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Post by VoidSlayer on May 3, 2017 4:41:45 GMT
Im not sure if this has been covered in the General episode thread but considering the different comparisons made between these different transformations i thought i'd start my very first Forum discussion topic! (Cue Monty Pythons- "And there was much rejoicing")
So i was thinking that while SSBlue is considered the ascended form of the original SSGod, i greatly doubt whether or not it's actually more powerful.
Consider that Goku was able to match Beerus Blow for blow after the SSGod ritual, and while we all now know that he was holding back i can't see Vegeta or Goku in their Blue form being able to match Beerus to that degree. Also during the universe 6 arc Goku states that while combining the Kaio-Ken multipliers to the Blue form that he was saving that technique 'to use against Beerus'. Now to me that says that SSBlue is considerably weaker than SSGod.
On top of that Vegeta was able to constantly improve his strength in the Blue form, especially during the Zamasu arc yet never tries to challenge Beerus for his title. Considering that's the original reason why Whis decided to train him it speaks volumes to me that even considering all the events that have happened up until now in Super, Vegeta has shown no interest.
During the ROF arc despite ascending to this new form and possibly being weaker than Friezas 'Gold' form. Frieza looked shit scared every time Beerus even looked in his direction. Hardly a big endorsement in this 'Beyond a God' forms power.
Basically despite what has been speculated in all of DBS so far, i am firmly of the belief that SSGod is still Gokus most powerful form to date, but i'd definitely welcome everyone here's input and reasoning behind what you think is the more powerful form.
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Post by VoidSlayer on May 3, 2017 6:44:20 GMT
Im talking more how it's represented in the Anime. So far there's been no real mention of the Stamina cost of SSBlue there and I'm 100% sure Vegeta's never used SSGod in the Anime. I'd also draw your attention to the fact that the Anime is now ahead of the Manga in terms of story progression so there'd have to be some inconsistencies surely? I was always under the impression that the higher power and the difficulty in gaining the God form (using the ritual everytime would be incredibly difficult to do, and it only has a 1/2 hour limit) is the reason it hasn't been used in the anime aside from the first DBS arc.
Actually as a side note- How involved is Toriyama involved in both the Manga and the Anime?
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Post by R I P I R I U S on May 3, 2017 8:43:22 GMT
Im talking more how it's represented in the Anime. So far there's been no real mention of the Stamina cost of SSBlue there and I'm 100% sure Vegeta's never used SSGod in the Anime. I'd also draw your attention to the fact that the Anime is now ahead of the Manga in terms of story progression so there'd have to be some inconsistencies surely? I was always under the impression that the higher power and the difficulty in gaining the God form (using the ritual everytime would be incredibly difficult to do, and it only has a 1/2 hour limit) is the reason it hasn't been used in the anime aside from the first DBS arc. Actually as a side note- How involved is Toriyama involved in both the Manga and the Anime? Toriyama is involved more in the Manga compared to the Anime as he goes through every chapter before it gets published. Toyotaro has his creative liberty but Toriyama looks at his work. For the anime, he just sends them the guidelines or whatnot. |
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Post by VoidSlayer on May 3, 2017 9:33:30 GMT
So basically both are the brainchild of Toriyama, yet both the anime and manga has a different 'take' on his story? Would that be accurate?
In that case is it fair to say that in the Manga SSB is more powerful than SSGod, yet in the anime that's still open to interpretation. But based on feats i'd venture the opinion that the original God form is considerably more powerful
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Post by Solus on May 3, 2017 12:54:14 GMT
The manga has a clear outline about that. So there is nothing to discuss here.
But I once had the theory, that Ssjb is just a normal Ssj influenced by the God Ki received from the ritual - which would make SsjG the highest form and Ssjb only a better Ssj. But as Goku still uses his normal Ssj in the anime, that theory is proven wrong. So you should accept, too, that Ssjb > Ssjg.
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Post by VoidSlayer on May 4, 2017 6:03:00 GMT
The manga has a clear outline about that. So there is nothing to discuss here. But I once had the theory, that Ssjb is just a normal Ssj influenced by the God Ki received from the ritual - which would make SsjG the highest form and Ssjb only a better Ssj. But as Goku still uses his normal Ssj in the anime, that theory is proven wrong. So you should accept, too, that Ssjb > Ssjg. See thats funny, because i thought almost exactly the same thing in regards to SSBlue. It was Super Saiyan combined with God Ki, while SsGod ws 100% pure God Ki which is what made it so powerful. I'll accept that in the Manga that SSBlue is superior, but unless explicitly stated in the anime, and especially the English version i'm leaving it open. Especially since feat-wise SSGod has so much better ones then Blue (As of now) |
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Post by Son Pan on May 4, 2017 6:15:42 GMT
The manga has a clear outline about that. So there is nothing to discuss here. But I once had the theory, that Ssjb is just a normal Ssj influenced by the God Ki received from the ritual - which would make SsjG the highest form and Ssjb only a better Ssj. But as Goku still uses his normal Ssj in the anime, that theory is proven wrong. So you should accept, too, that Ssjb > Ssjg. See thats funny, because i thought almost exactly the same thing in regards to SSBlue. It was Super Saiyan combined with God Ki, while SsGod ws 100% pure God Ki which is what made it so powerful. I'll accept that in the Manga that SSBlue is superior, but unless explicitly stated in the anime, and especially the English version i'm leaving it open. Especially since feat-wise SSGod has so much better ones then Blue (As of now) I prefer SSB being weaker than SSG if only because it makes the whole Beerus still being stronger than Goku and Vegeta make more sense. Beerus doesn't train, while Goku and Vegeta train like crazy and aren't getting anywhere. It does make more sense as to why Goku and Beerus fight caused greater destruction and chaos then SSB seems to have done. |
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Post by VoidSlayer on May 4, 2017 9:01:20 GMT
See thats funny, because i thought almost exactly the same thing in regards to SSBlue. It was Super Saiyan combined with God Ki, while SsGod ws 100% pure God Ki which is what made it so powerful. I'll accept that in the Manga that SSBlue is superior, but unless explicitly stated in the anime, and especially the English version i'm leaving it open. Especially since feat-wise SSGod has so much better ones then Blue (As of now) I prefer SSB being weaker than SSG if only because it makes the whole Beerus still being stronger than Goku and Vegeta make more sense. Beerus doesn't train, while Goku and Vegeta train like crazy and aren't getting anywhere. It does make more sense as to why Goku and Beerus fight caused greater destruction and chaos then SSB seems to have done. Thats why i reckon that so far the anime has it right in regards to this topic. Being completely powered by God Ki (SSGod) should be far beyond any combination form (SSBlue). I mean with the Ki control of Blue i can see why epic collisions cause so much less environmental destruction, but what did it for me was Vegeta getting knocked out with one 'hard' knee strike from Hit during the universe 6 saga. If this form supposedly surpasses the original God form then how come it gets beaten so easily? Using that logic that'd make Hit stronger then Beerus or Champa but we know thats not the case |
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Post by Son Pan on May 15, 2017 20:52:57 GMT
The god forms weren't well thought out. I'm fairly sure had more thought been put into it that SSG would be the advance form, while SSB would be the starter form. Vegeta somehow taps into it despite not being SSG, reaches the highest form, while skipping the others. SSB really goes back to what we saw at the end of Battle of Gods. Goku managed to fuse part of the god ki he received in SSG into his Super Saiyan form for a power up. Had SSB been planned out when that movie happened we could have seen Goku go blue briefly before crapping out.
As mentioned before it excuses why future fights with god level opponents don't shake the universe apart and makes more sense why Beerus still has such a lead on Goku and Vegeta and explain why SSB Vegetto is above Beerus in the anime as well. Beerus remains the goal, but instead of having our heroes surpass the level Goku reached with the god ritual and bad plotting keeps them weaker you have them start off weaker and have to build up to that level.
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Post by VoidSlayer on May 20, 2017 6:05:22 GMT
I agree, they seem so inconsistent compared to your standard Super Saiyan transformations. I mean SSBlue was promoted in the ROF arc as 'The battle Beyond Gods' Yet there's not a single shred of evidence to back that up. Using that logic it would imply that SSBlue and Golden Frieza would of surpassed Beerus yet we know that's just bullshit, pure and simple.
I'm also sure Whis said something along the lines of that when Goku and Vegeta acquired the Blue form they were as far below Beerus as a Tree Stump was to Beerus's castle. That alone seems to prove that Blue is a downgrade in terms of power, it's just alot more reliable then the God form since it only lasts the 30 minutes and needs the ritual to be activated.
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Post by Son Pan on May 20, 2017 22:11:56 GMT
I agree, they seem so inconsistent compared to your standard Super Saiyan transformations. I mean SSBlue was promoted in the ROF arc as 'The battle Beyond Gods' Yet there's not a single shred of evidence to back that up. Using that logic it would imply that SSBlue and Golden Frieza would of surpassed Beerus yet we know that's just bullshit, pure and simple. I'm also sure Whis said something along the lines of that when Goku and Vegeta acquired the Blue form they were as far below Beerus as a Tree Stump was to Beerus's castle. That alone seems to prove that Blue is a downgrade in terms of power, it's just alot more reliable then the God form since it only lasts the 30 minutes and needs the ritual to be activated. If it done right you could say the blue hue is color discoloration as a side effect from imperfect god ki control. That way when they truly master it they lose the blue color altogether and retain their original gold color of the Super Saiyan form. That way it goes back to how none of the other god ki users seem to have this blue aura like Goku and Vegeta. Imperfect God Ki control= Super Saiyan Blue Unstable God Ki control = Super Saiyan God/Red Perfect God Ki control = Original Coloring returns. |
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Post by VoidSlayer on May 20, 2017 23:53:53 GMT
I agree, they seem so inconsistent compared to your standard Super Saiyan transformations. I mean SSBlue was promoted in the ROF arc as 'The battle Beyond Gods' Yet there's not a single shred of evidence to back that up. Using that logic it would imply that SSBlue and Golden Frieza would of surpassed Beerus yet we know that's just bullshit, pure and simple. I'm also sure Whis said something along the lines of that when Goku and Vegeta acquired the Blue form they were as far below Beerus as a Tree Stump was to Beerus's castle. That alone seems to prove that Blue is a downgrade in terms of power, it's just alot more reliable then the God form since it only lasts the 30 minutes and needs the ritual to be activated. If it done right you could say the blue hue is color discoloration as a side effect from imperfect god ki control. That way when they truly master it they lose the blue color altogether and retain their original gold color of the Super Saiyan form. That way it goes back to how none of the other god ki users seem to have this blue aura like Goku and Vegeta. Imperfect God Ki control= Super Saiyan Blue Unstable God Ki control = Super Saiyan God/Red Perfect God Ki control = Original Coloring returns. Interesting theory, that way they could bring back super saiyan 1, 2 and 3 and they'd be up at 'God' tier because of their perfected God ki they could now channel. I think i can speak for alot of us when i say that i'm getting a bit sick of all the new transformations. The only problem with your theory is that SSBlue is already supposed to have 'perfect' Ki control, hence why Goku was able to use Kaio-ken in conjunction with it to multiply his power. For this new tournament arc i'd like to see them progress more and either 'master' the Blue transformation or maybe ascend beyond it somehow. |
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Post by R I P I R I U S on May 23, 2017 12:06:34 GMT
Most likely the mastered state would just be similar to Beerus. No colored aura and no transformation/augmentation needed. Just like how Gohan has access to all the power with no risk of stamina loss or turn into SS
Its just like when Goku fought Beerus right after losing the God form.
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Post by Son Pan on May 23, 2017 21:52:56 GMT
If it done right you could say the blue hue is color discoloration as a side effect from imperfect god ki control. That way when they truly master it they lose the blue color altogether and retain their original gold color of the Super Saiyan form. That way it goes back to how none of the other god ki users seem to have this blue aura like Goku and Vegeta. Imperfect God Ki control= Super Saiyan Blue Unstable God Ki control = Super Saiyan God/Red Perfect God Ki control = Original Coloring returns. Interesting theory, that way they could bring back super saiyan 1, 2 and 3 and they'd be up at 'God' tier because of their perfected God ki they could now channel. I think i can speak for alot of us when i say that i'm getting a bit sick of all the new transformations. The only problem with your theory is that SSBlue is already supposed to have 'perfect' Ki control, hence why Goku was able to use Kaio-ken in conjunction with it to multiply his power. For this new tournament arc i'd like to see them progress more and either 'master' the Blue transformation or maybe ascend beyond it somehow. It is not so much a theory, but what I would have liked to have seen done in Super. If it was done that way it would give us much needed structure to a fluctuating power scale. It would downgrade SSB/SSGSS from a new transformation, but it would make god ki feel less like a power up and more like a new ability/technique that the characters would have to work to master. In my mind SSB wouldn't be perfected new form that Goku and Vegeta mastered instantly, but rather the result of them being novices in controlling god ki. When they eventually master it they lose the blue coloring altogether and regain their original appearance. It transitions us away from transformation era and bring it back to more skill level again. It might eliminate the Kaioken and SSGSS combo or at least make it more of a desperation move, but that might be for the better. If the characters keep getting more and more power without a lot of limits it forces the story to have to constantly introduce stronger and stronger enemies. Goku and Vegeta would start off much weaker than they are in the anime and manga it would probably make for a more rewarding experience to have them need to work up to the levels they are on now. Most likely the mastered state would just be similar to Beerus. No colored aura and no transformation/augmentation needed. Just like how Gohan has access to all the power with no risk of stamina loss or turn into SS Its just like when Goku fought Beerus right after losing the God form. I don't know. SSB/SSGSS seems here to stay. Has the anime alluded to Blue not being complete? To my knowledge that was only the manga to really run with that idea and even then the Blue coloring seems to be consistent with mastering the form. I would prefer if they lost the coloring and regained their original coloring myself though. That way it feels less like only Saiyan exclusive power up and feel like an ability anyone can learn and master. |
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