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Post by Xeno Black on Mar 30, 2017 22:35:24 GMT
Do you see these two forms as part of the "true" continuation to the original SSJ and SSJ2, or do you see them as enhancements (SSJ3 being a "ascended" version of SSJ2) or something completely different (SSJ4 is a different line of transformations just like SSJ God and LSSJ)?
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Post by Namikaze on Mar 30, 2017 23:15:11 GMT
I remember there being a theory once that speculated on SSJ4 being the "true" evolution of a Super Saiyan (SSJ1) with them becoming the physical embodiment of their true form in an Oozaru. It was such a neat concept that made me consider it a "true" continuation of the previous two forms which are leveled by the gradual anger & rage of an individual - while it [SSJ4] is rather a complete harmony of a Saiyan in their truest form.
SSJ3, while powerful, is nothing more than an "enhancement" USSJ with longer hair. It's not only impossible to learn or master, but it has more drawbacks that don't lend it to be practical in comparison to the previous two forms.
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Post by SSJ4 GOD Multi on Mar 30, 2017 23:41:51 GMT
I use to think SSJ3 was a badass transformation but over the years the disadvantages of super saiyan 3 caused me to see the form as a rather inadequate successor to ssj2. I like the design and understand why it has a disadvantage, the form being so powerful that a living body can't handle it for a long period of time. But I do see the form as a "enhanced" USSJ for SSJ2.
SSJ4 I think is the true final form of the saiyan race. It enhances the body with incredible power, its a mixture of the Oozaru form and super saiyan as well as bringing back the roots of the saiyan race. It has pretty much no draw backs, doesn't change the users feelings or personality with anger or rage, and has MAGICAL CLOTHES CHANGING ABILITIES! That's just as impressive as Piccolo's clothes beam!
What I wonder about SSJ4 is how powerful can the user be with the form until they hit a barrier for where their power can no longer increase. With SSJ3 I feel its pretty much the max power of the user, they might be able to increase a bit more like Goku has in DBM but not by too large of a margin.
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Post by Son Pan on Mar 31, 2017 7:07:30 GMT
I think they are both true continuations of the previous forms. Super Saiyan forms put a great strain on the body. The fact that Goku and Gohan trained to lessen those effects is evidence of that enough. Naturally each progressive form should put more of a strain on the body. SS3's weakness is just carrying on with that idea. SS4 had a similar problem as well. I remember Goku and Vegeta ran out of power as SS4 against Omega Shenron as well. I suppose SS4 is more of natural evolution of the Saiyan, since it compare Super Saiyan transformations with the Great Ape transformation.
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Post by christhesaiyan on Mar 31, 2017 19:44:23 GMT
I wouldn't call either of them successors. Even though SSJ3 is a result of training like SSJ2, it's too flawed to be considered a true successor to the SSJ2 form. Just like how the Maxed Ascended SSJ is far stronger than the original Super Saiyan but has a major setback in terms of speed, SSJ3 is hugely flawed in the energy it takes up, and so it really isn't all that superior to SSJ2. SSJ2 was considered a true successor to SSJ because it didn't have any major flaws that set it back from the original. It's better than the original in every way so it's truly superior.
Now as for SSJ4, it's not flawed, but it's unlock method makes it much more of an augmented form. It's more of an augmentation of the original SSJ because you don't have to be a SSJ2 to unlock it. You just have to go Great Ape as a SSJ and gain control over the form. It's more of a fused form so because it's power is partly from being a Great Ape it's not actually a successor.
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Post by Saudade on Apr 2, 2017 16:16:06 GMT
For me SSJ3 is a better form that is not yet perfected. Much like the gap between SSJ1 and SSJ2 with its imperfect forms. Even the looks of SSJ3 screams incomplete. Ascedend SSj1 is that bulky, slow form and SSj2 is sleek and powerful. SSJ3 suffers from the same problems ascended suffered, but it shows itself in a different manner, instead of being slow as fuck, it uses too much energy. I have the notion that, if Super followed the SSJ3 path instead of god we would see a form that doesn't waste soo much energy away, in fact we saw that training in Super, how to not make the KI leak, reducing the Energy wasted making it a form that is so cost efficient.
SSJ4 is not that Dragon Ball style that we came to love, all of toryiama transformations are simple, elegant, SSj4 is none of that, it looks cool, but I do not consider it a good sucessor.
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Post by Xeno Black on Apr 6, 2017 21:44:44 GMT
Originally I would have told you that both transformations were the absolute true successors to the first two forms. But in the last two / three years my views began to change since there is some problems with SSJ3 and SSJ4 that neither SSJ or SSJ2 contain. You see with adequate training one can almost completely master SSJ (still cannot use kaioken simultaneously when alive) or SSJ2, but with SSJ3 you just cannot master it (unless its fanfiction lol) since it just consumes too much energy. Unless you are either dead, fused (though the fusion time will go down significantly), or weak as fuck (thus you should presumably hold the fusion longer than someone who is OP powerful), then Super Saiyan 3 will always remain an imperfect transformation despite it being badass that offers lots of power. It is even worse if you are a non-fused child (evidently seen on Goku in GT when tailless), which makes this transformation only viable under the most ideal circumstances (or if you are permanently possessed by Baby or can become LSSJ). Thus the cons severely outweigh the potential pros, thus making me classify this transformation as a Ascended / Ultra version of Super Saiyan 2. Thus it is not a true transformation lamentably.
As for Super Saiyan 4, the way to achieve this transformation is completely different compared to the other forms. Literally all you need is a tail and the super saiyan form to achieve, thus making SSJ2 and SSJ3 unnecessary to have beforehand. In a way it is akin to SSJ God, LSSJ, or SSJR since it is a unique form in its own right. Thus it shouldn't even be called "Super Saiyan 4" because of these reasons. Nonetheless it has little of the flaws that SSJ3 has, with the user able to sustain that state for long periods of time until they reach their limit (though it becomes more noticeable when fusion has occurred). That and losing their tail (theory-wise, since Vegeta lost access upon losing his tail via artificial stimulation). Other than that, this form has great pros compared to the cons, thus making it a very effective transformation. Now whether it is possible to fully master it (or ascend it further into "Super Saiyan 5") makes this transformation line all the more pleasing in its potential. But again, I still do not consider it the true successor to the original line of transformations since its achievement is vastly different compared to the originals. Thus I rest my case.
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Post by Son Pan on Apr 6, 2017 23:08:48 GMT
Originally I would have told you that both transformations were the absolute true successors to the first two forms. But in the last two / three years my views began to change since there is some problems with SSJ3 and SSJ4 that neither SSJ or SSJ2 contain. You see with adequate training one can almost completely master SSJ (still cannot use kaioken simultaneously when alive) or SSJ2, but with SSJ3 you just cannot master it (unless its fanfiction lol) since it just consumes too much energy. Unless you are either dead, fused (though the fusion time will go down significantly), or weak as fuck (thus you should presumably hold the fusion longer than someone who is OP powerful), then Super Saiyan 3 will always remain an imperfect transformation despite it being badass that offers lots of power. It is even worse if you are a non-fused child (evidently seen on Goku in GT when tailless), which makes this transformation only viable under the most ideal circumstances (or if you are permanently possessed by Baby or can become LSSJ). Thus the cons severely outweigh the potential pros, thus making me classify this transformation as a Ascended / Ultra version of Super Saiyan 2. Thus it is not a true transformation lamentably. In fairness we don't know if SS3 can be mastered or not. Both GT and Super made newer transformations that replaced SS3 that became the flagships of their respective series and displaced the other forms (especially SS3). DBM chose to exaggerate SS3 weakness so that the stronger a person is the more ki it consumes (which isn't really hinted at anywhere else) to the point where the form became almost useless. SS3 just became another milestone in Saiyan transformations it became a form that can be skipped, much how Gotenks was never shown to use SS2 and instead was just seen using SS3. We'll never know if the strain and energy consumption can be lessened or overcome, since SS3 has been made obsolete.
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Post by Xeno Black on Apr 6, 2017 23:37:43 GMT
Originally I would have told you that both transformations were the absolute true successors to the first two forms. But in the last two / three years my views began to change since there is some problems with SSJ3 and SSJ4 that neither SSJ or SSJ2 contain. You see with adequate training one can almost completely master SSJ (still cannot use kaioken simultaneously when alive) or SSJ2, but with SSJ3 you just cannot master it (unless its fanfiction lol) since it just consumes too much energy. Unless you are either dead, fused (though the fusion time will go down significantly), or weak as fuck (thus you should presumably hold the fusion longer than someone who is OP powerful), then Super Saiyan 3 will always remain an imperfect transformation despite it being badass that offers lots of power. It is even worse if you are a non-fused child (evidently seen on Goku in GT when tailless), which makes this transformation only viable under the most ideal circumstances (or if you are permanently possessed by Baby or can become LSSJ). Thus the cons severely outweigh the potential pros, thus making me classify this transformation as a Ascended / Ultra version of Super Saiyan 2. Thus it is not a true transformation lamentably. In fairness we don't know if SS3 can be mastered or not. Both GT and Super made newer transformations that replaced SS3 that became the flagships of their respective series and displaced the other forms (especially SS3). DBM chose to exaggerate SS3 weakness so that the stronger a person is the more ki it consumes (which isn't really hinted at anywhere else) to the point where the form became almost useless. SS3 just became another milestone in Saiyan transformations it became a form that can be skipped, much how Gotenks was never shown to use SS2 and instead was just seen using SS3. We'll never know if the strain and energy consumption can be lessened or overcome, since SS3 has been made obsolete. For the bold, I fear we will never know because other forms have replaced it regarding the series (SSJ4 or SSJ Blue). Super Saiyan 3 is my favorite transformation of all time, and instantly became in love of it when I saw Goku using it against Fat Buu. But the drawbacks makes it impracticable in long fights, with newer transformations that offer more power and less drawbacks pushing it further and further to the backburner as the series goes on. While it is true that DBM has exaggerated the weakness of SSJ3, but the stamina flaws are prevalent in the form regardless (SSJ3 Goku against SSJ Baby Vegeta, SSJ3 Goku against Kid Buu, etc). Plus in the super manga, a highly trained SSJ2 can become equivalent if not surpass a SSJ3 user (as shown when Future Trunks sparred against Goku), which is insane since a predecessor form actually succeeded the successive transformation in might. How does that happen? But again at this point we will never know if SSJ3 can be mastered or not. Out of all of the doujionshi, canon (Z, GT, or Super), and novels, only one story ever made the effort to master it completely with no ill effects. Every other comic illustrator, writer, and apparently the canon staff so far never even bothered in trying to master it to insane levels, or just forget about it in favor of stronger forms. Based on the available info I have gathered (canon or fanfiction), a strong theme always presents itself that SSJ3 is impossible to truly master, unless a method can be employed similar to DBM'S Ultra Super Saiyan change or DBS switch between SSJ God and Blue. That is the only way which can theoretically be used by switching between SSJ2 and SSJ3 in terms of mastering. But other than that, I doubt the form itself can be perfected, which again is akin to the Ultra Super Saiyan form itself.
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Post by Azoth on Apr 7, 2017 22:49:38 GMT
I feel like any SSJ form can be mastered, it just takes more out of you to do so. SSJ was the most efficient in terms of power vs. cost. It either never occurred to the characters to master SSJ2 or 3, or it was impractical to do so. I can imagine exhausting yourself with simple tasks trying to master SSJ3.
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Post by Son Pan on Apr 8, 2017 3:00:16 GMT
For the bold, I fear we will never know because other forms have replaced it regarding the series (SSJ4 or SSJ Blue). Super Saiyan 3 is my favorite transformation of all time, and instantly became in love of it when I saw Goku using it against Fat Buu. But the drawbacks makes it impracticable in long fights, with newer transformations that offer more power and less drawbacks pushing it further and further to the backburner as the series goes on. While it is true that DBM has exaggerated the weakness of SSJ3, but the stamina flaws are prevalent in the form regardless (SSJ3 Goku against SSJ Baby Vegeta, SSJ3 Goku against Kid Buu, etc). Plus in the super manga, a highly trained SSJ2 can become equivalent if not surpass a SSJ3 user (as shown when Future Trunks sparred against Goku), which is insane since a predecessor form actually succeeded the successive transformation in might. How does that happen? But again at this point we will never know if SSJ3 can be mastered or not. Out of all of the doujionshi, canon (Z, GT, or Super), and novels, only one story ever made the effort to master it completely with no ill effects. Every other comic illustrator, writer, and apparently the canon staff so far never even bothered in trying to master it to insane levels, or just forget about it in favor of stronger forms. Based on the available info I have gathered (canon or fanfiction), a strong theme always presents itself that SSJ3 is impossible to truly master, unless a method can be employed similar to DBM'S Ultra Super Saiyan change or DBS switch between SSJ God and Blue. That is the only way which can theoretically be used by switching between SSJ2 and SSJ3 in terms of mastering. But other than that, I doubt the form itself can be perfected, which again is akin to the Ultra Super Saiyan form itself. I can see your point, but at the same time I think there a big difference between not seeing it mastered and assuming it can't ever be mastered just based on its appearances. The thing that has me against it not being a true SS form is it suggests that SS3 isn't the natural successor because of its initial flaws, but even in the manga Goku mentions how Super Saiyan forms in general put a great strain on the body and transformations can cost a lot of energy. While Ascended and Ultra maximized strength more at the cost of speed was a reason for Goku to decide to just stick to Super Saiyan he also mentions the basic form has flaws too, the strain it puts on the body and how much ki it consumes when they transform. He suggests to Gohan that they condition their bodies to lessen the strain, which in turn would consume less ki. He suggests a training plan that has them start things off slow and gradually build up to it until they try to stay transformed all day. All of that was just for the basic SS form. Sure we never saw it crap out in battle like SS3, but Goku and Gohan put a lot of work into conditioning their bodies to handle SS1 to the point that they can not only stay in the form for hours on end, but relax their bodies enough that they can lower their energy or set their bodies on a rest state without losing the form. The higher forms are likely to increase the strain on the body and require even more work to handle them. I feel like any SSJ form can be mastered, it just takes more out of you to do so. SSJ was the most efficient in terms of power vs. cost. It either never occurred to the characters to master SSJ2 or 3, or it was impractical to do so. I can imagine exhausting yourself with simple tasks trying to master SSJ3. I feel that way too. SS3 has a problem with energy consumption and the strain it puts on the body, but it seems natural considering how much power each transformation gives to the user. With the new power the greater the strain is being put on the body to maintain it. Unlocking training transforming is induing the user with a significant power increase that the body is then forced to adapt to. Whereas with training, while the process is slower it gradually allow for the body to build up the strength to handle the power increase. Hell, maybe that is why drinking the Holy Water was so dangerous, the sudden power spike could put too much strain on the body at once. If that is the case SS2 and SS3 on top of SS1 probably is a lot to ask the body to handle and expect to stay transformed for long periods of time without building up to it first. SS3 ki drainage may just be the natural result of using so many transformations to power up. I remember when Vegeta talked about Freeza's transformation he speculated he didn't do often to conserve energy, as in transforming puts a strain on the body that could have negative effects. Freeza corrects him by saying he transforms to limit his power and lessen the strain. Freeza is the only one we hear that use transformations to create natural limitations to better less the strain his power puts on him. Every other transformation works to augment the power and as we've seen with Super Saiyans that augmentation is often an enormous one. This could explain why Old Kai modified Gohan the way he did. Translations may use different language or wording, but it likely all spells out how Super Saiyan forms tax the body too much. He mentions he made it so Gohan didn't need to bother with it. When Gohan tries to transform he unlocks his power in his base form. His body was magically augmented to not only use the power, but to handle it better. Gohan is made more efficient whereas Goku, Vegeta, and Gotenks still needed SS transformations which are taxing. It might take a long while for someone like Goku to build up his stamina and lessen the strain of SS3 (perhaps even years), but I think it makes sense that conditioning is needed to prepare the body to handle the transformation and lessen the strain and energy consumption to more manageable levels. It could explain why Goku never decried SS3 as useless or impractical transformation like he did Ultra Super Saiyan. It requires more work to bring outs full potential.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Apr 24, 2017 8:11:14 GMT
I see SS3 as the 'Ultimate' version of Super Saiyan. Where the saiyan in question is unlimited in potential as long as they keep training. I see SS1 and SS2 as forms that can get 'maxed out' in terms of power and potential.
I think the most important moment to remember is when Goku fought Kid Buu he told Vegeta to keep Buu occupied as he'd only need a minute to gather the required power to defeat him for good. Now we know that a DBZ minute is a very variable length of time but basically Goku just keeps powering up to do some kind of ultimate attack, he's just stopped by the strain on his body, implying he had not been able to strengthen himself enough that he could handle all that extra power he was channelling in SS3 form.
DBM overly focuses on this flaw, making the absurd rule that the more powerful you are, the less time you can stay transformed. Personally i think that SS3 is so overpowered that they needed to make that flaw otherwise people who achieved it would be nearly invincible because of the sheer amount of energy they could channel.
As for SS4 i think it was a good concept that was executed poorly. If they could add it into super i think that would be the Ultimate transformation: By combining the aspects of a saiyans Heritage (Oozaru and Super Saiyan) with God Ki. Maybe i'm just wishing for an idea of mine to be made reality but God Damn would that be cool
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Post by fooshin on Apr 24, 2017 22:30:29 GMT
Just to add to pan's point about Saligir's take on ss3. It makes me wonder if it's saligir's opinion that ssj3 is just augmented ssj2 and that he might actually have vegeta's secret be the "real" ssj3. Perhaps something that looks more like the continuation of 1 and 2 and less freaky like the 3 we know. Although I do believe that saligir respects the "mystic gohan limit" so I would be a bit surprised if he surpassed that.
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Post by Solus on Apr 28, 2017 22:39:22 GMT
Just to add to pan's point about Saligir's take on ss3. It makes me wonder if it's saligir's opinion that ssj3 is just augmented ssj2 and that he might actually have vegeta's secret be the "real" ssj3. Perhaps something that looks more like the continuation of 1 and 2 and less freaky like the 3 we know. Although I do believe that saligir respects the "mystic gohan limit" so I would be a bit surprised if he surpassed that. While I do like that idea, I wonder what impact it would have on the story. If Goku and Vegeta can't become stronger than Mystic Gohan, what could they possibly accomplish in the tournament? We do know now, that Cell is at Mystic Gohan's Level. That makes Vegeta inferior to him. But even if he would win against Cell and fight Goku ... How would the winner of those two fare against the finalist of the other side of the brackets? Given it isn't XXI, then anyone from that side is way stronger than Mystic Gohan. And if Buu, who is by far the smartest and strongest contestant, doesn't figure out a way to defeat XXI, I can't imagine Goku or Vegeta doing so. That beeing said, Salagir's Plan with them is either to have their moment to shine and then step back for the big boys or to interrupt the tournament for something else so that they don't lose their face.
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Post by Ashanark on Apr 29, 2017 0:32:38 GMT
Solus, I think you double-posted by mistake so I got rid of it. > Topic Personally, I've never liked SS3. Design-wise, the long hair's kinda cool (though it makes all SS3s pretty uniform) but not the no-eyebrows thing. Story-wise, it cheapens SS2, takes all the tension out of the Goku/Majin Vegeta fight, and never actually accomplished anything. Seriously--SS3 has never won a fight. I'd prefer it be taken out of DBZ completely and the Buu saga's powerlevels scaled down to match. Salagir bets Toriyama made SS3 to parody Super Saiyan forms in general and I think he's got a point. As for SS4, I thought that the concept was fantastic and that the design was good--just not as a Super Saiyan form. To me, if it isn't golden, it ain't Super Saiyan, so maybe if SS4 had golden hair I'd like it more. I also was a bit miffed how it make SS3 totally irrelevant. The best part of SS3 was that it had a weakness; you could only use it for a little while before it wore you down. SS4 had no flaws and felt overpowered. If it were up to me, I'd present SS3 as a sort of ultra-SS2; it's stronger than a regular SS2, but it's not a "true" form, because it looks weird and has too many flaws. Just like how Trunks going Ultra made him stronger but slowed him down. Like Saudade said, SS3 seems incomplete. I personally would have the "true" SS3 be unachievable unless you had a tail, but that's pure fanfic. fooshin Y'know, that's a good idea. Maybe Vegeta's hidden power will be the "real" SS3. I like that.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Apr 29, 2017 2:17:50 GMT
Solus, I think you double-posted by mistake so I got rid of it. > Topic Personally, I've never liked SS3. Design-wise, the long hair's kinda cool (though it makes all SS3s pretty uniform) but not the no-eyebrows thing. Story-wise, it cheapens SS2, takes all the tension out of the Goku/Majin Vegeta fight, and never actually accomplished anything. Seriously--SS3 has never won a fight. I'd prefer it be taken out of DBZ completely and the Buu saga's powerlevels scaled down to match. Salagir bets Toriyama made SS3 to parody Super Saiyan forms in general and I think he's got a point. As for SS4, I thought that the concept was fantastic and that the design was good--just not as a Super Saiyan form. To me, if it isn't golden, it ain't Super Saiyan, so maybe if SS4 had golden hair I'd like it more. I also was a bit miffed how it make SS3 totally irrelevant. The best part of SS3 was that it had a weakness; you could only use it for a little while before it wore you down. SS4 had no flaws and felt overpowered. If it were up to me, I'd present SS3 as a sort of ultra-SS2; it's stronger than a regular SS2, but it's not a "true" form, because it looks weird and has too many flaws. Just like how Trunks going Ultra made him stronger but slowed him down. Like Saudade said, SS3 seems incomplete. I personally would have the "true" SS3 be unachievable unless you had a tail, but that's pure fanfic. fooshin Y'know, that's a good idea. Maybe Vegeta's hidden power will be the "real" SS3. I like that. I don't know, i always liked the no eyebrows thing SS3 had going on. It made it looks so.....Alien. More then that it made it look like a true transformation, as opposed to SS2 where the only real difference in the Buu saga was lightning in their aura and slightly spiker hair. Gohan in the cell saga made it look epic which made it even more disappointing to me. When Goku says that: "This is to go even....further.....Beyond" gave me shivers the first time i saw it. The fact that it was so powerful that it shortened his time on Earth, and was felt all the way to otherworld made it seem so impossibly strong. To me personally i would make SS3 the Ultimate transformation, yet because of its strain it would need so much training and adaptation to use it to it's full potential- Not just Gravity/strength training, but mediation and much better Ki control so anyone using it didn't over-strain themselves. Side note- I think this would of been a much better time to introduce the whole heart virus thing. Where overdoing your body because of the strain of this new form could wear your heart out if you weren't already dead.
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Post by fooshin on Apr 29, 2017 3:39:20 GMT
If Goku and Vegeta can't become stronger than Mystic Gohan, what could they possibly accomplish in the tournament? 4th or 5th round I guess. I'm not exactly sure they are there to win the tourney. Even if they were, I think it was bardock that said that if vegetto could be taken out in the second round then anything is possible (something like that). I'm sure they will have a major role to play at some point but it probably has more to do with the multiversal threat and not the tournament.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Apr 29, 2017 5:35:36 GMT
If Goku and Vegeta can't become stronger than Mystic Gohan, what could they possibly accomplish in the tournament? 4th or 5th round I guess. I'm not exactly sure they are there to win the tourney. Even if they were, I think it was bardock that said that if vegetto could be taken out in the second round then anything is possible (something like that). I'm sure they will have a major role to play at some point but it probably has more to do with the multiversal threat and not the tournament. Based of the brackets i predict they'll have to meet in the 5th round against each other, give the audience the fan-service we all want (The ultimate re-match of Goku and Vegeta), i'd then say that Goku will win and be in the grand final match but by then all kinds of shit that's currently being alluded to will drop. Of course this is all operating under the assumption that they can't surpass Mystic. I find it unlikely at best that after 20 years of constant training given their own huge potential that they can't at least match Gohan considering he hasn't trained at all in that time. I reckon that if Cell can match/surpass it, then surely both Goku and Vegeta can as well. They even state on page 37 that they weren't really worried (about most of the fighters already there) because 'Most of them are really weaker than us anyway' And at that point every universe except for the heliotes and Broly was already there.... It just annoys me that Mystic is so hard to define- It's all of Gohans potential unlocked yet doesn't really give us a base figure to go with to compare it to. I mean at that point in the Buu saga he hadn't even unlocked SS3 so how can it be all his potential? He even states in the anime that we'd like Goku to teach him how to do it........ Ok im starting to rant so i'll stop now haha.
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Post by fooshin on Apr 29, 2017 15:35:15 GMT
I reckon that if Cell can match/surpass it, then surely both Goku and Vegeta can as well. That's the thing though about cell is he isn't just a sayian and is hardly limited to one's potential. He's more like a fusion and is therefore more on that scale. I'm not really bothered by the idea that he can far and away surpass goku and co. When they fought him he was practically in his infancy much like in DBM how much weaker gast was against cold compared to how we see him 30 years later.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2017 20:55:28 GMT
I think Toriyama originally intended for SSJ3 to be a hybrid SSJ/Oozaru because one of his original sketches of SSJ3 Goku had a tail: It could also explain those weird ape/neanderthal-looking eyebrows. I liked the design of SSJ3 and SSJ4 (if it was blonde!) but would've preferred if SSJ2 was the final transformation. During the Buu saga was when Goku numbered the SSJ forms which opened the door to even more unnecessary numbered transformations. If there wasn't a SSJ3, SSJ2 would've remained "Ascended SSJ" or "True Ascended SSJ" so fans don't get mixed up with the form Vegeta used against Semi-Perfect Cell. Like Ashanark said, SSJ3 didn't really accomplish anything and all it did inflate the power levels. Fat Buu was stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta then Goku reveals SSJ3 and starts beating up Buu then everyone after that needed to be stronger. At least if SSJ2 was the final transformation, Gotenks would just be a strong fusion SSJ2 and Ultimate Gohan would his full SSJ2 potential or maybe they wouldn't even need it. I think only purpose that SSJ3 served was showing Vegeta that Goku was way stronger than him so he could give his "You are #1" speech. I believe that could've also been accomplished with SSJ2. The normal SSJ2 could've been treated as a difficult to control, primal rage form like when Gohan first achieved it. Vegeta would eventually have more control over it by the Buu saga but he would still be weaker than Goku who fully mastered the form and overcome it's rage. By the end that could cause Vegeta to wonder how Goku was able to overcome it and not give in which leads to his speech. It's basically the same thing that happened in canon but replace SSJ3 with a "FP"SSJ2 that only Goku acquires. I would have SSJ2 Gotenks weaker than Goku and take away Gohan's ultimate form. It would make Vegeta saying Goku was #1 more meaningful if he actually was the strongest and not "you are #1...not including the half-Saiyans".
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