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Post by Kaio del Norte on Sept 15, 2016 17:52:23 GMT
Just a thought. If Babidi gets killed do his 'slaves' get freed? It always seemed unfair to me that Dabra and the others needed to die as they were not that evil and it was all Babidi's fault.
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Post by Kaio del Norte on Sept 15, 2016 18:29:08 GMT
I mean. We never saw Dabra not being under Babidi's control so we don't really know he actually is... Except that one scene in DBZ where he's in heaven, hangin' out with Chi-Chi, Bulma and Videl and they're desesperately looking for Gohan and Dabra starts dreaming about finding the true love. LOL! Still Enma had sent him to Heaven in order to punish him so he might be an ass without being evil. Unless he completely changes after meeting the ladies in heaven. LOL! again.
Besides that it is implied that he never interfered with the mortal world even though he's more powerful than the remaining Kaioshin and would be pretty much unstoppable. Also South Kaioshin and him don't seem to be on such bad terms.
So couldn't have Trunks killed only Babidi in DBS? His death seemed unfair to me.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 15, 2016 21:16:31 GMT
From what I gathered Babidi's minions were some of the worst of the worst in the universe given how Supreme Kai's reaction to all of them were. I assumed that even without Babidi's control that they were all still evil and cruel in their own right. There is also the fact that Goku and company couldn't advance through the ship without killing the fighter on the level, so it was a pragmatic reason to it as well. We don't know enough about Dabura to say he wasn't evil or good. Like you said the only reason he got into Heaven was because Enma/Yemma thought he would enjoy Hell. Heaven was supposed to be a form of punishment for him. That implies he committed enough sins to be deemed worthy of Hell. He probably wasn't too nice of a guy to begin with.
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Post by Axalon on Sept 15, 2016 21:25:02 GMT
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that yes, Dabura, who was the Demon King of the Demon Realm, the antithesis of the Supreme Kais, is evil.
As for DBS, killing Dabura was necessary. Future Trunks does not tolerate opponents out of misguided pride or looking for a good fight as Vegeta and Goku do. It also stands to reason that Dabura would protect Babadi at every turn. Trunks would *have* to go through Dabura. Even if he somehow succeeded in killing just Babadi, this still risks having a Demon King stronger than the Androids loose on the Earth. The only logical outcome for that fight to end was that either Dabura dies, or Trunks does.
Being sent to Heaven as punishment was because being sent to Hell wouldn't be much of a punishment for the Demon King at all.
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Post by kinnikuman on Sept 16, 2016 7:42:02 GMT
Could the sacred mist (If canon, not sure) be used to stop Babidi's mind control. I want to use it as a way to have a Dabura arc in universe 9.
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Post by GreatWyrmGold on Sept 16, 2016 13:21:05 GMT
Just a thought. If Babidi gets killed do his 'slaves' get freed? It always seemed unfair to me that Dabra and the others needed to die as they were not that evil and it was all Babidi's fault. Dabra was the king of demons, which means he was either evil or a major cog in the divine bureaucracy. Either way, no great loss. But on a serious note...there's no way to tell, but I can't imagine that his slaves would follow the orders of a corpse. So couldn't have Trunks killed only Babidi in DBS? His death seemed unfair to me. If he knew how all of that worked, and could think of a way to kill only Babidi without his minions hurting anyone else either before or after his death, sure. Big ifs.
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Post by jkrevan on Sept 17, 2016 1:16:23 GMT
Dabura is entirely evil.. but yes, ithink Killing Babidi breaks the mind control, but i doubt it would change the slaves much, they had to be evil in the 1st place to be taken over.
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Post by whatever on Sept 28, 2016 1:34:53 GMT
Just a thought. If Babidi gets killed do his 'slaves' get freed? It always seemed unfair to me that Dabra and the others needed to die as they were not that evil and it was all Babidi's fault. Do you want to make a list of all the unfair things in DBZ? -Vegeta training his ass off and always losing to opponents who never trained (Freeza, Eighteen, Cell, Buu) -Goku being blamed by Chichi for Gohan being kidnapped by Piccolo, even though he was dead at that point -Krillin spending his days screwing the hot chick (Eighteen) while Tien trains his ass off, yet Krillin still being the strongest human -Androids being kidnapped/abused by Gero, not getting help by anyone, going insane and still being killed in the end as if they were totally responsible for their deeds -Cell spending the first 24 years of his life with subliminal ''kill Goku, destroy everything'' messages, yet being sent to Hell as if he's fully responsible for his deeds -Freeza growing up with the ''you're born to be a king, you can kill anybody you want, no big deal'' teachings, yet still being punished as if he's fully responsible for his deeds
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Post by jkrevan on Sept 28, 2016 1:48:54 GMT
Just a thought. If Babidi gets killed do his 'slaves' get freed? It always seemed unfair to me that Dabra and the others needed to die as they were not that evil and it was all Babidi's fault. Do you want to make a list of all the unfair things in DBZ? -Vegeta training his ass off and always losing to opponents who never trained (Freeza, Eighteen, Cell, Buu) -Goku being blamed by Chichi for Gohan being kidnapped by Piccolo, even though he was dead at that point -Krillin spending his days screwing the hot chick (Eighteen) while Tien trains his ass off, yet Krillin still being the strongest human -Androids being kidnapped/abused by Gero, not getting help by anyone, going insane and still being killed in the end as if they were totally responsible for their deeds -Cell spending the first 24 years of his life with subliminal ''kill Goku, destroy everything'' messages, yet being sent to Hell as if he's fully responsible for his deeds -Freeza growing up with the ''you're born to be a king, you can kill anybody you want, no big deal'' teachings, yet still being punished as if he's fully responsible for his deeds I was always under the impression Tien was the strongest human, Pretty much the whole series.
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Post by GreatWyrmGold on Sept 28, 2016 3:12:12 GMT
I was always under the impression Tien was the strongest human, Pretty much the whole series. I'm under the impression that that's a minority opinion. And that there's WoG explicitly stating that Krillin was the strongest human. And that that small injustice is nothing compared to how both are weaker, after training for their entire lives, than a couple of kids who train a little with their big brother/distant father.
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Post by jkrevan on Sept 29, 2016 18:20:17 GMT
I really take WoG on dragonball with a grain of salt.. i mean... Toriyama forgot stuff about his own series....
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Post by Ashanark on Sept 29, 2016 18:54:32 GMT
I really take WoG on dragonball with a grain of salt.. i mean... Toriyama forgot stuff about his own series.... Not to mention there's a few other evidences as well of Tien being stronger: --There has not been a point in Krillin's life where he's been shown as stronger than Tien. Tien was stronger when he was a bad guy, he was stronger in the Piccolo Jr. tournament. --Tien was able to damage Nappa without using a Destructo Disk. --When Androids 19 and 20 showed up, Goku took Piccolo and Tien to go fight them, and had Krillin, Gohan, and Yamcha go away. --Tien was able to stall Semi-Perfect Cell, Krillin couldn't. --Tien could deflect a blast from Buutenks, and since that blast was aimed at Gohan, it was probably strong enough to damage Gohan. So Tien deflected a blast from a higher-than-Mystic-tier bad guy. --Tien is actively training all the time, whereas Krillin retired in-between Cell and Buu arcs (hence the hair.) Seeing that Toriyama forget about Launch, Super Saiyan 2 (he drew SS3 when asked about it once), the rule that the Dragon Balls can only revive people killed within the year, Gohan's mystic upgrade (he had to be reminded about that for Battle of Gods), and that Bra was born before Pan (or that Bra was born at all), I believe his Word of God only if it makes sense. And it doesn't make sense for Krillin to be stronger than Tien. On-topic: apparently Vegeta kept his strength boost from Babidi after he was brought back to life, since his SS2 was just as strong against Kid Buu as it was against Fat Buu. So at least the power-boost part of the mind-control sticks after death. Then again, the people Dabura turned to stone were transformed back when Dabura died, so maybe the mind-control would go away when Babidi was killed.
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 29, 2016 20:15:40 GMT
I really take WoG on dragonball with a grain of salt.. i mean... Toriyama forgot stuff about his own series.... Not to mention there's a few other evidences as well of Tien being stronger: --There has not been a point in Krillin's life where he's been shown as stronger than Tien. Tien was stronger when he was a bad guy, he was stronger in the Piccolo Jr. tournament. --Tien was able to damage Nappa without using a Destructo Disk. --When Androids 19 and 20 showed up, Goku took Piccolo and Tien to go fight them, and had Krillin, Gohan, and Yamcha go away. --Tien was able to stall Semi-Perfect Cell, Krillin couldn't. --Tien could deflect a blast from Buutenks, and since that blast was aimed at Gohan, it was probably strong enough to damage him seriously. So Tien deflected a blast from a higher-than-Mystic-tier bad guy. --Tien is actively training all the time, whereas Krillin retired in-between Cell and Buu arcs (hence the hair.) Seeing that Toriyama forget about Launch, Super Saiyan 2 (he drew SS3 when asked about it once), the rule that the Dragon Balls can only revive people killed within the year, Gohan's mystic upgrade (he had to be reminded about that for Battle of Gods), and that Bra was born before Pan (or that Bra was born at all), I believe his Word of God only if it makes sense. And it doesn't make sense for Krillin to be stronger than Tien. On-topic: apparently Vegeta kept his strength boost from Babidi after he was brought back to life, since his SS2 was just as strong against Kid Buu as it was against Fat Buu. So at least the power-boost part of the mind-control sticks after death. Then again, the people Dabura turned to stone were transformed back when Dabura died, so maybe the mind-control would go away when Babidi was killed. To be fair when Krillin got hidden power unlocked on Namek I think he surpassed Tien up for a bit. I'm sorry, but I don't buy into DB fandom idea that Piccolo, Yamecha, Tien, and Chaozu made these huge increases on King Kai's planet in six days. Maybe by the time they came back Tien had made some big improvements, but I don't buy that in those six days they were there on Namek that they made the same increases Goku made. True Goku's increases were still remarkable in a short period of time, but he still had 2 or 3 months. The only thing to support they made huge increases during that time was the filler where they beat the Ginyu Force. That has enough problems since it implies King Kai is stronger than them, despite him already admitting he was weaker than Vegeta and Nappa back in the Saiyan arc. Tri-Beam is the same boat as Destructo Disk. It uses the user's life force as oppose to ki, which is why its so powerful and allowed Tien to overcome enemies more powerful than him. I don't think it is fair to count it toward Tien's actual power anymore than Kaioken being counted toward Goku's overall power. Don't get me wrong they are useful and powerful techniques, but they aren't exactly techniques that depend on the user's ki level like Kamehamaha is. Tri-Beam was the only reason he damaged Nappa, the same way Destructo Disk would be the only thing Krillin had to damage Nappa. In fact Tri-Beam is the only reason Tien did most of the feats on your list, such as stall Semi-Imperfect Cell and deflect Buu's blasts. I don't agree with Tien being taken with Goku as indication he was stronger than Krillin. True he asked Krillin to get Yamecha out of there, but I don't think he left Krillin there is a indication he was weaker. Your argument implies Krillin, Gohan, and Yamecha were all left behind because they were the weakest, while Tien and Piccolo went with Goku because they were the strongest Z-fighters barring Vegeta at the time. That makes sense for Piccolo, but I can't say Tien was stronger than Gohan. The kid made huge leaps on Namek and trained with Goku and Piccolo, while Tien trained with Chaozu. This the same arc Gohan goes Super Saiyan. He must be very strong at this point. I don't necessarily think that is a good indication of strength levels for the characters. I would argue Goku asked Krillin to take Yamecha because Tien is more prideful. He is not Vegeta proud, but he was always a prideful warrior, certainly more so than Krillin. Krillin was more likely to go without argument to get Yamecha help. Tien might not have gone without argument. After all part of the reason he went to help Piccolo with droids and Cell was being fed up of sitting on the sidelines and not being useful (which to his credit was very helpful), but still at least a bit of pride issue. I could be wrong, but it just an example of how its not all about power that went into that decision of who would take Yamecha. I do agree that Tien continued to train while Krillin stopped fighting is a good argument for why he is stronger. I wouldn't be surprised if he was stronger than Krillin, but I do also think if it was also true that Krillin was stronger due to power up the Grand Elder gave him giving him a edge that Tien might not have been able to surpass. I think it is too close to call with these two and ultimately moot, since Uub is without a doubt the strongest human thanks to retaining the potential he had in his previous life as Buu. I wanted to throw my hat into this debate. Also I accidentally liked my post when trying to edit it. I just wanted to throw that out there, so I wouldn't look like a complete narcissist.
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