Bra (unmajinized) vs Kefla

Yeah, what Conqueror Geng said.

Saiyan Beyond God stopped being a thing when Super Saiyan God became its own form that Goku and Vegeta could use at will. Realistically, the likes of Frost, Caulifla or Cabba are NOT anywhere close to being on godly levels and are more in line with traditional DBZ levels in terms of SS1, SS2, etc.

Vegito, whether DBZ or DBM, would completely destroy Caulifla.

gogeta4869 how the hell did you manage to write such a extended post without even addressing ANY of the points we made?

Bruh, Frost is a weakling. Are you forgetting Master Roshi almost gave him a run for his money in the ToP? So basically almost EVERYONE who participated in the ToP are near God levels? LOLOLOL.

If SSJ2 Cabba (and Caulifla) are stronger than Vegetto, then that fat U4 character is at Vegetto level too?

What about characters like Dyspo? Gohan was handling him really well. And Dyspo on the other hand was handling Golden Freeza very well. Is Gohan above Vegetto level too, despite a few arcs ago he could barely turn SSJ?

What about the U11 girl who almost defeated Caulifla and Kale with that dimensional prison thing? Is she Vegetto level too?

What about this Basil guy from U9? He sure as hell is stronger than the fat woman which forced Cabba go SSJ2. I don't think Cabba (or Caulifla) would have been able to deal with him even with SSJ2. Maybe not even together. And Basil isn't even that much above Majin Vegeta or SSJ2 Teen Gohan given how he fared vs. Mr Buu (without Kid Buu in him)

Oh yes Frost is a weakling even though he fought in tournament where he specifically had to hold himself back from killing his opponent.

Also Frost was toying with Roshi and was slapping around.


As matter of fact his plan revolved around Roshi being healthy enough to pull off the mafuba to turn it against Vegeta in order to get his revenge on Vegeta for the defeat he suffered at his hand in the U6 tournament.

I should also remind you that that weakling was overpowering Someone much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in his third form.



As for your comment not everyone is god level seeing as Goku and Vegeta only used SSB and SSG against certain characters like Jiren Toppo and Dyspo, Hit but by the point ToP roles around Base Goku and Vegeta are so strong that anyone who can keep up with them in Base or SSJ is already far above pretty much everything in Z.

By mid DBS Base Goku and Vegeta were strong enough to stomp Gotenks.

Lowballing hard from the end of the u6 tournament arc to the end of the Zamasu arc Goku got at least 10X stronger gone off of the fact that he only needed SSB to keep up with Hit in their rematch whereas before he needed SSBKKX10 to go toe to toe with Hit.

Now how strong is Base Buu arc Vegito exactly?

We have no idea you know why?

He didn’t do a god damn thing all we know is that he is weaker than Buuhan hence why he went SSJ as soon as he was born.

Buuhan himself is roughly 3 to 4 times stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks seeing as Super Buu is equal to Gotenks and Buu arc Ultimate Gohan is less than twice as powerful as Gotenks because he destroyed Super Buu but got destroyed by Buutenks.

As for your point any character who can keep up with ToP SSJ2 Cabba is logically stronger than Z Vegito unless you have proof that Z Base Vegito scales as high mid to end DBS characters?

All we have about him is one guide stating vaguely that he is stronger than Buu arc SSJ3 Goku ( who is still massively weaker than Gotenks BTW) and that he can turn SSJ that’s all.

As for how Basil would do against SSJ2 Caulifla or SSJ2 Cabba he would logically be stomped, SSJ2 Caulifla was able to hang with the likes of early ToP SSJ2 Goku and later post first UIO SSJ2 Goku, Goku in base was shown to stomp the likes of SSJ3 Gotenks two arcs prior to the ToP or are you seriously going to argue that Goku went from being that strong in base to being in the same tier as his Buu arc self as an SSJ2 even though he got stronger throughout the story and not weaker?

Finally why are you talking about Dyspo and ToP Gohan as if they were absolute weaklings?

Dyspo was shown to be capable of overwhelming Hit for while until Hit figured him out and in his super speed mode he was faster than Golden Freeza he is a character whose strongest attribute is his speed but in terms of raw power even he acknowledges that he is outclassed by the likes of Golden Freeza however, he still has far more raw power than anyone in Z seeing as his attacks were still hurting the likes of Hit, early ToP SSG Goku, and Golden Freeza.

As for Gohan he overwhelmed pre ToP SSJ2 Goku who if we assume made absolutely no improvements whatsoever from the U6 tournament to the ToP is still more than 100X SSJ3 Gotenks and going off of the fact that Gohan’s hits were hurting Dyspo that should mean that he is in the same tier as early ToP SSG Goku however, he still not anywhere near early ToP SSB Goku tier seeing as he and 17 together were being schooled by base Toppo but still that’s more than what can be said about Buu arc Gohan who was stomped by what was essentially SSJ3 Gotenks KaiokenX2.
Just because they both used the ultimate power up does not mean that Z Gohan and DBS Gohan are equal.

DBS Manga Ultimate Gohan tied Manga Kefla a potara fusion between two saiyans stronger than Buu arc Goku and Vegeta are you still going to somehow lowball that Ultimate Gohan to his 16 year old self from the Buu arc?

As for Dyspo vs Gohan.

Let’s not forget that the main reason Gohan did as well as he did against Dyspo was because Golden Freeza limited Dyspo movement by trapping him in a cage with Gohan it was made pretty clear that if it weren’t for that Dyspo would’ve overwhelmed Gohan with his speed hence why Gohan sacrificed himself to eliminate Dyspo before he could get loose.

And I don’t see how Gohan barley being able to turn SSJ two arcs prior should impact his power in the ToP seeing as by the time we got to the ToP he was able to turn SSJ2 with no issues whatsoever suggesting that he did train off screen like he said he would plus like with every character that needed to be relevant in the arc they were supposed to be a fighter in in he got a massive nonsensical power up and he isn’t the only one who did that nor was he the last

Goku went from Solar system plus in SSJ3 to universal in SSG and later SSJ at the end of BoG.

Freeza went from being manhandled by the likes of Namek arc SSJ Goku to being capable of dominating SSB Goku in the RoF arc with just 4 months of training.

Future Trunks went from being weaker than Base Goku Black to somehow being strong enough to slice MZ in half someone who I may remind you was going toe to toe with SSB Vegito prior to that happening.







17 went from being fodder to the likes of imperfect Cell ( post human absorption) to being able to somewhat hang with likes of Base Toppo without instantly being obliterated placing him solidly at SSG tier.

DBS Broly went from being equal to Base Vegeta ( even though them being equal doesn’t make much sense since Broly was trained by an old dude who had power level of 4,000 and Vegeta was trained by literally the strongest being in the universe and Vegeta went through all the stuff that he went through from Z all the way to DBS while Broly was stranded on his planet for 40 years) to being so strong that an post ToP SSB fusion was needed to deal with him and whats even ridiculous is that Broly didn’t even know what SSJ was prior to meeting Goku and Vegeta and did I mention that his power jump took place in a little bit over an hour?

Non of the four mentioned power ups above make a lick of sense and I don’t particularly like how strong those characters got out of nowhere but hey just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean I can ignore it writes can do whatever they want in their stories despite how nonsensical it may be.

I read what you said you are just theorizing that since Goku somehow went god in the ToP that somehow meant he became weaker or more accurately was retconned to be weaker correct?
First there isn’t evidence to suggest Goku that Goku was retconned to be weaker.

Second it doesn’t make sense that Goku lost SSG and only got it back in the ToP since logically Goku had to have SSG ever since RoF or else he wouldn’t have been able to turn SSB aka SSGSS.

As SSB literally was stated to be going SSJ on top of SSG.

Goku even says that he tapped into SSG on his own ( which wasn’t the case when he first got the form in BoG ) and then went beyond that to achieve SSB.




As for the copy Vegeta arc being filler DBS doesn’t have that seeing as it’s not based off a manga like Dragonball/Z was furthermore, the events of that arc were directly referenced in the Zamasu so as far as the anime is concerned it’s canon.




As for Cabba = Vegeta.

Cabba did mention that to Caulifla that turning SSJ for the first time can be draining he was also quite surprised by how much power she was able to draw out with it being her first time transforming and all even though Z didn’t mention those things but it wouldn’t be the first time DBS changed established things from the original manga.

imgur.com/a/2PikCg1

Regardless even if he was he should still be somewhat relative to Vegeta or else he wouldn’t have been able to hold his own against in a beam clash which is more than can be said about Gotenks who was said to be a mosquito compared to Base Vegeta.

Furthermore, by the time we get to the ToP Goku was already at least 10X more powerful than he was in the u6 tournament seeing as back then roughly a year prior he needed SSBKKX10 to compete against Hit but in their rematch he managed to fight Hit to a drew using only SSB.

Moreover, as the tournament went on he only got stronger and Caulifla was shown to be capable of hanging with him when they were both using SSJ2.





And since ToP Cabba should be relative to ToP Caulifla ( with her being probably the stronger of the two by their own admission) that means he most have surpassed u6 tournament Vegeta ( not counting SSG or SSB obviously) or else they wouldn’t be relative to each other at all.

Goku using a simple SS1 against Frost isn't evidence? Or is that because "Nuh-uh, Frost is just on god levels"? 

Now before you start mashing away on the keyboard, hear me out:


Not quite. This is the exact non-dubbed wording:



"Saiyan with the power of a SSG", or in your instance "tapped into that power on my own" is in reference to Saiyan Beyond God, which is literally a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God. This is why him getting SSG later retcons this. Otherwise it's saying that he's got the power of a SSG in his base form, but then he double-dips and gets the power of SSG *AGAIN* by transforming into that form. Which is ludicrous.

This is all the result of a production mistake. Originally, things were going to be reset with the advent of god ki and they were going to have a "base" form, seen here in RoF to be equivalent to SSG without actually using said form, and then SSB. At some point they decided to re-add the classic Super Saiyan forms, and then later added SSG back as its own transformation. Thus the Saiyan Beyond God form and all the power scaling that it implies from this point onwards is null and void as you're using a method of power scaling that isn't being used anymore in the series.



I will grant that it's canon to the anime--but this does not mean it isn't a filler arc to DBS as a whole. Toriyama sets out plotlines for both the anime and manga to follow and we see this reoccur with consistent arcs between the two like Battle of Gods, the Tournament of Power, etc. The manga doesn't have a Copy-Vegeta arc so it isn't a "real" DBS plotline as far as being created by the series creator. Likewise the manga's Moro Arc is the same thing as the Copy-Vegeta arc, but for the manga.

Furthermore just because it was canon to the anime doesn't mean it can't have been retconned later, as that is the point of a retcon, to change canon.



Counter-point: Vegeta could've simply held back in the beam clash and his claim of being equal was meant to rile Cabba up and force him to transform (which he didn't know Cabba was incapable of at the time).

What then? Combine that with Vegeta laughing off Cabba's ki barrage, brushing the entire thing aside with a wave of his hand, and then taking a punch to the face completely unfazed, and it's blatantly obvious that they aren't equals in any measure.



What do you mean not counting SSG? I thought we were including the base Saiyan Beyond God power into this, which let me remind you is a base Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. So suddenly Base Cabba is NOT equal to Base Vegeta?

>Goku using a simple SS1 against Frost isn't evidence? Or is that because "Nuh-uh, Frost is just on god levels"?

No it’s not since Frost was a newly introduced character who can be as powerful as the writers intend him to be its not like he had any prior feats to suggest he is a weakling like you guys claim him to be.

He overwhelmed U6 arc tournament Base Goku who was RoF Goku with 3 years of training in the RoST and RoF Goku was already stated to be above end of SSJ BoG Goku who was stated to be equal to his SSG that was fighting Beerus earlier and directly after the tournament characters that were on the same tier as u6 tournament Base Goku mopped the floor with one of the Buu arc’s top tier characters.

Also you guys through around the term god level too freely Frost may have been stronger than BoG SSG Goku but that doesn’t mean shit because that version of Goku was the lowest of the low on this supposed god scale being unable to force Beerus to use a mere 1% of his power and fast forward to the ToP the first character who was actually stated to be on the level of the god’s blinked away Beginning of ToP SSBKKX20 Goku like he was nothing but a fly and that was prior to him showing a hint of his true power according to his own god of destruction.

It just means Frost is above everyone in Z who are just fodder by this point in the story much like everyone who was top tier in OG Dragon ball became fodder to the first antagonist of Z who himself became fodder by the the time his two other saiyan buddies showed up being reduced to the level of their henchmen.

Dragon ball does that all the time especially by the time Z rolled around at the start of Namek arc one of the first characters to be easily obliterated was Cui who was on the same level as Saiyan arc Vegeta the precious big bad.

Now onto the whole saiyan beyond god thing.

First things first the whole saiyan beyond god name only was ever used in Dragon ball heroes which definitely not canon.

The Movie version of RoF alludes to the same concept in some promotional material but it’s also not canon anymore.

www.shonengamez.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/kjkYQkH.png

Second nobody really knew why Goku became as strong as he did after his SSG time ran out against Beerus Beerus himself didn’t know why and he only came up with an explanation on the flay in order to save himself embarrassment after Goku called his godhood into question.
imgur.com/a/JrQ2wM0

Third Goku and Vegeta always had access to classic SSJ forms even after BoG as far as the anime is concerned it was pointed out in RoF the reason they didn’t use them was because they wanted to focus on getting stronger in their Base forms as was pointed out by Whis in episode 18.


imgur.com/a/N0W0fau

>Counter-point: Vegeta could've simply held back in the beam clash and his claim of being equal was meant to rile Cabba up and force him to transform

Had Vegeta wanted to rile Cabba wouldn’t make much more sense to mock Cabba about how much more powerful he is than him? That’s definitely more in line with Vegeta’s character he isn’t the type to hand out compliments to his opponents.
As a matter of fact that’s exactly what copy Vegeta did to SSJ3 Gotenks mocked him for how weak he was and then stomped him and we knew that copy Vegeta didn’t only have the same power level as real Vegeta but he also copied his personality and traits even going as far to call Trunks his son and Goku Kakarot.

> What then? Combine that with Vegeta laughing off Cabba's ki barrage, brushing the entire thing aside with a wave of his hand, and then taking a punch to the face completely unfazed, and it's blatantly obvious that they aren't equals in any measure.

It’s worth noting that Cabba stated that turning SSJ was a draining thing when he was talking to Caulifla and he was also surprised that she was able to drew as much power as she did upon first transforming.

Which is also backed up by the the original manga when everyone marvels at M/FP SSJ.

i.imgur.com/WlJ3EYh.png

Vegeta on the other had plenty of experience with SSJ from and unlike a newly transformed SSJ his SSJ doesn’t burn his energy or stamina anywhere as much.

> Toriyama sets out plotlines for both the anime and manga to follow and we see this reoccur with consistent arcs between the two like Battle of Gods, the Tournament of Power, etc. The manga doesn't have a Copy-Vegeta arc so it isn't a "real" DBS plotline as far as being created by the series creator.

Sure Toriyama sets out the plot-line but unlike with the OG manga Toei and Toyotaro can add whatever they want such as Vegito Blue he wasn’t originally supposed to be in that arc at all but the anime included him anyway and the manga followed suit despite the fact that it wasn’t a plot-line from the original author and yet his appearance in that arc was 100% canon.

The anime completely skipped over SSJ Goku Black even though he was part of Toriyama’s outline.

Kale and Caulifla weren’t part of the original draft for the ToP it was Toei that came up with Kale in order to capitalize on OG Broly’s popularity after they showed her to Toriyama he came up with Caulifla to go along with her.

Ultra instinct Omen/Sign wasn’t a thing that Toriyama came up with that was all Toei’s idea and its canon all the same.

>Furthermore just because it was canon to the anime doesn't mean it can't have been retconned later, as that is the point of a retcon

Well until you show proof that their base forms were retconned from being at least far far above SSJ3 Gotenks to weaker than Namek arc Final Form Freeza then you don’t really have much to back up the claims you’re making here

Like show them getting stomped by or at least stated to be equal to or weaker than mid or high Buu arc character or at least characters were confirmed to be at that level because that’s what would’ve happened had Buu arc Base Goku attempted to fight characters who are that strong.

Prior to the ToP Base Goku held his own against suppressed DBS Ultimate Gohan and ToP Piccolo Buu arc Base Goku would’ve been one shotted by both had he attempted to fight the heavily suppressed Buu arc versions of those characters as his base form at that point in time was nowhere near close Namek arc FF Freeza as was stated in early BoG by Beerus where he said that Early BoG Base Goku wouldn’t be able to beat Freeza even though early BoG Goku was much more powerful than his Buu arc self as evidenced by the fact that early BoG SSJ3 Goku gave Beerus a much more entertaining fight than every other Z fighter with exception of enraged SSJ2 Vegeta by Beerus’ own admission.




> What do you mean not counting SSG? I thought we were including the base Saiyan Beyond God power into this, which let me remind you is a base Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. So suddenly Base Cabba is NOT equal to Base Vegeta?

Simple.
U6 tournament SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta ( they have much more experience with the form to the point where the drawbacks are way less severe) > U6 SSJ Cabba > Fourth form Frost > Third form Frost > U6 tournament Base Goku and Vegeta > = Base Cabba > RoF Base Goku and Vegeta ( stated by Beerus at the very beginning of RoF > end of Base Goku ( he broke his limits and surpassed his end of BoG SSJ self as evidenced by the fact he stopped Beerus’s sphere of destruction something that his end of BoG SSJ failed to do) > End of BoG SSJ Goku = BoG SSG Goku ( Goku was stated to suffer no power lose from losing his SSG form and reverting to back SSJ)> everyone from the Buu arc.

By the time we get to the ToP Base Cabba must have surpassed U6 tournament Base Vegeta seeing as he was comparable to ToP Base Caulifla how can hold her against ToP Goku when they are both utilizing the same form early ToP Goku is anywhere from being more than 10X more powerful than his U6 tournament self ( based on how he fought Hit to a drew in their rematch) or 100X( based on the fact that Base Goku Black held his own against Post U6 tournament SSJ2 Goku by the end of the arc both SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta surpassed a much more powerful version of beginning of Zamasu arc SSR Goku Black individually so that means their base forms must have become stronger than his)







Meaning that if ToP Cabba fought u6 tournament Vegeta he should logically have the advantage as long as they fight each other in the same form.

Now to address your other reply.
>This was also the same guy too scared to fight Frieza and said he was too much for him earlier on.

Later he was shown to be capable of handling that very same Freeza both in his final form and Golden Form.





>The ToP is just inconsistent.

Even still the majority of Dyspo’s showings against the likes of Golden Freeza, Hit, and early ToP SSG/SSB Goku place him far above anyone from the Buu arc therefore anyone who can inflict damage on him should be far above anyone from the Buu arc or are we going to sit here and argue that any character from the Buu arc would be able to inflict any sort of damage on the 3 characters mentioned above?

>The fact that Gohan can keep up with her suggests Buutenks-tier.

Nope that suggests that Gohan is much much more powerful than he was in the Buu arc.

He kept up with a potara fusion of two characters much more powerful than Buu arc Base Goku and Base Vegeta especially Kale whose Base form was capable of moving so fast that she managed to snatch the pendant from SSJ Cabba essentially replicating what SSJ2 Kid Gohan did against Perfect Cell when he got the senzu bean bag.

If a potara fusion between the much weaker Buu arc Goku and Vegeta was stomping Buuhan into oblivion in his SSJ form why would SSJ Kefla be just Buutenks tier?

Furthermore, we have this nice little statement made about Kefla by Vados.
And this is after she has seen multiple characters who can literally blink Buutenks out of existence both in the tournament itself and the previous tournament between U6 and U7.

i.imgur.com/80OzZ1U.jpg
Are we going to still pretend that Manga Kefla and Gohan wouldn’t stomp everybody from the Buu arc?

> but because he had to keep the Monaka costume intact and hide his identity

He stooped giving a damn about that half way through the fight when he throw away Vegeta and Piccolo to continue fighting.
He sure as hell wasn’t giving a damn about keeping his identity a secret when he allowed his aura to flair up in his fight against Goku.

And beyond that there is still base Goku Black who at the beginning of the Zamasu arc was shown to be capable of holding his own against SSJ2 Goku by the end of the arc both Goku and Vegeta surpassed Goku Black after he himself became much much more powerful as the arc went on are we still going argue that they’re still somehow weaker than Buu arc tier characters?

Because it’s getting ridiculous at this point.

We have u6 Base Goku arc tier characters stomping Gotenks right after the u6 tournament arc took place.

And then we have how much stronger Goku Black was than post U6 tournament Goku and Vegeta and the fact that by the time we get to the ToP Goku and Vegeta were already much stronger than Black and only continued to become stronger as the tournament went on.

We have pre ToP Base Goku being able to hold his own against both suppressed DBS Ultimate Gohan and DBS Piccolo whereas Buu arc Base Goku would’ve been one shotted by post 3 year time skip Android arc Piccolo.

Meanwhile, he claimed that by the time the U6 tournament took place Base Goku and Vegeta being ridiculously strong was thrown in the pin even though as I pointed out in my reply to him Base Goku and Vegeta were shown to be capable of stomping SSJ3 Gotenks AFTER the events of the U6 tournament.

>Furthermore, Frost did NOT overwhelm Goku. He explicitly poisoned him because he could NOT overwhelm Goku. Way to get basic facts wrong.

You’re the one who deserves the Congratulations due to your amazing ability to read.

I said Frost overwhelmed u6 tournament Base Goku.

Frost had to use the poison on U6 tournament SSJ Goku.

As for Saiyan beyond god I said before and I will say it’s a thing that came from a non canon card game.

>WE are throwing it around too freely when you're saying SSG doesn't mean shit? Come on

Again way to twist what I said to fit your narrative I said SSG Goku from BoG isn’t worth shit in the god scale seeing as even early ToP SSBKKX20 Goku who’s leaps and bounds above himself from was brushed aside like nothing by a Jiren that wasn’t using a hint of his true power and Jiren was the first character in the anime to be stated to be on the level of the gods of destruction who are the only gods who remotely relevant power wise and the guys who Goku was chasing after from of Super to currently.
So even if Frost is stronger than that version of Goku that doesn’t mean much since Base Goku was far beyond that level by RoF and only grow in strength rapidly as the series went on.

> It quite literally doesn't make sense. It's far more sensible that Frost is much weaker, which is why Goku himself was able to hold back to SS1, and why Frost felt the need to poison him.

It does when you actually pay attention to the show Base Goku outright admits that he wasn’t trying against Frost’s prior forms and once Frost is made aware of that he goes to his final from promoting Goku to go SSJ.

imgur.com/a/AYcuS9q

Which does show one mistake in my chain third form Frost isn’t above Base Goku but fourth form Frost is seeing as he made Goku go SSJ.

>This entire chain of logic breaks apart when you say BoG Goku failed to stop the Sphere of Destruction. If that had happened Earth would've blown up. Oh wait. He did stop it.

Again learn how to read.
I said that End of BoG SSJ Goku failed to stop the sphere of destruction watch your clip base Goku was the one who stopped it just like I said
>Don't believe me? Here's the clip of him doing it.
Good you can watch it yourself after you read what I typed correctly.

> Proof that Beerus is just bullshitting? Or is he making an educated guess based on his millennia of experience with god ki?

He literally says to Goku I don’t know what’s going and he himself asks Goku why he isn’t weaker now that SSG faded away once Goku is made aware of this he deflects the question back at Beerus who once again says I don’t know promoting Goku to ask him aren’t you a god? To which Beerus replies to by coughing and then coming up with an explanation on the fly and then they both ignore the issue and continue to fight.

> So draining that Vegeta doesn't even flinch?

Yes especially since Base Vegeta talked about base Cabba’s poor stamina after he kicked him away.

Furthermore, even if you don’t believe Base Cabba on Base Vegeta’s level his punch still caused Vegeta to spit out saliva which is more than can be said about SSJ3 Gotenks’ punches.

And by the time we got to the ToP Base Cabba definitely surpassed U6 tournament Base Vegeta because he was comparable to ToP Caulifla who held her own against ToP Goku who is way way more powerful than he was in U6 tournament.

>This is just batteboard number nonsense. SS2 Trunks also held his own against SS2 Goku to the point that Goku had to go SS3 on him. This is even better than a Buu Saga character. This is a CELL SAGA character. Is Future Trunks ALSO some SSG-tier person now?

Apparently he is or else he wouldn’t be able to do this.



Or are you going to claim that SSR Goku Black is somehow Cell arc tier now or that in a few days Trunks somehow went from Cell arc tier to being able to block hits from the likes of SSR Black?

Furthermore,prior to going to the past he survived dealing with Black for a year so he was definitely above Cell arc or Buu arc tier characters.

And finally when we get to the ToP Base Goku is shown to be capable of holding his own against suppressed DBS Ultimate Gohan and withstanding an explosion from Piccolo who by that point was stronger ToP SSJ2 Gohan who is much more powerful than his RoF self who was stronger than RoF Piccolo.


>It's even worse in the manga where it's implied SS2 Trunks is now on par with SS3 Goku!

Good for him anime Trunks blows him out of the water mid way through the arc not only being able somehow hold his own against SSR Goku Black as a mere SSJ2 but also gets a shiny new form that allows him to briefly overpower Black before the he gets another zenkai.

And by the end of the arc he somehow becomes powerful enough to slice Merged Zamasu in half by pulling a spirit bomb like attack out of ass and absorbing it.
>Once again assuming that they're weaker
Like U6 tournament Base Vegeta Base Caulifla defeated Base Cabba without even sustaining a scratch furthermore, Base Kale moved faster than SSJ Cabba can keep up so based on that there is nothing wrong with them being stronger than Buu arc Goku and Vegeta that is unless of course you believe Base Goku and Vegeta made absolutely no improvements whatsoever from the Buu arc to the U6 tournament?

imgur.com/a/GAA4oJL

> You can say actually use that quote from Vados with a straight face, knowing Jiren is a person that exists?

At that point Jiren didn’t show what he was truly capable of and we already saw Kale being capable of surprising MSSB Goku and suppressed Golden Freeza and Kefla can’t possibly be weaker than Kale based how fusion works she should far far stronger than one of her fuses.


i.imgur.com/Jly4YW2.jpg

One of the reasons this went as long as it did was because I had to reply to the both of you at first and then he took the liberty of replying on your behalf.

Second at the end of BoG it was already stated that SSJ Goku got an amp that made him as powerful as his SSG self that was fighting Beerus and RoF makes quite clear that they still have the ability to use SSJ but they choose not in order to improve their Base forms.
Third you said that they were retconned back to Buu arc tier at the U6 tournament but I countered that by saying that isn’t the case because Base Copy Vegeta floored SSJ3 Gotenks right after that arc.

And the feats shown afterwards still place those fooder tier characters far above Z levels of power such as Base Goku being able to go head head with Suppressed DBS Ultimate Gohan and Piccolo who by this point was stronger than ToP SSJ2 Gohan

One final Thing as far as I’m aware the official multipliers are SSJ 50X SSJ2 2X SSJ and SSJ3 4X SSJ2.

You want to ban me then do it.

First lets try ignoring broken DBS power scaling. Where meme that side character could be as strong as author intends them to be at the moment is true. Anime Kefla would win and I don't see how she would not. I am not even fan of her, she is bad character. Yet when it comes down she would stomp DBM Bra. DBS power scaling is broken but it clearly states that both Goku and Vegeta grew immensely in strength.

Also what does normal SSJ means? We know about different forms. Power Tier? So Buu Saga Goku SSJ is the same tier as Goku SSJ when he arrived from planet Yardrat? I am not even talking about TOP saga Goku who would handle his Buu saga SSJ if not SSJ2 with his base form.

DBM and DBS has two different limit approaches. DBM Goku and Vegeta don't differentiate that much in strength compared to their Buu Saga counterparts. DBS problem is not power scaling it is limit breaking approach. I agree with approach that Sayians if they want could break any limit if they want I try. I don't agree with it being just as easy as eating another slice of bread. Each limit should be harder to break. I genuinely disliked Mastered UI. UI in terms of looks is unique and different, yet for Goku somehow in just 48 minutes unlock it's mastered form is bad plot device. "But muhh, Whis basically trained Goku and Vegeta to achieve UI." Yes, he did but him and other Angels also trained Beerus and other gods of destruction. They are millions of years old but they still haven't mastered it. I get it, Goku is a prodigy and main character. But damn Toei first you make Goku and Vegeta OP and break power scaling by that. After that you introduce us to Jiren.