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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 18, 2017 10:44:27 GMT
I think Buu was removed from Team 7 because there are just too many problems with using him as a ToP fighter in regards to pleasing the fans of the Dragon Ball series' in general. The major issue being in regards to his ability to absorb people. In regards to be a tournament fighter for a tournament with such importance, I think his ability to absorb others to boost his repertoire of abilities and statistics would be extremely important, but then that would just make him too much of a Mary Sue even for Dragon Ball standards. I mean why not just have him absorb any character not on Team 7 that could benefit him in anyway and basically just turn him into Zen Buu of DBM? Oh and as far as I could tell there was no rule that forced the Kais, GoDs, & Angels to attend the tournament, so technically you could have him absorb Beerus, Whis, Old Kai, & Shin. That would I think cause a lot of outrage amongst fans and other Universes' Kais and GoDs as well if they ever found out that that was reason why Universe 7 didn't have their Kais, GoD, and Angel as spectators. The thing is though that technically it wouldn't persay be against the rules as long as Buu didn't release them while he was still in bounds, but just imagine the kinduva outrage it would cause amongst the other Universes' GoDs & Kais. Oh and with Whis inside Buu, Universe 7 couldn't lose because of the Time Rewind ability though likely seeing Buu do that it would force the Zen-Ohs to add a rule that says he could no longer do it and they'd probably outta fairness re-DQ whomever he reversed time to bring back into bounds. But oh Kami, that would really cause an insane uproar on a level that could actually possible derail the entire tournament by causing the other 7 Universes to revolt.
Yeah, I know maybe you probably just think the real reason was to allow Frieza to be on Team 7, but they could've Deus Ex removed any of Team 7's weaker characters for that purpose.
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Post by christhesaiyan on Sept 19, 2017 7:25:38 GMT
Frankly I think it was because Buu is too overpowered because of his regenerate abilities. Any time someone throws a kick, punch, or energy blast his way it just ends up comically leaving a hole in his stomach. Also he's more of a comic relief character and it would diminish the serious and intense tone of the tournament.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 19, 2017 7:42:21 GMT
Frankly I think it was because Buu is too overpowered because of his regenerate abilities. Any time someone throws a kick, punch, or energy blast his way it just ends up comically leaving a hole in his stomach. Also he's more of a comic relief character and it would diminish the serious and intense tone of the tournament. That too, but I don't think that aspect would've been too much of a problem. I mean that would just make him pretty much a mix between Botamo and the Slime Guy that Jiren defeated. Like I said the real OPed aspect that probably brought it about was that he could just absorb an insanely absurd amount of non-participants pre-tourney and pretty much become Zen Buu of DBM, which would give him and U7 an extremely unfair advantage especially even more so if he'd be allowed to release those inside him and it counted as him creating entities via magic. Also he could spam turning enemies into candy by telekinetically lifting them into the air and fire a candy beam at the lot of those who couldn't resist the telekinetic attack. From there he could use telekinesis to expel them from the arena. I imagine that seeing as many fighters in the tournament ended up being rather weak that he could've therefore eliminated half of the opposition in probably the first couple seconds of the ToP.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 7:53:53 GMT
Frankly I think it was because Buu is too overpowered because of his regenerate abilities. Any time someone throws a kick, punch, or energy blast his way it just ends up comically leaving a hole in his stomach. Also he's more of a comic relief character and it would diminish the serious and intense tone of the tournament. Agreed. Also Freeza has much more selling power worldwide than Buu and Cell combined, especially after the success that was RoF. Between this, what christhesaiyan said and blatantly shameless fan service, there are no other reasons imho. Cmon Kor Saiyajinkami , do you honestly think AT removed Buu for any other reason aside from money? I'll try and think of it glass half full, maybe AT went with Freeza because 1: Freeza is by far his favourite villain and 2: He had PTSD with how DB spiraled out of control after the Cell Games and he didn't want to repeat that, but in the process accidentally made things worse because he is even older and significantly more senile? I dunno man, I honestly believe your post has had more thought put into it than what AT has put into his retirement fund show.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 19, 2017 8:37:25 GMT
Frankly I think it was because Buu is too overpowered because of his regenerate abilities. Any time someone throws a kick, punch, or energy blast his way it just ends up comically leaving a hole in his stomach. Also he's more of a comic relief character and it would diminish the serious and intense tone of the tournament. Agreed. Also Freeza has much more selling power worldwide than Buu and Cell combined, especially after the success that was RoF. Between this, what christhesaiyan said and blatantly shameless fan service, there are no other reasons imho. Cmon Kor Saiyajinkami , do you honestly think AT removed Buu for any other reason aside from money? I'll try and think of it glass half full, maybe AT went with Freeza because 1: Freeza is by far his favourite villain and 2: He had PTSD with how DB spiraled out of control after the Cell Games and he didn't want to repeat that, but in the process accidentally made things worse because he is even older and significantly more senile? I dunno man, I honestly believe your post has had more thought put into it than what AT has put into his retirement fund show. It's possible, but even if that's the case, it's still interesting food for thought. Also if adding Freeza really was the whole reason he was removed, then why not remove some other character instead? Also it's not the first time Buu was removed from U7's team for a tournament involving more than 1 Universe and if I'm not mistaken for the very same reason of falling asleep at least in the anime. I mean do you really think Akira Toriyama has that much hatred for Majin Buu? I don't think so especially since Majin Buu was the very first main antagonist that he was allowed to have complete freedom over since his editors knew that he was tired of creating Z and that the only way to keep him going was to give him the one thing he always wanted which was complete freedom characters and story. In that sense I would imagine that Buu likely falls somewhere in his top 5 favorite villains, but maybe I'm wrong and he hates Buu despite that he was allowed complete freedom with Buu due to the fact that he really wanted to be done with the series after the Cell Games were over and from what I hear even earlier than that. Not sure if it's true, but I heard initially he wanted to finish things off with Frieza being the final antagonist of Dragon Ball (the Z not included since the manga never had the Z in the name in the original Japanese release).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 9:36:19 GMT
Agreed. Also Freeza has much more selling power worldwide than Buu and Cell combined, especially after the success that was RoF. Between this, what christhesaiyan said and blatantly shameless fan service, there are no other reasons imho. Cmon Kor Saiyajinkami , do you honestly think AT removed Buu for any other reason aside from money? I'll try and think of it glass half full, maybe AT went with Freeza because 1: Freeza is by far his favourite villain and 2: He had PTSD with how DB spiraled out of control after the Cell Games and he didn't want to repeat that, but in the process accidentally made things worse because he is even older and significantly more senile? I dunno man, I honestly believe your post has had more thought put into it than what AT has put into his retirement fund show. It's possible, but even if that's the case, it's still interesting food for thought. Also if adding Freeza really was the whole reason he was removed, then why not remove some other character instead? Also it's not the first time Buu was removed from U7's team for a tournament involving more than 1 Universe and if I'm not mistaken for the very same reason of falling asleep at least in the anime. I mean do you really think Akira Toriyama has that much hatred for Majin Buu? I don't think so especially since Majin Buu was the very first main antagonist that he was allowed to have complete freedom over since his editors knew that he was tired of creating Z and that the only way to keep him going was to give him the one thing he always wanted which was complete freedom characters and story. In that sense I would imagine that Buu likely falls somewhere in his top 5 favorite villains, but maybe I'm wrong and he hates Buu despite that he was allowed complete freedom with Buu due to the fact that he really wanted to be done with the series after the Cell Games were over and from what I hear even earlier than that. Not sure if it's true, but I heard initially he wanted to finish things off with Frieza being the final antagonist of Dragon Ball (the Z not included since the manga never had the Z in the name in the original Japanese release). Oh of course it's food for thought for fans like us to discuss and I can't disagree with the actual points you made however I am just trying to be realistic when it comes to the reason/s as to why he is going about things the way he is. Also of note is Buu's ability to insta win with chocolate beam and his ability to copy his opponents techniques with his sharingan. For all I know he is saving Buu for a future DBS arc and has him utilising friendship, umm, absorbing everyone, to beat an OP villain. 10 bucks says it's Sugarcoated Pure Diamond Freeza with a cherry on top..... Buu had what is arguably the best fight in the ToP exhibition matches so with any luck his absence is for reasons other than just marketability/fanservice and his potential does not go wasted, but I'm not holding my breath on that one. As for complete freedom, I'm pretty sure he had that in the beginning of DB and only lost it once it became hugely successful only to regain it after his threats to quit were eventually taken seriously, but don't quote me on it. He did want to wrap up the story with Goku avenging the Saiyans and dying along with Namek, but money talks. That's why Freeza is hands down the most developed villain in the series. I want to say the same went for after Cell, but I have come across conflicting reports (mainly in regards to having Gohan taking over as the lead) and in the end I just think meh, content is content. Don't forget he also wanted it to end at the end of "DB" but was pressured into making "DBZ" so there is that too. The Z was for purely for non Japanese audiences, specifically American because apparently Americans are easily confused (not my words), so when it came to selling DB they started off with the more e-peen extending power level focused, err, I mean 'action oriented' Saiyan saga and marketed it as a separate series/entity from Goku's 'wackier' childhood adventures, which lets face it, had DB been released from the beginning in America it wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 19, 2017 9:48:49 GMT
There seem to be a lot of comedic characters at the tournament though from the episodes I saw. I don't think Buu is too comedic for this arc. Krillin beat someone by throwing his shoe at them. I also don't think Buu is too overpowered to work. With so many different characters and abilities created for this tournament that it seems unlikely they couldn't think of a way for characters to stop Majin Buu. There could have easily been someone with a sealing technique besides U7. Someone could use Buu's innocent nature against him to knock him out of the ring. There could just be someone who is plain stronger than Buu and can defeat him. Even absorption isn't a big obstacle. That was mostly tied to Super Buu. He was more intelligent than his Fat Buu/Mr. Buu incarnation that he actively used that ability to empower himself. Kid Buu and Fat Buu natures made them not using or overusing this ability feel natural. There could have even been an episode of someone trying to teach Buu how to use absorption thinking it would give them an edge only to have the attempts fail to comedic effects for a subplot to the episodes leading up to the tournament.
I side with Jim on it coming down to money and fan service. They seem to just be using the more memorable or older elements of DB. I mean Buu hasn't been used a lot, but neither have Trunks or Goten either. I really doubt it had anything to do with lack of experience being bad (and had everything to do with them only appearing in the last arc in the original series and not having nostalgia factor). As cool as Roshi's moments have been in this tournament it has been purely fan service. He already passed the torch to the younger generation back in the 22nd tournament and his story naturally ended after he failed to stop Piccolo. We can debate all day on Roshi's experience makes him more useful or not, but the fact is Krillin, Tien, Yamecha, and Chaozu are more tactical than the Saiyans and have more special abilities that could have easily been refined to have them do the same things as Roshi and it wouldn't be far fetched and they are very experienced fighters. Tien refining the Mafubu isn't a stretch considering he learned and mastered it in days. Krillin and Yaemcha developed less straightforward ki techniques that could be useful. Upgrading Chaozu telekinesis could have been good.
I imagine Roshi is popular in Japan so they chose to give him a major role again and not try to redeem Chaozu and Yamecha who are probably less popular than Roshi. I wouldn't be surprised is if the reason just comes down to Toriyama wanting more money and just uses the classics.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 19, 2017 9:49:48 GMT
It's possible, but even if that's the case, it's still interesting food for thought. Also if adding Freeza really was the whole reason he was removed, then why not remove some other character instead? Also it's not the first time Buu was removed from U7's team for a tournament involving more than 1 Universe and if I'm not mistaken for the very same reason of falling asleep at least in the anime. I mean do you really think Akira Toriyama has that much hatred for Majin Buu? I don't think so especially since Majin Buu was the very first main antagonist that he was allowed to have complete freedom over since his editors knew that he was tired of creating Z and that the only way to keep him going was to give him the one thing he always wanted which was complete freedom characters and story. In that sense I would imagine that Buu likely falls somewhere in his top 5 favorite villains, but maybe I'm wrong and he hates Buu despite that he was allowed complete freedom with Buu due to the fact that he really wanted to be done with the series after the Cell Games were over and from what I hear even earlier than that. Not sure if it's true, but I heard initially he wanted to finish things off with Frieza being the final antagonist of Dragon Ball (the Z not included since the manga never had the Z in the name in the original Japanese release). Oh of course it's food for thought for fans like us to discuss and I can't disagree with the actual points you made however I am just trying to be realistic when it comes to the reason/s as to why he is going about things the way he is. Also of note is Buu's ability to insta win with chocolate beam and his ability to copy his opponents techniques with his sharingan. For all I know he is saving Buu for a future DBS arc and has him utilising friendship, umm, absorbing everyone, to beat an OP villain. 10 bucks says it's Sugarcoated Pure Diamond Freeza with a cherry on top..... Buu had what is arguably the best fight in the ToP exhibition matches so with any luck his absence is for reasons other than just marketability/fanservice and his potential does not go wasted, but I'm not holding my breath on that one. Okay we totally need to have Asura or any of this community's members talented in Toriyama style draw this. Oh and to make it more epic, he should be fighting against SSJ2PUG. Oh and if someone does draw that awesomeness, I totally think you should make it your profile picture or signature. Okay on a more serious note, I really do hope that somewhere down the line that Buu's absorption abilities get used like this and that maybe they let him play the major protagonist against a future season's major antagonist. I mean it would just be the ultimate use of Buu and would really show his epicness as well as give a less used character a more major role. Not to mention that after absorbing smarter characters along with Super Mega OP strong characters like Goku & Vegeta, it would basically allow us to see the return of Buuhan tho in maybe a slightly different capacity. Oh and wouldn't it be cool, though probably extremely unlikely, if they brought on the DBM guys in a consultationary role since Buu would essentially be Zen Buu at that point?
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 19, 2017 10:03:02 GMT
Even absorption isn't a big obstacle. That was mostly tied to Super Buu. He was more intelligent than his Fat Buu/Mr. Buu incarnation that he actively used that ability to empower himself. Kid Buu and Fat Buu natures made them not using or overusing this ability feel natural. There could have even been an episode of someone trying to teach Buu how to use absorption thinking it would give them an edge only to have the attempts fail to comedic effects for a subplot to the episodes leading up to the tournament. Well seeing as Buu or probably Mr Satan came up with the concept of Slimmed Down Buu, I think it isn't a stretch to say he could be talked into absorbing others and if they had Bulma absorbed first then I don't even think he'd need anymore coaching in regards to absorbing others as by that point he'd be even more intelligent than Buuhan minus the fighting based knowledge, but that would be gained after tactically absorbing others. And yeah I agree with the fact that it was probably down to popularity when they selected the members of the team other than Goku & Vegeta, but if they had been smart they could've easily done the Buu absorbing a bunch of extra characters to sneakily bypass the limit of 10 fighters. I mean just have Buu absorb more characters and release them after the tournament has started. They could've easily had that be okay by the rules via technicality in the same way that DBM's Vargas permitted Tapion to summon Hirudegarn.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 19, 2017 19:43:06 GMT
It is not far fetched the writers would just ignore absorption or have it being too difficult for Buu to learn for plot purposes though. The sleeping for several months problem was invented to keep Buu out of action with Freeza movie originally even though in the original series showed the exact opposite of Buu's sleeping patterns (him only sleeping for minutes as oppose to months). It would fit for them not having absorption be Buu's secret weapon if they don't want it to even if they don't give a satisfying answer or invent a new limitation that goes against the original series.
I think it is an interesting thought and respect you want to give Toriyama the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't think he put as much thought into it in regards to Buu. I think what we saw is what we got. Buu was a red herring meant to get us excited then worried when he fell asleep to make us feel tense on who would replace him. He generates more hype for Freeza.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 19, 2017 21:34:29 GMT
It is not far fetched the writers would just ignore absorption or have it being too difficult for Buu to learn for plot purposes though. The sleeping for several months problem was invented to keep Buu out of action with Freeza movie originally even though in the original series showed the exact opposite of Buu's sleeping patterns (him only sleeping for minutes as oppose to months). It would fit for them not having absorption be Buu's secret weapon if they don't want it to even if they don't give a satisfying answer or invent a new limitation that goes against the original series. I think it is an interesting thought and respect you want to give Toriyama the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't think he put as much thought into it in regards to Buu. I think what we saw is what we got. Buu was a red herring meant to get us excited then worried when he fell asleep to make us feel tense on who would replace him. He generates more hype for Freeza. Satan actually does mention that Buu usually only sleeps for incredibly brief periods of time back when Goku found out he'd fallen asleep and started scrambling for a 10th fighter, so it's not like they forgot about it...they just don't want Buu to participate for whatever reason. Personally, I agree with the theory that he's just too OP and that Frieza is better fanservice. Not so OP to the point that Jiren couldn't just knock him off the stage or anything, but against all these fodder fighters that Goku and co. are up against it just wouldn't be fair to them. Not that anyone cares about the fodder fighters to begin with, but what's done is done.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 20, 2017 7:21:53 GMT
If we assume this theory is correct though that means we are accepting the a staff of writers and Toriyama can't think of ways to make characters that can compete with or defeat Majin Buu. Despite having an empty board where they could have made any character they want in different universes and not have them limited or even the same as the main universe and they still couldn't come up with fighters with unique abilities that could render Buu useless, warriors who are just outright strong enough to power through his abilities, and a warrior that combines both. None of them have any creative ideas left for these characters. That doesn't bode well for the future of this franchise. In which case this better be the final arc of Super and they should just leave DB alone.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2017 13:23:07 GMT
I think the issue with Buu is simply the fact that someone with his abilities is next to impossible to have in a situation with long term tension. They either curbstomp the opposition or get curb stomped. His healing factor and unlimited stamina means that every fight he enters is pointless unless he loses one and the fact that he can heal his allies only makes it worse. At least with Frieza and 17 if an enemy actually lays the smackdown on them it'll actually mean something, with Buu though it might as well not of happened. It also doesn't help that Buu's personality just isn't that interesting anymore either meaning that having him around for character interaction isn't that good either.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 20, 2017 22:54:16 GMT
If we assume this theory is correct though that means we are accepting the a staff of writers and Toriyama can't think of ways to make characters that can compete with or defeat Majin Buu. Despite having an empty board where they could have made any character they want in different universes and not have them limited or even the same as the main universe and they still couldn't come up with fighters with unique abilities that could render Buu useless, warriors who are just outright strong enough to power through his abilities, and a warrior that combines both. None of them have any creative ideas left for these characters. That doesn't bode well for the future of this franchise. In which case this better be the final arc of Super and they should just leave DB alone. ...Basically, yeah. All they've really done to best him in terms of enemy characters has just been to have them be way stronger than him. But that's been happening since like...Gohan. In the Buu Saga. Arguably Gotenks. There's a reason TeamFourStar's "punch him really, really hard" joke works. Buu's problem is that Buu was meant to be it. The final villain. The grand finale. Hax regeneration that makes Cell's look childish. Magical attacks. Almost immune to harm. Nigh impossible to reason with (depending on the version). He could even absorb people like Cell, except he did it better and vastly improved on it instead of Cell's minute increments. Then something happened. Buu stopped being the final villain. So now we have a Grand Finale Final Villain type of OP character who isn't even the strongest member of the team, but still has incredibly good Final Boss Hax abilities. Buu is Toriyama's creative zeitgeist in terms of hax characters and abilities. He can't outthink being more creative than Buu because, IMO, Buu was the best he had. He isn't completely creatively bankrupt (as Hit shows), but I feel we're nearing the end. Anything after him is just going to be generically stronger. DBGT explored a couple of other avenues. Baby the living parasite was almost like an anti-Buu character who instead of absorbing into one infected himself into many. Super 17 brought back the energy absorption but on steroids. The Shadow Dragons turned the heroes own world saving and friend resurrection reset button against them. Which isn't to say they can't be creative...I think they're just running out of steam. Hit's Time Skip was fantastic and IMO is the best example of a new character done right. Frost using secret weapons was a nice trick and the HAKAI will always be epic...but really it's just more and more and more of generic powerups. Botamo can't be harmed...but nothing's really been done with the guy. U10 was completely erased and they ended up showing us NOTHING worth noting. Part of this I think is the sheer volume of characters they're introducing. They just aren't bothering being creative because there's just so many characters and they ultimately don't matter. Just fodder to fill time until enough hype has been built up for Goku and Jiren's showdown.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 28, 2017 6:22:18 GMT
Buu's problem is that Buu was meant to be it. The final villain. The grand finale. Hax regeneration that makes Cell's look childish. Magical attacks. Almost immune to harm. Nigh impossible to reason with (depending on the version). He could even absorb people like Cell, except he did it better and vastly improved on it instead of Cell's minute increments. Then something happened. Buu stopped being the final villain. So now we have a Grand Finale Final Villain type of OP character who isn't even the strongest member of the team, but still has incredibly good Final Boss Hax abilities. Buu is Toriyama's creative zeitgeist in terms of hax characters and abilities. He can't outthink being more creative than Buu because, IMO, Buu was the best he had. He isn't completely creatively bankrupt (as Hit shows), but I feel we're nearing the end. Anything after him is just going to be generically stronger. Which isn't to say they can't be creative...I think they're just running out of steam. Hit's Time Skip was fantastic and IMO is the best example of a new character done right. Frost using secret weapons was a nice trick and the HAKAI will always be epic...but really it's just more and more and more of generic powerups. Botamo can't be harmed...but nothing's really been done with the guy. I agree with this and what I actually think will happen is that when it comes to mortal entities will be what MasakoX stated in his recent video about the new psuedo-retconned reason for why Goku wants to train Uub. By the time Goku fights Uub in the tournament, Goku will have plateaued most likely and so will all other mortal entities that are likely to be later protagonists. Everyone will have reached the furthest that Ki-training can accomplish in terms of physical strength and the only way "to get stronger" will to strengthen the power of your mind aka your will. It'll be basically everyone that has maxxed out is the same physically in power, but the one who wins is the one that has the greatest willpower &/or is the smartest tactician. What Uub will provide is maybe a potential to overcome this glass sealing since he is for all intensive purposes Kid Buu, but good. Maybe they'll focus on physically maxxed out characters learning on how to better move without thinking and learn/master special abilities like those that characters like Hit and Botamo have. Though only through Uub might such a thing become possible for those that aren't naturally gifted with such abilities. So maybe Goku will train Uub and Uub will unlock some magical power that can let him bestow special abilities onto others kinda like the Quirk All-for-One.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 28, 2017 6:30:29 GMT
I think the issue with Buu is simply the fact that someone with his abilities is next to impossible to have in a situation with long term tension. They either curbstomp the opposition or get curb stomped. His healing factor and unlimited stamina means that every fight he enters is pointless unless he loses one and the fact that he can heal his allies only makes it worse. At least with Frieza and 17 if an enemy actually lays the smackdown on them it'll actually mean something, with Buu though it might as well not of happened. It also doesn't help that Buu's personality just isn't that interesting anymore either meaning that having him around for character interaction isn't that good either. I agree with you here and that's why I thought that that could've been a potential reason for him being removed from the roster like they did to him twice (U6 v U7 tourney & the ToP). As for personality, that could easily be fixed by having him temporarily absorb one or more characters to temporarily assume some of their personality traits, intelligence, memories, powers, etc etc. That of course would be a huge reason to keep him away from such a tournament. Also another reason to keep him out of the tournament is that technically he could've ended almost the entire thing by himself single-handedly by using telekinetically raising Team 7 above the arena and using a Change Beam to turn the entire arena into a gaseous state or something like that so that everyone else would fall out of bounds all at the same time while Team 7 having been above where the arena was would technically still be in bounds.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 3, 2017 6:29:28 GMT
If we assume this theory is correct though that means we are accepting the a staff of writers and Toriyama can't think of ways to make characters that can compete with or defeat Majin Buu. Despite having an empty board where they could have made any character they want in different universes and not have them limited or even the same as the main universe and they still couldn't come up with fighters with unique abilities that could render Buu useless, warriors who are just outright strong enough to power through his abilities, and a warrior that combines both. None of them have any creative ideas left for these characters. That doesn't bode well for the future of this franchise. In which case this better be the final arc of Super and they should just leave DB alone. ...Basically, yeah. All they've really done to best him in terms of enemy characters has just been to have them be way stronger than him. But that's been happening since like...Gohan. In the Buu Saga. Arguably Gotenks. There's a reason TeamFourStar's "punch him really, really hard" joke works. Buu's problem is that Buu was meant to be it. The final villain. The grand finale. Hax regeneration that makes Cell's look childish. Magical attacks. Almost immune to harm. Nigh impossible to reason with (depending on the version). He could even absorb people like Cell, except he did it better and vastly improved on it instead of Cell's minute increments. Then something happened. Buu stopped being the final villain. So now we have a Grand Finale Final Villain type of OP character who isn't even the strongest member of the team, but still has incredibly good Final Boss Hax abilities. Buu is Toriyama's creative zeitgeist in terms of hax characters and abilities. He can't outthink being more creative than Buu because, IMO, Buu was the best he had. He isn't completely creatively bankrupt (as Hit shows), but I feel we're nearing the end. Anything after him is just going to be generically stronger. DBGT explored a couple of other avenues. Baby the living parasite was almost like an anti-Buu character who instead of absorbing into one infected himself into many. Super 17 brought back the energy absorption but on steroids. The Shadow Dragons turned the heroes own world saving and friend resurrection reset button against them. Which isn't to say they can't be creative...I think they're just running out of steam. Hit's Time Skip was fantastic and IMO is the best example of a new character done right. Frost using secret weapons was a nice trick and the HAKAI will always be epic...but really it's just more and more and more of generic powerups. Botamo can't be harmed...but nothing's really been done with the guy. U10 was completely erased and they ended up showing us NOTHING worth noting. Part of this I think is the sheer volume of characters they're introducing. They just aren't bothering being creative because there's just so many characters and they ultimately don't matter. Just fodder to fill time until enough hype has been built up for Goku and Jiren's showdown. I agree they are running out of steam. Honestly it is not that hard to write around Buu anymore than any other character. Buu can regenerate, but we've seen in the past he can be beaten to a pulp to the point where his regeneration starts to slow down. Kid Buu nearly killed Fat Buu this way. Magic healing could be problematic, but it could also make him a target for everyone at the tournament. If this Jiren character knocked Buu's ass out later on in the tournament and U7 losing their healer it would create tension. If there was an actual magic user in one of these universes it is easy to have him or her counter Buu's abilities. Someone can even use Buu's regeneration against him by blowing him into several pieces then having someone could wait for him to come together then use a sealing technique on him. This all comes down to the writers not having enough creativity to make these universes have more skilled or better fighters. As hax as Majin Buu is to most people that there are ways to write around him or have characters with unique abilities that could make them stand out and be counters to Buu. The fact that we are even discussing they couldn't think of ways to defeat Buu means to me DB needs to end and they have no ideas left. They either need to let the franchise die or do a total reboot to free their creative juices up to balance out power, skill, and technique better.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 3, 2017 8:11:19 GMT
Son PanI think they could've done what you are talking about, but no matter how you slice it people would've complained that he was either too powerful, he got nerfed, that they made a more hax character just for the purpose of defeating him, or they Deus Ex defeated him because he was defeating too many characters. I think for sake of including Frieza and to cut down the complaints they just figured they'd Deus Ex him before the tournament to get the bitching over during the next several or so episodes that would lead up to the ToP. Better to have any fan bitching prior to the ToP than during it. Also by doing it that way, they could always change their minds last minute by having something cause him to wake up if it was too controversial and the ratings leading up to the ToP took a serious hit as a result of him being taken off the team again.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 3, 2017 9:34:05 GMT
Son Pan I think they could've done what you are talking about, but no matter how you slice it people would've complained that he was either too powerful, he got nerfed, that they made a more hax character just for the purpose of defeating him, or they Deus Ex defeated him because he was defeating too many characters. I think for sake of including Frieza and to cut down the complaints they just figured they'd Deus Ex him before the tournament to get the bitching over during the next several or so episodes that would lead up to the ToP. Better to have any fan bitching prior to the ToP than during it. Also by doing it that way, they could always change their minds last minute by having something cause him to wake up if it was too controversial and the ratings leading up to the ToP took a serious hit as a result of him being taken off the team again. I really don't think that was the case. I think it had everything to do with Freeza being more popular and them wanting to play on nostalgia then them having foresight on a potential problem. They picked all the fan favorites and came up with reasons for the characters introduced in the Buu arc to sit out, since they weren't classic. At worse Toriyama just couldn't think of a way to write around Buu and he was asked to bring Freeza back, so he took care of both with one stone. If he wrote that it meant the anime was stuck with it regardless on if they could find a better way to write out Buu or make a opponent who could defeat him. We have to remember Toriyama is the main creative force here. They have him do the outlines because they are afraid to have another GT on their hands. The problem here is Toriyama is only writing outlines and not a weekly manga where he would be forced to draw a chapter a week and find interesting or entertaining ways to work around problems. An outline is just giving basic ideas and letting someone else fill in the details. If Toriyama isn't drawing the tournament fight by fight the creative juices where he might have made better and more creative universes and opponents that could come to him while is at the drawing board isn't happening anymore. It's like asking him to write out every arc in advance, which isn't has helpful as people might think. Ideas can change and evolve as they go along. Toriyama might have been able to make this tournament better and allow everyone more to do if he was still writing or drawing things out in detail than he is now when being asked to come up with a beginning, middle, end, and some highlights.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 3, 2017 9:49:46 GMT
Son Pan I think they could've done what you are talking about, but no matter how you slice it people would've complained that he was either too powerful, he got nerfed, that they made a more hax character just for the purpose of defeating him, or they Deus Ex defeated him because he was defeating too many characters. I think for sake of including Frieza and to cut down the complaints they just figured they'd Deus Ex him before the tournament to get the bitching over during the next several or so episodes that would lead up to the ToP. Better to have any fan bitching prior to the ToP than during it. Also by doing it that way, they could always change their minds last minute by having something cause him to wake up if it was too controversial and the ratings leading up to the ToP took a serious hit as a result of him being taken off the team again. I really don't think that was the case. I think it had everything to do with Freeza being more popular and them wanting to play on nostalgia then them having foresight on a potential problem. They picked all the fan favorites and came up with reasons for the characters introduced in the Buu arc to sit out, since they weren't classic. At worse Toriyama just couldn't think of a way to write around Buu and he was asked to bring Freeza back, so he took care of both with one stone. If he wrote that it meant the anime was stuck with it regardless on if they could find a better way to write out Buu or make a opponent who could defeat him. We have to remember Toriyama is the main creative force here. They have him do the outlines because they are afraid to have another GT on their hands. The problem here is Toriyama is only writing outlines and not a weekly manga where he would be forced to draw a chapter a week and find interesting or entertaining ways to work around problems. An outline is just giving basic ideas and letting someone else fill in the details. If Toriyama isn't drawing the tournament fight by fight the creative juices where he might have made better and more creative universes and opponents that could come to him while is at the drawing board isn't happening anymore. It's like asking him to write out every arc in advance, which isn't has helpful as people might think. Ideas can change and evolve as they go along. Toriyama might have been able to make this tournament better and allow everyone more to do if he was still writing or drawing things out in detail than he is now when being asked to come up with a beginning, middle, end, and some highlights. That may be true as well, but maybe Toei couldn't come up with a good way to eliminate Buu or use him effectively without angering fans by having him be either too powerful or not properly using his powers and being weaker than he should, so they removed him, but decided to do it in such a way that they could undo the decision at the last minute if the ratings took a major hit and therefore were pushed into a corner. I mean if the ratings took a huge hit as a result of Buu being removed from the team, I'm sure Toei would've put him back on the team at the last minute. Maybe they'd just remove the least popular of the 10. I don't know who that would've been but for sake of example let's say out of the current 10, Tien was less popular than Buu after they found out fans were outraged that they took Buu off the team and the ratings too a noticeably massive hit as a result. Well then they could've just removed Tien from the team and had both Buu and Frieza be on the team. Do you get what I'm Saiyan? As for Toriyama just giving them an skeleton and letting them add the meat, muscles, nervous system, etc; I would like to imagine he's a little more involved than that. I would love to think he gives them the outline skeleton, lets them fill in the blanks, but sticks around to say he likes or dislikes certain things. If he likes a concept, he might let it be or maybe he says he likes it, but he'd tweak a few things here and there to improve it. If he dislikes a concept, then he probably tells them to come up with something else to fill in the blank for that section of the skeleton and maybe even gives them advice on how he'd change things or fill in that blank himself. I mean I could be wrong and maybe he just gives them an outline and doesn't find out how it turns out until he sees the episode on TV, but that sounds like only a somewhat bigger role than he had with GT as nothing but a minor consultant and not a big player in decision making. A huge part of why GT failed from what I hear is that they asked him to play a big role in it's development and he said he'd think about it, but then they didn't give him enough time to give them his answer and therefore as a result he only ended up have a much more minor role as a minor consultant instead of a much bigger part of the team with how he does with his role in making Super.
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