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Post by Argelios on Aug 13, 2019 6:57:52 GMT
So... a new chart. A famous one. 20 categories. (Open in a new tab to see full size)
-X axis refers to Duty and social awareness -Y axis refers to the contribution of the goodness of the world.
I won't be updating this chart a lot... since is subjective, but it has a black background so everyone can change it if they want. (Just change my nickname for yours)
Characters that don't appear according to me:
LAWFUL GOOD: The other 3 Kaioshins. SOCIAL GOOD: Pan, Uub, U12 Trunks, Heloites.
NEUTRAL GOOD: Ro Kaioshin. SOCIAL MORAL: Trunks, Goten, U18 Bra, U6 chicks, Tapion.
NEUTRAL MORAL: Piccolo. LAWFUL IMMORAL: U8 army.
SOCIAL IMMORAL: Bojack, Coola.
NEUTRAL IMMORAL: Zangya, Nappa, U10 Saiyans.
REBEL IMMORAL: Bujin REBEL EVIL: Androids CHAOTIC EVIL: Hatchiyack, Broly.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 7:22:47 GMT
I finally thought of a good Lawful Evil
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Post by Ashanark on Aug 13, 2019 20:41:10 GMT
Ooh, this is good! Great work on the graphic as usual but the thought put into it is excellent, too.
Out of curiosity, what's your reasoning behind Gohan being Social Moral and not Social Good? I know he isn't actively training to be a hero like Pan or Uub but he came off as one of the more moral Z-Fighters to me. As in, he seemed one of the few good guys who fought villains because they were doing WRONG THINGS, not just because they were a strong opponent or directly threatening his family. To put Goku as higher than Gohan on the goodness spectrum seems odd. I agree with Goten/Trunks/U18 Bra being Social Moral, though.
U13 Vegeta as Neutral Evil seems a bit harsh. I could see it for Saiyan and Namek Saga Vegetas--running around killing people, doing whatever he pleases, still tolerating Saiyan henchmen to a degree--but U13 Vegeta seems more patient. Less murderous. More accepting of inferiors and non-Saiyans. I'd put him Neutral Immoral with Nappa. Raditz I think is either True Neutral or Rebel Neutral.
I'd put Bojack as Rebel Immoral, if not Rebel Evil. He regularly kills his own men and his whole life revolved around fighting against authority and shaking things up. He's Frieza with more PL and less poise. Rebel Immoral would also contrast him nicely to the U6 girls opposing him, who you place at Social Moral.
U3 Bardock as a True Neutral makes a lot of sense. Hadn't thought of it that way but I think he's an excellent fit. Similarly, Vegito and Bra as Chaotic Moral and Rebel Neutral are spot-on.
Could you explain Ginyu as Rebel Immoral? Ginyu seems to be attracted to positions of leadership where he can tell people what to do, and it seems he works well with a team and treats his underlings pretty well. There always seems to be a social aspect to Ginyu: even during his brief time as Ginyu-Bra, he tried to ingratiate himself to the group and act as a family member. In DBM at least we see Ginyu posing with a little kid on Frieza's capitol planet so I always wondered if Ginyu wanted to be a hero (or at least loved) to some extent--he just couldn't commit to the whole "being good" thing.
Where would you put the Vargas? Most likely candidates are True Neutral or Social Neutral.
How about Hirudegarn? Many people would put him at Chaotic Evil but I think arguments could be made for True Neutral, especially with U4 Buu's thoughts about him. Perhaps he could take U13 Vegeta's spot as the Neutral Evil posterboy.
I will always see either Kid Buu or Broly as the main Chaotic Evils of Dragon Ball but Babidi is a pretty good fit too.
Lawful Evil... Hmm. DB is a bit short on Lawful Evil. I know people make arguments for Frieza and Zamasu being Lawful Evil but I disagree. Frieza doesn't care so much about order; he only has an organization because he is lazy. Fundamentally he's just a power-hungry tyrant who tells people what to do; I doubt he had much to do with the creation or running of the WTO. His soldiers and Cooler could be Social Immoral but Frieza is Neutral Immoral at best. Zamasu is also a Knight Templar who despises mortals for being chaotic but his actions are quite chaotic themselves: he slaughters all the gods, kills all his potential subjects, that sort of thing. If he actually wanted to control the minds of mortals to act as he saw fit that'd make him more of a Lawful Evil. Ironically, the villain who does do that, Baby in GT, is pretty clearly chaotic himself...
So for Dragon Ball I think the closest we could get to Lawful Evil would be General Blue, who not only looked like a Nazi but was quite hung up on order for the sake of order, people meeting his standards, stuff like that. Maybe Staff Officer Black, too. Shame the closest we got to a Red Ribbon universe in DBM was a minicomic.
I don't think XXI will be Lawful Evil when he's finally revealed. He has Chaotic Evil written all over him--just a more patient form of Chaotic Evil.
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Post by Argelios on Aug 13, 2019 23:19:55 GMT
Out of curiosity, what's your reasoning behind Gohan being Social Moral and not Social Good? I know he isn't actively training to be a hero like Pan or Uub but he came off as one of the more moral Z-Fighters to me. As in, he seemed one of the few good guys who fought villains because they were doing WRONG THINGS, not just because they were a strong opponent or directly threatening his family. To put Goku as higher than Gohan on the goodness spectrum seems odd. I agree with Goten/Trunks/U18 Bra being Social Moral, though. Well, that xD Now for real, Gohan is far from being a protector outside of his family. That was the main point in DBZ.
For example: If there's a big bad guy outside the universe in a far planet Gohan wouldn't move a finger, while Goku, Uub and Pan would. Gohan is also irresponsible and relies on Goku/Vegetto to solve things (he never trained after Cell saga and he got mystic for free). Characters like Uub and Pan train to become defenders. So there is that.
U9 are defenders since they revolve around a martial arts school, same with Heliors who are an intergalactic police. Goku can be a social weirdo but he still cares about doing good more than about getting a good fight (see his comments about Broly or about Babidi's revolt), at least in DBM he is kind of a hero. Gohan only acts when his status-quo feels threatened.
According to these dialogues: Bardock: No longer doing evil. Raditz: Will still act selfishly and evil but just where he lives.
Vegeta: Likes to "meaninglessly kill", "leads massacres". He also seems to have a fetiche about killing weaklings. Remember Bardock's empire was told to be "worse than Frieza's" according to the special, so I believe Vegeta's is even worse.
Raditz can't be neutral since Bardock is neutral, Raditz is still an immoral bastard. Fair point, you are right. That's because Ginyu changed since DBZ. DBZ Ginyu would be what you say. But DBM ginyu grew up to be an individualistic bastard. He doesn't seem to care about having an empire neither, he already had one on U8, but he didn't mind leaving U8 ("goodbye U8") to go to U16 because he wanted to try an stronger body. He just seems to like to try new things.
They don't seem to care about the safety of the tournament so... yeah exactly that. Hildegarn... is hard... he doesn't seem to enjoy killing according to U4 special. He just wants to be an statue, so I think True Neutral.
Yep, Janemba also, I just don't like these kind of one-dimensional villans.
Maybe XXI will be a Neutral Evil villan, he seems to have a purpose.
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Post by VoidSlayer on Aug 14, 2019 0:43:18 GMT
I'd put Broly more as just pure chaotic, as opposed to evil. Being evil requires you to want to kill, Broly appears more mindless then evil (When in the Legendary form). Of course in the U3 special he was definitely evil based on his actions whle not in that form.
Kid Buu is the purest form of Chaotic evil, more so then Babidi who will follow laws and rules when imposed on him.
If anything i'd label Dabura as Lawful evil, if only because he reminds me of a Devil, and in D&D a Devil is always Lawful evil.
I also think Piccolo would place similarity to Gast. He's lawful but not truly 'good'
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Post by fooshin on Aug 14, 2019 3:04:13 GMT
Duty and social awareness? Wow, D&D sure has changed a lot since I was a kid.
Nice chart btw.
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Post by fooshin on Aug 14, 2019 4:01:45 GMT
As far as dbm goes the only lawful evil characters I can think of are perhaps ginyu force members, including ginyu. Outside of dbm I'm thinking general blue and a few others in the RR army.
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Post by squirz96 on Aug 15, 2019 0:08:09 GMT
Waiting for Which DBM character are you test based on this.
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Post by SuperVegeta on May 3, 2020 3:15:55 GMT
Hm... In my eyes, a good Lawful Evil for DB would be Mercenary Tao. He follows a strict moral code: He does Evil for Money. He rarely goes out of his way to do evil things not associated with The job he’s been assigned to. He only kills those who get in his way of his assignment. He’s a perfect lawful evil in my eyes.
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