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Post by Xeno Black on Mar 18, 2017 4:38:45 GMT
Here you can talk about characters you believe have been powered down / nerfed for plot, bias, or other (etc) reasons. For my first post, I shall create a scenario on how Piccolo could have gotten stronger.
Personally I believe that Piccolo and Nail was cheated from becoming stronger than they could have. For Piccolo it all started when he died against Nappa and was sent to King Kai's planet to train until resurrection via Porunga. While not having the exact same amount of time as Goku, Piccolo most likely still could have learned the kaioken which would have IMMENSELY helped Piccolo during the Namek saga. With a powerful base level (while truly unknown, the anime filler of the deceased warriors fighting against the dead Ginyu Force at least gives us a idea that Piccolo is above 40,000), the kaioken could have made Piccolo a lot more formidable against Frieza though his weaker power compared to post-Nail fusion will hit him hard.
But here is where Nail comes in...
After his grand battle against Frieza, if either Maima (3,300 PL) or / and Tsumuri (3,200 PL) survived and fused with a crippled Nail, our strongest namekian on Namek would not only be healed but also have augmented strength that I believe will multiply his power at least equivalent to first form Frieza.
Note: I am a firm believer that a namekian fusion multiplies the users strength immensely since when Piccolo fused with Nail, his power jumps from most likely not being a match to 1st form Frieza to being slightly stronger than his second form.
When Piccolo is resurrected, he meets up with the augmented Nail and both contestants battle against second form Frieza and despite neither being a match for him personally, their combined attacks damage Frieza to the point he transforms into his third form and defeats them both. After a series of events the namek saga concludes with both of them surviving and Frieza presumed deceased. But before Grand Elder Guru naturally passes on, he grants Moori ownership to Porunga and willingly merges with Nail to make him stronger than ever before (Nail can now fight against 3rd form Frieza easily).
When Moori, Dende, Cargo, and the rest of the nameks leave for new planet namek, only Piccolo and Nail remain on Earth to contribute to its defense while vowing to get stronger. After going through the Garlic Jr, Future Trunks, Dr. Wheelo, and Turles sagas, Lord Slug appears.
During the Lord Slug saga (Piccolo is now nearly a match for 2nd form Frieza with Nail being able to fight final form Frieza at his lowest percentages), Slug is defeated from a combination by Goku, Piccolo, and Nail (Vegeta in space with the other heroes like Tien and Gohan contributing to the minions). Nearly dead, Piccolo confronts Slug and offers to merge with him, with the ancient super namek reluctantly agrees to. With Piccolo now able to match Frieza around 50%, he is currently the strongest namek though Nail is not too far behind.
When the android saga begins, both Piccolo and Nail power has increased significantly after three years of training along with the threats they faced (both are still weaker compared to 100% Frieza though Piccolo can surpass him via kaioken). When Android 17 and 18 are released, both are defeated by 17 and venture to the lookout to rethink their strategy. When Piccolo decides to fuse with Kami, his base strength is slightly stronger compared to his canon counterpart at this point (not including knowing kaioken though his base power is so strong that he can only multiply by three folds). When he and Nail confront Cell, but hold him off until he escapes. When Vegeta and Trunks train in the HBTC, Piccolo confronts 17 as Nail and Tien spectate the battle. When Piccolo easily overpowers 17, Cell appears with Piccolo handling him as well via kaioken. Using trickery Cell absorbs 17 to achieve his semi-perfect form, which allows him to overpower Piccolo. Thanks to Tien and Goku, Nail saves Piccolo and both watch the rest of events when Cell achieves his perfect form.
When all the saiyans finish in the HBTC, both Piccolo and Nail go in and train for six solid months together. After coming to a agreement, both fight to the absolute limit with Piccolo coming out as the victor. Upon fusing with Nail and finishing his remaining six months, Piccolo is now strong enough to challenge Perfect Cell in his lowest forms and kill a Cell Jr, with his kaioken making him insanely strong (can only handle a 2X).
When the Cell Games conclude with Gohan killing Cell, Piccolo trains for a solid 7 years to the point he surpasses SSJ2 Gohan and is equivalent to SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta via kaioken. But when he is taken over by Babidi's magic, his power level soars to levels near SSJ3 Goku and uses a technique inherited by Guru to steal the Babidi magic for himself upon killing Babidi.
Note: Known as his Mind Break form, Piccolo can unlock his latent potential by becoming Majin Piccolo, though only his eyes outline changes during this form.
After defeating Gohan and Shin, he brings hin to Dabura and Babidi as Majin Buu is released. Upon being released, Piccolo kills Dabura and Babidi (while stealing his manipulation magic) and challenges Buu to a fight to the death. Despite his incredible power, Piccolo loses though he is spared. While trying to make a plan, Piccolo realizes that the earthlings are gathering the dragon balls to correct Majin Vegeta's damage. With a new idea in mind, Piccolo steals the collected dragon balls and wishes the resurrection of King Piccolo in his immediate area. With his rebirth, Piccolo orders Shenron to go away (thus saving one wish) as he faces the Daimao.
Despite Daimao getting stronger in Hell (training, stealing demon ki, etc), he easily loses to Piccolo who offers fusion with Daimao. Upon agreement, Piccolo fuses with him and truly becomes complete, with his base strength being greater than Super Buu (not including kaioken and Majin form). With this power he easily fights off Super Buu though he is absorbed, freed, and watches the death of Buu later on. Nonetheless Piccolo's strength is only surpassed by Ultimate Gohan (can briefly match with Majin and Kaioken) and Vegito.
Piccolo then lives the rest of his days in Z in peace, unless Super and GT happens.
FIN.....
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Post by Symbiotic on Mar 18, 2017 13:50:44 GMT
While Gohan takes the cake for most watered down in Z only, if you consider Super then Frieza takes the lifetime prize. Paranoid, fears the legend of the Super Saiyan, knows for a fact he can surpass Majin Buu in a few months, doesn't even get a good cardio workout going. In 4 months he was able to shoot up from well, Frieza Saga levels to above Super Saiyan God or Super Vegito if you don't believe in the former. With a light training session every now and then he could've easily been at Perfect Cell's level by the time the Namek saga rolled around.
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Post by Xeno Black on Mar 18, 2017 17:42:50 GMT
While Gohan takes the cake for most watered down in Z only, if you consider Super then Frieza takes the lifetime prize. Paranoid, fears the legend of the Super Saiyan, knows for a fact he can surpass Majin Buu in a few months, doesn't even get a good cardio workout going. In 4 months he was able to shoot up from well, Frieza Saga levels to above Super Saiyan God or Super Vegito if you don't believe in the former. With a light training session every now and then he could've easily been at Perfect Cell's level by the time the Namek saga rolled around. Oh yeah both Gohan and Frieza have been nerfed despite how great their potential is. Gohan became weaker over time while Frieza didn't train because he was never pushed, thus making him as strong as he was in the namek saga when he could have easily surpass Buuhan (still cant wrap my head around that). But going back to Gohan, his decline started after the Cell Games due to him neglecting his training for seven years. While understandable due to no threats (minus Bojack), no Goku, his overbearing mother, and caring for Goten, but if he continued training he would have still remained the strongest while still being fit (only surpassed when Goku goes SSJ3). With this he could have easily defeat Dabura (most likely) and fair far much better against Fat Buu before losing. To backtrack a little, Gohan should have learned Super Saiyan when he believed his father died while fighting against 100% Frieza. Such power would have changed his life forever along with him learning Instant Transmission, kaioken, and the spirit bomb from Goku during the three year / HBTC training. Back in the present, while training in otherworld with the supreme kais, Gohan learns Super Saiyan 3 when Goku shows him though he immediately forgoes that and his other transformations for his "Ultimate / Mystic Form". With such incredible strength he easily overpowers Super Buu and is a equal to Buutenks in strength and in mind games (similar in Budokai 2). Tired yet amazed at Gohan, Buutenks absorbs Gohan before the powerful hybrid attempted to transform into a super saiyan to further augment his strength. After being freed from Buu with his tyranny ending, Gohan contributes to the Janemba crisis (defeats Frieza, Cell, Broly, Bojack, etc) and was a big help during the Hirudegarn epidemic. As for Super and GT, that is a discussion for another time. XD |
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Post by Symbiotic on Mar 18, 2017 20:10:42 GMT
While Gohan takes the cake for most watered down in Z only, if you consider Super then Frieza takes the lifetime prize. Paranoid, fears the legend of the Super Saiyan, knows for a fact he can surpass Majin Buu in a few months, doesn't even get a good cardio workout going. In 4 months he was able to shoot up from well, Frieza Saga levels to above Super Saiyan God or Super Vegito if you don't believe in the former. With a light training session every now and then he could've easily been at Perfect Cell's level by the time the Namek saga rolled around. Oh yeah both Gohan and Frieza have been nerfed despite how great their potential is. Gohan became weaker over time while Frieza didn't train because he was never pushed, thus making him as strong as he was in the namek saga when he could have easily surpass Buuhan (still cant wrap my head around that). But going back to Gohan, his decline started after the Cell Games due to him neglecting his training for seven years. While understandable due to no threats (minus Bojack), no Goku, his overbearing mother, and caring for Goten, but if he continued training he would have still remained the strongest while still being fit (only surpassed when Goku goes SSJ3). With this he could have easily defeat Dabura (most likely) and fair far much better against Fat Buu before losing. To backtrack a little, Gohan should have learned Super Saiyan when he believed his father died while fighting against 100% Frieza. Such power would have changed his life forever along with him learning Instant Transmission, kaioken, and the spirit bomb from Goku during the three year / HBTC training. Back in the present, while training in otherworld with the supreme kais, Gohan learns Super Saiyan 3 when Goku shows him though he immediately forgoes that and his other transformations for his "Ultimate / Mystic Form". With such incredible strength he easily overpowers Super Buu and is a equal to Buutenks in strength and in mind games (similar in Budokai 2). Tired yet amazed at Gohan, Buutenks absorbs Gohan before the powerful hybrid attempted to transform into a super saiyan to further augment his strength. After being freed from Buu with his tyranny ending, Gohan contributes to the Janemba crisis (defeats Frieza, Cell, Broly, Bojack, etc) and was a big help during the Hirudegarn epidemic. As for Super and GT, that is a discussion for another time. XD Oh, you're talking about DBM? I thought we were sticking to canon. If you actually add in Bojack as canon, then all the post-Cell stuff falls apart because Gohan's main reason for neglecting his training ("No way anyone could exist as strong as Cell!") would be proven wrong. He'd have a reason to at least train to keep SS2 in case another wacky space gang stops by. I mean, it already happened once. Gohan wasn't in the right emotional state to transform at that point, and I don't think he was ever skilled enough to learn techniques that advanced. He has a lot of natural potential but his smarts don't lie with fighting like Goku. Though if Gohan had been Saiyan-level dedicated to training he might have become strong enough as a Super Saiyan 2 to be able to kill Majin Buu if worse came to worst. If his potential unlocked at that point would be any higher than in canon depends on your view of how old kai's power works, but he'd definitely be able to use it more effectively. About Frieza never being pushed, ignoring Cooler, he still had a father who was his near equal in strength and was proven to be severely paranoid. He already had imaginary reasons to become even more secure in his strength. Plus being at least able to give Beerus a casual workout ala SS God Goku couldn't have hurt his chances of not being hakai'ed. |
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Post by Xeno Black on Mar 19, 2017 2:23:48 GMT
Oh yeah both Gohan and Frieza have been nerfed despite how great their potential is. Gohan became weaker over time while Frieza didn't train because he was never pushed, thus making him as strong as he was in the namek saga when he could have easily surpass Buuhan (still cant wrap my head around that). But going back to Gohan, his decline started after the Cell Games due to him neglecting his training for seven years. While understandable due to no threats (minus Bojack), no Goku, his overbearing mother, and caring for Goten, but if he continued training he would have still remained the strongest while still being fit (only surpassed when Goku goes SSJ3). With this he could have easily defeat Dabura (most likely) and fair far much better against Fat Buu before losing. To backtrack a little, Gohan should have learned Super Saiyan when he believed his father died while fighting against 100% Frieza. Such power would have changed his life forever along with him learning Instant Transmission, kaioken, and the spirit bomb from Goku during the three year / HBTC training. Back in the present, while training in otherworld with the supreme kais, Gohan learns Super Saiyan 3 when Goku shows him though he immediately forgoes that and his other transformations for his "Ultimate / Mystic Form". With such incredible strength he easily overpowers Super Buu and is a equal to Buutenks in strength and in mind games (similar in Budokai 2). Tired yet amazed at Gohan, Buutenks absorbs Gohan before the powerful hybrid attempted to transform into a super saiyan to further augment his strength. After being freed from Buu with his tyranny ending, Gohan contributes to the Janemba crisis (defeats Frieza, Cell, Broly, Bojack, etc) and was a big help during the Hirudegarn epidemic. As for Super and GT, that is a discussion for another time. XD Oh, you're talking about DBM? I thought we were sticking to canon. If you actually add in Bojack as canon, then all the post-Cell stuff falls apart because Gohan's main reason for neglecting his training (" No way anyone could exist as strong as Cell!") would be proven wrong. He'd have a reason to at least train to keep SS2 in case another wacky space gang stops by. I mean, it already happened once. Gohan wasn't in the right emotional state to transform at that point, and I don't think he was ever skilled enough to learn techniques that advanced. He has a lot of natural potential but his smarts don't lie with fighting like Goku. Though if Gohan had been Saiyan-level dedicated to training he might have become strong enough as a Super Saiyan 2 to be able to kill Majin Buu if worse came to worst. If his potential unlocked at that point would be any higher than in canon depends on your view of how old kai's power works, but he'd definitely be able to use it more effectively. About Frieza never being pushed, ignoring Cooler, he still had a father who was his near equal in strength and was proven to be severely paranoid. He already had imaginary reasons to become even more secure in his strength. Plus being at least able to give Beerus a casual workout ala SS God Goku couldn't have hurt his chances of not being hakai'ed. I am sticking to canon though I am taking the liberty of adding in certain anime events (Gohan fighting 50% Frieza) and some movies (Bojack, reconfigured Fusion Reborn, and Wrath of the dragon) to add more to Gohan while not completely screwing up the natural flow happened in the manga (or anime depending on your version in canon). How you thought I was talking about DBM is beyond me since I am talking about the characters in general, not the actual storyline.
For the bold when did Gohan say that? Refresh my memory by providing me a link on when did Gohan actually said that. Anyways for the Bojack canon argument, it is still highly possible that Gohan will still neglect his training since the main one who pushed him to train (his father) will still not be around while his mother will constantly bombard him with work while frowning at his training regiments. Granted Gohan can still sneak off and train with Vegeta and Piccolo, but it depends on him taking the initiative to do so, which is something he doesn't do all that often because of his living environment (having a tiger mom will render a honest boy like Gohan virtually in prison at home indefinitely). But again, the scenario I had provided for Gohan to get stronger is completely hypothetical where any small number of changes that could have happened to keep Gohan motivated to train. I left it ambiguous since the change can be any number of reasoning, but know I am simply providing a route on how Gohan could get stronger while adding up to canon in addition with supplemental material. As for Gohan not transforming during his fight against Frieza, it can be seen a number of ways. Personally I see Gohan not being strong enough base-state wise to handle the super saiyan form, thus the transformation was not triggered. His mentality was in the right area (believed his father died, Piccolo nearly dead, etc), but he just wasn't strong enough. Frieza's prior injuries and Gohan's rage enabled Gohan to trounce Frieza like that in that anime filler. But without those two aspects in affect, Gohan would have been beaten much faster, especially considering his strength was no where close to full power. Again only a matter of opinion, but given enough time I believe that Gohan can learn any technique if he puts his mind to it. While it is true his fighting skills are nowhere close to his father (especially as an adult), but training underneath the right conditions should enable him to learn those moves. if not, he would definitely have a better time learning them as a kid since he was more into fighting back then until the Buu saga happens. As for SSJ2 Gohan being able to kill Majin Buu if he trained intensely for 7 years easily, I seriously doubt that man. Yes his strength will be greater than Goku and Majin Vegeta in the same state, but I doubt he will kill him as you are implying. Granted he will mess up Buu, but his regeneration will always triumph over Gohan's strongest move. Thus the likes of SSJ3 Goku is needed to end Buu once and for all. At least we agree that Gohan will be far more effective that his unlocked potential by that point will be quite the show to behold. While we can agree about Frieza for the most part, but Frieza has said in the Resurrection F movie that he was never pushed or tried anything hard in his entire life. He says this to Goku before their fight, and his statement does hold some water since he proclaims he has never trained and with just four months. .boom he explodes with the force of ten Gohan nukes. |
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Post by Symbiotic on Mar 19, 2017 7:41:18 GMT
I meant for your second comment, after you brought up Bojack. That's not a quote, more a dramatisation of his thought process. Gohan was competing in the tournament to begin with because he wanted to hone his fighting skills, and Chi Chi let him because obviously locking him in a small room with books 24/7 365 isn't healthy. After a brand new villain is only beaten thanks to the power unlocked against Cell, why would either of them change their stance? Gohan would now have a solid reasoning to maintain his strength and Chi Chi would've seen that Gohan wanting to take Goku's place as protector of Earth isn't a bad thing. Plus I don't think Chi Chi is nearly as draconian nor is Gohan as unassertive as they'd need to be for things to still go the way of canon.
Ditching DBM[, I agree that Gohan likely wasn't strong enough to transform then. My reasoning for his mind not being in it was that he planned on stalling Frieza long enough for the planet to blow up and kill them both. That's a plan hatched by someone who's accepted that they're not going to win, which isn't the attitude you need to go super saiyan in the first place.
It depends on if you believe on set limits on how strong one can get inside super saiyan levels i.e. a SS2 can never reach SS3 levels. Until I discovered DBM I had no reason to believe that so it's still kinda a foreign idea to me, to be honest. So I feel like if Gohan was serious and naturally trained himself up to a good percentage of his full potential (which a few weeks and one ritual were able to do compared to 7 years) then Fat Buu would have no chance.
I've gotta agree with Roketto that that's the dumbest thing I'd ever heard, since obviously he wasn't born knowing all his techniques. Or how to create three restriction forms. However my issue is with why he didn't decide to train given the reasons he had, rather than if he did train at all.
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Post by Xeno Black on Mar 20, 2017 0:41:19 GMT
I meant for your second comment, after you brought up Bojack. That's not a quote, more a dramatisation of his thought process. Gohan was competing in the tournament to begin with because he wanted to hone his fighting skills, and Chi Chi let him because obviously locking him in a small room with books 24/7 365 isn't healthy. After a brand new villain is only beaten thanks to the power unlocked against Cell, why would either of them change their stance? Gohan would now have a solid reasoning to maintain his strength and Chi Chi would've seen that Gohan wanting to take Goku's place as protector of Earth isn't a bad thing. Plus I don't think Chi Chi is nearly as draconian nor is Gohan as unassertive as they'd need to be for things to still go the way of canon. Ditching DBM[, I agree that Gohan likely wasn't strong enough to transform then. My reasoning for his mind not being in it was that he planned on stalling Frieza long enough for the planet to blow up and kill them both. That's a plan hatched by someone who's accepted that they're not going to win, which isn't the attitude you need to go super saiyan in the first place. It depends on if you believe on set limits on how strong one can get inside super saiyan levels i.e. a SS2 can never reach SS3 levels. Until I discovered DBM I had no reason to believe that so it's still kinda a foreign idea to me, to be honest. So I feel like if Gohan was serious and naturally trained himself up to a good percentage of his full potential (which a few weeks and one ritual were able to do compared to 7 years) then Fat Buu would have no chance. I've gotta agree with Roketto that that's the dumbest thing I'd ever heard, since obviously he wasn't born knowing all his techniques. Or how to create three restriction forms. However my issue is with why he didn't decide to train given the reasons he had, rather than if he did train at all. You bring up some good logic to your arguments. All of them is plausible. As for the Frieza training argument, perhaps what Frieza meant was that he never trained hard for everything because learning everything was simple for him (including the techniques and restriction forms). Now why he did not train to master his forms, learn new techniques, or to literally outclass his father by miles remains a total mystery. Perhaps his ego as the "strongest" along with no real challenges (besides Beerus) persuaded Frieza to not seek any higher power. Nonetheless the whole issue is dumb, and would rather have Frieza remaining at his current namek level and have a unique villain replacing him during the Resurrection F arc entirely. The four months of training is absurd no matter how you look at it. |
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Post by Symbiotic on Mar 20, 2017 10:23:43 GMT
Agreed. I'm glad they tried their best to retcon that BS out of the manga.
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Post by Son Pan on Mar 20, 2017 20:27:23 GMT
The human characters hands down. They were all originally able to keep up with Goku when they were kids, but then Freeza arc happened suddenly there is a genetic disadvantage that humans can't possibly surpass. They desperately needed power up like Piccolo got to compete with the Saiyans. All the training they do for the arc villains largely feel like a waste of time, since they either never fight them or get beaten fairly easy. Sure Krillin and Tien got some key moments, but I can't help but feel that had the zenkai power up had been managed to push the Saiyans far ahead that things would be very different.
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Post by supernekomajin on Apr 2, 2017 22:06:05 GMT
Goten. Goten was already 2nd Grade SSJ-tier when he was 7 years old with almost no training, compared to Gohan who was at most in the low millions with training at 7. If he trained and aged he and Trunks could be fighting with the big boys against god-level threats, but noooo, he's still 7 after several years and he hasn't gotten any stronger, nor does he have any character. Even in fusion, his personality is completely consumed by Trunks because he has none of his own.
The worst part is, while everyone is shouting about Piccolo, Gohan and the humans for not being in the limelight anymore, no one but me seems to care about the poor little boy who never got a turn at all.
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Post by Axalon on Apr 3, 2017 18:54:23 GMT
Honestly, every character that isn't a Saiyan has a massive case of nerfed potential. Not only do they have genetic advantages like zenkais and transformations, but they also have a way to tap into freaking GOD KI to boot. And even the ones who ARE Saiyans also start to suffer because they lack Main Character status and start lagging behind as well.
I agree that Kaioken could be a very nice multiplier for most of these characters. Piccolo especially if they aren't going to give him more Namekians to fuse with.
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