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Post by Blaze on May 22, 2021 10:46:29 GMT
About Ultra Good Buu. Buuhan is basically just Gohan + Super Buu. And adult Gotenks is stronger than Super Buu. So Gohan + Gotenks should already be stronger than Buuhan. Adding Goku, Vegeta, and Mr Buu should just raise that even higher. I think the biggest factor in how much stronger Ultra Good Buu is than Buuhan should be how strong adult Gotenks is though. Considering Ultra Buu has adult gotenks(base) and gohan, add goku at SSJ3 and Vegeta at SSJ2 and ultra buu may just be as strong as Vegito(base). what about super vegito? nah super saiyan gives a 50X power increase and that i think thats way too far from Ultra buu. Now gauging Adult gotenks in his base... not an easy task. I would put adult gotenks base form uhh 20-10x times stronger than kid gotenks(base). going from 7 to 27(goten) and 8 to 28(trunks) and with statements from goku that even without training they raised there power a lot thanks to there adult bodies. i think 20-10x stronger is a good enough gauge. I think it very likely that Buu obtains the full power of whoever he absorbs, regardless of what transformation they were in at absorption. In the Universe 4 special Buu absorbs a SSj Vegeta but then when Vegeta is in the pod he's in base. Don't know why Buu would depower Vegeta unless it really didn't matter. In DBM, dbz base Vegetto is SSj3 tier so Ultra Good Buu is well beyond him. I think a better question is how he compares to SSj Vegetto, whether DBZ or DBM. It seems like Ultra Good Buu ended the fight weaker than Broly and so he should also be weaker than DBM SSj Vegetto. How he compares to DBZ SSj Vegetto would also depend on how much stronger Vegetto got in those twenty years, along with what his SSj multiplier is, which is confusing btw. Some possible scaling that I just came up with (please don't take the numbers too seriously): Gohan: 100 SSj3 Gotenks: 150 SSj3 Goku: 75 SSj2 Vegeta: 15 Good Buu: 10 Ultra Good Buu: 350 LSSj Broly: 200 to 500
Buuhan: 175 DBZ Vegetto: 50 DBZ SSj Vegetto: 500
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Post by Dismaned on May 22, 2021 14:00:36 GMT
Considering Ultra Buu has adult gotenks(base) and gohan, add goku at SSJ3 and Vegeta at SSJ2 and ultra buu may just be as strong as Vegito(base). what about super vegito? nah super saiyan gives a 50X power increase and that i think thats way too far from Ultra buu. Now gauging Adult gotenks in his base... not an easy task. I would put adult gotenks base form uhh 20-10x times stronger than kid gotenks(base). going from 7 to 27(goten) and 8 to 28(trunks) and with statements from goku that even without training they raised there power a lot thanks to there adult bodies. i think 20-10x stronger is a good enough gauge. I think it very likely that Buu obtains the full power of whoever he absorbs, regardless of what transformation they were in at absorption. In the Universe 4 special Buu absorbs a SSj Vegeta but then when Vegeta is in the pod he's in base. Don't know why Buu would depower Vegeta unless it really didn't matter. In DBM, dbz base Vegetto is SSj3 tier so Ultra Good Buu is well beyond him. I think a better question is how he compares to SSj Vegetto, whether DBZ or DBM. It seems like Ultra Good Buu ended the fight weaker than Broly and so he should also be weaker than DBM SSj Vegetto. How he compares to DBZ SSj Vegetto would also depend on how much stronger Vegetto got in those twenty years, along with what his SSj multiplier is, which is confusing btw. Some possible scaling that I just came up with (please don't take the numbers too seriously): Gohan: 100 SSj3 Gotenks: 150 SSj3 Goku: 75 SSj2 Vegeta: 15 Good Buu: 10 Ultra Good Buu: 350 LSSj Broly: 200 to 500
Buuhan: 175 DBZ Vegetto: 50 DBZ SSj Vegetto: 500 huh i always thought that Base vegeito was like strong enough to handle Buuhan in his base. thanks bud
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Post by godjacob on Jun 1, 2021 18:41:51 GMT
I think it very likely that Buu obtains the full power of whoever he absorbs, regardless of what transformation they were in at absorption. In the Universe 4 special Buu absorbs a SSj Vegeta but then when Vegeta is in the pod he's in base. Don't know why Buu would depower Vegeta unless it really didn't matter. In DBM, dbz base Vegetto is SSj3 tier so Ultra Good Buu is well beyond him. I think a better question is how he compares to SSj Vegetto, whether DBZ or DBM. It seems like Ultra Good Buu ended the fight weaker than Broly and so he should also be weaker than DBM SSj Vegetto. How he compares to DBZ SSj Vegetto would also depend on how much stronger Vegetto got in those twenty years, along with what his SSj multiplier is, which is confusing btw. Some possible scaling that I just came up with (please don't take the numbers too seriously): Gohan: 100 SSj3 Gotenks: 150 SSj3 Goku: 75 SSj2 Vegeta: 15 Good Buu: 10 Ultra Good Buu: 350 LSSj Broly: 200 to 500
Buuhan: 175 DBZ Vegetto: 50 DBZ SSj Vegetto: 500 huh i always thought that Base vegeito was like strong enough to handle Buuhan in his base. thanks bud It's at best unclear. In the Manga Vegito turned SS and began to dominate Buuhan. In the anime, they included an initial fight in base form where Base Vegito seemed even with Buuhan before he transformed. So it is a matter of "Did he go SS because he needed to by some slim margin, or did he just really want to drive home the gap between them"
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Post by Dismaned on Jun 2, 2021 2:27:46 GMT
huh i always thought that Base vegeito was like strong enough to handle Buuhan in his base. thanks bud It's at best unclear. In the Manga Vegito turned SS and began to dominate Buuhan. In the anime, they included an initial fight in base form where Base Vegito seemed even with Buuhan before he transformed. So it is a matter of "Did he go SS because he needed to by some slim margin, or did he just really want to drive home the gap between them" Food for thought
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Post by Solus on Jun 2, 2021 19:00:33 GMT
I think it very likely that Buu obtains the full power of whoever he absorbs, regardless of what transformation they were in at absorption. In the Universe 4 special Buu absorbs a SSj Vegeta but then when Vegeta is in the pod he's in base. Don't know why Buu would depower Vegeta unless it really didn't matter. In DBM, dbz base Vegetto is SSj3 tier so Ultra Good Buu is well beyond him. I think a better question is how he compares to SSj Vegetto, whether DBZ or DBM. It seems like Ultra Good Buu ended the fight weaker than Broly and so he should also be weaker than DBM SSj Vegetto. How he compares to DBZ SSj Vegetto would also depend on how much stronger Vegetto got in those twenty years, along with what his SSj multiplier is, which is confusing btw. Some possible scaling that I just came up with (please don't take the numbers too seriously): Gohan: 100 SSj3 Gotenks: 150 SSj3 Goku: 75 SSj2 Vegeta: 15 Good Buu: 10 Ultra Good Buu: 350 LSSj Broly: 200 to 500
Buuhan: 175 DBZ Vegetto: 50 DBZ SSj Vegetto: 500 huh i always thought that Base vegeito was like strong enough to handle Buuhan in his base. thanks bud The anime is quite inconsistent in power scaling. In the manga, Vegetto goes SSJ instantly and was way stronger than Buu. He never took serious damage and wasn't challenged at all. But in the anime, as already mentioned, he fought Buu for a short time on equal footing. But then he turned SSj and dominated the fight. If his base was equal to Buu, then of course he should be 50 times stronger than him. But that wasn't the case. The opposite was true. In the anime, Buu actually managed to "almost break the space-time continuum" or nonsense like that and Vegetto had to give it his all to overcome that and stop Buu. That doesn't make sense at all. Where should Buu have hid all that power?
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Post by godjacob on Jun 2, 2021 19:36:14 GMT
huh i always thought that Base vegeito was like strong enough to handle Buuhan in his base. thanks bud The anime is quite inconsistent in power scaling. In the manga, Vegetto goes SSJ instantly and was way stronger than Buu. He never took serious damage and wasn't challenged at all. But in the anime, as already mentioned, he fought Buu for a short time on equal footing. But then he turned SSj and dominated the fight. If his base was equal to Buu, then of course he should be 50 times stronger than him. But that wasn't the case. The opposite was true. In the anime, Buu actually managed to "almost break the space-time continuum" or nonsense like that and Vegetto had to give it his all to overcome that and stop Buu. That doesn't make sense at all. Where should Buu have hid all that power? I mean the anime did include the scene where Super Buu tries to enter Vegito and blow him up like the gunman and Vegito resist it, and expanded on the general beating he gave Super Buu so I do think overall it kept the gap quite clear between SS Vegito and Buuhan.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 4, 2021 20:24:39 GMT
So I have a general question, didn't there used to be some power tier chart with DBM? Whatever happened to it?
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Post by Solus on Jun 5, 2021 7:58:57 GMT
The anime is quite inconsistent in power scaling. In the manga, Vegetto goes SSJ instantly and was way stronger than Buu. He never took serious damage and wasn't challenged at all. But in the anime, as already mentioned, he fought Buu for a short time on equal footing. But then he turned SSj and dominated the fight. If his base was equal to Buu, then of course he should be 50 times stronger than him. But that wasn't the case. The opposite was true. In the anime, Buu actually managed to "almost break the space-time continuum" or nonsense like that and Vegetto had to give it his all to overcome that and stop Buu. That doesn't make sense at all. Where should Buu have hid all that power? I mean the anime did include the scene where Super Buu tries to enter Vegito and blow him up like the gunman and Vegito resist it, and expanded on the general beating he gave Super Buu so I do think overall it kept the gap quite clear between SS Vegito and Buuhan. It's not like the anime didn't make clear, that Vegetto is vastly superior to Buu. But what I'm saying is, that the gap between both of them seems smaller because of the extension. They added a lot of stuff that wasn't part of the manga to lengthen the fight, but that made it seem like Vegetto had to struggle more than he actually did. And if SSJ Vegetto sometimes has to struggle against Buu, it doesn't make sense at all, that his base form could keep up with him.
What we can take away from this is, that Vegetto's base form must indeed be somewhere at SSJ3 or Mystic level as Salagir intended.
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Post by Blaze on Jun 5, 2021 9:48:21 GMT
Honestly just based on the manga, base Vegetto could be anywhere. Though it presumably has to be higher than base Gotenks, so... at least stronger than Piccolo, haha.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 5, 2021 17:14:28 GMT
I mean the anime did include the scene where Super Buu tries to enter Vegito and blow him up like the gunman and Vegito resist it, and expanded on the general beating he gave Super Buu so I do think overall it kept the gap quite clear between SS Vegito and Buuhan. It's not like the anime didn't make clear, that Vegetto is vastly superior to Buu. But what I'm saying is, that the gap between both of them seems smaller because of the extension. They added a lot of stuff that wasn't part of the manga to lengthen the fight, but that made it seem like Vegetto had to struggle more than he actually did. And if SSJ Vegetto sometimes has to struggle against Buu, it doesn't make sense at all, that his base form could keep up with him.
What we can take away from this is, that Vegetto's base form must indeed be somewhere at SSJ3 or Mystic level as Salagir intended.
Goddamn it I will forever be annoyed by Salagir for making power ups the same as power level/tier rankings. SSJ3 could mean literally anything depending on who you are talking about.
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Post by Solus on Jun 8, 2021 10:36:53 GMT
It's not like the anime didn't make clear, that Vegetto is vastly superior to Buu. But what I'm saying is, that the gap between both of them seems smaller because of the extension. They added a lot of stuff that wasn't part of the manga to lengthen the fight, but that made it seem like Vegetto had to struggle more than he actually did. And if SSJ Vegetto sometimes has to struggle against Buu, it doesn't make sense at all, that his base form could keep up with him.
What we can take away from this is, that Vegetto's base form must indeed be somewhere at SSJ3 or Mystic level as Salagir intended.
Goddamn it I will forever be annoyed by Salagir for making power ups the same as power level/tier rankings. SSJ3 could mean literally anything depending on who you are talking about. It does make sense on many levels, though. If you assume, that someone's base power has a limit and transformations have somewhat stable multiplyers, then every SSJ should be in the same ballpark (which is not true if you compare Goku on Namek and in the Cell Games). I think, if you further assume, that a minimum power level is required to trigger a transformation (which at least was never contradicted in DBZ), then you have the same starting point for everyone and via a fixed multiplyer logically the same end result. And this seems to be true for all saiyans in DB up to the introduction of the fusion. Goku and Vegeta were equal in the Cyborg saga (with Vegeta being supposedly slightly above Goku), Trunks was also in that same tier, even though a bit weaker than those two. Then in the Cell saga Vegeta and Trunks were both equal in the same transformation and Goku and Gohan were also both almost equal (with Gohan having slightly more raw power). In Buu saga, all SSJ2 were comparably strong, although having totally different training methods. Goku wasn't stronger than Vegeta, Gohan was said to be weaker than when he was eleven, yet Kaioshin admired his phantastical strength. So in SSJ2 Gohan was still significantly stronger than Dabura.
You see, it does make sense to assume, that no SSJ could beat a SSJ2 and no SSJ2 could beat a SSJ3. There is simply no precedent here. If you could reach a transformation at any low base level, why bother training at all? Imagine that Raditz could go SSJ, because he found out how and nothing else was required. Even with his Saibamen level, he would be able to match the Ginyu Force, which is slightly unbelievable. So that's it for the lower end of the spectrum. Now look in the opposite direction. If one could increase his base strength infinitely, why bother to transform at all? Imagine (and I know many fans did), Buu saga Goku would be able to defeat Cyborg level Opponents in base form. That's just stupid.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 8, 2021 17:05:31 GMT
Goddamn it I will forever be annoyed by Salagir for making power ups the same as power level/tier rankings. SSJ3 could mean literally anything depending on who you are talking about. It does make sense on many levels, though. If you assume, that someone's base power has a limit and transformations have somewhat stable multiplyers, then every SSJ should be in the same ballpark (which is not true if you compare Goku on Namek and in the Cell Games). I think, if you further assume, that a minimum power level is required to trigger a transformation (which at least was never contradicted in DBZ), then you have the same starting point for everyone and via a fixed multiplyer logically the same end result. And this seems to be true for all saiyans in DB up to the introduction of the fusion. Goku and Vegeta were equal in the Cyborg saga (with Vegeta being supposedly slightly above Goku), Trunks was also in that same tier, even though a bit weaker than those two. Then in the Cell saga Vegeta and Trunks were both equal in the same transformation and Goku and Gohan were also both almost equal (with Gohan having slightly more raw power). In Buu saga, all SSJ2 were comparably strong, although having totally different training methods. Goku wasn't stronger than Vegeta, Gohan was said to be weaker than when he was eleven, yet Kaioshin admired his phantastical strength. So in SSJ2 Gohan was still significantly stronger than Dabura.
You see, it does make sense to assume, that no SSJ could beat a SSJ2 and no SSJ2 could beat a SSJ3. There is simply no precedent here. If you could reach a transformation at any low base level, why bother training at all? Imagine that Raditz could go SSJ, because he found out how and nothing else was required. Even with his Saibamen level, he would be able to match the Ginyu Force, which is slightly unbelievable. So that's it for the lower end of the spectrum. Now look in the opposite direction. If one could increase his base strength infinitely, why bother to transform at all? Imagine (and I know many fans did), Buu saga Goku would be able to defeat Cyborg level Opponents in base form. That's just stupid.
Okay there is a lot wrong here that I gave myself a headache reading it (Not on you per say I'll make that clear, just the theories to justify this) but will try to go through it. One, as you yourself admit, there is no such thing as a limit to one's base power. The Z-Fighters in the Saiyan Saga (Krillin, Tien, Yamcha etc.) go from irrelevant to Raditz to being able to take on Raditz-tier Saibamen and win. Goku goes from needing Piccolo's help against Raditz, to strong enough to eclipse the other Z-Fighters after his training with King Kai in base. Etc. etc. I could go on but the series never once suggests there is an actual limit to one's base level of power. Also the idea of a minimum power level to awaken power levels? Different characters get different power ups at different levels. Do you think Cell Arc Gohan and Frieza Saga Goku are the same level at SS? Cause that's when each first awakened it. This goes further with Future Gohan who becomes hilariously weaker than Cell Arc Gohan when each discovered Super Saiyan. Different characters are at different initial levels when they awaken SS depending on their base power cause SS is treated as a boost of power not a level itself. Hell Vegeta needed a Majin Boost (However slim) to overcome the gap in power between SSj2 Goku and his own SSj2 so it showed they are not the exact same if anything. Except no, that is just dumb no offense. If Raditz, as he was, discovered Super Saiyan hell if we were generous and Z-Era Raditz got SSj3 (Going from 1,500 to 600,000) than congrats he doesn't even most past Frieza's second form much less Goku's SS power on Namek. If SS Goku from say GT or DBS fought SSj3 Goku from Z it would be a curb stomp in GT/DBS' favor despite them "only" being SS. The reason these transformations still matter in spite of growing one's base power is because that boost is a far greater jump than the slow (Only by comparison) grind where as stacking a 50x boost on yourself will always be useful in a setting that introduces stronger and stronger foes as its bread and butter formula.
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Post by Solus on Jun 9, 2021 9:10:35 GMT
It does make sense on many levels, though. If you assume, that someone's base power has a limit and transformations have somewhat stable multiplyers, then every SSJ should be in the same ballpark (which is not true if you compare Goku on Namek and in the Cell Games). I think, if you further assume, that a minimum power level is required to trigger a transformation (which at least was never contradicted in DBZ), then you have the same starting point for everyone and via a fixed multiplyer logically the same end result. And this seems to be true for all saiyans in DB up to the introduction of the fusion. Goku and Vegeta were equal in the Cyborg saga (with Vegeta being supposedly slightly above Goku), Trunks was also in that same tier, even though a bit weaker than those two. Then in the Cell saga Vegeta and Trunks were both equal in the same transformation and Goku and Gohan were also both almost equal (with Gohan having slightly more raw power). In Buu saga, all SSJ2 were comparably strong, although having totally different training methods. Goku wasn't stronger than Vegeta, Gohan was said to be weaker than when he was eleven, yet Kaioshin admired his phantastical strength. So in SSJ2 Gohan was still significantly stronger than Dabura.
You see, it does make sense to assume, that no SSJ could beat a SSJ2 and no SSJ2 could beat a SSJ3. There is simply no precedent here. If you could reach a transformation at any low base level, why bother training at all? Imagine that Raditz could go SSJ, because he found out how and nothing else was required. Even with his Saibamen level, he would be able to match the Ginyu Force, which is slightly unbelievable. So that's it for the lower end of the spectrum. Now look in the opposite direction. If one could increase his base strength infinitely, why bother to transform at all? Imagine (and I know many fans did), Buu saga Goku would be able to defeat Cyborg level Opponents in base form. That's just stupid.
Okay there is a lot wrong here that I gave myself a headache reading it (Not on you per say I'll make that clear, just the theories to justify this) but will try to go through it. One, as you yourself admit, there is no such thing as a limit to one's base power. The Z-Fighters in the Saiyan Saga (Krillin, Tien, Yamcha etc.) go from irrelevant to Raditz to being able to take on Raditz-tier Saibamen and win. Goku goes from needing Piccolo's help against Raditz, to strong enough to eclipse the other Z-Fighters after his training with King Kai in base. Etc. etc. I could go on but the series never once suggests there is an actual limit to one's base level of power. Also the idea of a minimum power level to awaken power levels? Different characters get different power ups at different levels. Do you think Cell Arc Gohan and Frieza Saga Goku are the same level at SS? Cause that's when each first awakened it. This goes further with Future Gohan who becomes hilariously weaker than Cell Arc Gohan when each discovered Super Saiyan. Different characters are at different initial levels when they awaken SS depending on their base power cause SS is treated as a boost of power not a level itself. Hell Vegeta needed a Majin Boost (However slim) to overcome the gap in power between SSj2 Goku and his own SSj2 so it showed they are not the exact same if anything. Except no, that is just dumb no offense. If Raditz, as he was, discovered Super Saiyan hell if we were generous and Z-Era Raditz got SSj3 (Going from 1,500 to 600,000) than congrats he doesn't even most past Frieza's second form much less Goku's SS power on Namek. If SS Goku from say GT or DBS fought SSj3 Goku from Z it would be a curb stomp in GT/DBS' favor despite them "only" being SS. The reason these transformations still matter in spite of growing one's base power is because that boost is a far greater jump than the slow (Only by comparison) grind where as stacking a 50x boost on yourself will always be useful in a setting that introduces stronger and stronger foes as its bread and butter formula. I didn't admit there was no limit in power. On the contrary, I heavily suggested there should be one. The question is not if but where. At some point one individual has reached its maximum potential and can't go further. At least that's how it works in real life. Now of course DB is fictional, but having no limits at all is a thought I can't go with. I understand, that this is the fundamental point where we disagree and thus the rest of our arguments must contradict each other.
Let's just stick with saiyans and no other races. There is no evidence of a saiyan reaching SSJ one without having a PL around Goku on Namek. You named Kid Gohan and future Gohan, but both examples are bad, because you seemingly didn't factor in their circumstances. 1. At the time, Kid Gohan reached SSJ in the HTC, we don't know how strong his base was. He clearly must have made a lot of progress since Namek, because he trained for 3 years with Goku and Piccolo (who also almost got to SSJ level in that time, even without transformation). But Gohan surely wasn't stronger than Namek Goku at the start of their training, when he reached SSJ. So comparing initial Kid Gohan's SSJ (in which he never actually had a fight) to his one year later Cell Games form isn't right. He made a lot of progress in the HTC. 2. Future Gohan. How could you know how strong he was? We have little evidence to meassure his PL. He was weaker than the future Cyborgs but stronger than Trunks. But Trunks himself was strong enough to effortlessly kill Freezer, so there can't be a point made, that Future Gohan would have been weaker than Namek Goku, when he acchieved SSJ. 3. Kid Trunks and Goten also seemed fairly strong besides being not even teens. When they fought C18 in the tournament, she seemed at least concerned, which leads to the conclusion, that they must be around SSJ Vegeta level (Cyborg saga). This all together heavily indicates, that one indeed has to be around the level of Goku on Namek to awaken the ability to transform. No one ever reached that transformation earlier. And no saiyan who has reached that level, missed the transformation. Point for Salagir's interpretation.
As I said, I really can't accept a base form growing infinitely. If only because it would then lead to serious mathematical problems, if you take transformations as fixed multiplyers instead of simple boosts.
Now I'm admitting something, that doesn't make sense in Salagir's power scaling (and also confused a lot of fans up to the point where they called Goku's SSJ a new form besides regular SSJ). If SSJ1 was indeed a fixed multiplyer as always suggested, then how come Cell Games Goku is so much stronger than Super Vegeta, who actually is one transformation above? Either Goku's base must be much higher than Vegeta's (which contradicts Goku's whole training) or his SSJ has access to more than those 50x base (which then would validate the claim, that this is indeed a new transformation. FPSSJ opposed to regular SSJ). This is indeed super confusing, if you want to make the power scaling somewhat constant. But Toriyama never cared about consistency. Everyone was exactly as strong as the plot demanded. Only Salagir wanted to create a system, where the reader could guess how strong different people could have become. I don't say he succeeded, because some of his scalings are still a bit wonky. But overall he made a good job in having a (somewhat) consistent power scaling, as opposed to DBS, where C17 is able to keep up with Goku SSJB for no reason.
Now I didn't watch DBGT, but did Goku actually got stronger than in DBZ? I mean, without SSJ4. Afaik, Goku was even weaker than in Buu saga, because he was turned into a child again. That's hard to meassure, isn't it. I don't want to talk about DBGT here, but if you bring that up to support your claim, then at least bring something up, that is true. As for DBS Goku in regular SSJ: Well, there was an explanation, why his SSJ is suddenly so much stronger compared to before BoG. In his fight against Beerus, when SSJG run out, Goku recognized, that the God ki infusion stayed within him and made him permanently stronger. That doesn't mean, that his base got stronger via training. The result might look similar to "his base grow stronger", but there is no proof it actually did. He only has now his initial base power + the boost he got from having God ki. If he was suddenly stripped off of said God ki, he might aswell fall back to his Buu saga level. That is purely speculative, of course, but everything else is, too. All the training with Whys in all of DBS was never meant to make Goku actually stronger, but to give him access to new techniques and transformations. There is a big difference.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 9, 2021 17:04:42 GMT
Okay there is a lot wrong here that I gave myself a headache reading it (Not on you per say I'll make that clear, just the theories to justify this) but will try to go through it. One, as you yourself admit, there is no such thing as a limit to one's base power. The Z-Fighters in the Saiyan Saga (Krillin, Tien, Yamcha etc.) go from irrelevant to Raditz to being able to take on Raditz-tier Saibamen and win. Goku goes from needing Piccolo's help against Raditz, to strong enough to eclipse the other Z-Fighters after his training with King Kai in base. Etc. etc. I could go on but the series never once suggests there is an actual limit to one's base level of power. Also the idea of a minimum power level to awaken power levels? Different characters get different power ups at different levels. Do you think Cell Arc Gohan and Frieza Saga Goku are the same level at SS? Cause that's when each first awakened it. This goes further with Future Gohan who becomes hilariously weaker than Cell Arc Gohan when each discovered Super Saiyan. Different characters are at different initial levels when they awaken SS depending on their base power cause SS is treated as a boost of power not a level itself. Hell Vegeta needed a Majin Boost (However slim) to overcome the gap in power between SSj2 Goku and his own SSj2 so it showed they are not the exact same if anything. Except no, that is just dumb no offense. If Raditz, as he was, discovered Super Saiyan hell if we were generous and Z-Era Raditz got SSj3 (Going from 1,500 to 600,000) than congrats he doesn't even most past Frieza's second form much less Goku's SS power on Namek. If SS Goku from say GT or DBS fought SSj3 Goku from Z it would be a curb stomp in GT/DBS' favor despite them "only" being SS. The reason these transformations still matter in spite of growing one's base power is because that boost is a far greater jump than the slow (Only by comparison) grind where as stacking a 50x boost on yourself will always be useful in a setting that introduces stronger and stronger foes as its bread and butter formula. I didn't admit there was no limit in power. On the contrary, I heavily suggested there should be one. The question is not if but where. At some point one individual has reached its maximum potential and can't go further. At least that's how it works in real life. Now of course DB is fictional, but having no limits at all is a thought I can't go with. I understand, that this is the fundamental point where we disagree and thus the rest of our arguments must contradict each other.
Let's just stick with saiyans and no other races. There is no evidence of a saiyan reaching SSJ one without having a PL around Goku on Namek. You named Kid Gohan and future Gohan, but both examples are bad, because you seemingly didn't factor in their circumstances. 1. At the time, Kid Gohan reached SSJ in the HTC, we don't know how strong his base was. He clearly must have made a lot of progress since Namek, because he trained for 3 years with Goku and Piccolo (who also almost got to SSJ level in that time, even without transformation). But Gohan surely wasn't stronger than Namek Goku at the start of their training, when he reached SSJ. So comparing initial Kid Gohan's SSJ (in which he never actually had a fight) to his one year later Cell Games form isn't right. He made a lot of progress in the HTC. 2. Future Gohan. How could you know how strong he was? We have little evidence to meassure his PL. He was weaker than the future Cyborgs but stronger than Trunks. But Trunks himself was strong enough to effortlessly kill Freezer, so there can't be a point made, that Future Gohan would have been weaker than Namek Goku, when he acchieved SSJ. 3. Kid Trunks and Goten also seemed fairly strong besides being not even teens. When they fought C18 in the tournament, she seemed at least concerned, which leads to the conclusion, that they must be around SSJ Vegeta level (Cyborg saga). This all together heavily indicates, that one indeed has to be around the level of Goku on Namek to awaken the ability to transform. No one ever reached that transformation earlier. And no saiyan who has reached that level, missed the transformation. Point for Salagir's interpretation.
As I said, I really can't accept a base form growing infinitely. If only because it would then lead to serious mathematical problems, if you take transformations as fixed multiplyers instead of simple boosts.
Now I'm admitting something, that doesn't make sense in Salagir's power scaling (and also confused a lot of fans up to the point where they called Goku's SSJ a new form besides regular SSJ). If SSJ1 was indeed a fixed multiplyer as always suggested, then how come Cell Games Goku is so much stronger than Super Vegeta, who actually is one transformation above? Either Goku's base must be much higher than Vegeta's (which contradicts Goku's whole training) or his SSJ has access to more than those 50x base (which then would validate the claim, that this is indeed a new transformation. FPSSJ opposed to regular SSJ). This is indeed super confusing, if you want to make the power scaling somewhat constant. But Toriyama never cared about consistency. Everyone was exactly as strong as the plot demanded. Only Salagir wanted to create a system, where the reader could guess how strong different people could have become. I don't say he succeeded, because some of his scalings are still a bit wonky. But overall he made a good job in having a (somewhat) consistent power scaling, as opposed to DBS, where C17 is able to keep up with Goku SSJB for no reason.
Now I didn't watch DBGT, but did Goku actually got stronger than in DBZ? I mean, without SSJ4. Afaik, Goku was even weaker than in Buu saga, because he was turned into a child again. That's hard to meassure, isn't it. I don't want to talk about DBGT here, but if you bring that up to support your claim, then at least bring something up, that is true. As for DBS Goku in regular SSJ: Well, there was an explanation, why his SSJ is suddenly so much stronger compared to before BoG. In his fight against Beerus, when SSJG run out, Goku recognized, that the God ki infusion stayed within him and made him permanently stronger. That doesn't mean, that his base got stronger via training. The result might look similar to "his base grow stronger", but there is no proof it actually did. He only has now his initial base power + the boost he got from having God ki. If he was suddenly stripped off of said God ki, he might aswell fall back to his Buu saga level. That is purely speculative, of course, but everything else is, too. All the training with Whys in all of DBS was never meant to make Goku actually stronger, but to give him access to new techniques and transformations. There is a big difference.
I mean at this point, this is not about you disagreeing with me but you disagreeing with the series. One of the core elements of Dragon Ball (DB, DBZ and even post DBZ stuff like GT & Super) is the idea that there is not fixed limit for power. That there is always a new level to climb to, a new stronger foe waiting in the wing and no limits to a new level of power you can reach. No I did factor in their circumstance, that is the entire point. The idea of Salagir's ideal that a SS could never beat a SS2 (Minus his special waifu Bra or a "freak" like Broly/Vegito) is that he made an absolute statement on something from which the core series there is no evidence of. Individual context and characters varies in power when they first unlock SS is kinda the point that it isn't a static level itself. I would argue Kid Gohan SS when he unlocks it already is not the same tier as Goku on Namek; considering he was able to spar with his father, who even at the start of the arc had already increased his SS to wild levels compared to Namek (Able to deflect around Future Trunks SS sword strikes, with a finger) and knocked down Android 20 in his base post 3 years training. But again, Gohan not being on the exact level of his father on Namek when he unlocked SS is the point, there is no minimum power limit you must cross. Future Trunks when he first unlocked SS was not at the level to slice up Mecha Frieza, he unlocked it during his training with Future Gohan in the manga and Future Gohan we don't see turn into a SS he just is one, and could've been for some time. The point was more comparing adult Future Gohan SS to his Teen self with the teen's being more impressive despite them being the same person. I would for damn sure argue and untrained child Goten unlocking the form by crying from Chi-Chi is not quite on Frieza level, especially when he lacked training from Gohan or his fight with Trunks yet. Goten being a SS but not even knowing how to fly shows he could achieve the state easily but is not the same warrior namek Goku was. And we know where is a slight gap in power between him and Trunks (Hence him lowering himself for fusion to work) so the most you can say is their initial power unlocking SS the first time is unclear. I could mention U6 Saiyans here who didn't know of SS and never reached it on their own in spite of being much much stronger than the initial PL limit to cross into the form. Not even on accident like Goten. Point is individual SS characters vary in power and there is no concrete "they are limited to X" power even implied by the series due to these individual variables and unknowns. SS is a state of emotion & mind, then getting to PL "X" and unlocking it like an achievement. I mean, authors don't look at characters as math equations. They are simply thinking "what would be exciting!" and go from there, they do not have a number crunch calculator next to them when they write scenes. It is a story, and if new big bads or foes are stronger than before to raise tension, so to does the base and general power of the heroes to meet it. Okay. Well in the beginning of GT we see Adult Base Goku trading blows with a trained Uub (Someone with a Kid Buu level potential being his reincarnation) in an intense spar that destroys much of the training area in the Lookout. Later on Child Goku (Who is weaker than GT Base Adult Goku) comments on General Rilldo being stronger than Majin Buu who Goku had been able to keep up with to that point in his base power. He also smacked around as a base child SS adult Gohan and Goten like a couple of punks, as well as being able to survive Super 17 (Who had just powered up off Majuub, Son Goten, Son Gohan, Trunks & Vegeta) for early exchanges in his SS form. He is able to deflect/survive an OMEGA SHENRON death ball in his fatigued base form etc. A bit hard to imagine Goku falling back to "Buu Saga level" without God Ki when other characters in Super are already eclipsed past their Z selves. Krillin, Piccolo, Roshi and more notably Gohan and 17 all train and rise up the power ranks, where as God Base Goku/Vegeta reached a point where they could spank Z Gotenks in their base form and yet to varied degrees all of them can "keep up", some weaker like Roshi but no longer considered pure fodder to Z-era foes, Krillin similar. Guys like 17 & Gohan able to push Goku past his base power altogether etc. Vegeta even comments, both in the Super anime and manga, at a Saiyan's ability to evolve in power allowing his earlier useless SSB to rise up and be able to momentarily surprise Jiren. Should I even mention Frieza, whose training from hell allowed his first form to effortlessly kill a Buu Saga era Piccolo and put holes in adult SS Gohan. Whose final form was matched by Goku's base before each changed to Blue/Golden respectfully.
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Post by Solus on Jun 9, 2021 18:51:49 GMT
I didn't admit there was no limit in power. On the contrary, I heavily suggested there should be one. The question is not if but where. At some point one individual has reached its maximum potential and can't go further. At least that's how it works in real life. Now of course DB is fictional, but having no limits at all is a thought I can't go with. I understand, that this is the fundamental point where we disagree and thus the rest of our arguments must contradict each other.
Let's just stick with saiyans and no other races. There is no evidence of a saiyan reaching SSJ one without having a PL around Goku on Namek. You named Kid Gohan and future Gohan, but both examples are bad, because you seemingly didn't factor in their circumstances. 1. At the time, Kid Gohan reached SSJ in the HTC, we don't know how strong his base was. He clearly must have made a lot of progress since Namek, because he trained for 3 years with Goku and Piccolo (who also almost got to SSJ level in that time, even without transformation). But Gohan surely wasn't stronger than Namek Goku at the start of their training, when he reached SSJ. So comparing initial Kid Gohan's SSJ (in which he never actually had a fight) to his one year later Cell Games form isn't right. He made a lot of progress in the HTC. 2. Future Gohan. How could you know how strong he was? We have little evidence to meassure his PL. He was weaker than the future Cyborgs but stronger than Trunks. But Trunks himself was strong enough to effortlessly kill Freezer, so there can't be a point made, that Future Gohan would have been weaker than Namek Goku, when he acchieved SSJ. 3. Kid Trunks and Goten also seemed fairly strong besides being not even teens. When they fought C18 in the tournament, she seemed at least concerned, which leads to the conclusion, that they must be around SSJ Vegeta level (Cyborg saga). This all together heavily indicates, that one indeed has to be around the level of Goku on Namek to awaken the ability to transform. No one ever reached that transformation earlier. And no saiyan who has reached that level, missed the transformation. Point for Salagir's interpretation.
As I said, I really can't accept a base form growing infinitely. If only because it would then lead to serious mathematical problems, if you take transformations as fixed multiplyers instead of simple boosts.
Now I'm admitting something, that doesn't make sense in Salagir's power scaling (and also confused a lot of fans up to the point where they called Goku's SSJ a new form besides regular SSJ). If SSJ1 was indeed a fixed multiplyer as always suggested, then how come Cell Games Goku is so much stronger than Super Vegeta, who actually is one transformation above? Either Goku's base must be much higher than Vegeta's (which contradicts Goku's whole training) or his SSJ has access to more than those 50x base (which then would validate the claim, that this is indeed a new transformation. FPSSJ opposed to regular SSJ). This is indeed super confusing, if you want to make the power scaling somewhat constant. But Toriyama never cared about consistency. Everyone was exactly as strong as the plot demanded. Only Salagir wanted to create a system, where the reader could guess how strong different people could have become. I don't say he succeeded, because some of his scalings are still a bit wonky. But overall he made a good job in having a (somewhat) consistent power scaling, as opposed to DBS, where C17 is able to keep up with Goku SSJB for no reason.
Now I didn't watch DBGT, but did Goku actually got stronger than in DBZ? I mean, without SSJ4. Afaik, Goku was even weaker than in Buu saga, because he was turned into a child again. That's hard to meassure, isn't it. I don't want to talk about DBGT here, but if you bring that up to support your claim, then at least bring something up, that is true. As for DBS Goku in regular SSJ: Well, there was an explanation, why his SSJ is suddenly so much stronger compared to before BoG. In his fight against Beerus, when SSJG run out, Goku recognized, that the God ki infusion stayed within him and made him permanently stronger. That doesn't mean, that his base got stronger via training. The result might look similar to "his base grow stronger", but there is no proof it actually did. He only has now his initial base power + the boost he got from having God ki. If he was suddenly stripped off of said God ki, he might aswell fall back to his Buu saga level. That is purely speculative, of course, but everything else is, too. All the training with Whys in all of DBS was never meant to make Goku actually stronger, but to give him access to new techniques and transformations. There is a big difference.
I mean at this point, this is not about you disagreeing with me but you disagreeing with the series. One of the core elements of Dragon Ball (DB, DBZ and even post DBZ stuff like GT & Super) is the idea that there is not fixed limit for power. That there is always a new level to climb to, a new stronger foe waiting in the wing and no limits to a new level of power you can reach. No I did factor in their circumstance, that is the entire point. The idea of Salagir's ideal that a SS could never beat a SS2 (Minus his special waifu Bra or a "freak" like Broly/Vegito) is that he made an absolute statement on something from which the core series there is no evidence of. Individual context and characters varies in power when they first unlock SS is kinda the point that it isn't a static level itself. I would argue Kid Gohan SS when he unlocks it already is not the same tier as Goku on Namek; considering he was able to spar with his father, who even at the start of the arc had already increased his SS to wild levels compared to Namek (Able to deflect around Future Trunks SS sword strikes, with a finger) and knocked down Android 20 in his base post 3 years training. But again, Gohan not being on the exact level of his father on Namek when he unlocked SS is the point, there is no minimum power limit you must cross. Future Trunks when he first unlocked SS was not at the level to slice up Mecha Frieza, he unlocked it during his training with Future Gohan in the manga and Future Gohan we don't see turn into a SS he just is one, and could've been for some time. The point was more comparing adult Future Gohan SS to his Teen self with the teen's being more impressive despite them being the same person. I would for damn sure argue and untrained child Goten unlocking the form by crying from Chi-Chi is not quite on Frieza level, especially when he lacked training from Gohan or his fight with Trunks yet. Goten being a SS but not even knowing how to fly shows he could achieve the state easily but is not the same warrior namek Goku was. And we know where is a slight gap in power between him and Trunks (Hence him lowering himself for fusion to work) so the most you can say is their initial power unlocking SS the first time is unclear. I could mention U6 Saiyans here who didn't know of SS and never reached it on their own in spite of being much much stronger than the initial PL limit to cross into the form. Not even on accident like Goten. Point is individual SS characters vary in power and there is no concrete "they are limited to X" power even implied by the series due to these individual variables and unknowns. SS is a state of emotion & mind, then getting to PL "X" and unlocking it like an achievement. I mean, authors don't look at characters as math equations. They are simply thinking "what would be exciting!" and go from there, they do not have a number crunch calculator next to them when they write scenes. It is a story, and if new big bads or foes are stronger than before to raise tension, so to does the base and general power of the heroes to meet it. Okay. Well in the beginning of GT we see Adult Base Goku trading blows with a trained Uub (Someone with a Kid Buu level potential being his reincarnation) in an intense spar that destroys much of the training area in the Lookout. Later on Child Goku (Who is weaker than GT Base Adult Goku) comments on General Rilldo being stronger than Majin Buu who Goku had been able to keep up with to that point in his base power. He also smacked around as a base child SS adult Gohan and Goten like a couple of punks, as well as being able to survive Super 17 (Who had just powered up off Majuub, Son Goten, Son Gohan, Trunks & Vegeta) for early exchanges in his SS form. He is able to deflect/survive an OMEGA SHENRON death ball in his fatigued base form etc. A bit hard to imagine Goku falling back to "Buu Saga level" without God Ki when other characters in Super are already eclipsed past their Z selves. Krillin, Piccolo, Roshi and more notably Gohan and 17 all train and rise up the power ranks, where as God Base Goku/Vegeta reached a point where they could spank Z Gotenks in their base form and yet to varied degrees all of them can "keep up", some weaker like Roshi but no longer considered pure fodder to Z-era foes, Krillin similar. Guys like 17 & Gohan able to push Goku past his base power altogether etc. Vegeta even comments, both in the Super anime and manga, at a Saiyan's ability to evolve in power allowing his earlier useless SSB to rise up and be able to momentarily surprise Jiren. Should I even mention Frieza, whose training from hell allowed his first form to effortlessly kill a Buu Saga era Piccolo and put holes in adult SS Gohan. Whose final form was matched by Goku's base before each changed to Blue/Golden respectfully. Ok, I'll admit that I really have no clue about DBGT. And let's not talk about DBS, since the power scaling there doesn't make sense at all.
I'm not disagreeing with the source material (which is only DBZ), but with your interpretation of the source material. You think, that there is no limit, because they always overcome any restrictions they had. Yet you absolutely overlook, that no one in the Buu saga made any progress via regular training any more, except for the kids who haven't reached their limit yet. Neither Goku nor Vegeta had indicated, that they could become stronger than what they were at that moment. Of course, why wouldn't they, you say? They always got stronger via training. And that's the point: They didn't. After Namek, the saiyans didn't improve their base power at all, because they only relied on transformations and getting the most out of them. While I understand that you believe, they must have increased their base power as well, you have to accept, that I just don't believe that, since there is simply no indication for that. After Namek, only once was a saiyan seen to fight untransformed and that was Vegeta in Buu saga against some fodder enemy.
Also you completely disregard the facts I brought to you about every saiyan reaching a certain pl before unlocking SSJ. You simply went over them and claimed they weren't true, as if it wasn't presented that way in the manga.
I don't feel like this has any merrit, since the source material doesn't proof either of our points. So we cannot do anything besides arguing who's head canon makes more sense, which is kind of pointless.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 9, 2021 19:06:53 GMT
I mean at this point, this is not about you disagreeing with me but you disagreeing with the series. One of the core elements of Dragon Ball (DB, DBZ and even post DBZ stuff like GT & Super) is the idea that there is not fixed limit for power. That there is always a new level to climb to, a new stronger foe waiting in the wing and no limits to a new level of power you can reach. No I did factor in their circumstance, that is the entire point. The idea of Salagir's ideal that a SS could never beat a SS2 (Minus his special waifu Bra or a "freak" like Broly/Vegito) is that he made an absolute statement on something from which the core series there is no evidence of. Individual context and characters varies in power when they first unlock SS is kinda the point that it isn't a static level itself. I would argue Kid Gohan SS when he unlocks it already is not the same tier as Goku on Namek; considering he was able to spar with his father, who even at the start of the arc had already increased his SS to wild levels compared to Namek (Able to deflect around Future Trunks SS sword strikes, with a finger) and knocked down Android 20 in his base post 3 years training. But again, Gohan not being on the exact level of his father on Namek when he unlocked SS is the point, there is no minimum power limit you must cross. Future Trunks when he first unlocked SS was not at the level to slice up Mecha Frieza, he unlocked it during his training with Future Gohan in the manga and Future Gohan we don't see turn into a SS he just is one, and could've been for some time. The point was more comparing adult Future Gohan SS to his Teen self with the teen's being more impressive despite them being the same person. I would for damn sure argue and untrained child Goten unlocking the form by crying from Chi-Chi is not quite on Frieza level, especially when he lacked training from Gohan or his fight with Trunks yet. Goten being a SS but not even knowing how to fly shows he could achieve the state easily but is not the same warrior namek Goku was. And we know where is a slight gap in power between him and Trunks (Hence him lowering himself for fusion to work) so the most you can say is their initial power unlocking SS the first time is unclear. I could mention U6 Saiyans here who didn't know of SS and never reached it on their own in spite of being much much stronger than the initial PL limit to cross into the form. Not even on accident like Goten. Point is individual SS characters vary in power and there is no concrete "they are limited to X" power even implied by the series due to these individual variables and unknowns. SS is a state of emotion & mind, then getting to PL "X" and unlocking it like an achievement. I mean, authors don't look at characters as math equations. They are simply thinking "what would be exciting!" and go from there, they do not have a number crunch calculator next to them when they write scenes. It is a story, and if new big bads or foes are stronger than before to raise tension, so to does the base and general power of the heroes to meet it. Okay. Well in the beginning of GT we see Adult Base Goku trading blows with a trained Uub (Someone with a Kid Buu level potential being his reincarnation) in an intense spar that destroys much of the training area in the Lookout. Later on Child Goku (Who is weaker than GT Base Adult Goku) comments on General Rilldo being stronger than Majin Buu who Goku had been able to keep up with to that point in his base power. He also smacked around as a base child SS adult Gohan and Goten like a couple of punks, as well as being able to survive Super 17 (Who had just powered up off Majuub, Son Goten, Son Gohan, Trunks & Vegeta) for early exchanges in his SS form. He is able to deflect/survive an OMEGA SHENRON death ball in his fatigued base form etc. A bit hard to imagine Goku falling back to "Buu Saga level" without God Ki when other characters in Super are already eclipsed past their Z selves. Krillin, Piccolo, Roshi and more notably Gohan and 17 all train and rise up the power ranks, where as God Base Goku/Vegeta reached a point where they could spank Z Gotenks in their base form and yet to varied degrees all of them can "keep up", some weaker like Roshi but no longer considered pure fodder to Z-era foes, Krillin similar. Guys like 17 & Gohan able to push Goku past his base power altogether etc. Vegeta even comments, both in the Super anime and manga, at a Saiyan's ability to evolve in power allowing his earlier useless SSB to rise up and be able to momentarily surprise Jiren. Should I even mention Frieza, whose training from hell allowed his first form to effortlessly kill a Buu Saga era Piccolo and put holes in adult SS Gohan. Whose final form was matched by Goku's base before each changed to Blue/Golden respectfully. Ok, I'll admit that I really have no clue about DBGT. And let's not talk about DBS, since the power scaling there doesn't make sense at all.
I'm not disagreeing with the source material (which is only DBZ), but with your interpretation of the source material. You think, that there is no limit, because they always overcome any restrictions they had. Yet you absolutely overlook, that no one in the Buu saga made any progress via regular training any more, except for the kids who haven't reached their limit yet. Neither Goku nor Vegeta had indicated, that they could become stronger than what they were at that moment. Of course, why wouldn't they, you say? They always got stronger via training. And that's the point: They didn't. After Namek, the saiyans didn't improve their base power at all, because they only relied on transformations and getting the most out of them. While I understand that you believe, they must have increased their base power as well, you have to accept, that I just don't believe that, since there is simply no indication for that. After Namek, only once was a saiyan seen to fight untransformed and that was Vegeta in Buu saga against some fodder enemy.
Also you completely disregard the facts I brought to you about every saiyan reaching a certain pl before unlocking SSJ. You simply went over them and claimed they weren't true, as if it wasn't presented that way in the manga.
I don't feel like this has any merrit, since the source material doesn't proof either of our points. So we cannot do anything besides arguing who's head canon makes more sense, which is kind of pointless.
I mean, power scaling hasn't made much sense since Goku drank the Ultra Divine Water against King Piccolo. Roshi could blow up a moon, but King Piccolo blowing up a city is impressive. Goku's zenkai putting him from above Ginyu to competing with Frieza, in stark contrast to Vegeta's zenkais etc. Power scaling has never been consistent in this franchise, cause Toriyama doesn't think long term, writing very much by the seat of his pants. I mean, I feel this is just false. Goku and Vegeta both surpass Gohan in the Buu Saga, in part because they kept training and Gohan slacked off. Goku unlocked SSj3 through traditional training, Vegeta got SSj2 via training and both increased to be above Gohan's base etc. This was a plot point in the Buu Saga even, with Vegeta lamenting that Gohan had not improved but rather got weaker since he was a child against Cell. Saying they didn't upgrade base power since Namek is objectively false, hell Goku improved between Namek and his return on Earth due to his training on the Yadrat world and upping his base and consequently his SS boost was much higher (This is before they learn to upgrade their SS forms mind you). Piccolo increased his base form from weaker than third form Frieza to being able to dominate Doctor Gero as an android. It's not a matter of me not believing their base power increased, it is simply we are visibly shown it improves and the general power they have from arc to arc and you seem to disregard this. I didn't disregard it, I pointed out each Saiyan reached SS at different levels, sometimes in spite of being the same person (Gohan vs. Future Gohan) and each SS is a different level showing there is no static universe SS tier power. And also mentioned that SS was a power up obtained through feeling/emotion rather than hitting a certain PL, a concept the manga all but spells out. Indeed, a lot of this just debating the details and complicities of given power growth that Toriyama never thought much of himself. The only time Toriyama mentioned PL was to make fun of the idea in the Namek Saga, despite the series itself falling into "the new bad guy has such a stronger power than anything seen before!" formula.
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Post by Solus on Jun 11, 2021 7:01:24 GMT
Ok, I'll admit that I really have no clue about DBGT. And let's not talk about DBS, since the power scaling there doesn't make sense at all.
I'm not disagreeing with the source material (which is only DBZ), but with your interpretation of the source material. You think, that there is no limit, because they always overcome any restrictions they had. Yet you absolutely overlook, that no one in the Buu saga made any progress via regular training any more, except for the kids who haven't reached their limit yet. Neither Goku nor Vegeta had indicated, that they could become stronger than what they were at that moment. Of course, why wouldn't they, you say? They always got stronger via training. And that's the point: They didn't. After Namek, the saiyans didn't improve their base power at all, because they only relied on transformations and getting the most out of them. While I understand that you believe, they must have increased their base power as well, you have to accept, that I just don't believe that, since there is simply no indication for that. After Namek, only once was a saiyan seen to fight untransformed and that was Vegeta in Buu saga against some fodder enemy.
Also you completely disregard the facts I brought to you about every saiyan reaching a certain pl before unlocking SSJ. You simply went over them and claimed they weren't true, as if it wasn't presented that way in the manga.
I don't feel like this has any merrit, since the source material doesn't proof either of our points. So we cannot do anything besides arguing who's head canon makes more sense, which is kind of pointless.
I mean, power scaling hasn't made much sense since Goku drank the Ultra Divine Water against King Piccolo. Roshi could blow up a moon, but King Piccolo blowing up a city is impressive. Goku's zenkai putting him from above Ginyu to competing with Frieza, in stark contrast to Vegeta's zenkais etc. Power scaling has never been consistent in this franchise, cause Toriyama doesn't think long term, writing very much by the seat of his pants. I mean, I feel this is just false. Goku and Vegeta both surpass Gohan in the Buu Saga, in part because they kept training and Gohan slacked off. Goku unlocked SSj3 through traditional training, Vegeta got SSj2 via training and both increased to be above Gohan's base etc. This was a plot point in the Buu Saga even, with Vegeta lamenting that Gohan had not improved but rather got weaker since he was a child against Cell. Saying they didn't upgrade base power since Namek is objectively false, hell Goku improved between Namek and his return on Earth due to his training on the Yadrat world and upping his base and consequently his SS boost was much higher (This is before they learn to upgrade their SS forms mind you). Piccolo increased his base form from weaker than third form Frieza to being able to dominate Doctor Gero as an android. It's not a matter of me not believing their base power increased, it is simply we are visibly shown it improves and the general power they have from arc to arc and you seem to disregard this. I didn't disregard it, I pointed out each Saiyan reached SS at different levels, sometimes in spite of being the same person (Gohan vs. Future Gohan) and each SS is a different level showing there is no static universe SS tier power. And also mentioned that SS was a power up obtained through feeling/emotion rather than hitting a certain PL, a concept the manga all but spells out. Indeed, a lot of this just debating the details and complicities of given power growth that Toriyama never thought much of himself. The only time Toriyama mentioned PL was to make fun of the idea in the Namek Saga, despite the series itself falling into "the new bad guy has such a stronger power than anything seen before!" formula. You are very civil in this discussion and I really appreciate that. That's the only reason why I bother to answer at all, because actually this seems to be pointless. But here we go again.
"Goku and Vegeta both surpass Gohan in the Buu Saga" Of course they did. While Gohan was only 11 years old when fighting against Cell and also discovered a transformation both Vegeta and Goku had no access to, they closed the gap via attaining that transformation and getting used of it for 7 years (or less, depending on when they reached that level). That doesn't indicate by any means, that their base power has increased at all. It just shows, that they now have access to a higher multiplyer for their (in my oppinion) constant base. Of course that makes them stronger in the end.
"Goku improved between Namek and his return on Earth" How would you know? Because his SSJ was stronger now? That would only be an indicator IF we assume that SSJ is a fixed multiplyer. But do we do that? How would we then explain Goku's FPSSJ? As we both stated several times: Toriyama didn't think this through and we are now trying to make sense out of it. Your interpretation delivers a pretty simple solution: Transformations are a fixed multiplyer and a person growing stronger consequently means, their base has risen. And many fans seem to accept it. That's fine by me, but I don't, since it makes the progression for other characters, who don't have access to transformations, impossible. If a saiyan increases his base power by a factor of 2 and adds SSJ onto it, he suddenly is 100 times stronger than before. Compare that to a non saiyan, who increases his base power by the factor of 3 or even 10. This character made a way greater progress than the saiyan, yet is absolutely weak in comparison. That is what doesn't feel right.
"Piccolo increased his base form" Piccolo wasn't part of the discussion, as he is no saiyan and has no transformation. His base is his highest. And I never claimed that every race or character has the same limits. But Piccolo obviously hit his limit after Cell saga, or otherwise he would have competed in the Buu saga, which he didn't. Why would he stop training if he had the means to become stronger? So Piccolo's limit > Goku's limit in base.
"I pointed out each Saiyan reached SS at different levels" Which you didn't. I know that you see it that way, but I just can't understand why. As I said before, everyone who reached SSJ did so for the first time, when their PL was comparable to Goku on Namek. Every single one! That doesn't mean, that it couldn't be different, but there is just no evidence of any saiyan who reached that level at a weaker PL than Goku on Namek (and by weaker I mean considerably weaker, not within a range of +/- 10 %). I've already explained, why I think that all the initial SSJ were comparable in power and you did nothing to debunk that. I mean, we both know that Toriyama came up with SSJ and then thought, that now everyone has to get it. But at that time everyone allready was around Goku's base level on Namek, so it was no problem.
"SS was a power up obtained through feeling/emotion rather than hitting a certain PL" NO!!! Simply no. It needs both. Manga makes it clear, that for the first transformation you have to be super enraged. But do you really want to tell me, that Goku never was as enraged as on Namek before? What about Vegeta? His fight on earth against Goku shows several moments where he is truly out of his mind and blind of rage. On Namek there are many occasions, where he is super enraged as well. Don't you think, all that wrath would be enough to give access to SSJ, if that was everything that was needed? Also, do you think, that no saiyan ever was as enraged as Goku on Namek, when Kuririn died? Not a single one in all of saiyan history? And also, do you think, when Goten and Trunks hit SSJ, that those little shitty kids, who lived protected lives without any major inconveniences, had any feeling comparable to Goku loosing his best friend? They reached SSJ because their PL was already that high and all it needed was a little rage.
Now I don't claim, that your theory is wrong. Just to be clear, what we are discussing. The manga doesn't answer this question. But you present your oppinion as if the manga would support it, which it simply doesn't. There is neither evidence for your theory, nor for mine.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 11, 2021 17:06:12 GMT
I mean, power scaling hasn't made much sense since Goku drank the Ultra Divine Water against King Piccolo. Roshi could blow up a moon, but King Piccolo blowing up a city is impressive. Goku's zenkai putting him from above Ginyu to competing with Frieza, in stark contrast to Vegeta's zenkais etc. Power scaling has never been consistent in this franchise, cause Toriyama doesn't think long term, writing very much by the seat of his pants. I mean, I feel this is just false. Goku and Vegeta both surpass Gohan in the Buu Saga, in part because they kept training and Gohan slacked off. Goku unlocked SSj3 through traditional training, Vegeta got SSj2 via training and both increased to be above Gohan's base etc. This was a plot point in the Buu Saga even, with Vegeta lamenting that Gohan had not improved but rather got weaker since he was a child against Cell. Saying they didn't upgrade base power since Namek is objectively false, hell Goku improved between Namek and his return on Earth due to his training on the Yadrat world and upping his base and consequently his SS boost was much higher (This is before they learn to upgrade their SS forms mind you). Piccolo increased his base form from weaker than third form Frieza to being able to dominate Doctor Gero as an android. It's not a matter of me not believing their base power increased, it is simply we are visibly shown it improves and the general power they have from arc to arc and you seem to disregard this. I didn't disregard it, I pointed out each Saiyan reached SS at different levels, sometimes in spite of being the same person (Gohan vs. Future Gohan) and each SS is a different level showing there is no static universe SS tier power. And also mentioned that SS was a power up obtained through feeling/emotion rather than hitting a certain PL, a concept the manga all but spells out. Indeed, a lot of this just debating the details and complicities of given power growth that Toriyama never thought much of himself. The only time Toriyama mentioned PL was to make fun of the idea in the Namek Saga, despite the series itself falling into "the new bad guy has such a stronger power than anything seen before!" formula. You are very civil in this discussion and I really appreciate that. That's the only reason why I bother to answer at all, because actually this seems to be pointless. But here we go again.
"Goku and Vegeta both surpass Gohan in the Buu Saga" Of course they did. While Gohan was only 11 years old when fighting against Cell and also discovered a transformation both Vegeta and Goku had no access to, they closed the gap via attaining that transformation and getting used of it for 7 years (or less, depending on when they reached that level). That doesn't indicate by any means, that their base power has increased at all. It just shows, that they now have access to a higher multiplyer for their (in my oppinion) constant base. Of course that makes them stronger in the end.
"Goku improved between Namek and his return on Earth" How would you know? Because his SSJ was stronger now? That would only be an indicator IF we assume that SSJ is a fixed multiplyer. But do we do that? How would we then explain Goku's FPSSJ? As we both stated several times: Toriyama didn't think this through and we are now trying to make sense out of it. Your interpretation delivers a pretty simple solution: Transformations are a fixed multiplyer and a person growing stronger consequently means, their base has risen. And many fans seem to accept it. That's fine by me, but I don't, since it makes the progression for other characters, who don't have access to transformations, impossible. If a saiyan increases his base power by a factor of 2 and adds SSJ onto it, he suddenly is 100 times stronger than before. Compare that to a non saiyan, who increases his base power by the factor of 3 or even 10. This character made a way greater progress than the saiyan, yet is absolutely weak in comparison. That is what doesn't feel right.
"Piccolo increased his base form" Piccolo wasn't part of the discussion, as he is no saiyan and has no transformation. His base is his highest. And I never claimed that every race or character has the same limits. But Piccolo obviously hit his limit after Cell saga, or otherwise he would have competed in the Buu saga, which he didn't. Why would he stop training if he had the means to become stronger? So Piccolo's limit > Goku's limit in base.
"I pointed out each Saiyan reached SS at different levels" Which you didn't. I know that you see it that way, but I just can't understand why. As I said before, everyone who reached SSJ did so for the first time, when their PL was comparable to Goku on Namek. Every single one! That doesn't mean, that it couldn't be different, but there is just no evidence of any saiyan who reached that level at a weaker PL than Goku on Namek (and by weaker I mean considerably weaker, not within a range of +/- 10 %). I've already explained, why I think that all the initial SSJ were comparable in power and you did nothing to debunk that. I mean, we both know that Toriyama came up with SSJ and then thought, that now everyone has to get it. But at that time everyone allready was around Goku's base level on Namek, so it was no problem.
"SS was a power up obtained through feeling/emotion rather than hitting a certain PL" NO!!! Simply no. It needs both. Manga makes it clear, that for the first transformation you have to be super enraged. But do you really want to tell me, that Goku never was as enraged as on Namek before? What about Vegeta? His fight on earth against Goku shows several moments where he is truly out of his mind and blind of rage. On Namek there are many occasions, where he is super enraged as well. Don't you think, all that wrath would be enough to give access to SSJ, if that was everything that was needed? Also, do you think, that no saiyan ever was as enraged as Goku on Namek, when Kuririn died? Not a single one in all of saiyan history? And also, do you think, when Goten and Trunks hit SSJ, that those little shitty kids, who lived protected lives without any major inconveniences, had any feeling comparable to Goku loosing his best friend? They reached SSJ because their PL was already that high and all it needed was a little rage.
Now I don't claim, that your theory is wrong. Just to be clear, what we are discussing. The manga doesn't answer this question. But you present your oppinion as if the manga would support it, which it simply doesn't. There is neither evidence for your theory, nor for mine.
You have also been respectful during this, and I respect that, and because of that and in spite of how I disagree with the points you've laid out I will save us both a headache and just put a stop to this here. Since we are not convincing each other away from our views and this could really go on forever. Still, enjoyed the debate in spite of our disagreements.
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Post by Solus on Jun 12, 2021 8:20:44 GMT
You are very civil in this discussion and I really appreciate that. That's the only reason why I bother to answer at all, because actually this seems to be pointless. But here we go again.
"Goku and Vegeta both surpass Gohan in the Buu Saga" Of course they did. While Gohan was only 11 years old when fighting against Cell and also discovered a transformation both Vegeta and Goku had no access to, they closed the gap via attaining that transformation and getting used of it for 7 years (or less, depending on when they reached that level). That doesn't indicate by any means, that their base power has increased at all. It just shows, that they now have access to a higher multiplyer for their (in my oppinion) constant base. Of course that makes them stronger in the end.
"Goku improved between Namek and his return on Earth" How would you know? Because his SSJ was stronger now? That would only be an indicator IF we assume that SSJ is a fixed multiplyer. But do we do that? How would we then explain Goku's FPSSJ? As we both stated several times: Toriyama didn't think this through and we are now trying to make sense out of it. Your interpretation delivers a pretty simple solution: Transformations are a fixed multiplyer and a person growing stronger consequently means, their base has risen. And many fans seem to accept it. That's fine by me, but I don't, since it makes the progression for other characters, who don't have access to transformations, impossible. If a saiyan increases his base power by a factor of 2 and adds SSJ onto it, he suddenly is 100 times stronger than before. Compare that to a non saiyan, who increases his base power by the factor of 3 or even 10. This character made a way greater progress than the saiyan, yet is absolutely weak in comparison. That is what doesn't feel right.
"Piccolo increased his base form" Piccolo wasn't part of the discussion, as he is no saiyan and has no transformation. His base is his highest. And I never claimed that every race or character has the same limits. But Piccolo obviously hit his limit after Cell saga, or otherwise he would have competed in the Buu saga, which he didn't. Why would he stop training if he had the means to become stronger? So Piccolo's limit > Goku's limit in base.
"I pointed out each Saiyan reached SS at different levels" Which you didn't. I know that you see it that way, but I just can't understand why. As I said before, everyone who reached SSJ did so for the first time, when their PL was comparable to Goku on Namek. Every single one! That doesn't mean, that it couldn't be different, but there is just no evidence of any saiyan who reached that level at a weaker PL than Goku on Namek (and by weaker I mean considerably weaker, not within a range of +/- 10 %). I've already explained, why I think that all the initial SSJ were comparable in power and you did nothing to debunk that. I mean, we both know that Toriyama came up with SSJ and then thought, that now everyone has to get it. But at that time everyone allready was around Goku's base level on Namek, so it was no problem.
"SS was a power up obtained through feeling/emotion rather than hitting a certain PL" NO!!! Simply no. It needs both. Manga makes it clear, that for the first transformation you have to be super enraged. But do you really want to tell me, that Goku never was as enraged as on Namek before? What about Vegeta? His fight on earth against Goku shows several moments where he is truly out of his mind and blind of rage. On Namek there are many occasions, where he is super enraged as well. Don't you think, all that wrath would be enough to give access to SSJ, if that was everything that was needed? Also, do you think, that no saiyan ever was as enraged as Goku on Namek, when Kuririn died? Not a single one in all of saiyan history? And also, do you think, when Goten and Trunks hit SSJ, that those little shitty kids, who lived protected lives without any major inconveniences, had any feeling comparable to Goku loosing his best friend? They reached SSJ because their PL was already that high and all it needed was a little rage.
Now I don't claim, that your theory is wrong. Just to be clear, what we are discussing. The manga doesn't answer this question. But you present your oppinion as if the manga would support it, which it simply doesn't. There is neither evidence for your theory, nor for mine.
You have also been respectful during this, and I respect that, and because of that and in spite of how I disagree with the points you've laid out I will save us both a headache and just put a stop to this here. Since we are not convincing each other away from our views and this could really go on forever. Still, enjoyed the debate in spite of our disagreements. See, this is why I like this forum way better than the main page comment section. I'm looking forward to the next discussion.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 12, 2021 17:10:05 GMT
You have also been respectful during this, and I respect that, and because of that and in spite of how I disagree with the points you've laid out I will save us both a headache and just put a stop to this here. Since we are not convincing each other away from our views and this could really go on forever. Still, enjoyed the debate in spite of our disagreements. See, this is why I like this forum way better than the main page comment section. I'm looking forward to the next discussion. Agreed. Now if someone could kindly explained what happened to that old Power Tier Chart DBM used to have that would be great lol
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