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Post by Conqueror Geng on Oct 19, 2016 3:17:35 GMT
I'd have taken a similar route to U3 - make a butterfly effect, focusing on the early movie villains. Part of what makes U3 the most interesting is that, though Tapion and Raichi aren't inherently all that interesting by themselves, they become a lot more unique when they have to bounce off one another. And a lot of the movie villains kinda need that, because they're really lacking in personality besides "WORLD DOMINATION" and having someone to compare them to would be a big help. So... U21(?): Space Pirates. Garlic Jr. succeeds in trapping Kami, Goku, Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo in the Dead Zone. Because Piccolo and Kami are still alive, the Dragonballs still work. Now immortal, and the most powerful being on Earth, Garlic Jr. quickly kicks off his world conquest plot, picking off Tien, Yamcha, Master Roshi et al, and releasing the Black Water Mist to conquer a large swathe of the planet. Meanwhile, in space, Lord Slug senses that the guardian of Earth is now gone. He then proceeds to make a beeline to there... in the process, running into fellow space pirate Turles. The two of them have a brief standoff, but ultimately decide that they can both make use of this "Earth" thing, and arrive a year later. Once there, the two powerful warriors clash with Garlic Jr. - despite training quite a bit, the Makyan is far, far weaker than either of them, and his Mist-infected followers can't get close, but his immortality makes him a tough nut to crack. Irritated, he threatens to cast them into the Dead Zone, and the both of them relent, offering to make the immortal warrior an equal partner in their dealings. In exchange for this, Garlic provides Lord Slug with the Dragonballs, restoring him to the prime of his youth. Turles plants the Tree of Might, sucking the planet dry, and Lord Slug freezes the now-dead world, making it into a new cruiser. However, all the environmental devastation destroys a layer of ice over a mountain laboratory... reactivating the facilities of Doctor Wheelo. The mad scientist who planned to conquer the world quickly uses the facility's sensors to discover that the Earth is now a deadening wasteland. Enraged, he emerges, and charges into battle - only to discover that he is massively outclassed by the rogue Saiyan, let alone the Namekian. After Turles rips his head off, Wheelo pleads for his life, promising his scientific skills if they spare his life and give him a place. Turles shrugs, and grants him his request. Not long afterward, Wheelo plunders the few remaining labs of Earth for any scientific secrets - Capsule Corp's patents, Gero's androids, various tools of magic - while Turles stockpiles his fruit and Lord Slug completes the Earth's transformation into a battleship. Slug uses the mystical knowledge he's obtained over the years to remove the scattering effect from the Earth Dragonballs, meaning they can now be freely wished upon. Garlic Jr trains himself to his absolute maximum, keeping his last supply of Black Water Mist secret. Drunk on fruit and wishes, the newfound organization decides to go head-to-head with the Planetary Trade Organization. Freeza arrives on the scene to put down the rebellion, but the ruthless Slug pulps him before he can reach his final form. Cooler is next, taking an entire fleet with him, but Garlic Jr opens up a massive portal to the Dead Zone to entrap the fleet - Cooler escapes, but weakened by the experience, he is easy prey for Turles. Finally, King Cold descends, having assumed his final form for the first time in decades... at which Wheelo unleashes a weapon based on Gero's android models, vaporizing the King. With little in their path, the New Space Pirate Organization dominates much of the galaxy. Having gorged themselves on Tree of Might fruit and shored up on wishes to increase their power further, they have become the most powerful beings in their universe by far. However, they are constantly at odds with one another - each one thinks that, instead of owning a quarter of the galaxy, they should have all of it. They constantly plot against one another, and the only thing that keeps any of them from eliminating one is the absolute certainty that the other two would gang up on him. Turles, the cultivator, has come a long way from the days of being a low-class warrior. With his Saiyan competitiveness and zenkai, he has become the second strongest of the group... and the first to realize that his usefulness to the group may be running out. He has noticed that the Tree of Might no longer multiplies his strength to the degree it once did, and fears that he may be becoming immune to its effect from exposure. With this in mind, he has poured his efforts into achieving the legendary Super Saiyan transformation, but he has no idea how he'd accomplish this. He has never loved or cared for anything particularly much in his life, leaving him too lacking in drive to obtain it... yet. Garlic Jr, the mystic, remains the weakest, even years later. He wishes to return to Makyo, his true homeland, but the other members have justifiably given the demon world a wide berth. Though he is largely at peace with the avenging of his father, his insecurity and lust for power continues to gnaw at him. He has become the caretaker of the Dragonballs, and refuses to allow any other member of the group to wish for immortality. Though he believes the Black Water Mist could level the playing field easily, he doesn't know how it would work - Lord Slug, being a Namekian, is immune, and Wheelo doesn't breathe. Hence, he has planned to kill his rivals conventionally. Lord Slug, the brute, is the most confident of the group in his power. Following his wish, the Super Namekian rivalled Freeza in brute strength, and his power has only grown since then. Though he is the least intelligent of the group, he is no fool, and knows full well that the others could contest him. Hence, he focuses most of his efforts on building a fleet of war worlds, which he has clustered around his old homeland of Namek. Despite everything, he bears some affection for his old homeland - but he knows about the Dragonballs there, and though he fears the possibility of Guru's death, if pushed, he will take to its surface to try to obtain immortality. Finally, Wheelo hates the other members more than any. Garlic Jr did not much begrudge the loss of Earth, but Wheelo saw his home planet that he had hoped to conquer be reduced to a dead rock. Now one of the last living humans, his hatred has festered into full-blown mania, one only exacerbated by the refusal of the others to grant him a new body. Because of this, Wheelo has sequestered his power, perfecting Gero's research in weapons and biotech to create increasingly powerful mechanical bodies - his latest model, he believes, could overpower them all. But Wheelo cannot truly commit to his revenge - being a genius, he has realized that after his revenge, Earth would remain gone. Thus, he continues to work on weapons and bio-warriors for the others, biding his time. This reminds me of a filler episode of "Break Through the Limit" where Turles and Slug are warlords on a far-away planet and fight for its control. IMO, best episode in that Raditz fanfic by concept alone. What you did there was push it several notches above. This could make awesome material for a fan comic.
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Post by mbg on Oct 19, 2016 4:34:15 GMT
This reminds me of a filler episode of "Break Through the Limit" where Turles and Slug are warlords on a far-away planet and fight for its control. IMO, best episode in that Raditz fanfic by concept alone. What you did there was push it several notches above. This could make awesome material for a fan comic. Aw, thanks. Like I said, I feel like fan affection for characters like Turles, Slug, Wheelo, and Garlic Jr far outstrips their actual storytelling potential as main villains. They have some very cool designs, and some concepts that have potential (particularly Wheelo, who's basically Doctor Gero 1.0), but Garlic Jr is by far the best-characterized of them, and that's only because he has an actual motivation aside from wanting to take over the world because he's evil (and even without that motivation, he'd be doing it anyway). But when you have four villains who all want to take over the world sitting across the table from each other, that means you have to show the places where they can and do differ. In my case, I played up elements that could be inferred from their characters and situation - Turles's sociopathy, Wheelo's humanocentric pride, Slug's brutishness, and Garlic Jr's inferiority complex. Where four cardboard villains meet, one sort of interesting group results! For the record, their powers are mostly Cell Saga-tier, due to training heavily against each other and in anticipation of battling each other. Wheelo's absolute strongest armors could contest Super Buu in a shoving match, but they're distantly an outlier and even the others don't know about them (also, they're mostly not done).
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Post by dnasaiyanred on Oct 19, 2016 18:23:15 GMT
So I made up a Universe 11 where it was an anarchy world ruled by an android from the Demon World (Not Mira) and he turned Humans into Cyborgs/Androids. So like the 2 main fighters, defending the world were brothers (Age 17)Red and (Age 18)Kio. Kio while fighting the elite androids, ends up being killed. Which causes Red to become extremely angry. Then Red turns into a super saiyan. What happens is that Red and Kio before it all became chaos, were like test subjects in a scientific facility. (They don't remember it by the way) And the experiments were to see what would happen if they infused Human DNA with some DNA found in weird Alien space pods (Saiyan Pods) so they got there DNA/Blood stuff infused with Saiyans. Which is why Red can turn into a Super Saiyan. And Red then proceeds to destroy the enemies base, kill the elite androids and Kamehameha the Demon Android into space, then smashing through him thus ending the anarchy times and peace is restored. Red is light toned skin like most DBZ characters, and he has dark blonde/light brown hair. He's skinny but also muscular because he couldnt eat much and had to fight for survival. He has a red shirt, black fighting pants like a gi. His hands and feet have bandage wraps on them for fighting stuff. And he has a red head band like Bardock's. Even though Super Saiyan is his limit, he's still much stronger than Cell or Dabura. Because his base form was trained up so much that when he Turns Super Saiyan he's extremely powerful. He just learned the Kamehameha from like a piece of paper that he found. It was on an island. (the same island as the Kame house)
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Post by dnasaiyanred on Oct 19, 2016 18:25:14 GMT
Also I wanna see Dragon Ball Super Universe in there. And the fighters gotta include Gohan. But make him like go at least SSJ2 or SSJ3. and then of course goku and vegeta with SSBlue and Just buu and piccolo for reasons. and Maybe beerus.
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Post by mbg on Nov 3, 2016 7:54:10 GMT
I was hopping around the FAQ page, and found a few things by Salagir that detailed why some characters didn't make the cut.
- Garlic Junior, Wheelo, and Slug just didn't do too hot in the popularity polls - the reasoning's ambiguous, but it seems like there wasn't much support for them (Salagir's directly admitted to thinking Lord Slug is one of the worse movies). He also clarifies that none of them would have made it very far in the rounds (which, let's be honest, is kinda true - I had to do some major headgames to even justify them being at Android Saga-ish power). - Turles was left out for similar reasons, but he was twice-damned by the fact that he's kinda redundant. Turles's character concept is "what if Goku was a genuine Saiyan", and that already existed in the story. - Androids 13-15 were cut for two reasons: firstly, their movie really doesn't fit anywhere in canon without some massive rewrites (which would have to include their power levels) and secondly, they're so lacking in personality that they wouldn't be any fun to write. - Pikkon was out because he's from Other World, and therefore dead. Other World seems to be off-limits for recruitment (after all, nobody dead in other universes showed up). - Janemba has the same problem as Pikkon, with the added issue of the fact that Janemba is a crazy person and wouldn't be able to take part in the tournament without indiscriminately murdering the other contenders while he's supposed to be watching the match.
Just things to keep in mind, I s'pose, though they probably don't count for much.
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Post by Drakthul on Nov 3, 2016 8:01:29 GMT
I'd personally have liked to see a bit more creative use of certain universes that were left out.
Turles would be redundant, that's true. He really was going to be quite bluntly "Kakarot" until they rewrote the script entirely to fit different concepts.
But honestly, the strength of people from certain universes don't need to be tied to their movie/canon counterparts. Slug and Garlic probably should have been in, and perhaps scaled up to be somewhat threatening. But those 2 are really the only two I can think of. And even though Movie 4's not perfect, I gotta admit, I love when Slug fights Goku. That's a great fight, especially when he gets BIG. Had some weak spots in it too, but it really does frame to me how a good, but short Dragon Ball fight can go.
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Post by The Masterman on Nov 3, 2016 9:29:37 GMT
I'd personally have liked to see a bit more creative use of certain universes that were left out. Turles would be redundant, that's true. He really was going to be quite bluntly "Kakarot" until they rewrote the script entirely to fit different concepts. But honestly, the strength of people from certain universes don't need to be tied to their movie/canon counterparts. Slug and Garlic probably should have been in, and perhaps scaled up to be somewhat threatening. But those 2 are really the only two I can think of. And even though Movie 4's not perfect, I gotta admit, I love when Slug fights Goku. That's a great fight, especially when he gets BIG. Had some weak spots in it too, but it really does frame to me how a good, but short Dragon Ball fight can go. I'd add a universe where Turles landed on a planet that made the Tree of Might's fruit so powerful he'd be able to contend with SS1 Goku and have him be smart about taking the earth by finding the dragonballs and taking Piccolo hostage so the Z warriors can't do anything or risk the dragonballs becoming useless. As for finding them: he arrives in time to capture the Z warriors collecting them just before they activate them.
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Post by Drakthul on Nov 3, 2016 9:37:23 GMT
I'd probably not put him in at all, because Turles is literally just Kakarot.
And I say this with a heavy Turles bias, given that he's a massive centre-piece of my two biggest stories.
I may think Slug or Garlic could work, but there just isn't a point of having Turles in it, not without a significant rewrite of one universe, and it would hardly resemble his universe then.
But on a quick note, Turles is one of the few movie Characters who could be scaled up almost infinitely, even without transformations.
The Tree of Might could be planted across the universe. Its actually a terrifying thing.
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Post by The Masterman on Nov 3, 2016 9:44:12 GMT
I'd probably not put him in at all, because Turles is literally just Kakarot. And I say this with a heavy Turles bias, given that he's a massive centre-piece of my two biggest stories. I may think Slug or Garlic could work, but there just isn't a point of having Turles in it, not without a significant rewrite of one universe, and it would hardly resemble his universe then. But on a quick note, Turles is one of the few movie Characters who could be scaled up almost infinitely, even without transformations. The Tree of Might could be planted across the universe. Its actually a terrifying thing. Exactly, also as for rewriting sadly it would have to happen either right before or directly after the Garlic Jr. filler saga so Goku wouldn't be there to wreck Turles. As for Garlic Jr... I see him doing just as well as King Piccolo did, one good fight then completely dominated. Lord Slug might last a bit longer but not for very long so yeah they'd have to be upscaled.
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Post by Drakthul on Nov 3, 2016 9:54:01 GMT
Sadly, Turles is the least viable candidate due to his nature, but the most likely candidate to be an end game fighter.
That sucks. lol
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Post by The Masterman on Nov 3, 2016 9:57:40 GMT
Nevermind...
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 3, 2016 14:09:17 GMT
- Androids 13-15 were cut for two reasons: firstly, their movie really doesn't fit anywhere in canon without some massive rewrites (which would have to include their power levels) and secondly, they're so lacking in personality that they wouldn't be any fun to write. No personality? No personality?
Nah, Androids 13-15 are pretty boring. But on a quick note, Turles is one of the few movie Characters who could be scaled up almost infinitely, even without transformations. The Tree of Might could be planted across the universe. Its actually a terrifying thing. This is why I dislike the Tree of Might movie so much. The Tree of Might is a fantastic concept--a living, evil Spirit Bomb that you can make and consume indefinitely. The movie and villain? Kind of boring. They both could've been a lot better.
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Post by mbg on Nov 3, 2016 17:40:42 GMT
This is why I dislike the Tree of Might movie so much. The Tree of Might is a fantastic concept--a living, evil Spirit Bomb that you can make and consume indefinitely. The movie and villain? Kind of boring. They both could've been a lot better. I also love how the Tree isn't actually evil. It's just a regular plant that happens to have stupidly high energy requirements. There's probably a distant planet with hundreds of the things dotting the surface, and the natives just use them for shade because the planet's got enough juice for them. It's not evil any more than kudzu vine is evil. But yeah, Turles. I remember there was a TFS stream where they had fun going "Turles was an average fighter, but a brilliant botanist!"
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Post by Symbiotic on Nov 3, 2016 18:57:58 GMT
Time to contribute: The obvious -Replace u18 with DB Super, at the time of the interuniversal tournament. Same line up, but with Mr Buu. -The universe where Golden Frieza won, created before Whis turned back the clock. Maybe resurrect those new henchmen he had to provide some contrast with the Ginyu force. -GT universe. Vegeta (with SS4), Majuub, Pan, and that's everyone relevant (lol). -GT1: Bebi won, Tuffles all the way down. Bebi Vegeta is the only competitor, though maybe Tuffle Gohan can be Mystic level serious. Goten, Trunks and Bra come with too, and possibly Pan if she got infected as well. The trump card will be Bebi's Golden Oozaru form, corrupted SS4 or after learning about the SS God ritual somehow having his Saiyans do it to him. -GT2: Super 17, nuff said. -GT3: Either all the Shadow Dragons or just Omega Shenron.
-Bonus: AF universe or one set in that time, doesn't really matter which one. SS5 being the big deal here, though this would have to replace GT. There are too many AF variants to list all their 'villain wins' copies, but Ize would have great chemistry with Golden Frieza and they would have to be one of the matches. Alakazam and Super Buu, of course, and Rigor and Broly. Xicor too, he has a good look.
I'm extremely hesitant to put in Goku Black or Zamasu because they'd instantly derail things. If Black were in, it would have to be from a future where Trunks never escaped to the past at least but I doubt that would make him any less ax-crazy.
And the ones just for fun: -Movies: Lord Slug and Turles jointly rule the galaxy, and limit each others growth somewhat. Galactic cold war is ongoing, want the dragon balls to get the edge on their enemy. -DB Legends based: Bardock saw the future, convinced King Vegeta to evacuate all the Saiyans to Earth. The competitors in this universe would be Bardock, King Vegeta and maybe their children, perhaps Broly as well, but sane. They'd be staggeringly powerful in the regular forms just because of how average Super Saiyans would be with thousands of Saiyans that survived striving for that level. -Future: Imperfect Cell never travelled back in time, just went throughout the universe absorbing life. Wants to wish for his Perfect form. Strength level could be anything from his canon level and up. -Future Gohan! Unfortunately, Trunks died and that gave Gohan a shot in the arm to eventually beat the Androids. -Majin Janemba, Pui Pui, Yakon, Dabura and Majin Vegeta. Or even cut the rest and just have it be Majin Vegeta and Dabura; I just really want to have Janemba in action somewhere. -Hatchiyak as Raichi's main fighter, may be redundant depending on where the fight goes this chapter. -Garlic Jr. The immortal punching bag!
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 3, 2016 23:14:03 GMT
I was hopping around the FAQ page, and found a few things by Salagir that detailed why some characters didn't make the cut. - Garlic Junior, Wheelo, and Slug just didn't do too hot in the popularity polls - the reasoning's ambiguous, but it seems like there wasn't much support for them (Salagir's directly admitted to thinking Lord Slug is one of the worse movies). He also clarifies that none of them would have made it very far in the rounds (which, let's be honest, is kinda true - I had to do some major headgames to even justify them being at Android Saga-ish power). - Turles was left out for similar reasons, but he was twice-damned by the fact that he's kinda redundant. Turles's character concept is "what if Goku was a genuine Saiyan", and that already existed in the story. - Androids 13-15 were cut for two reasons: firstly, their movie really doesn't fit anywhere in canon without some massive rewrites (which would have to include their power levels) and secondly, they're so lacking in personality that they wouldn't be any fun to write. - Pikkon was out because he's from Other World, and therefore dead. Other World seems to be off-limits for recruitment (after all, nobody dead in other universes showed up). - Janemba has the same problem as Pikkon, with the added issue of the fact that Janemba is a crazy person and wouldn't be able to take part in the tournament without indiscriminately murdering the other contenders while he's supposed to be watching the match. Just things to keep in mind, I s'pose, though they probably don't count for much. I get some of these villains just being ones people didn't like enough to use them, but I think the whole multiverse angle that it is a perfect excuse to reinvent some of these characters to make them work better or have them stand out more than they did in their movies. Lord Slug to me works better than King Piccolo, since he is a galactic conquer rather than a warlord on Earth. He could be an evil Namek version of the Grand Elder Namek, where he gave birth to his own race of Nameks that became his evil warriors. It could be interesting to see a group of evil Namek warriors that spread out across the universe. That could have been U10. With Freeza's family having been wiped out Slug's family could have easily taken their place. 13-15 could have easily been imported into a universe where Gero succeeded in keeping all his androids and cyborgs under his control and he won. Janemba was newly born creature. You could easily have a universe where he matured and grew intelligent to have him in the tournament. He had cool powers that I would have loved to have seen explored in the tournament. Turles I can see working because despite being the concept of evil Goku he was more of Vegeta type in terms of intelligence and the way he carried himself. He could have come out different from either Kakarot or Bardock. They aren't necessary characters and if he didn't want to use them I respect that, but I don't think they were unusable or unable to work in the DBM setting like how they clash with canon. Mos people seem to be using the movies run in alternate universes already it would be cool to seen this comic acknowledge that.
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Post by Ashanark on Nov 5, 2016 16:42:26 GMT
But honestly, the strength of people from certain universes don't need to be tied to their movie/canon counterparts. Slug and Garlic probably should have been in, and perhaps scaled up to be somewhat threatening. But those 2 are really the only two I can think of. And even though Movie 4's not perfect, I gotta admit, I love when Slug fights Goku. That's a great fight, especially when he gets BIG. Had some weak spots in it too, but it really does frame to me how a good, but short Dragon Ball fight can go. Goku vs. Slug is probably the best final fight of any DBZ movie. Not necessarily because of choreography or anything, but because of how even it is. In most DBZ movies, Goku gets completely stomped until he develops the winning strategy, and then he wins in one move. But Goku vs. Slug seesaws back and forth multiple times. Slug's winning at first, then Goku's winning, then Slug goes huge, but Goku still puts up a fight, then Piccolo interferes, then Goku is winning, then Slug is winning, then Goku uses the Spirit Bomb to beat him. Pretty exciting. In general the DBZ movies I like best are the ones with the most even fights/multiple people getting real fights. That's why I like Dead Zone, World's Strongest, Lord Slug, and Android 13.
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Post by Drakthul on Nov 5, 2016 16:45:45 GMT
I also probably would add a universe where Gohan is an actual participant in the tournament.
:\
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Post by Symbiotic on Nov 5, 2016 16:52:53 GMT
Oh shit, how did I not remember this one:
A universe where Raditz turned to the side of good, to represent all the fanfics where such a thing happened. Maybe throw in Nappa for funsies. But no Vegeta, that's the price.
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Post by mbg on Nov 5, 2016 21:20:17 GMT
Goku vs. Slug is probably the best final fight of any DBZ movie. Not necessarily because of choreography or anything, but because of how even it is. In most DBZ movies, Goku gets completely stomped until he develops the winning strategy, and then he wins in one move. But Goku vs. Slug seesaws back and forth multiple times. Slug's winning at first, then Goku's winning, then Slug goes huge, but Goku still puts up a fight, then Piccolo interferes, then Goku is winning, then Slug is winning, then Goku uses the Spirit Bomb to beat him. Pretty exciting. In general the DBZ movies I like best are the ones with the most even fights/multiple people getting real fights. That's why I like Dead Zone, World's Strongest, Lord Slug, and Android 13. Lord Slug is one of those cases of "terrible concept, good execution." If you were told "make a movie where the villain's a blatant and mildly inexplicable knockoff of King Piccolo with the same plan as the guy from the last movie, and it has the Super Saiyan transformation in it but we don't actually know what that looks like so make something up, oh, and the main villain's weakness is whistling", then I really don't think you could hope for a better movie than the final product.
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Post by Son Pan on Nov 6, 2016 8:13:38 GMT
Slug worked for me as well. He was based off of King Piccolo, but he had some cool elements going for him to. I liked him being a galactic conquer and one of the survivors of disaster on Namek like the Elder and Kami/Piccolo was. He kicked a lot of ass too.
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