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Post by Ashanark on Sept 1, 2016 23:40:19 GMT
Welp, it's another three days until the next page and the DBZ section needs some attention, so...
Maybe it was because I first saw it years after the dub stopped showing on TV and was harder to impress, but I never liked the Buu saga as much as the Frieza or Cell ones. It was long, it switched a lot between silly and serious, the power levels were strange, and the plot bounced around like a game of pinball. But while I admit I’m a Gohan fanboy, over the past few years I've come to think that it would've been wrong to end DBZ with the Cell saga and that it needed to finish with Buu.
I’d like to get your thoughts: What did the Buu saga do well? What did it not do well? If you were put in charge of rewriting the Buu saga it for a DBZ remake 20 years from now, what would you change? Here’re mine:
Things I Like
1. Vegeta. Turns out DBZ isn’t actually Goku’s story, but Vegeta’s. (Well, and Gohan’s.) Why? Because Goku is a static character: he doesn’t really change or grow over the story—accepting that he’s a Saiyan is about it. Vegeta, though, is dynamic: look how much he changes from his intro to the end of DBZ. He goes from mass-murderer to letting himself become a punching bag to buy time for Goku. The real climax of the Buu arc isn’t Goku killing Buu, but Vegeta admitting Goku’s better.
2. Hercule Mr. Satan. Yeah, the guy did throw Android 16’s head at Gohan, but he was still a worthless, glory-stealing loser by the end of the Cell saga. To me, we needed the Buu saga to show Mr. Satan becoming a real hero. He’s the only one who thinks of befriending Buu. He’s the one who gets the Spirit Bomb to work. And to me, Mr. Satan attacking Kid Buu to protect Vegeta is the bravest thing anyone’s ever done in any Dragon Ball story—Z, GT, Super, or DBM.
3. Kid Buu. He’s the only canon Dragon Ball villain to be completely mindless. He can’t be reasoned with, and he can’t really talk. Also, his small size works for the same reason it worked for Frieza: we don’t expect tiny villains to be dangerous.
4. The Spirit Bomb. Having it actually work for once was nice, but it was even better that the people of Earth saved the day themselves by making it. Since both Frieza and Cell were beaten by a new Super Saiyan form, having Super Saiyan 3 fail and forcing Goku to rely on somebody else’s power was a nice change.
5. Goku coming back. Goku is the heart of Dragon Ball, after all, and having the series end with him finally getting to live in peace with his family was the best way to finish.
Things I Don’t Like
1. Super Saiyan 3. Yeah, it was cool, but it comes out of nowhere, takes the hype out of SS2, and never once accomplishes anything. And I like people having eyebrows.
2. All of Buu’s different forms. Fat Buu, Good Buu, Evil Buu, Super Buu, Buutenks, Buuhan, Buff Buu, Kid Buu…it’s all just too ridiculous for me. Toriyama should’ve stuck with three forms, max.
3. Everybody dying. Buu polishes off Earth’s population, the Z-Fighters, and then Earth itself, leaving only four people alive at best, but there's dozens of episodes still to go. While this does show just how nasty Buu is, it really lowers the stakes. Why worry about stopping Buu, if he’s already killed everyone?
4. Gohan. It’s clear to me that Toriyama changed his mind somewhere during the Buu saga, since Gohan gets a lot of hype and buildup and then disappears for the rest of the story. It’s not so much the decision that makes me mad—I can accept Gohan not wanting to be a fighter—it’s just the misdirection. I’d rather Toriyama made it clear from the beginning that Gohan wasn’t going to be the hero, or else just made Gohan the hero.
How I'd Rewrite It (the 30-second version)
How to make Gohan's storyline less lame, but also keep the Vegeta and Mr. Satan scenes? Some ideas:
1. Take out Super Saiyan 3 and adjust power levels/scenes accordingly. This makes Gotenks more crucial and keeps the tension in the Goku vs. Majin Vegeta fight.
2. Buu absorbs everyone on Earth instead of killing them, which is what turns him into Super Buu. He even absorbs Dende, meaning that if the heroes kill him, they can't bring anyone back.
3. Gohan is the one to get himself absorbed on purpose, not Vegito. And Vegito doesn't exist. Sad face 
4. After Gohan frees everyone, he sacrifices himself to kill Buu. While Buu still survives, this makes up for Gohan's failure earlier and isn't as lame as Goku abandoning him to be asploded. (Problem: too similar to Vegeta's sacrifice.)
5. Because everyone was absorbed instead of killed, when they are freed Goku thinks of using the Spirit Bomb right off the bat. Instead of having Vegeta get beat to a pulp to buy time for Goku to rest, he does it to buy time for the Spirit Bomb.
I've got more specifics, but I'll spare you for now.
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Buu Saga
Sept 2, 2016 3:46:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2016 3:46:59 GMT
Things I would have liked to see differently:
*Screw the spirt bomb plan, it was far to risky in my opinion.
*Use one of the wishes to bring gohan to buu
*Let goku and vegeta sit back in lawn chairs sipping margaritas as gohan proceeds to wipe the floor with kid buu.
*Have gohan keep up his training after buu is defeated and screw dragonball super. (You can be a family man and still train occasionally, I do love that gohan is a pretty cool dad in super.)
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Post by Dr. Wheelo on Sept 2, 2016 5:50:02 GMT
I honestly liked the Buu Saga more than the Cell Saga.
I really appreciated the wide array of unique and diverse abilities brought up in this arc, after the Ginyu force were taken out everyone from that point just started using different types of ki-blasts of varying size, shape, and power and that was about it. Then the Buu saga came along and differentiated things with magic themed villains, a welcome change of pace. Toriyama was free to get creative, including things like telepathy, possession, petrifying spit, materializing weapons, super ghost kamikaze attack,fusion, eating the SSJ transformation, and Buu himself getting a plethora of fun abilities like candy beam, a unique regeneration, and absorption as the main ones. I felt it was a very refreshing change of pace than if we had gotten a standard powerful dude who can shoot strong ki-blasts.
Buu was one of my favorites as a villain, and coming in all different shapes and sizes throughout the arc helped keep him fresh and cover a wide range of his villainy. The only two I didn't care so much for were the Evil Buu and Kid Buu, the former was a plot device to transition into Super Buu and the latter was a generic mindless doomsday beast with no true character. During the fight with Kid Buu I was left scratching my head wondering why Kibitoshin didn't just teleport Gohan on the scene to kick his ass once the dragon balls revived everybody.
When the Ginyu Force arrived they were one of the major highlights of Namek for me, they brought great fun and energy into the arc. There's just something innately fun about seeing a grown muscular man prancing around like a ballerina and kicking the ass of a battle hardened warrior like Vegeta. When the jolly pink fat Buu arrives and introduces himself by beating the Hell out of what's essentially the devil, before moving his aim on the God of the verse and finally Majin Vegeta, it's such a stark contrast to the tone kept me hooked and entertained. None of the weight of Vegeta's sacrifice was lost on that.
To me it felt like a good blend of classic Dragon Ball and post-23rd Dragon Ball. Keeping things lighthearted, adventurous, fun, and creative but also keeping high stakes, having intense action sequences, and not shying away from brutality and violence. I think it was a particularly refreshing breather after the Android/Cell saga that got a bit too bleak and grim for my tastes.
Mr. Satan was the true highlight of the arc, a character I found myself with conflicting feelings on whether to love or hate, but I ended up coming out with a strong appreciation for the character, his friendship with Buu in particular. This joke gag character did what none of the Z-fighters could, he stopped Buu, not by punching him out with a nifty power up, but by treating him as a friend and showing him the error of his ways. It's very different than Toriyama's usual route, and it would have actually all worked out if not for some asshole sniper. It shows that not all problems have to be solved with strength and violence... except for the part where this is an action shonen, but that's where Super Buu comes into play.
The Super Buu form was just a massive ham that was fun to watch/read. He was goofy, crazy, intimidating, angry, impatient, and methodical all wrapped into one package that could flip moods at a moments notice. He exudes a ton of personality. You get the feeling at first that he's just a giant manchild throwing temper tantrums and then it hits you that he's actually a clever individual who has been planning every move he made from the beginning and suddenly his threat level goes up.
Out of all the places that DB could have ended (King Piccolo/Frieza/Cell Games) they all had their merit coming somewhat full circle, but I feel this one did the best truly bringing all of the character arcs to a close. Krillin (who started the series picking up martial arts to score girls) is now married to the woman of his dreams with a daughter. Vegeta who has spent the whole series struggling to be the best finally comes to acceptance that Goku is simply the better of them, and lives a happy life with Bulma (who first appeared looking for a boyfriend). Piccolo you feel has found his own peace, all of his inner turmoil is gone are gone and he just seems contended. Majin Buu gets a second chance at life with the dog and his friend Mr. Satan. Gohan has finally earned the life that he wanted and not the one Goku wanted for him, he's happily married with a child and no longer has to fight. Then there's Goku who finally got the successor to carry on his legacy in Uub (still peeved that GT sidelined him and DBS ignored this ending). It kind of also hits you at this point that you've just followed Goku's entire life story from a naïve boy in the wild to that of a grandfather who become one of the strongest, all in the same tournament arena that was such a big part of the franchise.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 2, 2016 9:39:00 GMT
I've flip flopped a lot over the years. By the time Z concluded in the States I thought it was the flawless. I think as I got into more anime beyond DB and found fighting Shonen that had more story and character development than DB I looked back and felt Cell should have been the stopping point and Buu while having cool things was unneeded. Right now it is hard for me to say. I still like Cell arc more than the Buu arc, but I have to admit there were a lot of things I liked with the Buu arc that if it had been retconned out by Toriyama I would be sad to see go. In a way Buu was the embodiment of an end for DB in a ways that Cell wasn't.
My biggest gripe with Buu arc is that I felt the theme of newer generation rising to replace the old one was thrown away by the time it ended. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks each represented that. I liked that theme and felt for the first time in a while DB had more of a direction or story beyond beat this bad guy. Goku not beating Buu, because he was thinking about what happens if I'm not here to me while reckless made sense. I've always been bummed that later works ignore that for Goku and Vegeta. On the other hand I did really like the Spirit Bomb plan, since it had everyone contributing to defeat Buu once and for all and people of Earth got to play a part in saving themselves for once. As much as I love Cell as a villain I do appreciate Buu and all his transformations. It made him stand out as a villain in a series with very memorable villains. All his forms were essential to his progress, but also in moving the plot around, even Evil Buu. I really liked SS3 as a kid and still like it now, perhaps for different reasons, but with all the Super Saiyan transformation we had gotten over the manga this to me was the first one where it wasn't just a instant win or super form with no consequences. The ki drain to me made sense and I liked there was no oh they just need to perfect it or master it to get around it. It helped create tension in fights when it was used, but also signified that yes there is a limit to what even these guys can do acted as a last ditch effort type of deal.
What I liked:
1) Vegeta's character development. This was the arc that showed how far he came along from the monster he was when he was introduced. He felt like part of the gang in this one. Piccolo and Krillin's reactions to his death was heartwarming. They were probably the Z fighters who hated him the most, but by then even they mourned his death and accepted him in their ranks. It spoke volumes. Despite being selfish and letting Buu out Vegeta was determined to stop him to make up for it. He even killed himself after learning he was going to hell for sure.
2) Buu in general. He stood out as a villain and lived up to his reputation. He was never quite what people expected him to be and worked well. Kid Buu and Evil Buu just being generic doomsday villains worked out well and proved to work for different reasons.
3) Theme of new generation rising. Goten, Trunks, and Gohan all had great moments in this arc, even if they didn't beat Buu.
4) Great character moments, development, and interactions.
5) Satan/Hercule proving he was more than just a loud mouth glory hound. I disliked him in Cell arc, but by the time Buu arc ended he proved to be a well rounded and great character.
What I disliked:
1) New generation theme failing to take off.
2) Everyone who wasn't a Saiyan didn't get to do anything. Even Krillin and Piccolo who primary had major roles even when they were hopeless outmatched didn't do much in this arc. They weren't even allowed to fight Babidi's henchmen where they could have at least gotten one last fight in or helped the kids fight Buu in some way or form. 18 turned good yet she didn't get to do anything either. The arc cemented what Cell arc started in this regard.
3) Babidi, Dabura, and Supreme Kai were pushed aside too fast. Babidi being a wizard wasn't explored nearly enough. I think a villain who didn't rely on strength could have been more entertaining to watch if given more of a chance. He could have provided a interesting challenge for characters since they weren't used to fighting actual magic. Dabura was king of the demon realm. He was an actual demon. Considering how awesome Piccolo was that we could have gotten some great battles from him, especially since he also used magic a bit. We should have seen more demons among Babidi's crew as well. I don't think he should have gone down until Evil Buu appeared. Supreme Kai was a missed opportunity to show us a god who was active in the field. I don't mind him not knowing how strong the Saiyans are and making some mistakes, but I would have liked to have seen him shine in certain areas or even succeed in some instances. I would have had him get into a battle with Babidi to show how useful he could be. Considering Babidi ad magic an element most of the Z fighters were unfamiliar with the Supreme Kai could have been very useful in. Magical combat could have been great.
4) Goku leaving his family and friends to train Uub. I see no reason why Uub couldn't train with Goku at Goku's place. I would have liked the ending more if we saw Uub standing next to Pan with Goku getting ready to train them like Grandpa Gohan and Roshi did with him. I don't like how Goku can't both train and live a family life.
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Post by The Retro Kakarotto on Feb 24, 2020 0:26:32 GMT
This ain't a perfect write-up but it's how I'd imagine an alternate take on the Buu saga while preserving some of the key elements like Mystic Gohan and the Potaras. Don't expect too much out of it Blaze Ashanark . ___
Only Fat, Super, and Kid Buu are allowed in the story (but for Super Buu, he can alter the forms to the fusees like Buucolo and Buutenks. Neither Fat nor Kid have this ability, so I left it exclusively for Super Buu) Instead of Vegeta knocking out Goku, the two do indeed fight Fat Buu a bit. Goku fails and gets knocked out. Vegeta also hugs Trunks and stuff before saying goodbye. Vegeta moves Buu to a far distance so that he can do the self-destruct move. Here is where I’d have him pull the speech because he was impressed with a dead warrior still fighting to protect is friends and family, despite his soul being at risk of absolute destruction. Aka dead for real. (Also something about that fool Kakarot still protecting the weak, but realizing that he has Bulma and Trunks to fight for, so he isn't too far off.) Vegeta self-destructs but to no avail. Everything else continues including Gohan’s fuck up with Buu absorbing Piccolo and Gotenks. I’d have Buutenks stronger than Gohan to outclass him but not outright kill him with ease... So kinda like the level of Frieza vs Goku during the spirit Bomb scene to show dominance of the fight, but without the toying around aspect. Whatever situation occurs so that it looks like Gohan’s gonna die from Buutenks’ attack. Suddenly, Gotenks defuses inside of Buu and Buu reverts to Buucolo. Gohan gets the upper hand again, but Buucolo thinks of self-destructing to temporarily hide from Gohan. Does that, Gohan stumped because he can’t find Buu. Kibito shows up and brings Gohan to the world of the kais so they can figure out what to do next. (Satan and Dende comedically latch on and teleport as well). This is where Buu witness the IM technique. Gohan recounts what happened in the fight and admits that he was “drunk on power” like what Super said he did, all because he used a cheat code to get the power instead of training properly, so he feels guilty of using it. Suddenly, Buu appears after doing the IM technique. He reveals that he can manipulate the absorbees to fuse inside of him (I’m basing this on the U4 special where he can reorganize his pods to different chambers). Buutenks appears again and is threatening Gohan and Shin. Old Kai gets desperate and whips his Potara earrings. He has to enchant them for Mortals to use and he is the only one who knew the technique. The evil enemy sealed him away because of this fearful technique. (Not beerus, not counting Super, and said technique was not recorded, so no other Kais like Shin can replicate it ever again.) Old Kai throws them to Goku and then gets killed by Buutenks (or lives after the DB's resurrect him, his death is just an impact to Shin that he failed as the Supreme Kai and let his ancestor get slaughtered). Goku and Gohan fuse, become Gokhan and is strong enough to take down Buuhan, but know that they can’t kill him or they risk losing their friends and family. The get absorbed, barrier is kept like Vegito in U16, Gokhan rescues everyone, and they pop outside. We get Kid Buu, where he is super volatile and destroys everything on site. The only sure fire way to kill Buu is the spirit bomb because nothing else worked before. Spirit bomb is “pure energy” compared to the “chaotic energy within Buu” or some crap like that. Gokhan does the spirit bomb, get the same scene with hercule asking everyone for help. Successfully kills Kid Buu. Friends are saved, Vegeta accepted that he’s dead and stuck in hell (to make the scene with Trunks’ hug more emotional) as well as to pay for the sins he’s committed. And because he sacrificed himself, it’s not like a DB wish can bring him back via an indirect wish (“bring back all affected by Buu” for example). It’s not a happy ending like in Z but it gives him the peace of mind to acknowledge what he’s done in life, as well as a farewell to Goku, someone who proved to be better than Vegeta, selfless, fights for a family/weaker ones, etc. Gokhan tries to defuse, but Shin says he doesn’t know how to, and suggests the Db’s. their first instinct is to try Porunga because he multi-rezzed everyone for the spirit bomb. That wish to restore Goku’s strength is instead saved for Gokhan asking if he can defuse. The Namekians can sense that the wish would render the DB’s useless after doing that wish (or overload them, an allusion to the Shadow Dragon Arc and possible saga for a GT redo) so they politely say they can’t grant the wish. Gokhan understand and tries Earth’s DB’s. Shenron says he can grant the wish but he too would also leave this realm. No new guardian can fix this either, so they can't have Dende slap this to another Namekian to take care of. After talking it over with Dende and everyone else who was a part of the DB and DBZ crew, they agree to defuse Gokhan in exchange for the DBs. This is to let Goku rest in peace after fighting off DKP, Frieza, Cell, and partially Buu, and let Gohan live his life (while Gokhan exhibits self awareness that he is a blasphemy to existence and was brought only to stop Buu, he wouldn't want to stick around any longer if he could help it). Shenron is gone… for good. There is no more Dragon Balls, the very thing that brought everyone together in the first place. It’s now a thing of the past, a good adventure to recall on. Goku stays dead, and accepts that his presence on Earth helped attract most of the baddies to Earth. Vegeta accepts his evil deeds as the Prince of All Saiyans but still retains that “you’re better than I am, Son Goku” speech, just way earlier than usual in the story. Gohan accepts that if he kept training, he wouldn’t have gotten high on that Mystic powerup and the DB’s would’ve still been available. He now gets serious to train and is the new protector of Earth. Also Mr Satan gets the credit for helping the spirit bomb, there's gotta be a good thing for the Satan fans out there. And maybe Uub shows up, Idk. I know it isn’t too much of a radical change from the actual Buu Saga, but I went with “conclude everyone’s story” approach as well as cutting off from the Intequel DBS. Haven’t seen GT either so… Idk much about it. DBM could happen as an alternate universe, call this one Universe 21 (ZA REAL DBZ WARUDO) and Universe 18 the “alternate.” Grim fate for Vegeta to never return, Goku used up his 24 hours, and the DB’s are gone for good. /End DBZ. |
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