??????
|
Post by Eldagusto on Jan 8, 2017 7:26:52 GMT
The problem with power levels in DB is he tried to add a numerical value to them. That means things have to be precise and the higher it goes the crazier the numbers look. I'm convinced DB is the reason other Shonen fighting series don't use numerical power levels and just use class and rank systems. With those you don't have to be so damn precise and it gives people larger range to be categorized. Yu Yu Hakusho introduced power levels late in the game the same as DB, but it used a class system where E was the lowest and S was the highest. It was simple and allowed for fans to try to categorize characters earlier powers far better than DB fans can. That class system has wider range. Two C class fighters are not necessarily equal too each other. Earlier villains could be C class villains and still be stronger or weaker than each other. No one could exceed S class, which meant it was possible for one S class fighter to be much, much, much weaker than another S class fighter. When you are ranking characters that way it doesn't feel crazy and it doesn't force you try to do math. Naruto and Bleach even did it better IMO. They used positions and class as a measure of power. Again the wide range that allows guaranteed two people could be the same position/rank an vary widely in skill. It's enough for fans to understand the power differences between ranks without having too be so damn precise. Hell, even Digimon did it better I think with their whole Rookie, Champion, Ultimate, and Mega system lol. Actually Yuyu had a nonsensical numerical powerlevel at the end too, in the last story arch a Demon General is measuring Kurama's powerlevel on a dragonradar or something.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Symbiotic on Jan 8, 2017 9:28:39 GMT
Axalon: They reversed hard on that stance soon after the Justice League formed I think. They even found a way to make Doomsday deadlier, which just shouldn't be possible. Then a new Crisis happened thanks to Brainiac and I'm not sure what came after they changed the original COIE outcome.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 8, 2017 9:46:43 GMT
Whole Dragon Ball Super, really. Nothing in DBZ can ever hope to come across as bad as this (in spite there are no power level numbers!).
|
|
??????
|
Post by Xeno Black on Jan 8, 2017 10:51:26 GMT
Whole Dragon Ball Super, really. Nothing in DBZ can ever hope to come across as bad as this (in spite there are no power level numbers!). That and GT. Both series really such at making coherent power level scalings IMO.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Android 13 on Jan 8, 2017 18:45:11 GMT
Whole Dragon Ball Super, really. Nothing in DBZ can ever hope to come across as bad as this (in spite there are no power level numbers!). That and GT. Both series really such at making coherent power level scalings IMO. I agree.One thing that should have been avoided at all cost (but so far hasn't been neither in DBZ, Dragon Ball Super nor GT, good job Torimaya...) is the absurd power scaling.Power scaling there is almost impossible, on top of that, the Z-Fighters power levels are all over the place, Gohan base was at least twice above Baby Goten, while Baby Trunks (who was supposed to be quite weaker) nearly killed Goku, who at his base is stronger than SSJ Gohan and Goten and didn't even get a scratch, Baby Vegeta was leagues above SSJ3 Goku only as a Super Saiyan, Super 17 was supposed to be only twice as strong as Android 17, and while Base Vegeta was seemingly even with Hell Fighter 17, Super 17 mopped the floor with SSJ Vegeta, Goten, Trunks, Gohan and Majuub, without even trying.I could go on a lot more, but I think this suffices to show how retarded GT's power scaling really is.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Axalon on Jan 8, 2017 19:35:49 GMT
Super 17 was supposed to be only twice as strong as Android 17, Wat. I was so dumbstruck by this I had to go look it up, and it's TRUE. Just...WOW. So two 17's <= SS1 Vegito-level (since SS4 = Buu-saga Vegito)...but Perfect Cell (who has 17 and 18) < SS2 Gohan. I...what... Okay, so looking at the wiki since I can't be bothered to actually go back and watch GT, apparently he only got stronger than that because the heroes were a bunch of idiots and kept firing energy attacks for him to absorb, which just boosted his strength astronomically. Plus for some reason they never bothered transforming right away. Either way it's stupid, though at the very least he was SUPPOSED to be only 2x the power of 17's strength...and then freaking GOHAN fired a Kamehameha at him and started the chain of events...
|
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on Jan 8, 2017 19:51:33 GMT
Yeah, power levels should never have been introduced. They were made solely to make the villains look dumb/be shocked when their scouters are wrong or break. Ever since, people have been trying to calculate the numbers for people when numbers never mattered. Anyway, I was thinking about this today, and I think that Dragonball needs to introduce more villains where power doesn't matter. Zamasu was kind of like this, as he was immortal. So however strong the good guys were, Zamasu couldn't be killed, and the Z Fighters had to find a way to stop him that didn't mean killing him. They could do this with Zeno, seeing as he's an immature child with far too much power. If not him, then introduce villains who can work around the power in other ways. Baby is a good one to consider, and possibly some other mystic entities that have a variety of powers and abilities that make power largely irrelevant. I agree, I think it's time for a villain that ignores power entirely. Not to toot my own horn or anything, but the fanfic I'm working on (and someday hope to share to the world) has the Z-Fighters going up against a ghost villain. He can't hurt them directly, but they can't hurt him. Both sides have to be creative. SaucemonkeyI agree, I never liked the idea of zenkai. It was too broken. I like the idea of someone in the Otherworld Tournament using Fusion Dance and Goku wanting to learn it. Come to think of it, I would've liked Goku to lose to Pikkon. That would've given him some incentive to discover SS2. AxalonI think the Black saga would've been much better if the Mafuba had worked. It was better than pointless Vegito, potara retcon, inexplicable Spirit Bomb Sword, and the "everyone dies" ending.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Xeno Black on Jan 8, 2017 22:09:01 GMT
Yeah, power levels should never have been introduced. They were made solely to make the villains look dumb/be shocked when their scouters are wrong or break. Ever since, people have been trying to calculate the numbers for people when numbers never mattered. Anyway, I was thinking about this today, and I think that Dragonball needs to introduce more villains where power doesn't matter. Zamasu was kind of like this, as he was immortal. So however strong the good guys were, Zamasu couldn't be killed, and the Z Fighters had to find a way to stop him that didn't mean killing him. They could do this with Zeno, seeing as he's an immature child with far too much power. If not him, then introduce villains who can work around the power in other ways. Baby is a good one to consider, and possibly some other mystic entities that have a variety of powers and abilities that make power largely irrelevant. I agree, I think it's time for a villain that ignores power entirely. Not to toot my own horn or anything, but the fanfic I'm working on (and someday hope to share to the world) has the Z-Fighters going up against a ghost villain. He can't hurt them directly, but they can't hurt him. Both sides have to be creative. Saucemonkey I agree, I never liked the idea of zenkai. It was too broken. I like the idea of someone in the Otherworld Tournament using Fusion Dance and Goku wanting to learn it. Come to think of it, I would've liked Goku to lose to Pikkon. That would've given him some incentive to discover SS2. Axalon I think the Black saga would've been much better if the Mafuba had worked. It was better than pointless Vegito, potara retcon, inexplicable Spirit Bomb Sword, and the "everyone dies" ending. Not to go off topic, but I have a wonderful AU to share with you Ashanark that has similar elements to your fanfic. Basically it has ghosts that are trying to completely destroy Vegeta's life and they do a excellent job bringing our favorite saiyan prince to the brink of insanity. Here is the link: www.fanfiction.net/s/6760405/1/In-the-ShadowsP.S. - As a fellow fanfic writer myself, if you need any help, just let me know.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Symbiotic on Jan 8, 2017 22:57:03 GMT
I agree, I think it's time for a villain that ignores power entirely. Not to toot my own horn or anything, but the fanfic I'm working on (and someday hope to share to the world) has the Z-Fighters going up against a ghost villain. He can't hurt them directly, but they can't hurt him. Both sides have to be creative. Saucemonkey I agree, I never liked the idea of zenkai. It was too broken. I like the idea of someone in the Otherworld Tournament using Fusion Dance and Goku wanting to learn it. Come to think of it, I would've liked Goku to lose to Pikkon. That would've given him some incentive to discover SS2. Axalon I think the Black saga would've been much better if the Mafuba had worked. It was better than pointless Vegito, potara retcon, inexplicable Spirit Bomb Sword, and the "everyone dies" ending. Not to go off topic, but I have a wonderful AU to share with you Ashanark that has similar elements to your fanfic. Basically it has ghosts that are trying to completely destroy Vegeta's life and they do a excellent job bringing our favorite saiyan prince to the brink of insanity. Here is the link: www.fanfiction.net/s/6760405/1/In-the-ShadowsP.S. - As a fellow fanfic writer myself, if you need any help, just let me know. Now really not to go off-topic, but I know another fic with a similar setup called the Jabberwocky. It's supposed to be really creepy but I didn't stick around long enough to find out. To further totally- not-derail things, here's a Frieza returns from hell fic that I haven't touched.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Android 13 on Jan 8, 2017 23:08:55 GMT
Super 17 was supposed to be only twice as strong as Android 17, Wat. I was so dumbstruck by this I had to go look it up, and it's TRUE. Just...WOW. So two 17's <= SS1 Vegito-level (since SS4 = Buu-saga Vegito)...but Perfect Cell (who has 17 and 18) < SS2 Gohan. I...what... Okay, so looking at the wiki since I can't be bothered to actually go back and watch GT, apparently he only got stronger than that because the heroes were a bunch of idiots and kept firing energy attacks for him to absorb, which just boosted his strength astronomically. Plus for some reason they never bothered transforming right away. Either way it's stupid, though at the very least he was SUPPOSED to be only 2x the power of 17's strength...and then freaking GOHAN fired a Kamehameha at him and started the chain of events... Yeah, GT is full of such cases, one think I can remember now is that Cardinal Muchy-Muchy nearly killed Goku on Planet Luud, and suddenly Trunks fires a simple ki blast in his base and he freaking destroys him.Keep in mind this is Goku who is supposed to be as strong as Buu saga SSJ3 Goku.Just GT, nothing else needed to say, but I still love it despite it's flaws.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Xeno Black on Jan 8, 2017 23:21:45 GMT
Not to go off topic, but I have a wonderful AU to share with you Ashanark that has similar elements to your fanfic. Basically it has ghosts that are trying to completely destroy Vegeta's life and they do a excellent job bringing our favorite saiyan prince to the brink of insanity. Here is the link: www.fanfiction.net/s/6760405/1/In-the-ShadowsP.S. - As a fellow fanfic writer myself, if you need any help, just let me know. Now really not to go off-topic, but I know another fic with a similar setup called the Jabberwocky. It's supposed to be really creepy but I didn't stick around long enough to find out. To further totally- not-derail things, here's a Frieza returns from hell fic that I haven't touched. Nice, another dark Vegeta fanfic. Looking forward to it, especially considering in chapter 3 of my own fanfic I revealed some dark aspects about Vegeta's past. Gonna upload it REAL soon.
|
|