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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 13, 2017 5:46:22 GMT
So Future Trunks' telling of the story may lead us to believe that, this was the first time that Bulma sent him back in time to try to create a new timeline where the Androids don't succeed. The thing is that Cell's story contradicts that. In Future Trunks' story, he says Goku defeated Frieza and Cold in his timeline, yet in Cell's story he says that Future Trunks defeats them. For Cell's story to be true that would mean that Bulma from multiple Future timelines sent Future Trunks back to try to create an Android free timeline. And ya know our Future Trunks wouldn't even need to know that he wasn't from the first timeline to attempt that. Future Bulma and Future Gohan could just hide that fact from him and he'd be none the wiser.
Cell had to have been from a timeline where Future Trunks went back and even with the information he told Goku and that Piccolo overheard from a distance, they still failed to defeat the Androids. That created a second timeline where Future Trunks would end up going back to the past to warn our heroes. Question is, is our Future Trunks the one from Cell's timeline before Cell killed him or the one from the original timeline where initially he failed, but Cell coming back from the second one ended up creating a 3rd timeline that changed his failure to a success? Or is he one from a timeline developed from Zen-Oh knows how many failed attempts?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 2:44:11 GMT
There were supposed to be four timelines by the end of the Cell saga. Timeline 1: Future Trunks' timeline. Timeline 2: Canon with Trunks returning to the past, warning Goku, Gohan defeats Cell, etc. Timeline 3: A separate past timeline that a different Future Trunks visited. In this timeline, they somehow found out a way to deactivate the cyborgs so Trunks never entered the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Timeline 4: Trunks from T3 returns to the future and deactivated the cyborgs of his world. Future Cell kills Trunks since he's weaker here and steals his time machine to return to what ends up being our main timeline. Not sure if this answered your question . I think these were the only canon timelines that resulted from time travel.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 14, 2017 3:48:12 GMT
There were supposed to be four timelines by the end of the Cell saga. Timeline 1: Future Trunks' timeline. Timeline 2: Canon with Trunks returning to the past, warning Goku, Gohan defeats Cell, etc. Timeline 3: A separate past timeline that a different Future Trunks visited. In this timeline, they somehow found out a way to deactivate the cyborgs so Trunks never entered the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Timeline 4: Trunks from T3 returns to the future and deactivated the cyborgs of his world. Future Cell kills Trunks since he's weaker here and steals his time machine to return to what ends up being our main timeline. Not sure if this answered your question . I think these were the only canon timelines that resulted from time travel. Thanks. I don't know why I didn't think to check the DB Wiki, but after doing so I discovered there is actually a 5th one that almost nothing is known about except that Trunks traveled to that timeline and defeated Frieza and Cold. Then of course there are 2 more created during Super. As for Future Trunks & Cell traveling back just creating random unexplainable changes that somehow made 17 & 18 stronger, I actually think it's likely that Dr. Gero discovered that Cell had traveled from the future and to assist in Cell's Perfection, he decided to make sure 17 & 18 were as strong as he could possibly make them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 4:01:00 GMT
Kor SaiyajinkamiI think the future cyborgs may have been the same strength but Trunks assumed they were weaker because they toyed with him more. In the manga special, Future #17 pointed out that he used less than 50% of his power last time he fought Gohan. It's still possible that both are true though with Trunks underestimating them and that they were also weaker in the future. I never understood why they were less evil in the present timeline. I guess Goku being alive let them focus on their mission first while Goku being dead in the future before they were activated made them feel like they had no purpose and they just snapped?
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 14, 2017 4:15:38 GMT
Kor Saiyajinkami I think the future cyborgs may have been the same strength but Trunks assumed they were weaker because they toyed with him more. In the manga special, Future #17 pointed out that he used less than 50% of his power last time he fought Gohan. It's still possible that both are true though with Trunks underestimating them and that they were also weaker in the future. I never understood why they were less evil in the present timeline. I guess Goku being alive let them focus on their mission first while Goku being dead in the future before they were activated made them feel like they had no purpose and they just snapped? Well I think the potential for their evil existed in the main timeline, but they never got the chance to be as evil as they were in Trunk's timeline since our heroes trained prior to their arrival. Also Goku being alive and 16 being awakened changed their goals. I think with our heroes being strong enough to give them a challenge that they didn't straight off kill them right away. Remember even in Trunks' future timeline, they acted like children who were playing a game. I think in Trunks' timeline since our heroes hadn't trained like in our timeline, they were too weak and weren't worth playing with, so they killed them. Then in our timeline the presence of Cell forced our heroes to get much stronger, much faster and the Androids ended up being surpassed in strength, so they weren't able to express their evil. This along with the fact that our heroes ended up showing mercy to them after Perfect Cell was dealt with allowed them to become better people
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 14, 2017 4:17:08 GMT
I believe Toriyama was going for butterfly effect as well. Small seemingly nothing changes can produce huge unintended changes. Like stepping on a butterfly in the past in theory can change it so the Nazis win WWII even though the two things seem unconnected to each other. Trunks and Cell coming back in time at all and make changes have unintended changes, 17 and 18 being less evil, 16 being made at all, and Gero's death happening sooner or later etc. It impacted Goku getting heart virus later than he should.
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 14, 2017 4:25:12 GMT
I never understood why they were less evil in the present timeline. I guess Goku being alive let them focus on their mission first while Goku being dead in the future before they were activated made them feel like they had no purpose and they just snapped? Y'know, I've wondered about this in the past and the thought just came to me: maybe it was Android 16. I think he was a huge stabilizing factor on them. That, combined with Goku still being alive so they still had a purpose, might've made the difference.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Sept 14, 2017 5:21:36 GMT
I never understood why they were less evil in the present timeline. I guess Goku being alive let them focus on their mission first while Goku being dead in the future before they were activated made them feel like they had no purpose and they just snapped? Y'know, I've wondered about this in the past and the thought just came to me: maybe it was Android 16. I think he was a huge stabilizing factor on them. That, combined with Goku still being alive so they still had a purpose, might've made the difference. I agree it was thanks to #16 but I've got a different reason, maybe not perfect: Dr. Gero probably made 16 the original "Son Goku Killer," not 17 and 18. The "Defects" we heard of might've been from the murder code #16 contained which were faulty and the present Gero didn't bother to apply them to 17 and 18, just make them super strong or use an alternate program to take down Goku and the Z warriors. The Future Timeline, thanks to the lack of A16, might've been the result of Gero's original Murder Program, making them more destructive and rampant compared to the "passive" present counterparts.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 14, 2017 5:55:48 GMT
Y'know, I've wondered about this in the past and the thought just came to me: maybe it was Android 16. I think he was a huge stabilizing factor on them. That, combined with Goku still being alive so they still had a purpose, might've made the difference. I agree it was thanks to #16 but I've got a different reason, maybe not perfect: Dr. Gero probably made 16 the original "Son Goku Killer," not 17 and 18. The "Defects" we heard of might've been from the murder code #16 contained which were faulty and the present Gero didn't bother to apply them to 17 and 18, just make them super strong or use an alternate program to take down Goku and the Z warriors. The Future Timeline, thanks to the lack of A16, might've been the result of Gero's original Murder Program, making them more destructive and rampant compared to the "passive" present counterparts. I actually think it's the butterfly effect created a series of different circumstances. The heroes were stronger in this timeline, which meant that the Androids saw them worthy as toys they could continue to play with. This allowed the heroes to survive longer and Cell's presence forced them to get stronger much faster than they did in the 3.5 years of training after Trunks' warning. This made it to where the heroes were stronger than the Androids. Also Cell being there and absorbing them meant they didn't have the chance to toy around with the heroes until they got bored and decided to kill them. Then when Cell was gone, they were already eclipsed by our heroes, so the smart thing for them was to temper they're childish destruction game desires and grow up into better people. All-in-all it comes down to a different series of events making it not possible for them to go on their destructive killing sprees. The innate desire to survive that all living being have that may or may not have been enhanced by the cybernetic upgrades Gero built into them, forced them to become tamer beings and to grow up even. When one matures, they see that their childish desires are not good and learn to be more responsible adults. I think this is what ultimately happened. In the future timeline, there was no reason for them to mature and grow up since they were the most powerful beings around and nobody could stop them, not even Gohan and Trunks.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 5:59:15 GMT
I just remembered an old theory I heard as to why they were more dangerous in the future timeline. In the future timeline, Goku arrived on Earth a little later than Trunks in the present so King Cold's men were able to begin killing innocent humans. Some of the humans they killed just so happened to be the parents of #17 and #18 which traumatized the twins. In the present timeline, Trunks took out the henchmen before that so the twins never had that negative experience. I'm not sure if #17 and 18 have any memory of their lives before becoming cyborgs though but it's an interesting theory.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 28, 2017 6:35:37 GMT
I just remembered an old theory I heard as to why they were more dangerous in the future timeline. In the future timeline, Goku arrived on Earth a little later than Trunks in the present so King Cold's men were able to begin killing innocent humans. Some of the humans they killed just so happened to be the parents of #17 and #18 which traumatized the twins. In the present timeline, Trunks took out the henchmen before that so the twins never had that negative experience. I'm not sure if #17 and 18 have any memory of their lives before becoming cyborgs though but it's an interesting theory. Interesting theory. It could work. Even without remembering who they once were, it's possible such a trauma could have had a psychological impact that would've stayed even without them remembering the exact nature of their trauma.
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Post by FunnyEvil on Oct 6, 2017 8:16:28 GMT
A lot.
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