesn't say something explicit to this, but I don't think, that Raichi could have done that. It seems that Hatchyak was some kind of final protocol. It surely would have come in handy to have such a strong fighter guarding him against Vegeta, don't you think?
And that's how you separate in the BBCode: And it will look like this: After years in this forum I still havn't found out how to separate quotes, so I'll try to adress your points all together.
First, I agree, that the fight could have been handled better. You made some good points (like summoning ghosts as a pre-warn-system), others were wrong though. I think, what you failed to realise, when you compare U13 Vegeta's fight against Raichi with Gast's fight, is that Raichi had no idea how strong Vegeta really was. So he summoned out a few of his ghosts to gauge his enemy. Then he tried it with psycho games. And lastly he summoned his strongest warriors, but even most them didn't make a difference, as Vegeta swiped half of them away with one attack. That is, what would have happened to all of them if Raichi had summoned them against Gast, since Gast is way stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta. The wearing down tactic could only pay off, because Raichi's second league of ghosts were strong enough to hurt Vegeta. But there were no ghosts at Raichi's disposal that could have done the same with Gast - except the two he actually summoned. What you also seem to miss is the fact, that Raichi's ghosts have a respawn time, which seems to last longer than an average round takes. So if he spammed all of his ghosts pointlessly, they wouldn't be available in the next round (unless Buu recharges him again). That's why he didn't recall Broly. He couldn't resummon him, if he did.
And for the question, why Raichi didn't summon Hatchyak directly: The comic doesn't say something explicit to this, but I don't think, that Raichi could have done that. It seems that Hatchyak was some kind of final protocol. It surely would have come in handy to have such a strong fighter guarding him against Vegeta, don't you think?
I hope this will help you. And how can I quote several posts from different people? In any case, thank you very much. I hope, I'll remember it, when I need it next time.
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Post by Solus on Aug 27, 2021 21:08:53 GMT
But onto your point, okay, and even if that was true how would Raichi have any better understanding of how strong Gast is vs. Vegeta? Raichi had access to Cell Jr., so he must have data how strong Cell Jr. is. He got access to Cell Jr. in the first place, because Gast killed this Cell Jr. without breaking a sweat. So Raichi does know, that Gast is at least strong enough to defeat the strongest ghost he had up to the fight against Vegeta. And as Vegeta could do the same as SSJ3, it was worth a try to put Vegeta in the battle. It's all about calculations. If Vegeta SSJ2 = Cell Jr. and both could defeat every other fighter in Raichi's repertoire with a casual ki attack, then it's clear that Gast, who is obviously stronger than Cell Jr., could do the same to any ghost Raichi had. The point is more some support on top of the two heavys would've only been a net benefit if he had any desire to win the match. Can't worry about the next round if you don't make it there (Which he did not). My point was more if Raichi only cared about doing the absolute "strongest" thing he could do and nothing else, he'd have smashed the Hatchiyack machine itself and just competed at Hatchiyack since after all it is "stronger" than his other ghosts. If that is the only rational or thing that matters in how you paint this fight. Thing is, as far as I understand, that Raichi really wanted to do something with his wish. He had something like a mission, but Hatchyak didn't discriminate between friend or foe. So even if Raichi knew about Hatchyak (which I'm not sure he did), then he might not want to risk freeing him, if that meant, that Raichi himself had to sacrifice himself for that. Also, you are right with saying "Can't worry about the next round if you don't make it there". But it goes in both ways. Why win this round, if you have no follow up? Raichi didn't aim to come as far as possible for the honor. He wanted to win to have a wish. He couldn't get that if he didn't had anything left for the next round and he also couldn't get that, if he died and Hatchyak continued in his stead.
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Post by عمار on Aug 27, 2021 21:11:34 GMT
And how can I quote several posts from different people? Easy, right-click on the "Quote" button & open new window for each post you want to quote, then you go to the BBCode section of each one, you copy what's in them & you put them all in one post. In any case, thank you very much. I hope, I'll remember it, when I need it next time. You're welcome.
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Post by godjacob on Aug 27, 2021 21:33:44 GMT
But onto your point, okay, and even if that was true how would Raichi have any better understanding of how strong Gast is vs. Vegeta? Raichi had access to Cell Jr., so he must have data how strong Cell Jr. is. He got access to Cell Jr. in the first place, because Gast killed this Cell Jr. without breaking a sweat. So Raichi does know, that Gast is at least strong enough to defeat the strongest ghost he had up to the fight against Vegeta. And as Vegeta could do the same as SSJ3, it was worth a try to put Vegeta in the battle. It's all about calculations. If Vegeta SSJ2 = Cell Jr. and both could defeat every other fighter in Raichi's repertoire with a casual ki attack, then it's clear that Gast, who is obviously stronger than Cell Jr., could do the same to any ghost Raichi had. First off Broly was his strongest servant, not Cell Jr., which you yourself had admitted earlier. Gast was able to casually stomp Cell Jr.. where as Vegeta needed SSj3 to dispose of him, and Raichi least knew or could guess Gast was holding back a great deal so on projections it doesn't seem like SSj3 Vegeta would be much more useful and he'd end up "wasting" him. The fact SSJ3 Vegeta ended up being super effective on Gast said a lot less about him than it did Raichi's guess work, when the "safe" bet would've been to just use Broly alone. The point is more some support on top of the two heavys would've only been a net benefit if he had any desire to win the match. Can't worry about the next round if you don't make it there (Which he did not). My point was more if Raichi only cared about doing the absolute "strongest" thing he could do and nothing else, he'd have smashed the Hatchiyack machine itself and just competed at Hatchiyack since after all it is "stronger" than his other ghosts. If that is the only rational or thing that matters in how you paint this fight. Thing is, as far as I understand, that Raichi really wanted to do something with his wish. He had something like a mission, but Hatchyak didn't discriminate between friend or foe. So even if Raichi knew about Hatchyak (which I'm not sure he did), then he might not want to risk freeing him, if that meant, that Raichi himself had to sacrifice himself for that. Also, you are right with saying "Can't worry about the next round if you don't make it there". But it goes in both ways. Why win this round, if you have no follow up? Raichi didn't aim to come as far as possible for the honor. He wanted to win to have a wish. He couldn't get that if he didn't had anything left for the next round and he also couldn't get that, if he died and Hatchyak continued in his stead. But Hatchiyack would gave an "objective" better chance of making it to the end for that wish, Hatchiyack can speak so he isn't an unintelligible brute (Even if he acts like it) and again losing to Gast means he doesn't get the wish anyway. If you win the round, then you can try and recoop what losses you have for a chance in the following round, where as if you use only the bare minimum ghosts and they fail with no support you are screwed. Which Raichi was if we go on the premise he wasn't aware of Hatchiyack and what ended up happening. And this ignores the fact that you could easily have worked to have Raichi to have other useful ghosts he'd have not used on Vegeta, given he had decided not to withdraw after seeing Broly & Vegito duke it out so he had to believe he had a chance against either. Having some new ghosts with some niche skills to give Gast trouble would've added an exciting element to a match that had no reason to be as dull as it turned out to be. You don't only have to pick between having Raichi be flashy vs. Raichi be in "character" and effective. And a blend of both would've made the match better than what it was.
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Post by Solus on Aug 28, 2021 10:00:32 GMT
And this ignores the fact that you could easily have worked to have Raichi to have other useful ghosts he'd have not used on Vegeta, given he had decided not to withdraw after seeing Broly & Vegito duke it out so he had to believe he had a chance against either. Having some new ghosts with some niche skills to give Gast trouble would've added an exciting element to a match that had no reason to be as dull as it turned out to be. I'm not even sure, if I want to continue to argue here. Because you are overall right in that the fight could have been longer without being dull. All in all it might have been just a question of time and pacing for the comic. However, I think handling the fight as it was, is justifiable and doesn't make the fight bad. Have you seen the last fight of Obi Wan vs. Maul? A lot of people argue over and over if it should have been an epic battle or if was ok the way it was. Gast vs. Raichi might be similar in that regard.[/div] First off Broly was his strongest servant, not Cell Jr., which you yourself had admitted earlier. Gast was able to casually stomp Cell Jr.. where as Vegeta needed SSj3 to dispose of him, and Raichi least knew or could guess Gast was holding back a great deal so on projections it doesn't seem like SSj3 Vegeta would be much more useful and he'd end up "wasting" him. The fact SSJ3 Vegeta ended up being super effective on Gast said a lot less about him than it did Raichi's guess work, when the "safe" bet would've been to just use Broly alone. About Broly: I didn't admit he was the strongest, I said he would stand a chance against Gast. We could now argue over and over how strong Raichi's Broly was. I assume that he wasn't much stronger than original Movie 8 Broly, because he fought against SSJ Vegeta (U02) and didn't immediately crush him. Being able to stand up to Gast doesn't have to mean (in this particular case) that he is of a similar power level. Broly was just invincible, so none of Gast's regular attacks would work on him. Therefore he is the perfect tank to support U13 Vegeta. He didn't do any harm to Gast either, he just held him back on several occasions so that Vegeta could deal damage to him. I suppose, that Raichi wasn't fully aware of how Broly worked and learned how to operate him during the tournament, hence the failure to utilitize him against U13 Vegeta in the second round. He obviously learned from his mistake. In conclusion (that is, if my assumption about U03 Broly's power level is correct) Broly alone wouldn't do anything against Gast, since he was only a supporter. But that of course is only speculation, based on the observation that Vegeta and Gast seemed to trade blows evenly. If Broly would have been on the same level as those two, he alone could have defeated Gast. But Hatchiyack would gave an "objective" better chance of making it to the end for that wish, Hatchiyack can speak so he isn't an unintelligible brute (Even if he acts like it) and again losing to Gast means he doesn't get the wish anyway. If you win the round, then you can try and recoop what losses you have for a chance in the following round, where as if you use only the bare minimum ghosts and they fail with no support you are screwed. Which Raichi was if we go on the premise he wasn't aware of Hatchiyack and what ended up happening. Another speculation, but Hatchyak isn't Raichi, is he? Super Buu also didn't want Vegeta to free Fat Buu, because according to his own words, he wouldn't be the same any more. I guess, Hatchyak is shares the values of Raichi as much as Kid Buu shares his with Super Buu.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 28, 2021 23:35:36 GMT
Someone on here came up with a great revision of how to do the Raichi and Gats fight that kept the conclusion mostly the same, but added dialogue and showed off more ghosts were used. I forgot which thread it was in, but it was really good. I believe they even mentioned using Tapion Ghost as a good defense. That way when Gast tried to attack Raichi Tapion could use Hirudergarn and its magic to defend them. While SS3 Vegeta and Broly to attack and some minor ghosts to play support. That way it feels like Raichi is using ghosts and their abilities to try to bring down Gast, but in a way where it feels believable that weaker ghosts could work at all. I do feel like ghost Broly not being uncontrollable in LSS form is to make up for invincible ability Broly has would make Raichi nearly unbeatable. Not defending, but just saying how making LSS invincible has trick down effect on how he is used outside of the Vegetto fight. Gast would eventually come out on top by taking out the ghosts with clever tactics or use of magic all while Raich and Gast debate over revenge and acceptance. Of course this might be a two chapter fight, but if the content is good I think people would have been fine.
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Post by godjacob on Aug 28, 2021 23:52:29 GMT
Someone on here came up with a great revision of how to do the Raichi and Gats fight that kept the conclusion mostly the same, but added dialogue and showed off more ghosts were used. I forgot which thread it was in, but it was really good. I believe they even mentioned using Tapion Ghost as a good defense. That way when Gast tried to attack Raichi Tapion could use Hirudergarn and its magic to defend them. While SS3 Vegeta and Broly to attack and some minor ghosts to play support. That way it feels like Raichi is using ghosts and their abilities to try to bring down Gast, but in a way where it feels believable that weaker ghosts could work at all. I do feel like ghost Broly not being uncontrollable in LSS form is to make up for invincible ability Broly has would make Raichi nearly unbeatable. Not defending, but just saying how making LSS invincible has trick down effect on how he is used outside of the Vegetto fight. Gast would eventually come out on top by taking out the ghosts with clever tactics or use of magic all while Raich and Gast debate over revenge and acceptance. Of course this might be a two chapter fight, but if the content is good I think people would have been fine. This right here fixes 90% of the issues I have with the battle on its own, minus the whole Broly disobeys Raichi at a critical moment to allow Gast to win bit. I feel a better compromise given indeed a true Invincible Broly Ghost would be a hassle to write around would be instead of Broly randomly dipping is have the ghost Broly be perhaps unstable the longer it is in use; like he is flowing with so much unending hate the Hatchiyack machine has trouble maintaining a solid form. Just something anything other than what actually happened.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 30, 2021 0:08:33 GMT
A battle I want to change is U20 special and how Broly won. I just didn't like how it played out and was the worst of the three Broly specials we got by far. There were some cool ideas, but Ultimate Good Buu is too broken in terms of how many abilities it has and being smart enough to use them to their full potential that it is just too hard to write a believable way for Broly to win against that. One major change I would make right off the bat is to never have the heroes come up with that plan. The special could have stayed the same up until everyone senses Broly coming to Earth. Instead of Goku teleporting his family to safety he'll teleport to Broly right away so he doesn't destroy the Earth. In his rush Goku leaves everyone else. Uub and the others are left wondering what is happening. Gohan comes over with his family and fills everyone in on Broly. Goku intercepts Broly before he lands on Earth and before Broly can react Goku teleports them to the first planet where he can sense ki from. Goku wants to keep Broly from destroying Earth. We'll say it is some random planet Goku visited post Kid Buu defeat or he learned about the planet from one of the dead warriors he met in Other World. The most important thing is the world has a small population, mostly deserted, and away from Earth.
Goku goes SS3 right away. First he would easily overwhelm Broly, since Broly in his LSS state is only as strong as SS2 for the moment (not much stronger than he was in Second Coming Broly special). Goku knowing from experience the longer the fight drags on the stronger Broly will get unleashes huge attacks to try to shock Broly out of the LSS state. However, Broly will endure the barrage of attacks and keep fighting back. Here we'll see Goku use Super Kamehamaha and Super Dragon Fist on Broly, playing up the spectacle of it to highlight on fan service fans might want with SS3 Goku vs LSS Broly. At first Broly just gets batted around and overwhelmed by Goku's sheer power, but it wouldn't be enough to shock him out of the LSS form. With each failed attack Broly would continue to power up. Eventually Goku stops being able to easily beat Broly back and start having trouble keeping up with him. SS3 drains his ki and since he used a lot of powerful ki attacks earlier Goku would be losing ki as fast as Broly gains ki. Broly's power would grow passed Goku's and the tables would turn very quickly against Goku. Before Broly can kill him Gohan kicks Broly away from Goku. That is when we see Kibito Kai, Vegeta, Gohan, and Mr. Buu. The first chapter ends on that hero shot.
The second chapter would start with Goku asking how Kibto Kai knew to help them. We learn Piccolo called King Kai who informed the Supreme Kai of the situation. Kibito Kai teleported to Earth, gathered Gohan, Vegeta, and Mr. Buu to help Goku. Mr. Buu start to heal Goku while Gohan goes after Broly alone. The second legendary fan service battle starts, this time LSS Broly vs. Mystic Gohan. Like the first battle Gohan starts off much stronger than Broly and easily beats him down without much effort. Goku wonders why Vegeta isn't helping and why Goten and Trunks aren't here. Vegeta answers they only want to use Gotenks as a last resort and that Vegeta has to save his power for their plan. Like with Goku's battle we just see Gohan trying to unleash powerful ki blasts trying to take out Broly, but failing to shock him out of LSS form. Broly keeps powering up, gradually closing the gap between himself and Gohan, but Gohan turns out to just be distracting Broly. Once Goku is finished healing Vegeta tells him the plan is for them and Buu to fire off a joint ki blast and try to blast Broly into the sun successfully this time around. Vegeta goes SS3, saying while he is still trying to find a better alternative to SS3 that they need its raw power for the plan to work. Goku goes SS3, he Vegeta, and Mr. Buu start charging a giant ki blast.
Gohan still has the upper hand against Broly. He can sense the others are about to put their plan into action. Gohan pushes Broly back as far as he can and gets out of the way. Goku and Buu will fire a Kamehamaha and Vegeta will fire Final Flash. The three attacks hit Broly head on and start hurling him straight at the sun. However, since Broly has become much stronger while fighting Gohan he'll be able to fight against the joint blast and struggle to hold his ground, shocking Kibito Kai. As Broly starts trying to push the blast back we hear Kamehamaha chant and see Gohan was charging a Super Kamemahaha to help out. He fires the iconic attack along side the other three blasts and they quickly overwhelm Broly. He gets sent back toward the sun. Broly is unable to stop the combined blast raw power. The others sigh in relief that they have won when Broly fires off a ki blast into the star he is being pushed to. The blast destroys it and causing a massive explosion that engulfs the solar system they are currently in. Before the explosion can reach our heroes Kibito Kai teleports them back to Earth. To everyone's horror Broly's ki hasn't disappeared at all and is only getting stronger. That is how the second chapter ends.
The third and final chapter would start with the group moving on with their next plan. Mr. Buu heals the Saiyans, while Kibito Kai takes Gotenks to confront Broly. Gotenks would start things off as SS2, so as not to reduce his fusion time unless he absolutely needs to. Since Gotenks is stronger than he was as a child the adult Gotenks at SS2 is stronger than Mystic Gohan, but still weaker than SS1 Vegetto. SS2 Gotenks and Broly clash in space to start a new legendary battle. Meanwhile on Earth Piccolo explains that if Gotenks fails to stop Broly that Gotenks will restrain him long enough to have Buu use his magic to transform Broly into candy. Piccolo thinks the only way to overcome Broly's invincibility will be to use magic to transform Broly's body into something else. Kibito Kai teleports back to Earth for the next stage of their plan. Back at the battle Gotenks holds his own and uses his classic techniques like turning Broly into a volleyball or Super Ghost Kamikaze to confuse and frustrate Broly. Like with Goku and Gohan they fail to shock Broly out of the form and his power grows so rapidly that is nearing SS2 Gotenks in power. That is when Kibito Kai comes back with Mr. Buu. Gotenks restrains Broly with Galactic Donuts. Just before Buu can turn him into chocolate Broly shocks everyone by breaking out of Gotenks' restraints and unleashes a massive explosion from his body. The blast is so expansive and powerful that it kills Kibito Kai and Mr. Buu outright, but seriously wounds Gotenks. The wounded Gotenks has lost too much power to be able to fight Broly evenly anymore and is forced to go SS3 to keep up. His extensive injuries, the taxing nature of SS3, and major loss of ki puts Gotenks in a rough spot. His power doesn't grow as large as it would have naturally. Gotenks is only just a little bit stronger than Broly's current power instead of massively so as he would have been had he transformed into SS3 at his peak condition.
The others sense Buu and Kibito Kai's deaths and Gotenks massive drop in power. With the plan completely ruined everyone panics as Broly is too strong to stop now and without Buu's magic they are forced to rely on raw power being enough to shock Broly out of his LSS form. With no options left Goku and Vegeta prepare to use the fusion dance themselves. Goku teleports himself, Vegeta, Gohan, and Uub back to the fight. By the time they get there Gotenks fusion broke down already. Thanks to his injuries the fusion ended faster than it should have. Unfortunately they can only watch as Broly kills Goten and Trunks. Enraged Gohan attacks Broly while Goku and Vegeta attempt to fuse. Gohan tries his best to avenge his brother and friend, but is no longer a match for Broly, who has eclipses Gohan's power. Broly is easily beats Gohan back. Just as Broly is about to kill Gohan with a ki blast Uub uses Transcended Kaioken to discharge Broly's own blast before he throws it in hopes of saving Gohan and stopping the monster. Goku and Vegeta do the dance, but thanks to Vegeta's inexperience he makes a wrong move and the fusion is imperfect. A old skiny Gogeta is made. To their horror Uub's use of Kaioken was too much for his body and the strain killed him. Gohan is still alive, but he is in no shape to battle. Gogeta takes Uub's lifeless body and Gohan in hopes of teleporting back to Earth. They plan to use the time chamber's accelerated time to defuse and refuse again before Broly comes to Earth only for Broly punch a hole through the Imperfect Gogeta just as he teleporting to Earth. Sadly he teleports Broly back to Earth along with everyone else right before he dies, much to Gohan's horror. All Gohan can do is watch as Broly creates a massive ki blast ready to destroy the Earth. Back where Chi-chi, Videl, and Pan are they ask Piccolo what is happening. Piccolo can only reply they are doomed. Broly hurls the attack at the Earth, Gohan tries to fire a Kamehamaha to stop it, but his blast is too weak. The Earth is destroyed, killing everyone on the planet, but the explosion is so massive that it ends up destroying the entire solar system. From Other World Old Kai watches in horror and realizes this is the end of the universe.
The chapter ends with narration that Broly went on to destroy the universe with no one to challenge him. The setup is basic. It could get a bit repetitive since the characters keep trying to fight Broly to shock him out of the form or distract him while the other prepare a new attack. This special would be even longer with three chapters. On the bright side I think by playing it safe and relying fan favorite fights people talked about that more audiences might be forgiving of a special being so long or at worse this special just gets spaced out between the main story. The characters would fail, but their failures would be rooted in the uncertainty of how to shock Broly out of the LSS form. Their only experience of doing it is throwing huge attacks at him. Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks would all do that in their fights with Broly so it doesn't feel like they are holding the idiot ball like when Ultimate Good Buu was when he started punching instead of trying to hold him down and use his magic to try to turn him into something else. Goku rushing off to fight Broly isn't inherently stupid since he fears Broly will destroy the Earth as soon as he land this time. He knows his SS3 form he is much stronger than Broly's current power at the moment. Taking Broly to somewhere else and starting at SS3 immediately to try to end things quickly while rash still has some sense to it. It just fails, because SS3 drains Goku's ki, while LSS lets Broly's grow. The down downside to Goku throwing big attacks right away to try to shock Broly out of LSS is that it eats away at his ki.
The plans to stop Broly are mostly stopped because the LSS invincibility and group just not getting lucky this time around. Things like Broly blowing up a star or getting mad and unleashing a huge ki attacks aren't beyond things Broly is likely to do in his berserk state. They just happen occur at the wrong time for our heroes. Kibito Kai dying in the blast along side Mr. Buu means the remaining potara they have are gone, so there is no chance for them to form Vegetto. They are forced to rely on the dance, which fails because Vegeta doesn't have a lot of time to practice it the same way Trunks and Goten did. Gotenks getting seriously wounded in the same blast that kills Kibtio Kai and Mr. Buu is two fold. Gotenks getting caught unguarded causes him to lose a massive amount of ki. It makes it so Broly's power doesn't grow too rapidly to justify Gotenks early loss. At the same time it explains why U20 Broly we meet in the tournament isn't on SS1 Vegetto's level from the start, since he needed to power up a bit before he caught up and surpassed SS1 Vegetto. U20 is just the universe where luck wasn't on the gang's side like in other universes. They failed to shock Broly out of the LSS state, as a result Broly endured all their attempts until he surpassed them in power. It is still a Broly wank special, but it follows what DBM established. Even with that there is still a chance the heroes might have won if Buu had been able to hit him with magic, or Gogeta fusion had been successful. At the very least I feel their defeat in this scenario is easier to swallow than the special we got.
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Post by Solus on Sept 2, 2021 8:23:32 GMT
Son Pan I'm a writer myself and sometimes I struggle to find a good way to come grom point A to B. I then always ask friends to brainstorm with me, but their problem is, that they don't know all the details of the story, so a quick solution can't be found. I always wanted to have people like you to give feedback to my story, because usually the author themselves can't see their own plotholes. The problem with that is, that you have to be super deep inside the story to be able to come up with alternative solutions, which nobody is in my case.
I really like the thoughts you put into this special and in hindsight I can say, that I would have liked that version better, especially because it doesn't need that stupid deus ex machina part with the black hole at the end.
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Post by Skarr on Sept 9, 2021 23:42:41 GMT
Someone on here came up with a great revision of how to do the Raichi and Gats fight that kept the conclusion mostly the same, but added dialogue and showed off more ghosts were used. I think I wrote that one. I forgot what I wrote exactly since it's been a few years but I just remembered writing a longer version of that fight. From what I do remember: -Gast powers up to one-shot U13 Vegeta. -Raichi sends out all of his ghosts and Gast uses a giant kiai to wipe most of them out except Hirudegarn who turns to smoke to avoid it. -Gast learns from Vegetto's Dragon Flash to make his own Dragon Fist with Porunga to kill Hirudegarn. -He calmly walks over to Raichi now that he's out of ghosts and destroys the orb not knowing that Raichi himself is a ghost. -Hatchiyak appears and same happens from there. The fight would still be relatively short since most of the ghosts were fodder to SSJ2 Vegeta and the same sneak attack wouldn't work on Gast who can regenerate. It would just be cool to see Gast take them all out easily before destroying the orb.
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Post by drewsaga on Sept 12, 2021 21:20:40 GMT
With all the fights that have gone down, some have been better received than others. That said, if you had author control, a team of artists on par of Asura, to act as massive edit button... which of the fights we have seen would you have changed. Either outcome of the fight, or just what happened during the fight itself. Since I know one fight most people will probably focus on, I'm gonna be a little different. I would have changed how the U 13 Kakarot vs U 18 Vegeta, and how it went down. For me, this battle had a lot of hype building up to it, with both fighters wanting to surpass their own universes partners/ rivals. (IE Vegeta wanting to beat Goku, Kakarot wanting to beat Vegeta). We got some focus early on to U18 Vegeta hyping himself for the fight. www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/page-106.html#h_readWe got sprinkles of his motivation for facing Kakarot throughout the tournament. Not to mention, U18 veggie probably wanting to get some payback on Kakarot for his treatment of Pan during their fight. What we got though was a quick one nearly one sided curb stomp of Kakarot from Vegeta, who no longer seemed to have any interest of his fight whatsoever. www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/page-1047.html#h_readI was fine with Kakarot going SSJ Ape form, and more than fine with him losing. But that fight just felt really rushed for all the hype surrounding. Kakarot threw one blast, then gets his tail ripped out after attempting to crush vegeta. I would have had Kakarot give Vegeta a few more pummelings as big Ape form, or at least the two of them trading a few more blows. Once vegeta managed to rip the tail off, have kakarot manage to still go after him with a few more swings, perhaps getting in a kick to vegeta's face or something, all while Vegeta smugly deconstructs him the same way he did Semi Perfect Cell and managing to beat him down, before delivering the final blow. I have no idea what the fuck was the point of this part View AttachmentThe fight as it is now, was over in about 4 moves, as i'm not counting Kakarots failure joke blast as a move, and felt very underwhelming for all the wait and build up to it. I would have had Goku vs Frieza where Goku fights and beats Frieza without going SSJ to show his fighting skills and techniques, sure, it would put a damper on the idea of base Saiyans being weaker than Frieza but Goku and Vegeta's base should be fairly close to Frieza anyways at this stage. Plus Frieza is still technically stronger than base Goku in this scenario so it would be a very interesting fight since physically Frieza has the upperhand if Goku handicaps himself Or alternate scenario, Frieza unlocks his 5th Form in a fit of rage because he can't even beat Goku in his base form and Goku is then forced to use SSJ or Kaioken to beat him. Basically 6th Form Cold/Ginyu vs Bra except it's 4th Form Frieza vs Goku.
As for Vegeta vs Oozaru Kakarotto, I think that fight went just fine, if anything I wouldn't have changed the dumb multiplier from 10x to 2x since there is literally zero reason for doing that. But I think that fight was just fine, Kakarotto should have never stood any chance even with SSJ Oozaru and it would be a joke to drag on what should have been a one-sided matchup, now if he had SSJ2 Oozaru, oh boy would that be something!
As for other fights, I can't think of too many that could have been done better aside from Goku vs Frieza like I mentioned. I mean sure, Bra vs Cold was based on a stupid bet but if you got rid of the bet, Bra wins with SSJ hands down.
Edit: Oh yes, Gast vs Raichi, that fight should have Hirudegarn and Tapion (though to be fair, Tapion would probably get pulverized by 1000G if he didn't immediately release his monster since he could barely handle 100G).
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Post by drewsaga on Sept 12, 2021 21:22:27 GMT
Someone on here came up with a great revision of how to do the Raichi and Gats fight that kept the conclusion mostly the same, but added dialogue and showed off more ghosts were used. I think I wrote that one. I forgot what I wrote exactly since it's been a few years but I just remembered writing a longer version of that fight. From what I do remember: -Gast powers up to one-shot U13 Vegeta. -Raichi sends out all of his ghosts and Gast uses a giant kiai to wipe most of them out except Hirudegarn who turns to smoke to avoid it. -Gast learns from Vegetto's Dragon Flash to make his own Dragon Fist with Porunga to kill Hirudegarn. -He calmly walks over to Raichi now that he's out of ghosts and destroys the orb not knowing that Raichi himself is a ghost. -Hatchiyak appears and same happens from there. The fight would still be relatively short since most of the ghosts were fodder to SSJ2 Vegeta and the same sneak attack wouldn't work on Gast who can regenerate. It would just be cool to see Gast take them all out easily before destroying the orb. OMG, Gast with a Porunga fist would be so badass. This needs to happen in the upcoming fight against Bra, especially since she could use a punch like that (plus she is a lot more powerful than Gast anyways).
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 5, 2021 4:08:42 GMT
Overall I enjoyed the Goku and Uub match. I just felt the ending was too fast and it brought down the match from a perfect 100 to 75. It was good, but not great IMO. I figured I would post how I thought the match could be improved on and have it get that perfect 100 score. The start of the match was perfect. Uub going Maximum Kaioken right away and forcing Goku to jump from SS1 to SS3 is one of my favorite scenes. I wouldn't change any of that. The two of them would trade blows back and forth like they did in the comic. The first change I would make is after Uub kicked Goku away he releases his Kaioken, similar to how every time Goku knocked Vegeta away during their first fight he would release Kaioken to let his body rest rather than try to keep it up indefinitely. Uub would smirk and say he hopes Goku doesn't expect him to be done already. Piccolo in the audience thinks while Uub is fine now the longer the fight lasts the more he will start to feel the backlash of Maximum Kaioken. Goku charges at Uub, while Uub does candy beam fake out. Goku freaks out and dodges hastily, then Uub resumes Kaioken and successfully lands a kick on his master before he can recover.
Uub tries to press his advantage only for Goku to instantly recover and elbow Uub in the stomach then before Uub can recover kicks Uub into the air. Before Goku can press his attack further Uub shoots down towards him like a rocket. Goku smirks and charges right at Uub. The two continue to clash, super speeding all over the place. We see them each landing blows on the other in a intense exchange that creates shock waves, while everyone else watches in awe. U18 Trunks and U18 Goten mention how Goku is as strong as their Super Gotenks (SS3 Gotenks) when they fought Buu back in their universe 20 years ago. U18 Pan would state that Uub is fighting her grandpa evenly. This would establish that Goku and Uub are both fighting on Super Buu's level to show how much they have both improved. We get an idea of some of Goku gains over the 20 years. Piccolo or Vegeta would mention they doubt Goku is using his full power yet, to establish Goku might be even stronger than what we see now. There is a break in the action where we see Uub and Goku catching a breather. Uub is breathing harder to show the effect of Kaioken its toll on his body. Not letting up Goku rushes at his student. As he punches him Goku discovers Uub learned Son Bra's cloning technique.
We pan to U16 to see Vegetto and Bra are surprised that Uub learned their technique. Vegetto praises Uub on figuring out only after seeing it once. Real Uub appears behind Goku and punches him only to discover he hit an afterimage. Like Goku and Roshi's battle way back in the 21st tournament we see master and pupil go through an afterimage/clone battle where they each try to hit the real one only to discover they are hitting a fake. Uub manages to successfully trap Goku in a goop clone that keeps him in place while Uub get several punches in. To escape it Goku powers up, disintegrating the goop and throws Uub away from him. Goku praises Uub for improving during the tournament and giving him such a good fight. He goes into teacher mode and points out how Kaioken is taking its toll on Uub. Goku feels his ki is gradually dropping. While Uub tries to deflect this by pointing out SS3 is doing the same for Goku his heavier breathing compared to Goku would undermine his point. Realizing Goku is still not using his full power and that Kaioken will take its toll on him before SS3 does on Goku Uub goes for broke and uses Transcended Kaioken. The chapter ends with everyone looking at awe of Uub and the last panel shows the buffed Uub and his intense Kaioken aura.
The second chapter starts with Uub speed blitzing Goku like he did in the comic proper. He knocks Goku around before Goku can realize what happened. The same exchange happens as the comic up until after Uub punches his ki blast at Goku.Instead of it being a k.o. for Goku when the smoke clear we see battered SS3 Goku still standing. Uub would release Kaioken and in extreme pain the same way we saw Goku when he went over his Kaioken limit against Vegeta during their first fight, but he smiles at his master. Goku thinks how he never expected Uub would try something so crazy, but be smiling like crazy at how strong Uub is and how he is going to have to turn it up. Uub turns Transcended Kaioken back on to super speed behind Goku. Uub tries to kick Goku only for his teacher to dodge the blow and kick him back. The kick sends Uub flying, but Goku instantly closes the gap, much to Uub's surprise. Goku punches Uub, but Uub blocks the blow. The two exchange blows, both landing hits, but never letting up so neither can press their advantage for long.
On the sidelines multiple fighter comment how powerful both fighters are and be impressed with the battle, even Vegetto would praise Goku on how far he pushed himself as a fighter and how well he raised Uub up. Vegetto wonders to himself where he went wrong with Bra. U13 Vegeta would be utterly stunned at how strong Goku is and realize his own SS3 is far inferior to the alternate Kakarot, much to his frustration. U4 Buu cheers Uub for reaching such heights of power and showing him such a good fight. Back at the battle Uub would get pushed back and his Kaioken would dissipate from the strain of keeping it up for as long as he has. Goku closes in for a finishing blow only for Uub to disappear in thin air. Goku recognize that wasn't super speed, but teleportation. It is revealed Uub is near U18 area while Goku is in the air. Everyone is surprised that Uub learned Instant Transmission. Uub reignites Transcended Kaioken and start charging Kamehamaha much to everyone's surprise. Cell praise Uub for his ruthlessness in using his friends as a shield to keep Goku from firing a Kamehamaha back, while U7 Gast doubts Uub would do something so underhanded. Uub teleports behind Goku. Cell laughs and wonders out loud how Goku likes having that done to him.
Uub fires Kamehamha, but Goku teleports near U1 area to the gods displeasure and U4 Buu's amusement. Goku charges a Kamehamaha as Uub redirects his blast back toward Goku. Before it hits Goku fires his blast off. The Kamehamaha clash. Goku's slowly starts to overpower Uub's. Uub knows if he loses this clash his body and ki will be too spent to continue. Uub goes for broke and increases his Kaioken again and overpower Goku's blast. Uub's Kamehamaha overtakes Goku's, the blast hits him, causing a huge explosion. Pushing his body well beyond its limits and spending much of his ki in the Kamehamaha Uub collapses from the air. U18 Pan screams for her grandfather. U18 Trunks wonders if Goku was killed in the blast. U18 Bra glares at him for saying something like that in front of Pan. Vegeta remarks that shouldn't worry. Uub falls from the air, but is caught by Goku. Goku was able to teleport at the last second, but not before part of the blast hit him. Exhausted himself, Goku powers down from SS3 back to his base. He tries to praise Uub, but Uub forces himself back up and punches Goku hard in the face. Goku goes down with Uub following him.
As they both land on the ground they refuse to stay down. Uub knows his body can barely move, so plans to put everything he has into this last punch. Goku decides to do the same when he realizes what his student has in mind. The two of them charge at each other land a powerful punch to their faces. The blow downs them both. The countdown begins with both fighters struggling to get back up. Uub tries to force his broken body up, but it finally gives out on him. However, Goku successfully gets up. Uub wonders how Goku can get up. Goku reminds him he is taller than Uub. As a result his reach was longer than Uub's. Uub's blow didn't hit Goku as hard as he could, while Uub on the other hand took the full brunt of the blow. The match end the same way Goku's battle with his teacher ended so long ago, the teacher using their superior height and reach to defeat their student.
It is not that different from the fight we got, because that fight was perfect. I just added a little more to it show Uub can display his talent, such as mastering U16 Bra' technique, but also Goku's Instant Transmission. While Kaioken still takes its toll on Uub, but it is more similar to how it worked with Goku during his first battle with Vegeta. It is clearly damaging him, but Uub is lasting longer and taking breaks when he can to prolong the battle. Goku using afterimage to counter Uub's clone felt right. It is a throwback to what Roshi and Goku do and has a classic DB technique go head to head with a new technique introduced in DBM. Showing more other universes comment gives us an idea of how strong Goku and Uub are during this match, which I felt we should have gotten. I just used Super Buu, because I felt it is reasonable level for Goku to have reached after 20 years and left room for him to be stronger, since he doesn't use his full power. In fact Goku's comment on needing to turn it up leaves it ambiguous if he used his full power or not during the match. By having Goku turning it up to keep up with Transcended Kaioken we get longer exchange and both fighters show off what they can do. U16 Vegetto praising Goku on being stronger than he thought, even if it is vastly inferior to Vegetto's own power felt in character. Him acknowledging how well Goku trained Uub, but kept Buu's reincarnation on the right path in comparison to how he has handled Bra does some damage control, since it Vegetto acknowledging U18 did things better than him in one area despite being stronger than them. Cell making a snide comment on Goku having to deal with Teleportation-Kamehamaha combo was too good to leave out.
The fight isn't perfect and it might still leave much to be desired, but I wanted to keep the spirit of what the comic gave us and only elaborate on it a bit more to help fill it out, so it doesn't feel like the fight comes to an abrupt end. SS3 and Transcended Kaioken are heavy on the stamina, but as we've seen in the past quick battles can surprisingly have a lot of exchanges thanks to their super speed. Goku ending things by using his superior height against Uub the same way Roshi did to him just felt right, since the whole thing ends with both of them too exhausted from their power ups and makes the whole thing come down to skill. At least that is what I hoped to convey.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 8, 2021 18:18:06 GMT
Well, I think we will be getting posts in here on how to change Vegeta vs Cell in the not so distant future lol.
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Post by drewsaga on Oct 12, 2021 22:00:08 GMT
Well, I think we will be getting posts in here on how to change Vegeta vs Cell in the not so distant future lol. I was just gonna say something lol.
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Post by drewsaga on Oct 12, 2021 22:09:19 GMT
Goku vs Uub I probably would make last a bit longer. But that fight was great otherwise. Vegeta vs Cell is a bit off, though I would still keep the idea of Vegeta goading Cell into slowly weakening himself and letting his guard down for Vegeta to go for the finish, I would have wrote it so that instead of using or having SSJ3 that Vegeta uses a better form and goes straight for the kill in a similar vein to what he already did because I don't think SSJ3 Vegeta should have been quite strong enough to pull that off.
Then again, if I could rewrite the entirety of DBM, I wouldn't have buffed up Cell by this much. It's not like it did much good against Gohan and was useless against Bra. Cell could have stayed at SSJ3 tier and this outcome of Vegeta vs Cell would have worked fine.
And I wouldn't have made levels/tiers so strict, especially if Bra can beat 6th Form Cold/Ginyu in base, if she can do that then why shouldn't Goku and Vegeta be able to do the same against 4th Form Frieza? Even if Frieza is stronger, he'd have to be a lot stronger to win, Goku and Vegeta are far better fighters (especially since they spent decades training), stands to reason that they should be able to win in base even if it's a tough battle. All the strict tier list does is write the author into a corner like in this fight. Seems like the author intended for Vegeta to win (I thought he would from the beginning and I was hoping but it's hard to make it work) this fight while also not showing his true power, despite Cell being rivals with Gohan and Gohan being stronger than Goku and Vegeta would be even if they had the mystic powerup. I get putting limits on characters and that's fine, but the limits are a bit too constraint. Don't forget there is a huge power gap between Kid Buu and Super Buu.
Why wouldn't U18 SSJ2 Vegeta at least be able to compete against U13 SSJ3 Vegeta, a Vegeta who should by all accounts be far weaker and shouldn't even have SSJ3)? Why should Gast only be low-Mystic level when he is the fusion of 100+ beings? Given Gast's OPed magic I say he is where he needs to be though so I can't complain on that front.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 18, 2021 4:49:51 GMT
I also wouldn't have made Cell as strong as Mystic Gohan or at the very least would have made the ascension temporary thanks to Babidi's magic. Another thing I would change is that I would have had Cell's zenkai lose potency the stronger he got, similar to what happened with the Saiyans after they unlocked Super Saiyan levels. It could have been interesting story for Cell to have. He believed he was a perfect being and had no limits. This tournament could have lead to him discovering he actually does have limits. Cell would not just see beings much stronger than him, but that he might not be able to close the gap. We saw Cell was trying to abuse his zenkai to get stronger quickly with his match against Tapion and realized it wasn't enough. I would have elaborated that scene more by having Cell notice despite surviving near death that his boost in power wasn't as great last time. He still wasn't close to Gohan's level yet, which worries him on how he can hope to surpass some of the other fighters.
That could be one of Cell's reasons for deciding to not fight off Babidi's possession. He would desperate to obtain more power quickly. Either Babidi's magic enhanced Cell enough to reach Mystic Gohan's level or he still not there and only makes it when he survives U19's attacks and receive a zenaki boost. It doesn't really change the battle with Majin Bra much at all. The battle is over and everyone is freed from Babidi's possession Cell's power drops back below Gohan's level. It become more apparent to Cell how his zenkai are losing their potency since even with two of them in the same day he still hasn't caught up to Gohan, which makes the chances of reaching U16 Bra, Gast, or even U4 Buu extremely slim. Cell is confronted with his limitations and a fact that he might have a limit he cannot overcome. That could feed into another reason why he might hold back against Vegeta. If Vegeta can push him close to death Cell can at least secure another boost in power in a desperate attempt to surpass his rivals.
Cell vs. SS3 Vegeta easier for most people to swallow.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 27, 2021 6:14:53 GMT
Since we're getting some fun and good alternative Vegeta vs. Cell matches I figured I would try my hand. Mine will be a downgrade since it won't have images. I've been thinking of some ideas on how I might try to improve the fight. No offense to the actual match itself. I liked a lot of it and what it was trying to do even if I wasn't a fan of the how it ended. I'm all for bringing back tactics and strategies to DB again. It is good to at least see DBS and DBM are both attempting to do that. I'm hoping this would be two chapters. This first post will just be about the first chapter. My next post will be about a second chapter and conclusion of the fight.
The opening with Vegeta turning SS2 and dodging Cell would stay the same. I didn't see the problem with SS2 transformation being fast, I thought it was clever to bait Cell into attacking him with a under powered hit, plays on Vegeta knowing Cell's character well, concealing his true intent in the old arrogant Vegeta brand. Cutting Cell up with ki disc was a good follow up. My first change would be instead of waiting for Cell to regenerate Vegeta would fire off a series of ki blasts, which looks like he is attempting to blowing up Cell before he can regenerate. This move catches people by surprise. U18 Piccolo commenting this is unlike Vegeta, while U18 Gohan thinks it is smart to try to kill Cell before he powers up. He thinks it is the only way Vegeta can beat Cell now. Vegeta smirks and throws Cell's words back at him at how he is too careless. Cell's head, his chest, parts of his thigh, an arm, and bits survived the barrage. Cell makes his tricks comments and regenerates from the parts to create four Cells. Vegeta continues to smirk, but thinks to himself that this will be tough match and he'll have to stick to his strategy if he hopes to win.
The four Cells swarm Vegeta in an instant. Before he can react he'll get punched by one Cell, kicked in the back by another, and launched into the sky with an uppercut by third one. The fourth Cell smirk and comment on how Vegeta is still doesn't know when he is out of his depth. Vegeta takes to the air with three of the Cells racing after him. U19 would wonder why Cell didn't make duplicates of himself when they were fighting Bra. U18 Goku comments that the fact Cell didn't pull out a technique against Bra must have meant the duplicates are either much weaker than the original or divides his power among them. A move that would have hurt Cell against Bra because she is much stronger than him. U16 Gohan growls at how Cell is once again treating them all his playthings. He thinks about if Cell had worked with them from the start they could have stopped Babidi way before Bra woke up. He comments this is why he hates Cell so much.
Vegeta barely dodges a Cell duplicate then counters with a kick that blow it away. He notices the real Cell is standing there watching. He growls. Another Cell duplicate elbows Vegeta's back, while the other one knocks Vegeta down to the ring. The duplicates express their disappointment at Vegeta's lackluster performance. Vegeta screams not to make a fool out of him. He rushes back to the air smashes a duplicates head in, destroying it. Vegeta proclaims he won't be done in by fakes. He fires a Big Bang at another duplicate. The duplicate catches it easily and mocks Vegeta for his weakness, only to discover Vegeta is already behind him. The duplicate Cell realizes too late that the blast was a distraction. The prince fires a bigger Big Bang and destroys the duplicate. Vegeta loudly proclaims the duplicates are weaker, dumber versions of the original that are barely a cut above Cell Juniors. With only one duplicate left Vegeta is able to easily defeat it in a one on one clash. He sends the last duplicate down at Cell's feet. Vegeta squashes it head as lands in front of Cell.
Cell congratulates Vegeta on defeating his doubles mockingly. Vegeta makes another loud proclamation he won't ever let Cell make a fool of him. Cell replies that Vegeta makes it too easy. Vegeta gets madder and rushes Cell, much too U18's horror. Uub fears Vegeta is letting his anger blind him, while U18 Gohan says he knows Vegeta is smarter than this. Vegeta throws blow after blow while Cell blocks them all and judges his speed and power are at a level far higher than Gohan's was when he first transformed to level 2 at the Cell Game. Vegeta gradually increasing the speed of his attacks without response. All Cell does is easily defend each blow without returning a single attack back at Vegeta. The one the sided exchange makes it obvious Vegeta is the clear underdog. U12 Trunks wonders if this is the extent of his father's power. U13 Vegeta makes a snide comment at how his counterpart was nothing, but big talk.
The clash ends with Vegeta out of breath and Cell looking bored. He demands Vegeta go to the next level so he can get a real work out. Provoked Vegeta demands Cell shuts up. Seeing this strong response makes Cell wonder aloud if Vegeta hasn't unlocked level 3. When Vegeta doesn't say anything again Cell laughs at him and sees this as evidence that Vegeta is the only Saiyan in U18 that can't go SS3. Vegeta powers up in SS2 form and declares he'll crush Cell with SS2. History repeats itself with Vegeta charging Final Flash. "This time I'll send you to face Oblivion!" Cell merely chuckles that Vegeta hasn't changed at all. Vegeta unleashes the Final Flash, which Cell catches with one hand, stopping it in place. Vegeta smirks. He goes to SS3 in an instant and channels his power in the blast before Cell realize it. The sudden swell of power overwhelms Cell and obliterates him. The first chapter ends with SS3 Vegeta smirking.
No Cell isn't dead yet. I liked the idea of Vegeta playing on Cell's exiting character flaws to gain an advantage. It is not so much arrogance, but that Vegeta has observing how Cell fights throughout the whole tournament and noticed Cell only uses as much power as needs to make matches more entertaining to himself or to try to power himself up by taking damage for zenkai boost. Vegeta lure Cell into attack him before he transformed was to catch off guard. He's also acting haughty to give Cell, who he knows has a low of opinion of him, the impression that he isn't much different from how he was nearly 30 years ago. All of it head games to help lure Cell into a false sense of security. At the same time this fight still has Cell not really struggling against Vegeta at all. The duplicates start off with the advantage before Vegeta beats them. Cell makes it clear beating them is nothing special.
The characters discussing the duplicates not being used against Bra shows they aren't meant to be used for a serious fight. Cell isn't in any real danger until Vegeta transform into SS3 at the last second to give Final Flash a extra kick before Cell can power up. Even that was part of Vegeta's strategy. By using Final Flash in a last desperate attack it makes Cell think Vegeta is all out of tricks, but at the same time trying to play on Cell's arrogance, since Vegeta is banking on Cell wanting to fully stop or deflect the Final Flash this time around rather than dodging it at the last second to humiliate Vegeta more. When Cell fell for it Vegeta pounced.
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Post by maximusthered2431 on Oct 27, 2021 12:50:20 GMT
Since we're getting some fun and good alternative Vegeta vs. Cell matches I figured I would try my hand. Mine will be a downgrade since it won't have images. I've been thinking of some ideas on how I might try to improve the fight. No offense to the actual match itself. I liked a lot of it and what it was trying to do even if I wasn't a fan of the how it ended. I'm all for bringing back tactics and strategies to DB again. It is good to at least see DBS and DBM are both attempting to do that. I'm hoping this would be two chapters. This first post will just be about the first chapter. My next post will be about a second chapter and conclusion of the fight.
The opening with Vegeta turning SS2 and dodging Cell would stay the same. I didn't see the problem with SS2 transformation being fast, I thought it was clever to bait Cell into attacking him with a under powered hit, plays on Vegeta knowing Cell's character well, concealing his true intent in the old arrogant Vegeta brand. Cutting Cell up with ki disc was a good follow up. My first change would be instead of waiting for Cell to regenerate Vegeta would fire off a series of ki blasts, which looks like he is attempting to blowing up Cell before he can regenerate. This move catches people by surprise. U18 Piccolo commenting this is unlike Vegeta, while U18 Gohan thinks it is smart to try to kill Cell before he powers up. He thinks it is the only way Vegeta can beat Cell now. Vegeta smirks and throws Cell's words back at him at how he is too careless. Cell's head, his chest, parts of his thigh, an arm, and bits survived the barrage. Cell makes his tricks comments and regenerates from the parts to create four Cells. Vegeta continues to smirk, but thinks to himself that this will be tough match and he'll have to stick to his strategy if he hopes to win.
The four Cells swarm Vegeta in an instant. Before he can react he'll get punched by one Cell, kicked in the back by another, and launched into the sky with an uppercut by third one. The fourth Cell smirk and comment on how Vegeta is still doesn't know when he is out of his depth. Vegeta takes to the air with three of the Cells racing after him. U19 would wonder why Cell didn't make duplicates of himself when they were fighting Bra. U18 Goku comments that the fact Cell didn't pull out a technique against Bra must have meant the duplicates are either much weaker than the original or divides his power among them. A move that would have hurt Cell against Bra because she is much stronger than him. U16 Gohan growls at how Cell is once again treating them all his playthings. He thinks about if Cell had worked with them from the start they could have stopped Babidi way before Bra woke up. He comments this is why he hates Cell so much.
Vegeta barely dodges a Cell duplicate then counters with a kick that blow it away. He notices the real Cell is standing there watching. He growls. Another Cell duplicate elbows Vegeta's back, while the other one knocks Vegeta down to the ring. The duplicates express their disappointment at Vegeta's lackluster performance. Vegeta screams not to make a fool out of him. He rushes back to the air smashes a duplicates head in, destroying it. Vegeta proclaims he won't be done in by fakes. He fires a Big Bang at another duplicate. The duplicate catches it easily and mocks Vegeta for his weakness, only to discover Vegeta is already behind him. The duplicate Cell realizes too late that the blast was a distraction. The prince fires a bigger Big Bang and destroys the duplicate. Vegeta loudly proclaims the duplicates are weaker, dumber versions of the original that are barely a cut above Cell Juniors. With only one duplicate left Vegeta is able to easily defeat it in a one on one clash. He sends the last duplicate down at Cell's feet. Vegeta squashes it head as lands in front of Cell.
Cell congratulates Vegeta on defeating his doubles mockingly. Vegeta makes another loud proclamation he won't ever let Cell make a fool of him. Cell replies that Vegeta makes it too easy. Vegeta gets madder and rushes Cell, much too U18's horror. Uub fears Vegeta is letting his anger blind him, while U18 Gohan says he knows Vegeta is smarter than this. Vegeta throws blow after blow while Cell blocks them all and judges his speed and power are at a level far higher than Gohan's was when he first transformed to level 2 at the Cell Game. Vegeta gradually increasing the speed of his attacks without response. All Cell does is easily defend each blow without returning a single attack back at Vegeta. The one the sided exchange makes it obvious Vegeta is the clear underdog. U12 Trunks wonders if this is the extent of his father's power. U13 Vegeta makes a snide comment at how his counterpart was nothing, but big talk.
The clash ends with Vegeta out of breath and Cell looking bored. He demands Vegeta go to the next level so he can get a real work out. Provoked Vegeta demands Cell shuts up. Seeing this strong response makes Cell wonder aloud if Vegeta hasn't unlocked level 3. When Vegeta doesn't say anything again Cell laughs at him and sees this as evidence that Vegeta is the only Saiyan in U18 that can't go SS3. Vegeta powers up in SS2 form and declares he'll crush Cell with SS2. History repeats itself with Vegeta charging Final Flash. "This time I'll send you to face Oblivion!" Cell merely chuckles that Vegeta hasn't changed at all. Vegeta unleashes the Final Flash, which Cell catches with one hand, stopping it in place. Vegeta smirks. He goes to SS3 in an instant and channels his power in the blast before Cell realize it. The sudden swallow of power overwhelms Cell and obliterates him. The first chapter ends with SS3 Vegeta smirking.
No Cell isn't dead yet. I liked the idea of Vegeta playing on Cell's exiting character flaws to gain an advantage. It is not so much arrogance, but that Vegeta has observing how Cell fights throughout the whole tournament and noticed Cell only uses as much power as needs to make matches more entertaining to himself or to try to power himself up by taking damage for zenkai boost. Vegeta lure Cell into attack him before he transformed was to catch off guard. He's also acting haughty to give Cell, who he knows has a low of opinion of him, the impression that he isn't much different from how he was nearly 30 years ago. All of it head games to help lure Cell into a false sense of security. At the same time this fight still has Cell not really struggling against Vegeta at all. The duplicates start off with the advantage before Vegeta beats them. Cell makes it clear beating them is nothing special.
The characters discussing the duplicates not being used against Bra shows they aren't meant to be used for a serious fight. Cell isn't in any real danger until Vegeta transform into SS3 at the last second to give Final Flash a extra kick before Cell can power up. Even that was part of Vegeta's strategy. By using Final Flash in a last desperate attack it makes Cell think Vegeta is all out of tricks, but at the same time trying to play on Cell's arrogance, since Vegeta is banking on Cell wanting to fully stop or deflect the Final Flash this time around rather than dodging it at the last second to humiliate Vegeta more. When Cell fell for it Vegeta pounced.
Really enjoying this so far!! I never thought of having Vegeta pretend to be his Cell saga self to bait Cell. But I like it alot because it not only shows Vegeta has a strategy, but it gives a good reason for Cell go have some ass kicking moments in the fight! Excited for the next part!
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 30, 2021 4:10:34 GMT
Here's the second part. The second chapter opens up with SS3 Vegeta finishing his Final Flash and watching the smoke slowly clear. Off to the sides U18 cheers. Trunks, Goten, Pan, and Bra think Vegeta has won. Piccolo is impressed that Vegeta swallowed his pride and used deceptive tactics to make him appear too weak for Cell to bother using even half his power against. Goku isn't surprised at all. He has always known Vegeta can be a good tactician, but now that he no longer lets his pride drive his every action it has allowed him to become an even greater fighter than ever before. He will now use tactics he deemed beneath him before. Goku praises his rival feigning not only his weakness, but that his pride was running rampant again just to bait Cell to make this all possible. He is eager to see what Vegeta can do at SS3, since he at last gets to see Vegeta use it. Pan is surprised her grandfather thinks the fight will continue, since she assumed her Uncle Vegeta won. Goku just smiles and says the fight is just heating up. The smokes clears to reveal Cell's lower half remains, although it is scratched up. Cell regenerates almost instantaneously. U16 Piccolo curses Cell's durability, since he knows U18 Vegeta's move would have killed Cell if he didn't have Frost Demon cells in his body to help enhance Namek regeneration. Now he doesn't see how Vegeta can win. Vegetto points out despite the Final Flash failing to kill Cell outright that it still caused Cell's ki to nose dive quite a bit. He thinks Vegeta has a shot. U16 Gohan thinks it is better Vegeta's attacked didn't fully destroy Cell's body, since Cell can now reinforce his core to help protect it from powerful ki attacks. Reducing Cell to his core will bring him close to death and trigger his Saiyan cells to revive him even stronger than he was before. Cell smirks and remarks Vegeta saw ploys like that beneath him. Vegeta only says that was true at one point, but he now realizes how foolish he was in the past. Cell teases Vegeta on finally growing up, but still praises the prince for hitting him even if it failed to kill him. Cell feels it at least made things a little more even between them. The biological android powers up and easily achieves SS3 thresholds of power, even with a massive loss in power. He hopes Vegeta can keep up with him on this level. Cell pounces toward the prince. Vegeta meets Cell head on. The two them rain down a rapid series of punches and kicks in what appears to be mere moments to the naked eye. Neither can gain an advantage so far. For every blow Cell manages to land Vegeta lands one of his own. The air vibrates with the shock waves of their power. Cell fires the Special Beam Cannon, which Vegeta just dodges by the skin of his teeth. Before he can recover Cell kicks Vegeta into the air then fires Big Bang attack of his own. Vegeta avoids the strike, but the burst of energy explodes suddenly and consumes the skies. U18 Bra cries for her dad, worried if he survived the blast. Cell tells her not to worry since Vegeta was fast enough to dodge the explosion. He turns around to knowingly at Vegeta who has suffered no major wounds. Cell is happy Vegeta could at least dodge that or else he would be disappointed by this match. Vegeta asks if Cell is still holding back, which Cell replies if he didn't this fight would be too boring, asserting even with his loss of power he still too strong for the Saiyan warrior to handle. Vegeta questions if he is sure. He instantly closes the gap between them, much to Cell's surprise. Vegeta socks Cell in the gut, knocking the air out of him. Vegeta reveals he hasn’t gone all out yet either. He gave Cell a taste of his true speed. He coats his fist with ki and forms a blade that pierces through Cell's stomach. Vegeta reveals he still has a few more cards up his sleeve. Cell is baffled what Vegeta intends to do until his body is skewered by multiple ki blades, when they burst out from all over his body. Vegeta states he has been working on his ki manipulation to both sharpen it and change its shape. Most of the audiences are caught off guard by the brutality of the attack. Cell is barely recognizable, he's a bloody mess, and his ki has taken another major drop. Vegeta finishes up by hacking Cell up into several chunks. He then quickly blast away at the chunks, but unfortunately not fast enough before Cell regenerates from one of the chunks. Cell compliments Vegeta on destroying his body twice in one fight, but failed both times to kill him when he had the chance. Neither attack was strong enough to destroy his whole body. Unless he can generate an attack powerful enough to do that Vegeta has no chance of winning. Vegeta screams not to count him out yet. He blitz passed Cell to try to kick him from behind, only for his blow to kick thin air. Cell reappears behind the prince, preparing to punch him. Vegeta dodges the blow as well. The two warriors are engaged in a high speed battle where they appear and disappear in several different places in milliseconds. Outside of the ring U12 Trunks is left in awe at how much Cell and his father, have improved. This inspires him to start his training again when he returns home. In the U7 area Gast thinks the difference between this Vegeta and his U13 counterpart is like night and day. Despite both of them being SS3 the power of the U13 Vegeta that Gast fought wasn’t in the same league as the power of U18 Vegeta. The clash ends with Vegeta punching Cell away. Vegeta tries to continue his attack only to miss when Cell teleports behind him. Cell slams the prince down then unleashes two ki discs on his foe. Vegeta easily dodges them, but Cell changes their direction. U8 Freeza and U18 Goku instantly recognize this technique. Rather than run around Vegeta reuses the ki blade to cut through both discs and destroys them. Vegeta tries to slash Cell only for it to be stopped by Cell grabbing his arm. The android tells him nice try, but gets knee in his gut. Vegeta breaks free and kicks Cell to the air. Vegeta super speeds behind for a follow up, but only hits an afterimage. The true Cell socks the prince in the jaw, while Vegeta manages to kick him in the face. Both warriors distance themselves from each other. Both of them are out of breath. It becomes obvious both of them are losing stamina. Vegeta realizes the longer the fight drags on the worse off he will be compared to Cell. He charges at the android. Cell prepares to strike when Vegeta stop suddenly. He blinds Cell with solar flare and launches more ki discs to cut up Cell yet again. This time Cell teleports away before Vegeta can follow up with a blast. Unknown to Vegeta the android appears behind him. Cell regenerates and hits his enemy toward the ground. He shoots a powerful ki blast that hits its mark. Vegeta survives, the attack damaged him, he his bleeding from the left side of his face. U18 Videl wonders why Vegeta is bothering to cut Cell up. She thinks regeneration just makes it wasted effort. U18 Gohan replies it is making all the difference. He reminds his wife that Cell isn't the same as Buu. While Buu's regeneration costs him nothing Cell's drains his stamina. The greater the damage Cell receives the more ki he will lose. He admits all of this will be moot if Vegeta can’t land a deceive blow before SS3 consumes Vegeta’s ki. Goku asserts Vegeta is aware of SS3’s weakness as much as anyone. The evidence of that is how Vegeta is only use ki blasts when he needs to.
Cell realizes what Vegeta is trying to do, but declares it is pointless. He has seen SS3 enough times to know its ki consumption will weaken Vegeta far sooner than Vegeta can drain off his stamina. He estimates Vegeta will give out any minute now. Vegeta claims it is more than enough time to finish off Cell. He races off toward his old enemy. Cell replies, “You stand no chance, Vegeta!” They clash with each other and once again get locked into a stalemate. As the intense battle draws out, Vegeta finds himself slowing down first. More of his hits failed to make contact more and more. Eventually Cell’s speed became too much for him to keep up with. Gradually Vegeta was beat back, while Cell pressed his advantage. Cell boasts he told Vegeta he stood no chance. Vegeta refused to give up, but SS3 fizzled out and he was forced to his knees. Exhausted and drained Vegeta cursed. Cell chuckled at the turn of events. U13 Vegeta looked smug at his counterparts’ misfortunate. U12, U16, and U18 looked on with worry and fear. Uub moans Vegeta was so close. Both Gohans growl at their most hated enemy once again escaping karma. Goku was the one who was most bewildered. “Vegeta, you…”
Cell walks up to Vegeta smug as ever. He muses at least Vegeta gave him a decent fight this time, but he is looking forward to seeing what Goku can do. Vegeta jumps up, changes back to SS3, and places his hands on Cell’s chest. He shouts, Super Nova! Cell’s whole body is engulfed an orb of flames. Vegeta blasts Cell into space. The villain is incinerated by the incredible heat of the flames. His body and core are burned away. Vegeta falls out of SS3 form and falls to his knees again. The prince said that last attack took everything he had left, but this time Cell is finished. Back at U18 Goku said he knew it. He knew Vegeta was faking, because he should have had more time as SS3 based on his own experience. He realized Vegeta was intentionally lowering his ki to trick Cell into believing SS3 was taking its toll faster than it was. He did it to lure Cell into one last trap. U16 Vegetto smiles and calls the technique impressive. He compliments his alter ego. U18 Piccolo asks what that technique was. Goku answers that both he and Vegeta were developing their own techniques to deal with enemies that could regenerate. Fighting both Cell and Majin Buu showed them just how dangerous such foes were. Goku admits he took his technique in a different direction than Vegeta. Vegetto explains Vegeta’s technique worked by converting his ki into heat/fire and concentrating and condensing it both to contain the effect and generate even greater heat. The more ki is put into it the greater the heat would be and the longer lasting it would be. He estimated Vegeta had to channel all his remaining ki into to incinerate Cell almost instantaneously.
The technique would work as small sun perfect for killing a being with regeneration, since the attack would continue to burn them until nothing was left. Both Gohans realiz even with Cell’s body reinforcing his core it wouldn’t protect it from being burned at such intense heat. Videl questions why Vegeta didn’t use that attack sooner. Vegeta explains the attack requires him to get close to touch his opponent. He admits that Cell was probably too strong for the technique to generate enough heat to kill Cell fast enough, and feared Cell do something to escape it. That is why he worked so hard to lower Cell’s ki just enough to ensure his Super Nova landed. It’s a technique the old Vegeta never would have come up with, because he came up with it by asking help from others like Krillin, Yamecha, Tien, and even Trunks and Goten on ki manipulation. He realized that more creative ways to use ki could be just as effective to make up for his lack of power. He admits he is still trying to perfect the technique though. Vegeta walks back to the ring. A Cell Junior angrily rebukes him for killing his father. Vegeta retorts his father threatened his daughter for a game. He hates Cell, because he reminds Vegeta of his old self, an arrogant fool who would endanger others around him just to stoke his own ego. He points out had Cell not wasted time fighting U16 Gohan to prove he was better he could have helped them kill Babidi before he gotten U16 Bra. For all his boasting about killing people to get Gohan to take things seriously it was really his Gohan who had come closes to stopping everything by choosing to go after Babidi. In the end Cell is still inferior to his rival, Son Gohan. Vegeta deems Cell was unworthy of his true power. He deems only Goku is worthy of that. Goku chuckles and says some things never change.
This went a little longer than I thought. It might not be two chapters and bleed a little over into a third chapter. Kind of wanted to have Vegeta win this fight by using tactics and techniques. It keeps Cell in the same league as Mystic Gohan, but I tried my best to have Vegeta drain off Cell in more believable way. I thought the best way to do that would be to destroy as much of Cell's body was possible to cause him to lose large amounts of ki. We saw this was possible in canon when Goku landed that massive Kamehameha on Cell and everyone sensed Cell's ki dropped sharply. The first chapter I had Vegeta feign weakness to lure Cell into take Final Flash. Cell likes to toy with his pray Vegeta had a good idea Cell wouldn't kill him outright. When he witnessed the events of the revolt it only furthered confirmed to Vegeta that Cell was still the same arrogant warrior who put his pride before logic. Vegeta and Gohan both point out how Cell could have ended things before Bra woke up had he been truly pragmatic.
Since Vegeta knows SS3 is ki guzzler I tried to make him use his ki more efficiently to give him more time and only use ki blasts when he needs to. That is why I had Vegeta sharpen his ki with disc and blades, since DB established regardless how strong someone is they can still be sliced up. Someone as weak as Krillin could potentially kill Freeza if he hit him with Desstructo Disc. Cell's regeneration would prevent that from being a fatal blow depending on how much damage Cell takes cutting him and hacking him up could probably cause major damage. I figured Vegeta skewering Cell from the inside out would probably be damaging to him as if he had his upper body destroyed, might still cause another sharp decline in ki, especially when he regenerate from that unlike Buu's regeneration. It is not fatal and just brings Cell down from Mystic Gohan to Vegeta's level. Since this was the quarter finals I thought Vegeta having a new technique would be appropriate. I thought we might get a reveal that Vegeta had a new move to counter regeneration the same way Vegetto did. I wouldn't be surprised if Goku and Vegeta did develop their own techniques since Cell and Buu gave them such hard time. I tried hard to make it not broken. I liked the idea of Vegeta trying to convert and condense his ki into sphere of heat to create a long lasting effect that burns the enemy into nothing is left as a way to deal with regeneration. It just happen to be something that would take out Cell's core even if it was reinforced.
I tried to make this fight continue the trend of showcasing Vegeta's growth as a person by having him do things he would have seen as beneath him in the past like pretending to be weak to keep the enemy from going all out so he could land an attack. Vegeta asking for the humans, who has never respected, for help in developing a technique having seen the worth in their more creative uses of ki compared to his more straightforward brute force way. Vegeta intentionally only destroys parts of Cell so as not reduce him to a core to trigger a zenkai, because he knows he can't win. To Cell he thinks Vegeta is trying his best, but failing to kill him. Vegeta knows about the reinforced core because U4 Buu showed everyone what happened, so Vegeta is being extra careful. This isn't something that would work on everyone. It only works for this fight because Cell wants to be entertained and likes to handicap himself to give his enemies more of a chance. If he tried this out on U16 Bra during the revolt she would have killed him because she would get frustrated with these games and kill Vegeta before he could try to do this. Cell probably still could have won if he thought Vegeta was a threat to him, but he just didn't think Vegeta was a threat, which is pretty in character I think.
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