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Post by VoidSlayer on Nov 30, 2016 4:05:44 GMT
Mystic Gohan and SSJ1 Bra seems like a very reasonable tier for Gast. However, Vegeto SSJ1 and higher seems like a gross exaggeration. No normal character without fusion (not counting Namekian), assimilation or Mystic powerups should reach such level.
From the remaining participants, the tiers should be more or less like this:
Low tier: Uub, Vegeta, Goku
Middle tier: Raichi, Gast, Bra, Cell
High tier: Buu, XXI
You're joking right?
Out of the remaining participants i see it more like this:
Low Tier: Uub, Raichi
Middle Tier: Gast, Goku, Vegeta, Cell, Bra
High Tier: Buu, XXI
As for Gast- I really can't see him being more then SS3 tier, with some interesting Magical techniques he learned while studying at that planet that was showed in the last Gast special.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Nov 30, 2016 4:24:17 GMT
Mystic Gohan and SSJ1 Bra seems like a very reasonable tier for Gast. However, Vegeto SSJ1 and higher seems like a gross exaggeration. No normal character without fusion (not counting Namekian), assimilation or Mystic powerups should reach such level. From the remaining participants, the tiers should be more or less like this: Low tier: Uub, Vegeta, Goku Middle tier: Raichi, Gast, Bra, Cell High tier: Buu, XXI You're joking right? Out of the remaining participants i see it more like this: Low Tier: Uub, Raichi Middle Tier: Gast, Goku, Vegeta, Cell, Bra High Tier: Buu, XXI As for Gast- I really can't see him being more then SS3 tier, with some interesting Magical techniques he learned while studying at that planet that was showed in the last Gast special. What exactly does seem joke-like in my comment? I wasn't aware of any humorous implications in anything I said. All you did differently was wrongly place Vegeta and Goku at a higher tier while downplaying Raichi. The base of the tier is otherwise similar. I do not think either U18 Vegeta or Goku could deal with an effective Ghost formation of current Raichi. They could have defeated him in the previous round with ease though. |
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Post by fooshin on Nov 30, 2016 4:49:31 GMT
If those are power level tiers I'm not sure if xxi necessarily should be in any of those three. The person who is competing might have a power level similar to farmer with shotgun for all we know. It's still unknown who blasted buu in his apartment so he is still a big unknown at this point.
Can you have a power level of 5 and know magic that makes you strong enough to resist the gravity? Would that count? Maybe someone else enchants him before he leaves the apartment. Maybe he's just muttering jibberish. So many unknowns with this guy.
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Post by mbg on Nov 30, 2016 17:43:17 GMT
Still, remember Salagir has odd ideas in respects to powerlevel numbers in this era. If I recall correctly, in DBM Freeza final form only had 580,000 units. Old post, but I don't think that's true? At least, not to my recollection. The closest thing to that is Bojack 2, where we see a force designed to combat the Cold family and the highest power level among them is 780,000. Thing is, Salagir's explained that the force was based on what they knew of the Cold family. Freeza, for instance, was almost always in Form 1 (500,000ish) and very occasionally went Form 2 (a million), and the Ginyu Force, considered the greatest warriors under Freeza's command, were mostly in the five-digit range - if that's indicative of the others, the assumption you'd make is that a warrior that can make mincemeat of the elites and combat the enemy at the power level of the majority of reports, is probably good enough. They simply didn't know that anything on the level of Form 3 Freeza existed (whom Salagir noted would have easily crushed Bojack at the time), much less the forms above it. |
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Post by fooshin on Nov 30, 2016 17:59:18 GMT
If those are power level tiers I'm not sure if xxi necessarily should be in any of those three. The person who is competing might have a power level similar to farmer with shotgun for all we know. It's still unknown who blasted buu in his apartment so he is still a big unknown at this point.
Can you have a power level of 5 and know magic that makes you strong enough to resist the gravity? Would that count? Maybe someone else enchants him before he leaves the apartment. Maybe he's just muttering jibberish. So many unknowns with this guy. Yes, and I'm not denying it's more likely that he is the one who shot buu, but those statements still don't change anything. Just because he will get the wishes when he wins doesn't mean he shot buu. And just because he wants the other person to tell him how to beat 18 doesn't mean he shot buu either. It could be his porunga (the real xxi)shot buu and he is a complete weakling who is working in his service or perhaps even controls him but either way has his own agenda. He did not say "I will have my wishes and I won't use them for my master, nope their all for me, hehe" either. |
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Post by fooshin on Nov 30, 2016 18:09:04 GMT
Actually, my last post makes a lot of sense to me now about who and what xxi is. Old kai talked to goku about the dragon balls and so he knew all about them and the namekian. Perhaps there are dark dragon balls and a dark porunga that are a counter balance to the good ones. Maybe he only grants really limited wishes in exchange for something evil in exchange. Perhaps old kai found them and the witch inside him thought it would be cool to use them. Maybe he wished for some panties or the power to make someone crazy strong but the dark porunga ultimately tricked him and he ended up being sealed away in the sword as a trick. Xxi (dark porunga) then disappeared for 75 million years simply because no one could find the balls. But in u5 some old wizard dude does find them and when he starts to use them the vargas show up...
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Post by VoidSlayer on Dec 1, 2016 10:05:20 GMT
Mystic Gohan and SSJ1 Bra seems like a very reasonable tier for Gast. However, Vegeto SSJ1 and higher seems like a gross exaggeration. No normal character without fusion (not counting Namekian), assimilation or Mystic powerups should reach such level. From the remaining participants, the tiers should be more or less like this: Low tier: Uub, Vegeta, Goku Middle tier: Raichi, Gast, Bra, Cell High tier: Buu, XXI You're joking right? Out of the remaining participants i see it more like this: Low Tier: Uub, Raichi Middle Tier: Gast, Goku, Vegeta, Cell, Bra High Tier: Buu, XXI As for Gast- I really can't see him being more then SS3 tier, with some interesting Magical techniques he learned while studying at that planet that was showed in the last Gast special. What exactly does seem joke-like in my comment? I wasn't aware of any humorous implications in anything I said. All you did differently was wrongly place Vegeta and Goku at a higher tier while downplaying Raichi. The base of the tier is otherwise similar. I do not think either U18 Vegeta or Goku could deal with an effective Ghost formation of current Raichi. They could have defeated him in the previous round with ease though. Basically how you've downplayed Goku and Vegeta so much that you have Cell of all people ahead of them. I don't doubt he's alot more powerful then he was as portrayed in DBZ, but Goku and Vegeta have made stellar progress all the way to the end of the Buu saga, and have had what? 10 years to train and improve? Abd you say i'm incorrectly placing people? Please As for Raichi if you add SS3 Vegeta and Hirudegarn then that does buff him up a fair bit, but Raichi's power is still pretty damn low, without his ghosts he's by far the weakest contestant left. Gast is interesting as it's hard to place him but i wouldn't put him above Vege or Goku. His containment of Buu is damned impressive but just by combat power i wouldn't put him above a SS3. And most importantly until i see it explicitly stated, im definitely not putting Bra ahead of them either |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 1, 2016 10:37:08 GMT
Basically how you've downplayed Goku and Vegeta so much that you have Cell of all people ahead of them. I don't doubt he's alot more powerful then he was as portrayed in DBZ, but Goku and Vegeta have made stellar progress all the way to the end of the Buu saga, and have had what? 10 years to train and improve? Abd you say i'm incorrectly placing people? Please It was implied in the novel they were close to their limits in Buu saga. Arguably Vegeta has made more progress than Goku. There is nothing indicating they truly improved a lot since then. So please drop the edgy attitude. You are incorrect unless proven the contrary. We haven't seen Goku doing anything that indicated he's far above his Buu saga self. We also haven't seen Vegeta transforming into SSJ3 yet. Cell also shat a Cell JR arguably stronger than Majin Vegeta. And even if you think Cell is just at initial SSJ3 level, take into account he's possibly Majin'd by now. For calculating Raichi power, you have to sum all the Ghosts at his disposition, and the fact he can use them at the same time. This certainly would pose a problem for Goku or Vegeta. That Raichi alone is weak is totally irrelevant. He never fights alone. I can agree with this, he's at least solidly in SSJ3 tier (one-shot a Cell JR stronger than anything from the Cell saga, just like SSJ3 Vegeta did), but there's a possibility he may be higher. Ahead of who? She's certainly above them (yourself placed her above them, even). Base Bra is at FPSSJ level. SSJ1 Bra is slightly weaker than Mystic Gohan (this already puts her at Goku at maximum level) and considering her SSJ2 must be at least twice as strong as that, it must be above Buutenks level. Far beyond Goku at SSJ3 (currently) and arguably than Vegeta as well (assuming he already discovered SSJ3). |
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Post by VoidSlayer on Dec 2, 2016 3:42:29 GMT
Basically how you've downplayed Goku and Vegeta so much that you have Cell of all people ahead of them. I don't doubt he's alot more powerful then he was as portrayed in DBZ, but Goku and Vegeta have made stellar progress all the way to the end of the Buu saga, and have had what? 10 years to train and improve? Abd you say i'm incorrectly placing people? Please It was implied in the novel they were close to their limits in Buu saga. Arguably Vegeta has made more progress than Goku. There is nothing indicating they truly improved a lot since then. So please drop the edgy attitude. You are incorrect unless proven the contrary. We haven't seen Goku doing anything that indicated he's far above his Buu saga self. We also haven't seen Vegeta transforming into SSJ3 yet. Cell also shat a Cell JR arguably stronger than Majin Vegeta. And even if you think Cell is just at initial SSJ3 level, take into account he's possibly Majin'd by now. For calculating Raichi power, you have to sum all the Ghosts at his disposition, and the fact he can use them at the same time. This certainly would pose a problem for Goku or Vegeta. That Raichi alone is weak is totally irrelevant. He never fights alone. I can agree with this, he's at least solidly in SSJ3 tier (one-shot a Cell JR stronger than anything from the Cell saga, just like SSJ3 Vegeta did), but there's a possibility he may be higher. Ahead of who? She's certainly above them (yourself placed her above them, even). Base Bra is at FPSSJ level. SSJ1 Bra is slightly weaker than Mystic Gohan (this already puts her at Goku at maximum level) and considering her SSJ2 must be at least twice as strong as that, it must be above Buutenks level. Far beyond Goku at SSJ3 (currently) and arguably than Vegeta as well (assuming he already discovered SSJ3). It was never implied in the novel that they were close to their limits, it was implied that Vegeta was close to his limits as he didn't have access to SS3 which boosts power astronomically (Compared to SS2). Yeah there's no concrete evidence that Goku or Vegeta have hit all new levels of power but lets face it, they've hardly faced any truly tough opponents (especially Goku) but you're trying to tell me that you think that in the 10 years since the end of the Buu saga, with Goku training Uub and Vegeta constantly not wanting to be left in his Shadow that they haven't made great improvements? We have no clue whether Cell has been Majinised but even if he has, considering the nonchalance that Goku and Vegeta displayed when Cell powered up against Bojack i can't put him higher in power than either of them. As for Raichi- Ok i'll give you that. Solid argument. If they finally get to the Gast Vs Raichi fight i'll finally see how powerful Gast is, or at least get a close read of his combat power if he struggles with SS3 Emperor Vegeta or the combined might of every ghost at once. I don't put Bra ahead of either Vegeta or Goku. I put them all in the same mid-tier because i believe based on what i've seen and what's been implied that they are all roughly around the same power if you don't factor in additional abilities. I see Bra as being 1 step above each level. Etc- Her base is equal to SS1, her SS1 is equal to a powerful SS2, and Her SS2 is at or above SS3/Mystic. But without control of her SS2 form i can see her being around equal to Goku, Vegeta and Gast. |
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 2, 2016 4:08:16 GMT
It was never implied in the novel that they were close to their limits, it was implied that Vegeta was close to his limits as he didn't have access to SS3 which boosts power astronomically (Compared to SS2). Yeah there's no concrete evidence that Goku or Vegeta have hit all new levels of power but lets face it, they've hardly faced any truly tough opponents (especially Goku) but you're trying to tell me that you think that in the 10 years since the end of the Buu saga, with Goku training Uub and Vegeta constantly not wanting to be left in his Shadow that they haven't made great improvements? If Vegeta was implied to be close to his limits as he doesn't have access to SSj3, then wouldn't it make Goku even closer to his limits considering he already has SSj3? I'm not following this. I consider both of them stronger than Buu saga (the fact that I put Goku and Vegeta in the same tier, when in Buu saga Vegeta was far inferior should speak volumes). But certainly, they don't have a big typical "next saga powerup" SSJ4 bullshit under their sleeves. That's all I mean. If anything, Goku would be like 20% stronger than Buu saga (and since Vegeta was inferior at such time, his strength increase should be a lot more). But if you are expecting current u18 Goku to be 5x to 10x stronger I think you are going to be disappointed. To put things into perspective: I doubt any of them are stronger than Super Buu (from the DBZ era) right now. I doubt either of them are stronger than Mystic Gohan or any of the Fusion Buus. I'm betting he's Majinized. Whether he's fully controlled or pulls a Majin Vegeta is a whole another topic. The non-chalance doesn't mean anything as that wasn't his full power at all. During the fight with Dabura, Goku and Vegeta remarked he was not stronger than Cell before coming back (Super Perfect Cell). When he fought against Bojack, he likely just went a bit above the Super Perfect Cell level they knew, hence they just said "See? He's actually stronger". Confirming their suspicions about the Cell Jr they saw killed by Gast. He also took the Hildegarn fight like a joke. Yeah, and we also have to take into account that as long as people keep dying in the tournament, his power keeps rising. When he just entered the tournament I don't think he'd even have been able to take Bojack or Dabura. Indeed, this is a very unpredictable outcome. But either way, at this point of the tournament we shouldn't get any 2 pages or joke fight anymore. Out-universe, this was the reason Buu gave everyone gifs and small power-ups. This whole third round of the tournament was so unbalanced most fights would have only lasted 2 pages. Since Raichi didn't seem to get any significant power-up (other than a ambiguous recharge) this makes me think he must stand very close to Gast's power level at the moment. At least to give one hell of a fight. There we disagree again. It doesn't work like "Bra SSJ1 = Normal SSJ2, Bra SSJ2 = Normal SSJ3". It's not as much as she is one transformation step above, just that her base power is a lot stronger and therefore the multipliers become more insane. Here we confirm her SSJ2 state is stronger than U16 Mystic Gohan:  It doesn't specify how much, but a good guess would be Buutenks level. By this alone, she's already miles ahead than Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku. And likely still ahead of current DBM Goku (unless you think Current Goku and Vegeta are a shitload stronger than Mystic Gohan). I'd say SSJ1 Bra would be anywhere from Kid Buu level to Super Buu. Also, by elimination this means all current participants are in middle and high Buu saga tiers. Excluding XXI (big bad) and Buu (he's far, far stronger than anything we saw in the Buu saga), all other remaining participants are firmly in between Kid Buu and Buuhan level. |
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Post by Axalon on Dec 2, 2016 4:54:08 GMT
I don't put Bra ahead of either Vegeta or Goku. I put them all in the same mid-tier because i believe based on what i've seen and what's been implied that they are all roughly around the same power if you don't factor in additional abilities. I see Bra as being 1 step above each level. Etc- Her base is equal to SS1, Her base is roughly Perfect Cell level, since that's what Ginyu-Cold was at when he transformed twice and beat her within an inch of her life (before pocket senzu beans and gooey afterimages). Cell of course was stronger than every SS1 of his time. Bra as a normal super saiyan had Goku immediately wondering if she was stronger than him, and he hasn't even seen Bra's full power yet. This was ALSO a Bra who was "holding her temper in", at least, apparently this was her holding it in enough to where Vegito decided not to pull her out.  Of course, it's hard to gauge where exactly Goku and Vegeta are at since so far they haven't done anything noteworthy in the entire tournament that would show progression. EDIT: Also what Conqueror Geng posted. That too. |
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Post by fooshin on Dec 2, 2016 6:06:09 GMT
Axalon, Just reading your post and wondering about your comments about bra's strength relating to rage. Obviously if your watching dbs this is a big factor, if not the only factor in determining strength, but in the db Manga I believe it was only ever Gohan and his particular rage boost where anger directly correlated to an actual increase in power level. Isn't that correct? Also as a side note... vacationing in kona Hawaii for a week. Pretty awesome driving by Kamehameha Dr. Gonna have to do a family Kamehameha pic.  |
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Post by VoidSlayer on Dec 2, 2016 6:55:40 GMT
It was never implied in the novel that they were close to their limits, it was implied that Vegeta was close to his limits as he didn't have access to SS3 which boosts power astronomically (Compared to SS2). Yeah there's no concrete evidence that Goku or Vegeta have hit all new levels of power but lets face it, they've hardly faced any truly tough opponents (especially Goku) but you're trying to tell me that you think that in the 10 years since the end of the Buu saga, with Goku training Uub and Vegeta constantly not wanting to be left in his Shadow that they haven't made great improvements? If Vegeta was implied to be close to his limits as he doesn't have access to SSj3, then wouldn't it make Goku even closer to his limits considering he already has SSj3? I'm not following this. I consider both of them stronger than Buu saga (the fact that I put Goku and Vegeta in the same tier, when in Buu saga Vegeta was far inferior should speak volumes). But certainly, they don't have a big typical "next saga powerup" SSJ4 bullshit under their sleeves. That's all I mean. If anything, Goku would be like 20% stronger than Buu saga (and since Vegeta was inferior at such time, his strength increase should be a lot more). But if you are expecting current u18 Goku to be 5x to 10x stronger I think you are going to be disappointed. To put things into perspective: I doubt any of them are stronger than Super Buu (from the DBZ era) right now. I doubt either of them are stronger than Mystic Gohan or any of the Fusion Buus. I'm betting he's Majinized. Whether he's fully controlled or pulls a Majin Vegeta is a whole another topic. The non-chalance doesn't mean anything as that wasn't his full power at all. During the fight with Dabura, Goku and Vegeta remarked he was not stronger than Cell before coming back (Super Perfect Cell). When he fought against Bojack, he likely just went a bit above the Super Perfect Cell level they knew, hence they just said "See? He's actually stronger". Confirming their suspicions about the Cell Jr they saw killed by Gast. He also took the Hildegarn fight like a joke. Yeah, and we also have to take into account that as long as people keep dying in the tournament, his power keeps rising. When he just entered the tournament I don't think he'd even have been able to take Bojack or Dabura. Indeed, this is a very unpredictable outcome. But either way, at this point of the tournament we shouldn't get any 2 pages or joke fight anymore. Out-universe, this was the reason Buu gave everyone gifs and small power-ups. This whole third round of the tournament was so unbalanced most fights would have only lasted 2 pages. Since Raichi didn't seem to get any significant power-up (other than a ambiguous recharge) this makes me think he must stand very close to Gast's power level at the moment. At least to give one hell of a fight. There we disagree again. It doesn't work like "Bra SSJ1 = Normal SSJ2, Bra SSJ2 = Normal SSJ3". It's not as much as she is one transformation step above, just that her base power is a lot stronger and therefore the multipliers become more insane. Here we confirm her SSJ2 state is stronger than U16 Mystic Gohan: It doesn't specify how much, but a good guess would be Buutenks level. By this alone, she's already miles ahead than Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku. And likely still ahead of current DBM Goku (unless you think Current Goku and Vegeta are a shitload stronger than Mystic Gohan). I'd say SSJ1 Bra would be anywhere from Kid Buu level to Super Buu. Also, by elimination this means all current participants are in middle and high Buu saga tiers. Excluding XXI (big bad) and Buu (he's far, far stronger than anything we saw in the Buu saga), all other remaining participants are firmly in between Kid Buu and Buuhan level.Sorry if there's any confusion here, but from what we've seen unlocking a new transformation allows a Saiyans potential to continually rise. i.e Base from Vegeta without SS3 would be weaken then Base form Goku who has unlocked SS3, if that makes sense. Either way though i'm definitely not saying that they've increased their strength 10 times over, but i'd put them as far beyond basic SS3 level as Cell is now beyond basic SS2 level. Again with 10 years to train and improve we know that Goku and Vegeta can make large increases in their power without gaining some new transformation. Look at DB Super- Before Vegeta got God Ki he approached Whis to train him, and Whis could tell he was 'alot stronger then before' just from training. As for Cell they've never been shocked about his power when he's raised it so it can't be that dangerous that you'd originally rank Cell higher. It's true that like Goku and Vegeta he's yet to face a tough opponent, yet using Hildy to prove your point is fallacious as he was nerfed considerably by Salagir. I knew we'd disagree on Bra, but are you really going to use the multipliers as your evidence? Because i get that her potential is higher because of being the daughter of Vegito, but to put her that far above? I just can't agree with that. Yeah your scan from the novelisation shows that her turning SS2 makes her more powerful then Mystic, but lets face it, SS3 and Mystic are roughly the same depending on your interpretation and i say that with their additional training, Goku and Vegeta would be beyond Mystic Gohan by now as he has not trained at all. By my reckoning her SS1 would be around Majin Vegeta, which is still below Fat Buu. And her SS2 puts her at high SS3 level, yet without proper control of it i'd say it'd still be a liability in a tournament fight |
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Post by VoidSlayer on Dec 2, 2016 7:11:06 GMT
I don't put Bra ahead of either Vegeta or Goku. I put them all in the same mid-tier because i believe based on what i've seen and what's been implied that they are all roughly around the same power if you don't factor in additional abilities. I see Bra as being 1 step above each level. Etc- Her base is equal to SS1, Her base is roughly Perfect Cell level, since that's what Ginyu-Cold was at when he transformed twice and beat her within an inch of her life (before pocket senzu beans and gooey afterimages). Cell of course was stronger than every SS1 of his time. Bra as a normal super saiyan had Goku immediately wondering if she was stronger than him, and he hasn't even seen Bra's full power yet. This was ALSO a Bra who was "holding her temper in", at least, apparently this was her holding it in enough to where Vegito decided not to pull her out. Of course, it's hard to gauge where exactly Goku and Vegeta are at since so far they haven't done anything noteworthy in the entire tournament that would show progression. EDIT: Also what Conqueror Geng posted. That too. But in this case you're not taking into consideration how much they would have improved by now, but most importantly Cold was less powerful then perfect Cell, and Bra without her 'special' techniques was weaker again. Making her strength around that of a SS1 being very plausible in my opinion. Plus he clearly says that "Is she stronger then us too'? Meaning he was unsure that her Ss1 was stronger then his. Again this is all circumstancial but Even if Bra is stronger then Goku at her full powr, it certainly won't be by much, i'll bet the house on that haha You call that Bra 'controlled'? come on man, she's going berserk and getting all the implied rage-powerboost along with it. |
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Dec 2, 2016 7:39:00 GMT
Risk of off topic but relevant to the question of Bra's power: Interpret the following page. Is this Bra with a rage induced boost or is this Bra releasing most of her energy so she'd lose power against Zangya and not accidentally kill her?  |
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Post by VoidSlayer on Dec 2, 2016 7:52:36 GMT
Honestly? It looks like she's doing some huge powerup to me. Based on how angry she was i can't see her thinking tactically enough to think to 'let off' some power so she doesn't kill her opponent that just insulted her dead half-sister?
Then kills her anyhow....Probably not a 'letting off some steam' moment lol
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Dec 2, 2016 7:52:47 GMT
Sorry if there's any confusion here, but from what we've seen unlocking a new transformation allows a Saiyans potential to continually rise. i.e Base from Vegeta without SS3 would be weaken then Base form Goku who has unlocked SS3, if that makes sense. Wait, are you confusing potential with power? Problem is, Mystic Gohan already was like 5x stronger than Goku SSJ3 in Buu saga. And to say Cell is beyond basic SSJ2 level is a very big underestimation. I remind you he shat a Cell JR with a near equal power to an SSJ2 U13 Vegeta, which was just a step from unlocking SSJ3. This would mean he was already considerably stronger than Majin Vegeta. If Cell can shit a Cell Jr of such power, it is obvious he is far beyond an hypothetical "FPSSJ2". Using DBSuper as a proof for developments in DBM is near sinful. I do not think I even need to explain why this is invalid. Not any more fallacious than assuming Cell has powered up to the maximum yet (as you are doing). As nerfed this Hildegarn is, it took this Cell less than half the time to finish it off than either U18 or U16 did. Well, yeah I am. I think Salagir uses them too, and explained them during the last Kakarotto fight. Mystic would be the absolute higher tier of "SSJ3". Anything above that is simply beyond. And SSJ2 Bra is beyond it. It is totally futile to argue against novel stated proof. All you're doing now is backpedalling and applying fanon. Think about like this: Kid Buu, Initial Fat Buu and Goku SSJ3 are in the same tier. Next tier would be Super Buu, Kid Gotenks An intermediate tier would be Mystic Gohan Another tier would be Buutenks and Buuhan To say Super Buu and Gotenks are still within "SSJ3" tier is acceptable, but Mystic Gohan and anything above is not. I am not sure if Super Buu can be still considered SSJ3 tier, as in the U4 Special he basically PWNED Goku, only managing to seriously hurt him once due to him being distracted. |
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Post by Axalon on Dec 2, 2016 8:14:36 GMT
But in this case you're not taking into consideration how much they would have improved by now, I did consider that, and I then stated that due to their opponents in the tournament we've learned absolutely nothing about their progress. Everything they've done can feasibly be done by Buu-saga characters. "Almost" at Perfect Cell levels is still vastly stronger than Cell-saga Goku. Cell held back tremendously against SS1 Goku, and Gohan had to go SS2 to counter. Bra went toe-to-toe with someone almost at Cell's level of strength and roughed him up a bit before having to snack on a senzu. That's more than any SS1 has ever done (Goku vs Cell doesn't count, because again, Cell was playing with him.) Proof this is what Goku meant and not talking about his SS3? He's already noted that Vegito and Broly were vastly stronger than him, Bra would just be the next in line. She's already stronger at full power than U16 Mystic Gohan, who didn't slack off like U18 did. I'm using Vegito's definition, not any sane definition of the word. According to him, who has first hand experience with her awful temper, that WAS controlled and the attempt was good enough for him. They most decidedly are not. SS3 Goku is vastly weaker than Mystic Gohan. One can knock Super Buu around like a pinata, the other has trouble with the weaker Kid Buu. Axalon, Just reading your post and wondering about your comments about bra's strength relating to rage. Obviously if your watching dbs this is a big factor, if not the only factor in determining strength, but in the db Manga I believe it was only ever Gohan and his particular rage boost where anger directly correlated to an actual increase in power level. Isn't that correct? I wasn't referring to a rage boost of any kind actually. Just the regular act of powering up (though she's certainly very upset while doing so) and Goku's reaction to it. |
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Post by VoidSlayer on Dec 2, 2016 9:10:24 GMT
Genghis Khan and Axalon- I'll reply to you both here as our combined comment are getting pretty long.
I'll start with you Genghis-
Potential and power are irrevocably linked, a fighter's potential basically shows what level their power can rise to.
Mystic Gohan was certainly not '5 times stronger' then SS3. As i'll argue now they were roughly the same power, with Mystic being possibly a tiny bit stronger as SS3 was still in it's early stages at this point. Basically They were both able to manhandle Super Buu, they both lost badly to Buutenks, yet when Gotenks defused and Buu became Buuiccolo, Goku flat out states that he would not need to fuse with Gohan as Buu's power had dropped by a 1/3, and was well within his capabilities to defeat. I don't know where the heck you got that 5 times stronger figure from, but it's not from canon DBZ thats for sure.
Cell did create a Cell junior that was around mid SS2 in power, which i would say puts Cell himself in SS3 tier but if you go back to the page in the comic, he's clearly quite tired from creating such a powerful junior, and at no point have either Goku or Vegeta showed that they were worried about Cells power, which in my opinion shows that while he's improved greatly, he's not up there with U18's maximum power.
Yes, i know that Super has very little to do with DBM, but like it or not Super is the new Canon when it comes to all things Dragon Ball and it shows that if a Saiyan can keep raising their power without obtaining a new transformation, then they can certainly do so in DBM.
I've not stated that Cell has powered up to his maximum, but when Goku and Vegeta saw him raise his power alot higher then his Base perfect level, they simply shrugged as they'd assumed it was the case. Of course Cell hasn't showed his maximum power, but neither have Goku or Vegeta....Not by a long shot.
As for multipliers the only place i've seen them be used is in theoretical powerlists on wiki pages...Hardly a credible source. However if you can link me to where Salagir said this i'd certainly be interested.
Mystic and SS3 are unlinked, Mystic just brought out all of Gohans potential, yet SS3 was like the ultimate transformation, so much power that it was felt accross dimensions and could only be fully handled in the realm of the dead. By that alone i'd say SS3 is more powerful, yet drains you quickly making it less useful in protracted battles.
As for your tiers, i just cant agree with you mate- SS2 is more powerful then Mystic Gohan, who at this point is most likely weaker then SS3 Goku as by now he'd have improved considerably since the end of the Buu saga while U18's Gohan has done shit all in that time. So there's no novel stated proof as it's never been stated anywhere that Mystic is the absolute highest Tier of SS3 as they aren't the same as i've stated above.
Kid Buu and Super Buu are about the same, not Fat Buu which Goku stated later he could of defeated easily but wanted Gotenks to have a shot as he wouldn't be around forever to protect the earth. I'd agree that Buutenks and Buuhan would be at the highest tier, but everything else is mixed up mate.
Fat Buu is by himself at the bottom
Next tier would be Kid buu, Super buu, SS3 Goku and Mystic Gohan are roughly the same.
Top tier would be Buutenks, Buuhan, then Vegeto right at the pinacle.
Super buu of DBM was only more powerful because he had absorbed Vegeta, which was adding a Powerful SS2 to his Superbuu power. Making him beyond an Early SS3 (That Goku was at the time)
Now to you Axalon-
You say you'd considered their improvement, yet at the start of the tournament Goku says for Pan not to worry as most of the opponents were really much weaker then them, with the only exception being Buu. I'd say that shows that they've improved enough to render previous villains such as Fat buu, Cell, Bojack, Dabura, Freiza and family not any real threat to their current power.
Almost at Perfect Cell level was referring to Cell before he'd powered up to his maximum, which allowed Goku to go toe-to-toe with him for most of their match, and weaken Cell considerably. So no- 'Almost' at perfect Cell level was not vastly more powerful than Goku at this point. Plus She was weaker then Cold who was still weaker then non-powered up perfect cell, which in term puts her below a FPSS in power in base form.
You can't put Bra at Vegito nd Brolly level, again even with her SS2 power she was above Mystic gohan but that was not above SS3 Goku, or at least not by much anyhow.
If you have proof that SS3 is vastly weaker then Mystic, now would be the time to prove it, but if i were you i'd read what i wrote about this topic above, which should clear up any confusion.
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