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Post by Solus on May 12, 2017 8:32:52 GMT
People often tend to say that the ridiculous power ups in super would make Goku and Vegeta now stronger then Vegetto in the Buu saga. But according to Goku the power of a fusion multiplicates the powers of the fusionists instead of just adding them to each other. Assuming the power levels in the Buu saga were in billions (at least 10^9 or ^10), Vegetto would be at 10^20. The multiplier for Ssj3 was what? 500? How much above that should Ssjb be to close the gap from 500 to 10^10? So my conclusion is that No mortal beeing can ever surpass Vegetto due to the mechanics of the fusion itself.
What are your thoughts on that matter?
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Post by Kirasha on May 12, 2017 10:58:15 GMT
Battle of Gods flat out states that Super Vegito would be no match for Beerus, as to which SSJ God and SSJ Blue are currently known to hold their own against Beerus. This is all derived from the quote Goku has after being curbstomped by Beerus, first considering if fusion would work, but then commenting that, no, not even fusing would work against Beerus. The only known fusion strength that Goku knows and has experienced, would be Vegito and Super Vegito, so there's really no second guessing there.
Also, as of the recent chapter of the Super Manga has shown (chapter 23), Shin directly states that SSJB Vegito may well be stronger than Beerus, which is another indication that Super Vegito from the Buu Saga, would not have been any match for Beerus, which further indicates that SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta are stronger than SSJ Vegito.
And the multiplier for SSJ3 is 400x base, and while Goku never directly said that fusion would multiply (least, not as far as I can recall), the Super Exciting Guide did mention that the Potara fusion was X's powerlevel times Y's powerlevel, for Vegito these would be Goku and Vegeta's base power levels as that was how they were before fusing. Though, it is safe to say that this multiplier has since been retconned, like several other things about Potara fusion.
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Post by Solus on May 12, 2017 22:24:09 GMT
All of what you posted seems to be either miscalculation or misunderstanding - not by you but by Toei. I already did the math above. So there is nothing to argue about (if math could be applied to Dragonball, that is - which clearly can't, obviously). But Goku's silly statement aside (which I didn't even check), no SSJB ever beat Beerus. So if Goku really claims that Vegetto couldn't beat Beerus, that doesn't mean Goku SSJB can. So there is no proof that SSJB > SSJ Vegetto. Of course, I know, that Toei did retcon a lot. But from a DBZ point of view and explanations given there my assumption should be right. And that's also what Salagir did, isn't it?
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Post by Kirasha on May 12, 2017 23:13:02 GMT
Well it's not so much that SSJ Blue Goku can beat Beerus, but more of the fact that he stands a higher chance of matching up against Beerus, something that none of the other SSJ forms have been able too. Not SSJ3 Goku, nor SSJ2 Vegeta, who had surpassed SSJ3 Goku in terms of power.
While it is true that SSJ Blue Goku did not defeat Beerus, he does stand a higher chance to match up against Beerus, this was already proven when Beerus was using about 70% of his power against SSJ God Goku, and we know SSJ Blue Goku is stronger than SSJ God Goku. While Beerus his strength has been....iffy in Super, it's still a point that SSJ God and SSJ Blue are a match, and even a challenge for Beerus.
And I wouldn't discount what Goku says about Fusion, he knows Vegito's strength, he knows how great it is when Vegito went SSJ, if he says that Fusion would not be enough to even stand a change against Beerus, then there is no reason to not believe that. Goku is the one, after all, who tends to keep this chart in his head of people's strengths and abilities, it be unlikely that he wouldn't accurately guess Super Vegito's strength against that of Beerus.
The series never gave us an accurate statement on how fusion multiplies power levels, only that they become so much more stronger. And though the guide did mention X's power level times Y's power level....in all honesty, this seems to be just a quickly made up thing. Considering that, if this had really been the case, then Vegito would never even needed to have gone Super Saiyan, his base form would have been more than enough. Personally I never placed much faith in the whole "X times Y" thing for Potara Fusion, but that is personal bias. Currently, all the information given from Super, would indicated that SSJ Blue > Super Vegito, purely on the fact alone that SSJ Blue can match up with Beerus, which was something Goku said that Vegito would not be able to.
As for how Salagir does it.....I don't know honestly, though I would not be too surprised considering DBM's Vegito is borderline Gary Stu.
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Post by christhesaiyan on May 15, 2017 2:57:30 GMT
Vegito would lose. SSJB is close to Beerus level. He might win at SSJ2 or SSJ3 but it's hard to say.
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Post by Son Pan on May 15, 2017 20:33:16 GMT
I would honestly think this should be a closer fight, but that mostly because I really think SSB should be a weaker form than SSG. Goku was able to force Beerus to use 70% of his power. It makes no sense at all to have Beerus be stronger without training and SSB being made the stronger transformation. To me SSB Goku should be inferior to SSG Goku and by that virtue SS1 Vegetto should have a better chance of fighting him than SSG Goku. Having said that I think SSB Goku would still being stronger than Vegetto at SS1. Vegetto would have to go SS2 or SS3 have a shot at winning.
Super upped the power scale, so we have to accept God forms far outstrip Vegetto and Buu in DBZ. Goku would win no problem.
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Post by Axalon on May 30, 2017 15:37:31 GMT
I would honestly think this should be a closer fight, but that mostly because I really think SSB should be a weaker form than SSG. Goku was able to force Beerus to use 70% of his power. I'd honestly take that with a grain of salt. I feel like some bits of the movies were retconned long ago in the transition to the anime/manga. I don't recall the DBS version of BotG referencing the 70% figure, plus any statement in DBS of Beerus going "all out" was a bunch of baloney as Beerus and Whis discuss on their way home after fighting Goku, plus the manga doesn't mention it either. Likely a case of power creep catching up a bit too fast for even DB standards, so Beerus is retconned to just be "above" Goku and Vegeta constantly. Same with the movie version of RoF, since I don't believe DBS ever had the "Goku and Vegeta could possibly defeat Beerus if they worked together!" line. Hell, Goku even flat-out says in the RoF DBS saga that the two of them together couldn't take on Beerus, while the manga skipped over that saga entirely and just mentioned that Golden Frieza was defeated offscreen. As for Supreme Kai's manga statement of SSB Vegito being stronger than Beerus, I'm also doubtful based on the source. The guy hasn't exactly been the greatest judge of power after all, vastly overestimating or underestimating various power levels in the Buu saga. Even if he's right, it'd only apply to manga canon anyway.
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Post by Son Pan on May 30, 2017 19:31:22 GMT
I would honestly think this should be a closer fight, but that mostly because I really think SSB should be a weaker form than SSG. Goku was able to force Beerus to use 70% of his power. I'd honestly take that with a grain of salt. I feel like some bits of the movies were retconned long ago in the transition to the anime/manga. I don't recall the DBS version of BotG referencing the 70% figure, plus any statement in DBS of Beerus going "all out" was a bunch of baloney as Beerus and Whis discuss on their way home after fighting Goku, plus the manga doesn't mention it either. Likely a case of power creep catching up a bit too fast for even DB standards, so Beerus is retconned to just be "above" Goku and Vegeta constantly. Same with the movie version of RoF, since I don't believe DBS ever had the "Goku and Vegeta could possibly defeat Beerus if they worked together!" line. Hell, Goku even flat-out says in the RoF DBS saga that the two of them together couldn't take on Beerus, while the manga skipped over that saga entirely and just mentioned that Golden Frieza was defeated offscreen. As for Supreme Kai's manga statement of SSB Vegito being stronger than Beerus, I'm also doubtful based on the source. The guy hasn't exactly been the greatest judge of power after all, vastly overestimating or underestimating various power levels in the Buu saga. Even if he's right, it'd only apply to manga canon anyway. My Super upping the power scale statement was my way of acknowledging this. I should have been clearer with that. I'm not really disputing that Super didn't change that from BoG. My post was more arguing that I think SSB should be weaker than SSG to explain the huge power gap between the Saiyans and Beerus now over Beerus being retcon to not having used 70% of his power and constantly being stronger just because he is a god. I find that unsatisfactory. To me there is no benefit to having SSB being a stronger form than SSG. It would make more sense to have SSG (temporary power level) match to 70% of Beerus power than have Goku and Vegeta reaching a higher power than SSG than retcon Beerus was really way stronger than he said he was and let's pretend it didn't happen. That's why I used should a lot in my post rather than would.
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Post by Axalon on May 30, 2017 19:48:49 GMT
I'd honestly take that with a grain of salt. I feel like some bits of the movies were retconned long ago in the transition to the anime/manga. I don't recall the DBS version of BotG referencing the 70% figure, plus any statement in DBS of Beerus going "all out" was a bunch of baloney as Beerus and Whis discuss on their way home after fighting Goku, plus the manga doesn't mention it either. Likely a case of power creep catching up a bit too fast for even DB standards, so Beerus is retconned to just be "above" Goku and Vegeta constantly. Same with the movie version of RoF, since I don't believe DBS ever had the "Goku and Vegeta could possibly defeat Beerus if they worked together!" line. Hell, Goku even flat-out says in the RoF DBS saga that the two of them together couldn't take on Beerus, while the manga skipped over that saga entirely and just mentioned that Golden Frieza was defeated offscreen. As for Supreme Kai's manga statement of SSB Vegito being stronger than Beerus, I'm also doubtful based on the source. The guy hasn't exactly been the greatest judge of power after all, vastly overestimating or underestimating various power levels in the Buu saga. Even if he's right, it'd only apply to manga canon anyway. My Super upping the power scale statement was my way of acknowledging this. I should have been clearer with that. I'm not really disputing that Super didn't change that from BoG. My post was more arguing that I think SSB should be weaker than SSG to explain the huge power gap between the Saiyans and Beerus now over Beerus being retcon to not having used 70% of his power and constantly being stronger just because he is a god. I find that unsatisfactory. To me there is no benefit to having SSB being a stronger form than SSG. It would make more sense to have SSG (temporary power level) match to 70% of Beerus power than have Goku and Vegeta reaching a higher power than SSG than retcon Beerus was really way stronger than he said he was and let's pretend it didn't happen. That's why I used should a lot in my post rather than would. In some ways SSG is a better form though, in the anime at least. Remember when Beerus decided to just impale SSG Goku and then Goku healed himself? That would've come in handy when the Black/Zamasu tag-team impaled him later on, and suggests that form and so far that form only comes with some kind of self-healing ability, even if SSB itself is has more power to it. Again, only in the anime though. As for the Beerus retcon, yeah retcons suck, but it still isn't the worst retcon in DB at the very least.
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Post by Son Pan on May 30, 2017 20:00:42 GMT
My Super upping the power scale statement was my way of acknowledging this. I should have been clearer with that. I'm not really disputing that Super didn't change that from BoG. My post was more arguing that I think SSB should be weaker than SSG to explain the huge power gap between the Saiyans and Beerus now over Beerus being retcon to not having used 70% of his power and constantly being stronger just because he is a god. I find that unsatisfactory. To me there is no benefit to having SSB being a stronger form than SSG. It would make more sense to have SSG (temporary power level) match to 70% of Beerus power than have Goku and Vegeta reaching a higher power than SSG than retcon Beerus was really way stronger than he said he was and let's pretend it didn't happen. That's why I used should a lot in my post rather than would. In some ways SSG is a better form though, in the anime at least. Remember when Beerus decided to just impale SSG Goku and then Goku healed himself? That would've come in handy when the Black/Zamasu tag-team impaled him later on, and suggests that form and so far that form only comes with some kind of self-healing ability, even if SSB itself is has more power to it. Again, only in the anime though. As for the Beerus retcon, yeah retcons suck, but it still isn't the worst retcon in DB at the very least. I honestly checked out of the anime a few episodes into Super because it took too long. I'm not even sure I got into the SSG Goku vs Beerus fight. It's not the worst retcon. I just disliked it, because I frankly felt there were better ways to have Beerus stay on top. I think that is just me. Most people seem fine with Beerus just being stronger without training. It is probably because I'm not as big of a fan of his. He was cool in BoG, but to me is just as bad as Vegetto in DBM and the Kai in canon except Toriyama rewards his laziness by having him be successful in spite of it lol. To me he is what Supreme Kai is to you, except plot is on his side for a change.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on May 30, 2017 20:19:19 GMT
In this latest saga, Beerus certainly seems like a glorified, angrier kaioshin than anything else now.
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Post by Azoth on May 30, 2017 20:26:51 GMT
Blue. Goku knew Vegeto wouldn't be any match for Beerus, yet SSG was capable of going toe to toe with him. Presumably, Vegeto could go SSJ3, and Goku knew that.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on May 30, 2017 20:31:12 GMT
Blue. Goku knew Vegeto wouldn't be any match for Beerus, yet SSG was capable of going toe to toe with him. Presumably, Vegeto could go SSJ3, and Goku knew that. Then again, Base Vegetto blew half of Zamasu's body away in the manga.
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Post by Kirasha on May 31, 2017 8:20:16 GMT
Blue. Goku knew Vegeto wouldn't be any match for Beerus, yet SSG was capable of going toe to toe with him. Presumably, Vegeto could go SSJ3, and Goku knew that. Then again, Base Vegetto blew half of Zamasu's body away in the manga. Yeah but by then, Goku and Vegeta had already long surpassed base Vegetto by themselves, so that isn't an accurate statement, as DBS Base Vegetto is stronger than DBZ Base Vegetto. Rule of progression applies here.
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