??????
|
Post by Azoth on Aug 30, 2016 3:35:45 GMT
|
|
??????
|
Post by jkrevan on Aug 30, 2016 3:47:35 GMT
He's p much braindead.
Absent father.
Completely oblivious to the seriousness of ANY situation
Endangers his family, friends and world in a stupid passig of torch ritual without bothering to tell anyone, TWICE.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Sept 2, 2016 8:32:44 GMT
His love of fighting and need to improve himself have become some serious flaws that are intriguing to talk about. I doubt this was Toriyama's intentions, but he did a scary job at how self-improving desire can be just as bad as becoming complacent and never trying to improve. Goku is training to the point where its taken over his life. It leaves him with little time for his friends and family. In the final few chapters of DB Bulma complains they hadn't seen Goku in years. For a man who can teleport and has a granddaughter who can do play dates with his friends' kids it speaks a whole lot. It almost feels like toward the end that he bored with family life and just left it behind. Which is terrible really when you think about it. Sure you can argue Gohan and Goten were grown at that point so he didn't need to stay at home, but there is still Chi-Chi and Pan to consider. Goku had taken it upon himself to train Pan and then just left.
In a way it is like the lovable kid we saw in DB has become so obsessed with fighting and getting stronger that he has put it above everything else, friends and family. The ending of the original series you have family and friends sort of watch him do it. It supposed to be a happy ending, but when you think hard about it you realize Goku chose fighting over everything else. He becomes a man unable to embrace peace and longs for new challenges and conflict. The irony is of course how everyone else in the series has accepted peace and enjoying it with Vegeta outdoing Goku in this area.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Azoth on Sept 2, 2016 22:40:23 GMT
I think by the time End of Z rolls around, everyone's used to Goku doing shit like this. "Oh, Goku's going to run off with this random kid he just met? Of COURSE he is. Bye Goku, have fun. Jerk."
|
|
??????
|
Post by Jaquan on Sept 3, 2016 11:52:39 GMT
Son PanActually Toriyama stated himself that it was his intention. Goku was never meant to be "pure hearted white knight" Toei made him look like in the anime. He is meant to be selfish putting his enjoyment in battle before anything else (and eventually dealing with consequences but never learning from them). In a way contrary to what others may say... Goku lacks empathy. Or rather he barely concerns himself with feeling of others assuming they think like him. He lacks any forethought in his action and lives pretty carelessly as long as someone puts food on his table. (I still wonder where Chi-chi had all that money to survive 17 years, no way Goku's prize lasted this long). I still wonder whether his friends are that dumb or are opportunists hoping the Strong guy will protect them. Because it's a miracle not even single person got fed up with his behavior.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Sept 3, 2016 20:40:21 GMT
Eh, I don't think you can place the blame on White Knight tendencies on the anime. Even in the manga those qualities were given to Goku. Pure hearted was a trait established by Toriayam himself with the Nimbus cloud and being able to use Spirit Bomb. There was time frame when Goku would spare people in Saiyan arc to the Freeza arc, which was seemingly based on empathy (with the exception of Vegeta who he said he wanted a rematch later). Goku giving Freeza some of his own ki for example wasn't out of a desire to fight him later like with Piccolo or Vegeta. Freeza begging him for his life and Goku angrily chastising him for never sparing any of his victims only to end up sparing Freeza if only for some sense of sympathy or empathy toward him.
That's why I question if Toriayam's intent was to have the ending be a deconstruction of Goku's personality or actions. He's been inconsistent with Goku's character and morality that if what Toriyama views Goku's character now is really how he envisioned him 20 years ago.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on Sept 4, 2016 2:57:17 GMT
The whole "Goku's a bad parent thing" is something we can probably thank TFS for. I don't think anyone took it all that seriously before DBZAbridged came out. To me, the only flaw Goku made in his parenting was putting Gohan up against Cell, and even that takes a bit more discussion. His flaw was that, despite spending one year alone with Gohan, he somehow missed that Gohan isn't like him and doesn't like fighting. (It also was a bad idea for him to send Gohan in without telling him the plan...but I'd call that an Out of Character moment Toriyama did so the story would have suspense.) However, since Goku figured Gohan was their best chance to beat Cell, and since the entire world (if not universe) was at stake, in my opinion it still wasn't wrong for Goku to have Gohan fight.
If Goku has another flaw, it's that--no matter how much confidence he had in Gohan--giving Cell a senzu bean for a "fair fight" was stupid.
Also...
According to the always absolutely right TV Tropes, Goku's parenting is actually an example of Values Dissonance: "In North America, especially the US, Goku comes off as a neglectful father and husband. In other parts of the world, especially the Asian countries, Goku comes off as a good father who spoils Gohan (too much according to Japan)."
|
|
??????
|
Post by Ashanark on Sept 4, 2016 5:05:48 GMT
I... I'm sorry? Do you mean the NA dub does this or it's a cultural difference? Because if it's the latter then I'm glad I didn't grow up in Japan, I don't see how leaving his son to train for 8 years (1 year to beat Vegeta + 7 years after Cell) and spending half the time he did have with him beating on him (3 years to Androids + 1 year time chamber) or just making the conscious decision not to come home (1.5 years in space after Frieza) makes him a good and spoiling father in Japan and I don't think I want to lol. Really the only time he wasn't abandoning him, beating him or dying on him was his first 4 years of life.
Also, slightly off-topic: Goku vs. Vegeta father debate:
A former boss once told me that "You can tell what's most important to someone by where they spend their time." Going by that, Vegeta has got Goku beat, since he's spent far more time with Trunks than Goku has with Gohan or Goten. His influence on his kids is (at least at first) greater than Goku's, since Chi-Chi had Gohan studying like mad even when Goku was alive, and Trunks, as a kid, was always wanting to train with Dad instead of make inventions with Bulma. Goku definitely has Vegeta beat when it comes to affection and encouragement, though. Although Vegeta was happy that Trunks beat Goten in the World Tournament, he didn't say anything to Trunks about it, and I don't think Vegeta once ever complimented or congratulated his son until after he went Majin. Goku might not've been around that much for his kids, but the time he did spend with them was very high-quality.
End-of-DBZ Vegeta, though, is a tougher call. He's calmed down and mellowed out, and that makes him seem a lot more dependable than the carefree Goku. I think of Goku as the sort of dad who's always willing to spend time with his kids, but will fight tooth-and-nail if he has to go to a parent-teacher conference. Vegeta might not want to play catch in his free time, but if Trunks ever slacked off in his schoolwork I think Bulma could count on Vegeta to give Trunks a lecture on responsibility. (Vegeta probably could care less about human schools, but he'd do it because Bulma asked him. I don't see Goku lecturing Gohan about his studies...he's been blowing off Chi-Chi about it for years.)
DBM makes it even harder to tell Goku vs. Vegeta, since Pan has more and better scenes with Vegeta than she does with Goku... |
|
??????
|
Post by Jaquan on Sept 4, 2016 12:14:37 GMT
To be absolutely fair I don't find Goku a terrible father. Not a great one by any means just... He treats his family just like the treats his friends. He's quite caring about them unless... The fighting flag rises. That's it. Fighting is his utmost priority and it's just for the sake of himself. Even his "sparing the opponent" is more of a selfish choice rather than hoping his foes will chose another path. All he hoped is that they will give him another fun fight in the future (and he was cocky enough to believe he WILL be able to stop them if they tried something out). Frankly he is a Sayian after all. Lusting for battle just not being bloodthirsty while at it.
|
|
??????
|
Post by Son Pan on Sept 5, 2016 7:35:44 GMT
The whole "Goku's a bad parent thing" is something we can probably thank TFS for. I don't think anyone took it all that seriously before DBZAbridged came out. To me, the only flaw Goku made in his parenting was putting Gohan up against Cell, and even that takes a bit more discussion. His flaw was that, despite spending one year alone with Gohan, he somehow missed that Gohan isn't like him and doesn't like fighting. (It also was a bad idea for him to send Gohan in without telling him the plan...but I'd call that an Out of Character moment Toriyama did so the story would have suspense.) However, since Goku figured Gohan was their best chance to beat Cell, and since the entire world (if not universe) was at stake, in my opinion it still wasn't wrong for Goku to have Gohan fight.
If Goku has another flaw, it's that--no matter how much confidence he had in Gohan--giving Cell a senzu bean for a "fair fight" was stupid.
Also...
According to the always absolutely right TV Tropes, Goku's parenting is actually an example of Values Dissonance: "In North America, especially the US, Goku comes off as a neglectful father and husband. In other parts of the world, especially the Asian countries, Goku comes off as a good father who spoils Gohan (too much according to Japan)."
I don't think TFS did it. I saw it around before they started their abridged series. I think the Cell Games incident just had such a negative impact with people that they started to turn on Goku. Also not helping anything was that Piccolo is a father figure to Gohan who has been around Gohan more than Goku and who was ultimately the one to make Goku see Gohan does not like to fight. In the eyes of some Goku's parenting skills were called into question. As fans got older they started seeing Chi-chi's point a lot better, since Goku doesn't work and the family is living off her father's money. It painted a more negative perception of Goku, hence the whole Goku is a terrible father and husband debate we have nowadays. TFS just tapped into it for comedy. I wouldn't call Goku a terrible father, but more of a flawed parent, which ironically makes him more real to me than some other fictional parents. |
|
