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Post by Eldagusto on Jan 6, 2017 21:59:40 GMT
So well Dragonball seems insane when you look back on it by the end of DBZ so I'm not going to bring that up, Anime version of the whole Manga really exaggerates and muddies a lot of rationality of the series.
So my two biggest power gap/disparity issues are pretty much the whole namek Saga, and the Pickles through Imperfect Cell period of the Android/Cell Saga.
I've said it before if I were to redo Dragonball with the edge of foresight I would have the first being able to shatter a Planet is Frieza, and I would prefer if Frieza needed to transform to do so, possibly to Final Form. I mean if we go with First Form Frieza can shatter a planet 10 times Earth's Density, then that should mean SSJ+ fights should wipe out all life on planets, with stray shots cracking open crusts at simplest. And not exaggerate everyones strength in the series before Z.
Vegeta introducing Zenkais just ruined everything. Before that the Series implied Martial Artists in General reached some sort of Improvement after a tough battle, after Zenkais many of the fanbase seem to treat it like only Saiyans improved after the Fight, which was inaccurate, as Veggy even mentioned both Gohan and Krillin kept improving while fighting Frieza. Pickles also seemed to be stronger after getting his ass kicked by 3rd form, just not dramatically stronger. But Veggy had the stupidest power jumps that practically ruin the series' sensibilities. And all the fanfiction like, the Multiverse stuff, just ignores the jump from Nappa to Frieza, like how they had Veggy Go SSJ in the Gast Special. Its just silly, they make a big deal due to drama that Veggy had a huge boost of power after Earth, but really it was more the people he fought were cowards and that they only really were used to fighting those weaker then themselves. But Veggy goes from Weaker than Zarbon to stronger, yeah that is okay. But then smashed by Recoome he goes up to being able to smash Jeice... less fine but still okay. Then after a minor fight where he doesn't really get injured he is fighting Frieza who was able to shatter his homeworld... I would have been more comfortable with Veggy weaker then Ginyu by the time he fights Frieza, but its arguable, maybe he was half Frieza's strength as Frieza didn't strain himself too much and rushed to 2nd form. Then he jumped to being able to fight final form Frieza... kinda... I like to think he was actually around, read slightly weaker, then Pickles was at that level but high on his power. Yeah he was able to keep up with Frieza's movements but I read that as he was standing back managed better concentration. At this point his Zenkai boosts were mostly maxing out as he was clearly not wanting to fight Pickles after he thrashed Gohan.
Then we have the Cell Saga. Yeah its cool, really cool seeing Pickles fight. But then Cell shows up... and I reaaaally find it lame how much stronger he got from slurping people. He was first noticeably dominated by Pickles. But after Eating People he was ridiculously stronger then Pickles. Then he fights 16 who whoops his ass, but then he becomes Imperfect and he has an even easier time Whooping 16's ass, and then Super Vegeta has about as easy a time whooping his Ass, but then Perfect Cell also has a similiarly easy time whooping his ass! I think it would have been better if 1st form Cell was just a step above Android 17, like about the same level as Pickles going all out. With 16 being stronger but not necessarily stronger then both Android 17 and 18 put together, with Imperfect Cell able to take maybe the 3 of them put together but not without great effort. And Super Vegeta more comparable to Goku vs Nappa, where he is faster and just a step above Cell but not able to effortlessly destroy him without full powered attacks. And Perfect Cell being even stronger, with him getting even stronger after the 10 days as he was essentially stretching his legs, but not a significant boost. With Super Perfect Cell being Cell maxing his Zenkai boost, similiar to Veggy mostly maxing out his after he died on Namek, so like SSJ 2 Super Perfect Cell is more like Double his first fight with Super Vegeta's level.
Thoughts? Any particular period of power growth that bothers you?
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Post by Axalon on Jan 6, 2017 22:57:56 GMT
Easily the Buu Saga.
Vegeta sets the entire tone for it with his famous "Bargain Sale" line. The legendary transformation (no, not the Broly one) of Super Saiyan, the lynchpin transformation that enabled Goku to defeat Frieza after so much sacrifice and hardship is now an effortless toy for children.
Also Gohan's completely slacked off his training, but I won't delve into that particular aspect of his character, that's more suited to an entire thread devoted to just Gohan.
Then Babadi and Supreme Kai show up, and the Saiyans proceed to make a mockery of "mighty" beings such as Pui Pui. Then Buu wakes up and of course he's leagues above everyone else. Then Goku reveals he can transform into Fabio and go even further BEYOND.
Goku has also revealed that he just happened to learn a magical fusion dance that will let Goten and Trunks fuse into a singular being to help fight Buu. Anyway, then Gotenks does in a couple of days what took Goku seven years to do, learn SS3. So not only has SS1 been rendered a child's toy, but now SS3, the most powerful Super Saiyan form seen to date at this point in time, is also a child's plaything. But on top of all that Goten and Trunks still can't even go SS2 when unfused.
But Buu's also transforming. First he splits himself in half between his good and evil selves. Then he eats his other half and becomes Super Buu, and spontaneously gains the ability to sense ki. Then he screams his way out of the HTC after Piccolo destroys the exit, something even he didn't realize he could do, and something Gotenks is able to duplicate after powering up sufficiently.
But that's not all. Gohan endures 25 hours of boredom and suddenly now HE's the top dog. Effortlessly defeating Super Buu while Goten/Trunks/Piccolo stand around slackjawed in awe.
Can you imagine how infuriated Vegeta would be if he was around to actually witness all these events? First two children fuse together to form an even more obnoxious child, and they unlock a higher form of Super Saiyan than he's able to achieve in his lifetime in only a few days. Then Gohan sits around on his ass for ONE day and becomes the strongest unfused character in the entire saga. The closest thing he had to compensate was making a deal with the devil for a small boost that in the end amounted to nothing.
But then Buu comes up with a novel idea...he just starts absorbing other people! So now he's like Cell, except instead of two specific individuals, he can absorb anyone and get stronger forms. Gotenks literally is a plot device to further prop up Buu's power, and Gohan soon follows after him. But that's okay...because it turns out that these little earrings here have a BETTER form of fusion than the dancing kind, and without a time limit to boot! Well, for now at any rate. So Goku wants to fuse with Gohan, but he gets eaten.
But then Other World decides the crisis is grave enough that they find the strongest warrior they can muster and drag him back to the land of the living to fight Buu...Vegeta. So Vegito happens, and then he effortlessly just thrashes Buuhan. In fact, it isn't even a fight. Buuhan's like a child compared to him.
But now there's a problem. Vegito's TOO powerful. How to solve this problem with a fusion with no time limit? Have him PLAN to get absorbed by Buu (since just killing him and bringing everyone back with Shenron or Porunga doesn't seem to be an alternative) and Buu's insides can defuse Vegito even though he tried his hardest with his outsides to kill the guy. So Goku and Vegeta run around pulling out all of Buu's recent absorbees and soon the final battle begins.
We have a Buu who's weaker than when he first started, albeit more dangerous with what power he does have due to his willingness to use it, against a Goku and Vegeta who for all intents and purposes are roughly right where they were the last time they fought Buu. Gohan is vastly more powerful and is standing around on the revived Earth doing nothing until he contributes to Goku's Spirit Bomb, and even the annoying Gotenks, who we spent so much time on, stands around as his defused selves doing the exact same thing as Gohan.
Buu is finally defeated by the Spirit Bomb, becoming the first villain in the franchise to actually get killed by the technique (though admittedly it was much, much more powerful than the ones Vegeta or Frieza were hit by).
Then we randomly skip ahead to the future to another tournament where Buu's been resurrected as Uub, and Goku flies off with Uub under his wing just so he can have an entertaining fight in the future one day.
Poor Vegeta.
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Post by Azoth on Jan 7, 2017 0:56:41 GMT
Goten and Kid Trunks shouldn't be Super Saiyans. Let's just get that out there. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and even Future Trunks WORKED for that, and then these kids just show up and can do it without trying. So no, they don't get it. Make then do some work.
Anyway, part of the problem here is the characters themselves and how they're used. First, we can give Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Piccolo the Kaioken. This will allow them to keep up much longer than before, and be viable against the Androids and Cell. Hell, let's give it to Krillin, too. The bald bastard deserves it. Sure, Kaioken won't keep up with SSJ, but remember that our Earthling heroes are no slouches when it comes to strength. Kamiccolo with KK could definitely compete with Cell with some training (say it takes them longer to adjust than it did for Goku.) Plus, with Zeno's tournament coming up, with the existence of your universe on the line, Kaioken could even the odds against some of the fighters of other universes.
Second, have the whole Buu debacle kick Gohan's ass into at lest training to maintain his strength. I get that he doesn't want to fight, but he has things he cares about, and even he must realize that Goku won't always be around. DBM U16 Gohan is the perfect example of what he should be. He's mature, responsible, and fatherly, while still training in case shit gets real. A Mystic Gohan that kept in shape could have held the line better against the resurrected Freeza while not overwhelming Goku/Vegeta.
Also, let's remember that our characters, while strong (even with KK), also are martial artists, and may very well have come up with new techniques and ideas for combating threats, particularly Vegeta and Piccolo. These techniques could be used to help defeat newer foes, while working around the power creep other characters are trapped in. As an example, look at Savoir of Demons, which remembers that there's other people around besides Goku and Vegeta, AND MAKES THEM USEFUL. THEY DO THINGS. They use their abilities to face off against opponents that should be their greater.
I could go on, but then I'd be rewriting the series from the ground up, basically. I don't like having useless characters laying around my stories, and I think DB as a whole suffers from character bloat.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 7, 2017 1:18:05 GMT
Goten and Kid Trunks shouldn't be Super Saiyans. Let's just get that out there. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and even Future Trunks WORKED for that, and then these kids just show up and can do it without trying. So no, they don't get it. Make then do some work. Totally agree here. ...Technically Future Trunks doesn't seem to really work for it either in the manga, but this is where I believe Toei did a much better job with him in the anime when he got it when Future Gohan dies. Definitely agree on character bloat. What confuses me is that Toriyama has clearly shown that he's fine with some characters moving on. Oh okay, maybe he forgot the occasional character, but others had their story arc, completed it, and moved on. Gohan wants to take Guile's advice and go home and be a family man? Let him. But don't keep teasing that maybe he's taken up training again. Gohan clearly prioritizes his family over training and tournaments. Let him go. Similar situations can occur for other characters. Krillin for instance.
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 7, 2017 2:14:41 GMT
The Freeza arc is where power levels got out of hand and employed a lot of plot devices that carried over in later arcs that many people (myself included) really disliked. Zenkai, Namkian Assimilation/Fusion, unlocked potential power ups, and new transformations that only got worse later on and eventually became what the series is known for. All those elements were primary used to help the heroes catch up to Freeza. Freeza was every bit as powerful as he was said to be the heroes needed these things just to stand a chance against him. Hell, some of them needed to abuse these just to keep up with him. Goku and Vegeta got as strong as they did through abusing zenkai, while Krillin's power up from the Grand Elder would made him strong enough to deal with Nappa and Vegeta, but it wasn't enough to catch up to the current threats. It certainly wasn't enough to compete with Saiyan and Piccolo power ups (which transitioned the series to being about them, later would knock Piccolo out, then later knock out Vegeta before new material switched out Gohan for Vegeta).
Skill and technique were all about phased out in Freeza arc. It turned into who had the bigger power. That made most of the cast useless or just background character until Toriyama found a way to keep them relevant to the story for a minute before they were put back into the background. Fights started becoming more generic and the fighting styles started to blur together. It all stems from this arc. Toriyama was more of a straightforward writer he didn't balance these elements out or find a way to have Freeza be an overarching villain the heroes could gradually work their way up to with different encounters, but instead had them need to beat Freeza on Namek with their first encounter with him despite being hopelessly outmatched. Had Freeza been injured so bad by the Spirit Bomb and had to retreat like Vegeta did on Earth it would have bough the group some time to work and train to try to close the gap and giving everyone a fair shot before Goku ultimately went Super Saiyan to defeat him so the others wouldn't be so far beyond.
That would have weakened the power increase somewhat, but it would have balanced things out far better in the long run. If I were to redo Dragon Ball I would change the Freeza arc to break things up and balance it out.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 7, 2017 3:41:50 GMT
Son PanTotally agree. I'll go out on a limb here and say they shouldn't have been destroying the moon as far back as DB. Now you have fighters hundreds of thousands times stronger than Roshi, so the power just starts getting ridiculous yet the collateral damage is bizarrely kept to a minimum. Destroying a planet is so low effort that power is best demonstrated as "Now this person punches a lot HARDER" or "Now he can take a punch much more easily from X person". Removing destroying moons and planets while keeping the "Punch Harder, Punch Faster" powerup mentality I don't think changes all that much thematically, though it would require rewriting the actual nitty-gritty of the plot itself. Yu Yu Hakusho I think is a good example of a DBZ-esque mentality without destroying planets or universes. Now granted, part of this is likely a writing style of flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants, but still.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 3:42:29 GMT
I think the power creep during the Freeza saga would've felt somewhat less ridiculous without the power levels. Slapping on a huge, arbitrary number showing that the characters was hundreds or thousands of times stronger than the last guy is what made it worse in my opinion. With power levels: Early Saiyan saga Goku: ~400 Post-King Kai Training Goku: >8,000 Vegeta: 18,000 Post 100g training Goku: 90,000 (11x stronger in a week!) Post-Zenkai Goku: 3,000,000 (33x stronger!) Kaioken x20: 60 million SSJ Goku: 150 million 100% Freeza: 120 million (226x stronger than his first form and 6666x stronger than the last villain!) Without power levels: Early Saiyan saga Goku: Stronger than Piccolo during the 23th World Tournament Post-King Kai Training Goku: Even stronger! Vegeta: Stronger than Nappa! Post 100g training Goku: Strong enough to impress Vegeta and scare Ginyu with Kaioken Post-Zenkai Goku: Strong enough to fight suppressed final form Freeza Kaioken MAX: Strong enough to fight 50% Freeza SSJ Goku: LEGENDARY POWER THAT SCARES FREEZA! 100% Freeza: WAY STRONGER THAN BEFORE but not as strong as SSJ I agree that it's still a big jump in power in such a short time but I think it works better to leave the gap between the characters ambiguous. I liked that in U9 they avoided giving an exact multiplier for Kaioken to discourage fans from trying to guess their power levels .
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Post by Ashanark on Jan 7, 2017 5:10:31 GMT
I think it's not so much how strong characters get that's ridiculous, because DBZ itself seems to have fairly consistent feats: 1. Frieza-level: can destroy the planet if they want to. 2. MSS-level: the "splash damage" of their attacks is strong enough to destroy a planet, meaning they have to be careful when they fight so as to not blow themselves up. 3. SS2-level: strong enough to destroy a "solar system," aura is strong enough to overpower Super-Saiyan level people (according to the anime) 4. SS3-level: aura alone puts the planet at risk It seems like a gradual, natural progression all throughout DBZ, which is why GT and Super feel a lot weaker even though they're technically lightyears stronger. Like @skar said, it's the power level numbers that make things ridiculous. In hindsight, much of what happens in Dragon Ball is irrelevant. If I were to rewrite the series from the ground up, as Azoth said, I'd remove a lot. First: give Frieza only two forms. Hear me out. The situation with 4th form Frieza is basically the same as it was with 2nd form Frieza: an overconfident Vegeta gets his hiney handed to him. Therefore, what narrative purpose do the 2nd and 3rd forms serve? Giving Piccolo another fight? Increasing the sense of being overwhelmed? I think they're redundant and obsolete. So, changes I'd make to the Namek saga: -- Frieza has only two forms. -- When Goku lands on Namek, he is already strong enough to fight Final Form Frieza but holds back against the Ginyus. -- Gohan, Krillin, and Dende wish back Piccolo a lot earlier. Guru dies. Piccolo, en route to Gohan, finds and fuses with Nail. -- Goku holds back majorly against Ginyu, but Ginyu realizes how strong he is and swaps with him. -- Ginyu-Goku goes to get the Dragon Balls and beats up Gohan and Krillin. (Perhaps Gohan gets a rage moment against Ginyu, like he did against 2nd-form Frieza?) Piccolo arrives, and fights with Ginyu. Even with his power severely reduced, Ginyu is an even match for the new Piccolo (who is still loads stronger than Gohan and Krillin. -- Vegeta shows up, beats Ginyu, Goku swaps back and is placed in the healing chamber. Frieza arrives. -- Vegeta fights 1st form Frieza and goads him to transform. Final form Frieza beats Vegeta. Goku heals and comes to the battlefield. Events occur as normal.
In short: rewrite the arc to eliminate Frieza's 2nd and 3rd forms, which don't accomplish much narratively. The negatives are that Piccolo's fusion with Nail is not as ridiculous and he doesn't get his awesome fight against Frieza, and Frieza is relatively not as impressive. The pros are that the story moves more quickly, power levels are not as ridiculous, the plot relies less on zenkai's, and Ginyu gets a better fight in Goku's body.
I also like what Son Pan said about not having to beat Frieza in one go. That would've been nice. Second: for Buu saga, eliminate SS3 and don't make Goten and Trunks have Super Saiyan. SS3 diminishes the importance of SS2, negates much of the drama of the Goku vs. Majin Vegeta fight, and ultimately did not accomplish anything important. Goten and Trunks getting Super Saiyan so easily cheapens the legendary transformation; additionally, if they don't have it, relying on the two boys to fuse into Gotenks is more of a matter of faith. (The Z-Fighters have to hope the fusion will be strong enough in base to defeat Fat Buu.) It would be much more dramatic if Gotenks realizes he'll have to unlock Super Saiyan in order to beat Super Buu, since neither of his components had managed to achieve it before. With this change, the majesty of both SS1 and SS2 are preserved, and on the whole the saga's power levels are kept lower and more reasonable. There's also general Buu saga stuff that I'd change (like making sure Gohan isn't wasted) but that doesn't really have to do with power levels or transformations. I also agree with Axalon that having Roshi destroy the moon in Dragon Ball was a bad idea. I think planetary destruction should be something only final-form Frieza (and people beyond that) can do.
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 7, 2017 7:16:51 GMT
You could probably still keep Freeza with four forms if the story was structured differently. If they fought Freeza in a grand total of three times each form could get a good showing and be used a cool measuring stick. If their first battle with him happened on Namek with Goku, Vegeta, Krillin, Gohan, and Nail being strong enough to overpower Freeza in his first form and he transformed like in canon to force them to retreat. Nail has to sacrifice himself for the group to get away. Freeza instead of killing Nail takes him on his space ship to one his controlled planets to torture information out of Nail on how to use the Dragon Balls. It sets up a rescue arc where the heroes have to find Nail and train to defeat Freeza or in Vegeta's case steal the DBs.
The gang train on their way last minute power ups. The heroes get strong enough to challenge Freeza's second form only to have him reveal his third form and he nearly kills them. Bulma and Dende use the wishes to bring Piccolo and Chaozu back, but are informed by King Kai to use the last wish to take everyone in their group to Earth. They are saved (Vegeta is also included in the wish). They are saved, but Freeza knows they are from Earth he is heading there first to get revenge for losing his wish. It gives everyone a year to prepare for his arrival. Yamecha and Tien stay on King Kai's to train. Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, and Krillin train on Earth. Nail can train Piccolo in Namkian way of the warrior or something to help him get stronger. Vegeta would do solo training, while Goku, Krillin, and Gohan training together.
Freeza comes to Earth with his most elite warriors. The guys use a wish to bring back Yamecha and Tien. You have villain and hero team face each other off on Earth. That is when Freeza reveals his true form. Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo take their shot at Freeza. Gohan and the others deal with the elite warriors. The others get major opponents to defeat and showcase their improvements. Eventually they would head over to Freeza to help out. Piccolo and Vegeta each get their shots in before Freeza proves too much for them. Eventually Goku is pushed too far by Freeza's cruelty and rages out to become a Super Saiyan to win it.
The arc would probably still be as long as it was before, but its balanced out better to training and power ups for the characters to gradually grow while keeping Freeza nearly as powerful as he was. The end result is everyone in the gang is high levels to at least be in the same range as each other and Non-Saiyans can still conceivably keep up.
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Post by Eldagusto on Jan 7, 2017 12:13:04 GMT
Well actually Goku Fighting Raditz Goku is actually more a power level 900 as that is what his Kamehameha statted as.
But we don't have Power levels past 1 million so everything after that depends on peoples opinions and is no way a sure thing. As Multiverse views the Final Form Frieza's hundred percent power not literally 100 times stronger then when just transforms.
I really wish that 3rd Form Frieza had more screen time, it was lame that he was only on for a few minutes. He should have been allowed to show some cool tricks, and the form seems to be built for physical combat but we don't get to see that.
Son Pan that is a good idea, I wish they did have them separate from Frieza after hitting him with the Spirit bomb, so they could train and plan. It would have felt better to my sensibilities.
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Post by Symbiotic on Jan 7, 2017 19:24:39 GMT
@everyone: According to David Starlingm and this helpful site the moon in Dragon Ball is much smaller and closer than the one in our world, and the power needed to destroy it is much different. I'm not creative enough to have any fixes for DBZ, but if I had to I'd just take away everything post Android-Saga from the Super Saiyan state. You go super saiyan, you become stronger, if you want you can throw in techniques to amp up the power at the cost of stamina and eventually speed. Power levels wouldn't stray too far from Frieza saga levels for the Super Saiyans or the villains, maybe getting 5x stronger than Frieza at most before adding in the insanity that is fusion and absorption. Really the best change you could make would be getting rid of the power levels. You don't see that in other series, and where you do it leads to a lot of terrible questions ("Superman is benching five times Earth's weight for how many days? And he still keeps up a human disguise and doesn't turn people to mist when he punches them?").
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Post by Axalon on Jan 7, 2017 20:55:56 GMT
Really the best change you could make would be getting rid of the power levels. You don't see that in other series, and where you do it leads to a lot of terrible questions ("Superman is benching five times Earth's weight for how many days? And he still keeps up a human disguise and doesn't turn people to mist when he punches them?"). Well, I mean, that IS why he's Superman. Interestingly enough, I dunno how many people have seen the old Justice League Unlimited cartoon, but he gives a famous speech describing exactly what you're talking about and how paranoid he is that he could accidentally just kill someone, as he constantly feels like the entire world is made of flimsy cardboard while everyone else has free reign to act how they see fit.
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Post by Azoth on Jan 7, 2017 21:09:56 GMT
Yeah, power levels should never have been introduced. They were made solely to make the villains look dumb/be shocked when their scouters are wrong or break. Ever since, people have been trying to calculate the numbers for people when numbers never mattered.
Anyway, I was thinking about this today, and I think that Dragonball needs to introduce more villains where power doesn't matter. Zamasu was kind of like this, as he was immortal. So however strong the good guys were, Zamasu couldn't be killed, and the Z Fighters had to find a way to stop him that didn't mean killing him. They could do this with Zeno, seeing as he's an immature child with far too much power. If not him, then introduce villains who can work around the power in other ways. Baby is a good one to consider, and possibly some other mystic entities that have a variety of powers and abilities that make power largely irrelevant.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 7, 2017 22:01:29 GMT
^But that would require getting more creative than someone who's just way stronger and can regenerate. Can't have that.
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 7, 2017 23:15:41 GMT
The problem with power levels in DB is he tried to add a numerical value to them. That means things have to be precise and the higher it goes the crazier the numbers look. I'm convinced DB is the reason other Shonen fighting series don't use numerical power levels and just use class and rank systems. With those you don't have to be so damn precise and it gives people larger range to be categorized.
Yu Yu Hakusho introduced power levels late in the game the same as DB, but it used a class system where E was the lowest and S was the highest. It was simple and allowed for fans to try to categorize characters earlier powers far better than DB fans can. That class system has wider range. Two C class fighters are not necessarily equal too each other. Earlier villains could be C class villains and still be stronger or weaker than each other. No one could exceed S class, which meant it was possible for one S class fighter to be much, much, much weaker than another S class fighter. When you are ranking characters that way it doesn't feel crazy and it doesn't force you try to do math.
Naruto and Bleach even did it better IMO. They used positions and class as a measure of power. Again the wide range that allows guaranteed two people could be the same position/rank an vary widely in skill. It's enough for fans to understand the power differences between ranks without having too be so damn precise. Hell, even Digimon did it better I think with their whole Rookie, Champion, Ultimate, and Mega system lol.
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Post by Saucemonkey on Jan 7, 2017 23:21:26 GMT
I was actually talking about something similar to this with my friends in the DBM Fan Chat room on Chatango (I wouldn't go there if you expect to talk about DBM by the way, and DBZ is barely discussed either for that matter. Honestly the name should probably be changed but that's how the chatroom started) and my biggest complaint is definitely Zenkais. They really cheapened Dragon Balls message of training and overcoming your limits and ultimately made things out to be that Goku just got stronger because he got beat up a lot, which wasn't even true anyway.
There are a lot of good things about the Frieza Saga, but the power disparity and needing multiple plot devices to catch up really dampen my opinion on it, and out of the four major sagas I only prefer it to Buu. The Cell Saga was highly reliant on them as well, but I feel like it did a better job at foreshadowing SSj2 (even better than SSj1 perhaps) and went about power-ups in more interesting ways. The Saiyan Saga is definitely my favorite of all of them, as it really doesn't have much in the way of cheesy plot device power-ups, with most of the cast just getting stronger off the back of training with beings that were their greaters.
I feel like it isn't even an unpopular opinion to state that Power Levels blow anymore, as that's all I ever see being stated, and yet people still like to bring them up all the time. I'm honestly not sure if Toriyama intended them to be used as a way to ridicule the villians, who were constantly flabbergasted by the power levels being presented even if they were lower than their own (Vegeta for instance), but that's really how it comes off sometimes. The only thing that really nags at me in connection with Power Levels is how Frieza jumps from 530,000 from his first form to 120,000,000, while Goku goes from 90,000 to 3,000,000 in ONE Zenkai (which Vegeta had abused many, many times more and was nowhere near that strong). The thing is, they could have just slashed off a zero and it would have made so much more sense. Frieza going from 3 million in third form to 6 million at 50% power is still double his former strength, and Goku at 300,000 after his Zenkai boost would still allow him to be at 6 million with a 20x Kaio-Ken, and then later at 15 million with Super Saiyan (if you subscribe to the belief that Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier that is, which I don't, but I'll use it here for the sake of arguement). There doesn't really seem to be any huge issue there, at 12 million, Frieza is still far and away the biggest powerhouse in the galaxy (as far as we were aware at that point) and allows for Goku to have a much more believable jump in power from his Zenkai. It's just such a simple little change that would make so much more sense in my opinion, and as far as I'm aware, the 120/150 million numbers were never a part of official canon anyway.
The only thing that really bothered me in the Cell Saga was when Cell returned from being destroyed and seemed either stronger than or equal to SSj2 Gohan. It honestly seemed kind of pointless to even give him the power-up to begin with, since Gohan kills him about 5 minutes later anyway. I would have just had it so that when Cell returned, he was able to get a sneak shot in on Gohan that crippled him (as with what happened when Gohan tried to block Cell's shot at Vegeta) that put Cell at a massive advantage during their famous beam struggle. It was explained away as a Zenkai, but they were always horse shit so I'd rather just try to do away with them whenever possible.
Of course the Buu Saga is where everything went wacky, and I'm not even sure I'd be able to say anything original here that someone already hasn't brought up before. Goten and Trunks shouldn't have had SSj, SSj3 made Goku and Vegeta's fight basically tensionless, ect. I actually do like the idea of fusion, though, I just wish that it had been alluded to earlier and used more than to just bring Gotenks into existence. For instance, in order to show that it existed I would have had a character enter into the Otherworld Tournament (filler I know, but pretty good filler outside of a few small bits) using the fusion dance. That's when Goku takes note of it and decides that he should try to learn how that works sometime, and then he either beats the fusion dancer or the fusion dancer is beaten by Pikkon. It's just an offhand thing that would have given the audience a bit of foreshadowing. As for it being better used, I would have tried to have other characters learn the dance, like Tien/Yamcha/Krillin and have them attempt to do some fighting while fused. They probably wouldn't have been able to do much against Buu, but it would have been super interesting if Yamcha and Krillin had decided to try it out when Buu escaped from the ROSAT as a last ditch effort.
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Post by Axalon on Jan 8, 2017 0:17:07 GMT
I feel like it isn't even an unpopular opinion to state that Power Levels blow anymore, as that's all I ever see being stated, and yet people still like to bring them up all the time. I'm honestly not sure if Toriyama intended them to be used as a way to ridicule the villians, who were constantly flabbergasted by the power levels being presented even if they were lower than their own (Vegeta for instance), but that's really how it comes off sometimes. I feel it was used as both a serious measuring device and as a way to ridicule villains. Power levels were only "bad" for people with scouters because the heroes knew how to mask their power levels, subsequently surprising the villains with a burst of power they hadn't considered possible because their scouter gave them a flat number. It was a ham-fisted way to tell people not to underestimate your opponent based on initial appearances, something Toriyama also likes to display with powerful figures not looking as intimidating as their minions, typically by being smaller. Vegeta being smaller than Nappa for instance. For opponents who can't mask their power levels and don't have any transformations or Kaiokens sitting around in their back pocket...scouters are actually pretty good. They'll be able to tell you exactly how strong they are, and what you can expect from them. Once Nail powered up to his max, Frieza knew exactly what he could expect from Nail, as an example. That said, thanks to the way storytelling is told in DBZ power levels DO still matter, even if the numbers themselves became meaningless long ago. It doesn't matter how many impressive techniques or how long Krillin plans out a strategy--he's never going to defeat someone like Cell. This is why so many people were excited that they brought the Mafuba technique back in DBS to defeat an opponent that power alone could NOT defeat, and then were outraged when Goku was an idiot so the technique never got a chance to be used properly, instead giving way to more generic powerups and techniques.
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Post by Azoth on Jan 8, 2017 0:25:55 GMT
SaucemonkeyI just read that part in the manga, and Goku says that the fusees have to be of similar power and physical size. /pedantics Otherwise, it seems to me that when Buu Saga came around, Toriyama was running a bit dry on ideas or his editors weren't as good as the ones for Freeza/Saiyan Saga. AxalonYup. I would have had Goku get knocked out by Black, Trunks use the mafuba to seal away Zamasu, and Vegeta kill Black. Vegeta gets his Goku kill/defeat (sorta), Trunks gets to be a Big Damn Hero, and nobody has to bug Zeno. Maybe Goku can bug the future namekians for their dragonballs to fix up the mess a bit. A much happier ending than the doppelganger horror we got.
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Post by Symbiotic on Jan 8, 2017 2:21:36 GMT
Really the best change you could make would be getting rid of the power levels. You don't see that in other series, and where you do it leads to a lot of terrible questions ("Superman is benching five times Earth's weight for how many days? And he still keeps up a human disguise and doesn't turn people to mist when he punches them?"). Well, I mean, that IS why he's Superman. Interestingly enough, I dunno how many people have seen the old Justice League Unlimited cartoon, but he gives a famous speech describing exactly what you're talking about and how paranoid he is that he could accidentally just kill someone, as he constantly feels like the entire world is made of flimsy cardboard while everyone else has free reign to act how they see fit. Ah the old world of cardboard speech. Used in comic book forums Net wide to prove that animated Superman was much stronger than he'd shown in any other given fight. It's a good example of how different Superman must feel, but it wouldn't exactly reassure any human hearing that, especially someone who knew he spends most of his days as Clark Kent. I don't know, maybe I'm over analyzing but if someone is strong enough to endure the weight of the entire planet then maybe they, the rest of their species and any related rogues should move to somewhere in the asteroid belt. As a side bonus of that power creep in New 52 (maybe they reversed it, I haven't paid attention to comic news for months) you'll never get an explanation for why others on Kal's level with less restraint don't crack open the planet by accident.
I like Superman, but with the level of power he displays in the comics he has no business setting foot on Earth for longer than it takes to save it. I'd say a lot of people saw the cartoon. It was pretty popular & good too, with the honour of best Green Lantern adaptation
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Post by Axalon on Jan 8, 2017 2:26:50 GMT
Symbiotic I can't recall where I heard it, but I remember hearing the creators of the show deliberately used Superman as a punching bag for a lot of villains simply because he could take it while other heroes (usually Batman) couldn't. This also came with the unfortunate side effect of making Superman look a lot weaker than he should, which is no doubt where that criticism spawned from. To be fair, he IS weaker than his comic book counterpart, but then again almost every adaptation is weaker than the actual comic book counterparts anyway. I feel like the World of Cardboard speech was deliberate by the writers towards the end of the show as a kind of saving throw for all the previous fights where Superman looked like a chump. As for the New 52 last I heard was they'd reversed the power creep and actually made him a lot weaker than how he's normally depicted. But that was a little while ago, so I dunno what they're doing now. I too only catch bits and pieces from the comic book world these days.
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