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Post by Gohan on Aug 18, 2019 22:35:39 GMT
One thing that seems to be taken for granted in DBM is that the stronger your parents, the stronger the child will be. To an extent, this makes sense. Parents with good genes are more likely to have children with good genes. But I think DBM takes this too far, at least when it comes to humans and saiyans.
When it comes to genetics, we can assume that saiyans tend to have good genes and that their children are more fit and have the potential to turn into a super saiyan. For strong humans, we can assume they will be fit. But to assume that they will be incredibly powerful is an altogether different thing. And this is one thing where I think Dragon ball Multiverse has a big problem.
Of course, to an extent the waters are muddied since it is hard to tell how much of an advantage one gets due to genetics. Since most characters train, their power can at least in part be explained by training. But there are some things that we do know. We know that Saiyans in base mode cannot be notably stronger than Frieza (Why exactly not? Is there some mechanism that forces Saiyans to transform when they have as much power as Frieza? This is already a point that I disagree with). In which case, why is U16 Bra special? Sure, Vegetto is incredibly strong so Bra has a lot of potential and she trains a lot. That explains her power. But why is her base on Cell games level? Does she not automatically transform when she exceeds Frieza's level? And if Super Saiyan power boost is incremental rather than a multiplier, why would a relatively fixed small boost be relevant for her at all? Is her transformation boost higher than those of other saiyans?
To be fair, U16 Bra trains a lot. But U18 Bra doesn't. At all. According to Salagir she has a power level of one million. She is a prime example of someone having high power (even if she can't use it normally) without actually doing anything to get it. You may say that the same was the case for Gohan but not really. Gohan only tapped into his potential. But he actually had to raise his power to reach one million. Whereas if U18 Bra simply learned how to control ki, she could easily surpass those who also know how to control ki but have less power like Videl. Or even Ginyu force members would have a hard time against someone less experienced but with 10 times the power level.
The theme of power inheritance is persistent (but not necessarily consistent) in DBM. Salagir tries to justify his decision by saying Goten and Trunks were very strong. But Goten and Trunks actually trained. On top of that, they both easily turned Super Saiyan. Shouldn't U18 Pan and U18 Bra then be able to easily turn into Super Saiyan as well? Is only power level inherited? Since Super Saiyan form is genetic (only available to saiyans), shouldn't affinity for easily achieving it be inherited rather than the power itself (if any should be inherited at all)? Power level on the other hand is simply energy, not to mention it varies and is not a fixed thing (making it hard to inherit it). Inheriting potential to an extent makes sense, inheriting transformations also, affinity for transforming with weaker emotional triggers makes sense but inheriting power (as in power level) makes less sense.
And lastly, how does inheritance even work? If indeed Goten inherited his father's power level then so did Gohan. Did Goku's genetic material change due to his transformation? In which case, didn't Gohan's change as well? Why is Pan not remarkably stronger than all other kids (except U16 Bra), especially since Gohan's power is significantly higher than either Goku's or Vegeta's?
I understand that Salagir can make any decisions in his own story. I am just not convinced that his decisions about power inheritance make sense. What do you think? Do you have similar views as Salagir or do you have your own disagreements? Where do you agree and where do you disagree with me?
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Post by Blaze on Aug 19, 2019 7:48:36 GMT
As an overall response, I think Salagir is taking a more Lamarckian form of genetics here.
I don't know exactly the mechanism that Salagir has chosen to justify base saiyans not getting stronger than Freeza, but imo they're weaker simply because they max out their potential before exceeding Freeza. That would then vary with a saiyans potential, with Bra having way more than most saiyans.
Goten and Trunks actually training is a reason they're stronger, able to use ki properly, and transform into Super Saiyans where U18 Bra lacks all those things. Regardless of Goten and Trunks training though, there's no reason they should be anywhere near as strong as they are unless something strange is going on. And one possibility of that is power, (and the Super Saiyan transformation to an extent) being passed down.
Now I'm not sure if this is supposed to be something exclusive to half-saiyans, saiyans, or if it just applies to everyone.
There are a couple possibilities for U18 Pan. Firstly, she's the only quarter-saiyan we know of, so this could have an effect on her power. Secondly, she's not actually all that weak. Gohan is strong, but a lot of that power is tied up in having the power of his SSJ3 (and a little extra on the top) available to him very easily. The equivalent of his now non-existent 'base form' would be stronger than Goku and Vegeta by a lot, but not too outrageously so.
I guess what I'm implying there, is that I think base-form power is passed on, but that the extra transformations an adult achieves don't have a direct effect on the power passed on.
Pan not being able to transform is probably because Gohan's Super Saiyan ki is very not standard since he did the ritual.
I do think it would make sense for Pan to be stronger, but that's more because she's 14. If she was as strong as she is now when she was say 9, I'd be fine with that. Maybe she's just a late bloomer in the strength department.
On that note, though I think it would be bad for the story, I could also find it theoretically acceptable if Bra was stronger than Vegetto. She's 16, and Gohan surpassed his father when he was 9. So.
Although maybe we should just treat Gohan as a special case overall.
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Post by Gohan on Aug 20, 2019 1:59:10 GMT
As an overall response, I think Salagir is taking a more Lamarckian form of genetics here. I don't know exactly the mechanism that Salagir has chosen to justify base saiyans not getting stronger than Freeza, but imo they're weaker simply because they max out their potential before exceeding Freeza. That would then vary with a saiyans potential, with Bra having way more than most saiyans. Goten and Trunks actually training is a reason they're stronger, able to use ki properly, and transform into Super Saiyans where U18 Bra lacks all those things. Regardless of Goten and Trunks training though, there's no reason they should be anywhere near as strong as they are unless something strange is going on. And one possibility of that is power, (and the Super Saiyan transformation to an extent) being passed down. Now I'm not sure if this is supposed to be something exclusive to half-saiyans, saiyans, or if it just applies to everyone. There are a couple possibilities for U18 Pan. Firstly, she's the only quarter-saiyan we know of, so this could have an effect on her power. Secondly, she's not actually all that weak. Gohan is strong, but a lot of that power is tied up in having the power of his SSJ3 (and a little extra on the top) available to him very easily. The equivalent of his now non-existent 'base form' would be stronger than Goku and Vegeta by a lot, but not too outrageously so. I guess what I'm implying there, is that I think base-form power is passed on, but that the extra transformations an adult achieves don't have a direct effect on the power passed on. Pan not being able to transform is probably because Gohan's Super Saiyan ki is very not standard since he did the ritual. I do think it would make sense for Pan to be stronger, but that's more because she's 14. If she was as strong as she is now when she was say 9, I'd be fine with that. Maybe she's just a late bloomer in the strength department. On that note, though I think it would be bad for the story, I could also find it theoretically acceptable if Bra was stronger than Vegetto. She's 16, and Gohan surpassed his father when he was 9. So. Although maybe we should just treat Gohan as a special case overall.
The thing is, I don't think Toriyama had Lamarckian beliefs that would justify this kind of inheritance of power for humans and saiyans. To me it seems that he decided the power of Goten and Trunks based on convenience. In terms of story, you simply try to find the most simple explanation that interferes with story as little as possible. Story wise, the easiest assumption would be that their training was intense rather than the power being inherited. Why? Because we do know that they trained, and assuming training was very effective is a lesser leap (especially for DBZ standards) than assuming that their power was in large part a result of some genetic power inheritance mechanism.
U16 Bra is not a good example of this mechanism being flawed simply because she has massive potential and she spends all the time training. U18 Bra on the other hand, is a great example why this genetic power inheritance doesn't make sense. She never trained yet she supposedly has power level of one million. This is higher power level than first form of Frieza. So, if Gohan taught Bra to use Ki (like he taught Videl), would she suddenly be able to compete with Frieza? In DBZ, you wouldn't have any reason to think that she is any stronger than an ordinary human. And even if she learned to control Ki, she would presumably still be on the level of ordinary humans except with flight and generic Ki blasts. The only difference between her and for example Videl would be potential and possibility to become Super Saiyan, just like Pan.
If we assume that base form power is what is passed on to the child, then Marron should be incredibly overpowered as a child of a very strong human and a being on the level of strong Super Saiyan. But I think we can agree she is an ordinary human. If we use the logic that this applies only to saiyans and half saiyans, but not to quarter saiyans or unlocked potential saiyans or androids or any other similar combination this becomes an even more redundant mechanism that is relevant only for plot convenience.
The point I am trying to make is that if you accept this power inheritance mechanism as valid, this creates far more problems in the story than if you simply gave the benefit of the doubt that Goten and Trunks trained very intensely.
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Post by Blaze on Aug 20, 2019 4:38:47 GMT
As an overall response, I think Salagir is taking a more Lamarckian form of genetics here. I don't know exactly the mechanism that Salagir has chosen to justify base saiyans not getting stronger than Freeza, but imo they're weaker simply because they max out their potential before exceeding Freeza. That would then vary with a saiyans potential, with Bra having way more than most saiyans. Goten and Trunks actually training is a reason they're stronger, able to use ki properly, and transform into Super Saiyans where U18 Bra lacks all those things. Regardless of Goten and Trunks training though, there's no reason they should be anywhere near as strong as they are unless something strange is going on. And one possibility of that is power, (and the Super Saiyan transformation to an extent) being passed down. Now I'm not sure if this is supposed to be something exclusive to half-saiyans, saiyans, or if it just applies to everyone. There are a couple possibilities for U18 Pan. Firstly, she's the only quarter-saiyan we know of, so this could have an effect on her power. Secondly, she's not actually all that weak. Gohan is strong, but a lot of that power is tied up in having the power of his SSJ3 (and a little extra on the top) available to him very easily. The equivalent of his now non-existent 'base form' would be stronger than Goku and Vegeta by a lot, but not too outrageously so. I guess what I'm implying there, is that I think base-form power is passed on, but that the extra transformations an adult achieves don't have a direct effect on the power passed on. Pan not being able to transform is probably because Gohan's Super Saiyan ki is very not standard since he did the ritual. I do think it would make sense for Pan to be stronger, but that's more because she's 14. If she was as strong as she is now when she was say 9, I'd be fine with that. Maybe she's just a late bloomer in the strength department. On that note, though I think it would be bad for the story, I could also find it theoretically acceptable if Bra was stronger than Vegetto. She's 16, and Gohan surpassed his father when he was 9. So. Although maybe we should just treat Gohan as a special case overall.
The thing is, I don't think Toriyama had Lamarckian beliefs that would justify this kind of inheritance of power for humans and saiyans. To me it seems that he decided the power of Goten and Trunks based on convenience. In terms of story, you simply try to find the most simple explanation that interferes with story as little as possible. Story wise, the easiest assumption would be that their training was intense rather than the power being inherited. Why? Because we do know that they trained, and assuming training was very effective is a lesser leap (especially for DBZ standards) than assuming that their power was in large part a result of some genetic power inheritance mechanism. I'm like 90% sure Toriyama didn't have a real reason for Goten and Trunks being strong, he just needed them to be strong enough that they could be useful for the plot. Same for why they were Super Saiyans. That being said, if we're trying to come up with a reason, saying that their training was just really intense doesn't cut it imo. Gohan also had intense training with Piccolo, and he was still way weaker than Nappa. Also do we have much to suggest they trained notably hard? (I'm really asking, I can't remember). Having their training be really really effective to the point that they're as strong as they are at 7 is a bigger leap to me than the possibility that they somehow inherited their power. It seems like they (more or less) inherited the Super Saiyan transformation, so Goku and Vegeta passing things on that they've gained in their life isn't so out there. Why is it strange for U18 Bra to be among the top in the universe if she was just taught how to use ki? 4 Year old Gohan was among the top (less top than U18 Bra, but still) in the universe without any training at all. Honestly even if we ignore power inheritance, I'd expect an adult Bra to be really really strong, at least in slightly latent power, considering Gohan at 4 was. I'm not saying it wouldn't apply to quarter saiyans, just that it might be less effective. Marron does seem like an ordinary human, which makes me think that it is mostly a saiyan thing. Although considering how #18 is supposed to be manipulated on a cellular level now, I'm not sure why Marron isn't strong in the new canon anyway. Assuming one is ok with Bra being inherently strong, what story problems does it make? |
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Post by Gohan on Aug 20, 2019 15:24:19 GMT
The thing is, I don't think Toriyama had Lamarckian beliefs that would justify this kind of inheritance of power for humans and saiyans. To me it seems that he decided the power of Goten and Trunks based on convenience. In terms of story, you simply try to find the most simple explanation that interferes with story as little as possible. Story wise, the easiest assumption would be that their training was intense rather than the power being inherited. Why? Because we do know that they trained, and assuming training was very effective is a lesser leap (especially for DBZ standards) than assuming that their power was in large part a result of some genetic power inheritance mechanism. I'm like 90% sure Toriyama didn't have a real reason for Goten and Trunks being strong, he just needed them to be strong enough that they could be useful for the plot. Same for why they were Super Saiyans. That being said, if we're trying to come up with a reason, saying that their training was just really intense doesn't cut it imo. Gohan also had intense training with Piccolo, and he was still way weaker than Nappa. Also do we have much to suggest they trained notably hard? (I'm really asking, I can't remember). Having their training be really really effective to the point that they're as strong as they are at 7 is a bigger leap to me than the possibility that they somehow inherited their power. It seems like they (more or less) inherited the Super Saiyan transformation, so Goku and Vegeta passing things on that they've gained in their life isn't so out there. Why is it strange for U18 Bra to be among the top in the universe if she was just taught how to use ki? 4 Year old Gohan was among the top (less top than U18 Bra, but still) in the universe without any training at all. Honestly even if we ignore power inheritance, I'd expect an adult Bra to be really really strong, at least in slightly latent power, considering Gohan at 4 was. I'm not saying it wouldn't apply to quarter saiyans, just that it might be less effective. Marron does seem like an ordinary human, which makes me think that it is mostly a saiyan thing. Although considering how #18 is supposed to be manipulated on a cellular level now, I'm not sure why Marron isn't strong in the new canon anyway. Assuming one is ok with Bra being inherently strong, what story problems does it make?
Gohan was 4 when he started training. Goten was 7 when he was introduced. By the time Gohan was 7, he was already pretty powerful. And keep in mind that Gohan didn't constantly train. Since Namek Saga Gohan didn't train for one year. So if Goten trained for all three years, you would expect him to be quite powerful. And if we ignore non canon materials, Goten's power level (before training with Gohan) could have been 50000 in his base and that would be enough to justify most of what he has done. And I don't think Goten in his Super Saiyan form could beat Frieza, so he was not that powerful. Do we have anything to suggest that Goten prior to Gohan's training was enourmously powerful (to the point that training would seem far-fetched)?
4-year-old Gohan (prior to training) was not in the top. He had power level of 1. Pretty much anyone could beat Gohan, including farmer with the shotgun, even if he didn't use shotgun. The only chance Gohan would have against any of these fighters (including farmer with the shotgun without the shotgun) would be if they managed to enrage Gohan. And of course, even if he got angry, Gohan would have to rely on that single burst of anger to win the fight for him. If Gohan was trained to use Ki but did not raise his power level, he would still be extremely weak just with a couple of tricks up his sleeve (such as flight or Ki blasts) which I still don't know would work even against farmer with the shotgun (who could use shotgun against flying Gohan). I don't mind if U18 Bra gets angry and gets a short burst to land a hard punch (like Gohan). I do mind that she could suddenly fight against Frieza's first form just after basic Ki training (not at all like Gohan). I would also expect U18 Bra to have quite a bit of potential but not for her to be able to become so strong with only the most basic training.
There are plenty of problems with this concept. If U18 Bra is inherently strong with NO training, then anyone else WITH training should be ridiculously overpowered. Treating half-saiyan, quarter-saiyan and other combinations differently makes the whole concept redundant and overly convenient. If human genes are weak, and therefore quarter saiyan is weaker than half saiyan, then half saiyan should be weaker than full saiyan, which is clearly not the case for Gohan, future Trunks or even Goten and Trunks. Then you have U18 Pan and Marron who we both agreed should be stronger if power inheritance mechanism is valid. And furthermore if U18 Bra had one million power level, that means that during her bursts she would have much more power than 4-year-old Gohan did during his bursts (since she would be actually using her own power not her potential) which would cause an enormous damage. And yet U18 Videl seemed to be surprised at U18 Bra's power during her burst of anger against Nappa.
And another problem with genetic power inheritance mechanism would mean that every new generation is incrementally stronger than the previous since the power of every single ancestor would be passed down to the person. This would be like every single person being like All Might (if you are familiar with My Hero Academia). Even farmer with the shotgun should have had power level in thousands if not millions if he had access to the power of absolutely every single ancestor. And we know that the farmer with the shotgun and almost all characters had a relatively modest power level at their birth (not counting Broly since he is not canon).
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Aug 20, 2019 15:29:18 GMT
"(not counting Broly since he is not canon)."
He is canon. And I don't mean because of DBSuper. Perhaps you meant to place this thread on DBZ forum and not DBM? Would you like me to move it in order to avoid misnomers?
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Post by Gohan on Aug 20, 2019 19:36:02 GMT
"(not counting Broly since he is not canon)." He is canon. And I don't mean because of DBSuper. Perhaps you meant to place this thread on DBZ forum and not DBM? Would you like me to move it in order to avoid misnomers?
That was a wrong way to phrase it. My mistake. I am not counting Broly's birth as being relevant to my argument since he is not canon to DBZ and I didn't make that clear in my post. But this is isolated case. When I say U16 Bra, U18 Bra, U18 Pan, I am referring to the DBM version of them. So, I think it should stay in DBM section.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 20, 2019 21:15:29 GMT
I always assumed Salagir was basing this on what we know of Saiyans. For example Raditz and Kakarotto were born with low fighting power and deemed below average Saiyan in power. Goku being so weak he sent to Earth because it was deemed a weak planet that he should have reasonably been able to conquer on his own. For them to have a set class system based on birth it must mean Saiyans at the very least can be born with power ranging from low to high. Vegeta for example was born from the king and had been born with a high power level. Bardock was a low level born warrior who only became something after surviving near death so many times to push his power level up.
I think the idea of at least Saiyans inheriting power from their parents has some basis to it. Obviously it is up in the air. Some elites or Royal Saiyans can give birth to low powered ones and some low levels can potentially give birth to high level ones. Let’s say if Goten and Trunks were born with high power levels just because their parents genes mixed the right way to allow them to be born with high power levels and potential right off the bat that helped them reaching their potential faster that is just the die cast that.
Potentially Pan was born the same way. Pan was 4 years old and she was abnormally strong. She was able to fly around the world several times as training exercise and didn’t seem tired at all. I’m sorry I just can’t really see a three year old being trained that intensity for a year to get to that type of level. She had to at least be born with a high power to at least allow for sparring with Goku or whatever training he had her do to get to that level. Perhaps Gohan and Videl’s genes just didn’t mix in a way that allowed Pan to have an easier time to access Super Saiyan the same way Trunks and Goten did. U18 Bra being strong enough to harm U13 Nappa (who we know is much stronger than the U18 Nappa) doesn’t seem that out of place for me.
I think the issue is that Toriyama isn’t a in-depth writer who has everything mapped out and detailed a lot of stuff. He did most of it as a rule of cool that just happened to work out a certain way. The Saiyan class system being from birth rather than later in life just happens to skew fans towards the whole strong parent must mean strong kid thinking, a thing that only got enhanced because Present Trunks and Goten just happen to be Super Saiyans at a young age and achieved easily compared to Vegeta, Goku, and Gohan.
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Post by Gohan on Aug 20, 2019 23:47:35 GMT
I always assumed Salagir was basing this on what we know of Saiyans. For example Raditz and Kakarotto were born with low fighting power and deemed below average Saiyan in power. Goku being so weak he sent to Earth because it was deemed a weak planet that he should have reasonably been able to conquer on his own. For them to have a set class system based on birth it must mean Saiyans at the very least can be born with power ranging from low to high. Vegeta for example was born from the king and had been born with a high power level. Bardock was a low level born warrior who only became something after surviving near death so many times to push his power level up. I think the idea of at least Saiyans inheriting power from their parents has some basis to it. Obviously it is up in the air. Some elites or Royal Saiyans can give birth to low powered ones and some low levels can potentially give birth to high level ones. Let’s say if Goten and Trunks were born with high power levels just because their parents genes mixed the right way to allow them to be born with high power levels and potential right off the bat that helped them reaching their potential faster that is just the die cast that. Potentially Pan was born the same way. Pan was 4 years old and she was abnormally strong. She was able to fly around the world several times as training exercise and didn’t seem tired at all. I’m sorry I just can’t really see a three year old being trained that intensity for a year to get to that type of level. She had to at least be born with a high power to at least allow for sparring with Goku or whatever training he had her do to get to that level. Perhaps Gohan and Videl’s genes just didn’t mix in a way that allowed Pan to have an easier time to access Super Saiyan the same way Trunks and Goten did. U18 Bra being strong enough to harm U13 Nappa (who we know is much stronger than the U18 Nappa) doesn’t seem that out of place for me. I think the issue is that Toriyama isn’t a in-depth writer who has everything mapped out and detailed a lot of stuff. He did most of it as a rule of cool that just happened to work out a certain way. The Saiyan class system being from birth rather than later in life just happens to skew fans towards the whole strong parent must mean strong kid thinking, a thing that only got enhanced because Present Trunks and Goten just happen to be Super Saiyans at a young age and achieved easily compared to Vegeta, Goku, and Gohan.
But couldn't the class system be explained as the potential that someone is perceived to have? Because going by power alone, Goku would not be able to conquer Earth. He would need to train and become stronger in order to do so. I would say that both humans and saiyans are born with the potential that is either high or low. But in order to achieve that potential, you need to train or have someone unlock that potential for you.
I am not against the idea of "potential". We have plenty of examples of people having "potential" and it is probably partly based on genetics. What I am disagreeing with is that someone (whether saiyan or human) will already have an enormous initial power level. We know that Gohan when he was 4 years old had a power level of 1. And yet he has an enormous potential. But his low power level does not surprise us because we know he hasn't trained at all. I think the potential is based on genetics, not an initial power level.
To me the idea of Pan being born "strong" is less believable than the idea that Pan has an enormous potential and was well trained by very strong fighters. Especially if you consider that Gohan was absolutely weak when he started training and in one year he was stronger than Raditz (who probably could have done what Pan did, such as flying around the world).
I will agree with you, though, that Toriyama probably hasn't put a lot of thought into this.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 21, 2019 1:47:30 GMT
I always assumed Salagir was basing this on what we know of Saiyans. For example Raditz and Kakarotto were born with low fighting power and deemed below average Saiyan in power. Goku being so weak he sent to Earth because it was deemed a weak planet that he should have reasonably been able to conquer on his own. For them to have a set class system based on birth it must mean Saiyans at the very least can be born with power ranging from low to high. Vegeta for example was born from the king and had been born with a high power level. Bardock was a low level born warrior who only became something after surviving near death so many times to push his power level up. I think the idea of at least Saiyans inheriting power from their parents has some basis to it. Obviously it is up in the air. Some elites or Royal Saiyans can give birth to low powered ones and some low levels can potentially give birth to high level ones. Let’s say if Goten and Trunks were born with high power levels just because their parents genes mixed the right way to allow them to be born with high power levels and potential right off the bat that helped them reaching their potential faster that is just the die cast that. Potentially Pan was born the same way. Pan was 4 years old and she was abnormally strong. She was able to fly around the world several times as training exercise and didn’t seem tired at all. I’m sorry I just can’t really see a three year old being trained that intensity for a year to get to that type of level. She had to at least be born with a high power to at least allow for sparring with Goku or whatever training he had her do to get to that level. Perhaps Gohan and Videl’s genes just didn’t mix in a way that allowed Pan to have an easier time to access Super Saiyan the same way Trunks and Goten did. U18 Bra being strong enough to harm U13 Nappa (who we know is much stronger than the U18 Nappa) doesn’t seem that out of place for me. I think the issue is that Toriyama isn’t a in-depth writer who has everything mapped out and detailed a lot of stuff. He did most of it as a rule of cool that just happened to work out a certain way. The Saiyan class system being from birth rather than later in life just happens to skew fans towards the whole strong parent must mean strong kid thinking, a thing that only got enhanced because Present Trunks and Goten just happen to be Super Saiyans at a young age and achieved easily compared to Vegeta, Goku, and Gohan.
But couldn't the class system be explained as the potential that someone is perceived to have? Because going by power alone, Goku would not be able to conquer Earth. He would need to train and become stronger in order to do so. I would say that both humans and saiyans are born with the potential that is either high or low. But in order to achieve that potential, you need to train or have someone unlock that potential for you.
I am not against the idea of "potential". We have plenty of examples of people having "potential" and it is probably partly based on genetics. What I am disagreeing with is that someone (whether saiyan or human) will already have an enormous initial power level. We know that Gohan when he was 4 years old had a power level of 1. And yet he has an enormous potential. But his low power level does not surprise us because we know he hasn't trained at all. I think the potential is based on genetics, not an initial power level.
To me the idea of Pan being born "strong" is less believable than the idea that Pan has an enormous potential and was well trained by very strong fighters. Especially if you consider that Gohan was absolutely weak when he started training and in one year he was stronger than Raditz (who probably could have done what Pan did, such as flying around the world).
I will agree with you, though, that Toriyama probably hasn't put a lot of thought into this.
I assume they factor in starting power to potential as well though. If Kakarot is born with a power level of 1 they deemed him a low level fighter and consider his potential is to be weak, but for the Saiyans to rank their fighters like that must mean they have a system where some babies start off stronger than others. If 1 is considered low ranking power by Saiyans it must mean that it is abnormal for them to start that low and that they have babies born with higher power levels. Now I’m not saying every Saiyan in history always born as strong or stronger than their parent just that there is a chance some are born strong and with growth not necessarily training they get stronger. It is like people in real life. As we grow we can get stronger without working out and vary in that strength depending on genetics or body types right? Like a person who never trains or works out won’t keep the same strength they have as a child. I see something like U18 Bra being born with like a power level 5,000 just because Vegeta and Bulma genes just happened to mix that way that she starts off with a power level the old Saiyans would consider an elite power level. There is also a possibly that Vegeta and Bulma had a third kid that their genes mix in a different way that the kid is born weak. Children don’t all have to be born weak or strong. Both outcomes can be true. I think Gohan is a good example of a kid born with ridiculous power, but only being able to access it by getting angry. Now it is impossible to know if Gohan never trained at all and he just grew up if that power would rise just from growing up or not. I consider it a possibility. Sure they may never reach their full potential, but they could start off strong and grow stronger just by virtue of their body developing. |
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Post by Blaze on Aug 21, 2019 2:55:01 GMT
I'm like 90% sure Toriyama didn't have a real reason for Goten and Trunks being strong, he just needed them to be strong enough that they could be useful for the plot. Same for why they were Super Saiyans. That being said, if we're trying to come up with a reason, saying that their training was just really intense doesn't cut it imo. Gohan also had intense training with Piccolo, and he was still way weaker than Nappa. Also do we have much to suggest they trained notably hard? (I'm really asking, I can't remember). Having their training be really really effective to the point that they're as strong as they are at 7 is a bigger leap to me than the possibility that they somehow inherited their power. It seems like they (more or less) inherited the Super Saiyan transformation, so Goku and Vegeta passing things on that they've gained in their life isn't so out there. Why is it strange for U18 Bra to be among the top in the universe if she was just taught how to use ki? 4 Year old Gohan was among the top (less top than U18 Bra, but still) in the universe without any training at all. Honestly even if we ignore power inheritance, I'd expect an adult Bra to be really really strong, at least in slightly latent power, considering Gohan at 4 was. I'm not saying it wouldn't apply to quarter saiyans, just that it might be less effective. Marron does seem like an ordinary human, which makes me think that it is mostly a saiyan thing. Although considering how #18 is supposed to be manipulated on a cellular level now, I'm not sure why Marron isn't strong in the new canon anyway. Assuming one is ok with Bra being inherently strong, what story problems does it make?
Gohan was 4 when he started training. Goten was 7 when he was introduced. By the time Gohan was 7, he was already pretty powerful. And keep in mind that Gohan didn't constantly train. Since Namek Saga Gohan didn't train for one year. So if Goten trained for all three years, you would expect him to be quite powerful. And if we ignore non canon materials, Goten's power level (before training with Gohan) could have been 50000 in his base and that would be enough to justify most of what he has done. And I don't think Goten in his Super Saiyan form could beat Frieza, so he was not that powerful. Do we have anything to suggest that Goten prior to Gohan's training was enourmously powerful (to the point that training would seem far-fetched)?
The thing is, what actually made Gohan powerful as a kid was his experience on Namek. Training for a year brought him barely up to Radditz's strength. On Namek he got his potential unlocked which increased his power phenomenally, and got a zenkai from Recoome. His power after that would've been in the low hundred thousands, but it wasn't from training. We unfortunately don't know how strong he got after 3 years of training (at which point he'd be 9) with Goku and Piccolo afaik. But we can assume that after 3 years of training, his base would be at best as strong as Goku and Vegeta's. Which, if you view Super Saiyan transformations as proportional, would still put him, after: 3 years of training with 2 very strong fighters, a potential unlock and zenkai that made him wayy stronger, and a year training for the saiyans, weaker than a 2 years younger than him Goten. I say weaker for reasons below. So, about Goten. When he just started his training with Gohan, in base form, he almost hit Super Saiyan Gohan with a rock. Gohan was flabbergasted at how fast Goten threw it. I don't think he could've been at 50k. Goten as a Super Saiyan also made Gohan sweat during their first sparring. Trunk's first training with Vegeta as a Super Saiyan also played out similarly. I don't like it, and I don't think DBM even really sticks with it, but Goten and Trunks as 7 year old Super Saiyans are portrayed as not all that far from Gohan and Vegeta. Even if we want to give some slack here, saying they're weaker than Freeza is just too much. There's also #18 being shocked while battling them, and thinking she'll need to finish the fight fast. Which she does by using a kienzan to reveal them as 2 kids, not even by using her strength. So they're at least around the cyborgs in strength. Goten and Trunks did spar with each other, but all we have to go on (after checking my manga) is that they played 'showdown'. Nothing really indicates that it was intense. Certainly not enough that they'd get a zenkai. I'll concede the Gohan part. But I was also getting at the concept of this whole thing not being 'fair'. Btw, I'm having difficulty finding a source for Bra being at Freeza's first form. All I could find was Salagir saying that she could destroy the earth if she has a casual power of 20k. In the comic, she temporarily impedes Nappa with a burst of strength. Which could be akin to a less dire version of Gohan's rage. And having her at 20k without ever really training is whatever to me, even if we ignored the possibility of a power passing on mechanism. She's a half saiyan, different species have different strengths. Could just be the average strength of a non-training 16 year old half-saiyan. Bra with the most basic training is probably going to be pretty damn strong no matter what tbh. Gohan with a year becomes in the top 1% (number is a guess, not the point) in the universe, from a position of being absurdly weak. Goten and Trunks with a couple years are (presumably) above the Ginyu force. Their training isn't basic, but their increases are astronomical compared to the rest of the universe. If Bra even just does the occasional work out (not saying she does in DBM), she should be really really strong. Under this concept, U18 Bra should actually have the easiest time getting stronger than anyone else in U18. She was conceived when Vegeta was really really strong, compared to Goten and Trunks who were conceived when their fathers were rather weak Super Saiyans (Goten being concieved when Goku is a fpssj is fanon and doesn't work with the stated timeline in the manga afaict). And on that, everyone else with training is ridiculously overpowered. Goten and Trunks at 7 years old are stronger than a near adult U18 Bra. Why is treating half and quarter saiyans differently a big deal? It isn't about human genes being weak, it's about the possibility that 50/50 saiyan/human just makes for a better combination than either. That it's 'just right'. Regardless, the half and quarter thing was just me speculating. What Salagir has actually said on it, was that he didn't think Pan looked crazy strong at the end of dbz (which I don't get, tbh), and then says "we can also imagine that the unnatural power-up of Gohan changed a few things". If I was writing Multiverse, I'd probably have had Pan be stronger but kept the difficulty in achieving Super Saiyan. What I mentioned of Marron was actually not related to power inheritance. If #18 was manipulated on a genetic level (as she seems to have been in the new canon) then any offspring she has should also inherit that and be superhuman regardless. It's not really relevant to the discussion though, just something I thought of. Videl has probably never seen Bra use that much power? I'm not sure if Bra even has used that much power before. Who would she use it on, and why would Videl be there at the time? I mean, not if it's restricted. But even if it wasn't, not really either. Consider this: Human: 100 after training whole life Child: casual 20, doesn't train Grandchild: casual 5, doesn't train Great Grandchild: 80 after training whole life It would only happen if their descendants trained as well. They'd just be stronger than usual without trying much. |
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Post by Gohan on Aug 21, 2019 17:52:53 GMT
But couldn't the class system be explained as the potential that someone is perceived to have? Because going by power alone, Goku would not be able to conquer Earth. He would need to train and become stronger in order to do so. I would say that both humans and saiyans are born with the potential that is either high or low. But in order to achieve that potential, you need to train or have someone unlock that potential for you.
I am not against the idea of "potential". We have plenty of examples of people having "potential" and it is probably partly based on genetics. What I am disagreeing with is that someone (whether saiyan or human) will already have an enormous initial power level. We know that Gohan when he was 4 years old had a power level of 1. And yet he has an enormous potential. But his low power level does not surprise us because we know he hasn't trained at all. I think the potential is based on genetics, not an initial power level.
To me the idea of Pan being born "strong" is less believable than the idea that Pan has an enormous potential and was well trained by very strong fighters. Especially if you consider that Gohan was absolutely weak when he started training and in one year he was stronger than Raditz (who probably could have done what Pan did, such as flying around the world). I will agree with you, though, that Toriyama probably hasn't put a lot of thought into this.
I assume they factor in starting power to potential as well though. If Kakarot is born with a power level of 1 they deemed him a low level fighter and consider his potential is to be weak, but for the Saiyans to rank their fighters like that must mean they have a system where some babies start off stronger than others. If 1 is considered low ranking power by Saiyans it must mean that it is abnormal for them to start that low and that they have babies born with higher power levels. Now I’m not saying every Saiyan in history always born as strong or stronger than their parent just that there is a chance some are born strong and with growth not necessarily training they get stronger. It is like people in real life. As we grow we can get stronger without working out and vary in that strength depending on genetics or body types right? Like a person who never trains or works out won’t keep the same strength they have as a child. I see something like U18 Bra being born with like a power level 5,000 just because Vegeta and Bulma genes just happened to mix that way that she starts off with a power level the old Saiyans would consider an elite power level. There is also a possibly that Vegeta and Bulma had a third kid that their genes mix in a different way that the kid is born weak. Children don’t all have to be born weak or strong. Both outcomes can be true. I think Gohan is a good example of a kid born with ridiculous power, but only being able to access it by getting angry. Now it is impossible to know if Gohan never trained at all and he just grew up if that power would rise just from growing up or not. I consider it a possibility. Sure they may never reach their full potential, but they could start off strong and grow stronger just by virtue of their body developing. That is true but I am not saying that everyone is born with the exact same power. I assume that just like humans, you would have more and less fit children. Those fit would have somewhat higher power level, those frail and weak would have a lower power level. I am just not convinced that those very fit are born with enormous initial power levels. If an average adult human has a power level of around 5, then a very fit but untrained human should not have more than 15. And from what we know, average untrained saiyan (power level of probably around 50, we can tackle this topic if you disagree with this number) is not enormously stronger than an average untrained human (5). As for Gohan, he had a power level of 1 when he was 4 years old. It is important to note, if power inheritance was a thing, by the time he was 4 he should have been stronger than an ordinary 4-year-old kid. But instead he had 5 times less power than a farmer with a shotgun. This is pretty much on point for what you would expect from an untrained kid. By the time his body developed you would expect a power level of roughly 5.
Gohan was 4 when he started training. Goten was 7 when he was introduced. By the time Gohan was 7, he was already pretty powerful. And keep in mind that Gohan didn't constantly train. Since Namek Saga Gohan didn't train for one year. So if Goten trained for all three years, you would expect him to be quite powerful. And if we ignore non canon materials, Goten's power level (before training with Gohan) could have been 50000 in his base and that would be enough to justify most of what he has done. And I don't think Goten in his Super Saiyan form could beat Frieza, so he was not that powerful. Do we have anything to suggest that Goten prior to Gohan's training was enourmously powerful (to the point that training would seem far-fetched)?
The thing is, what actually made Gohan powerful as a kid was his experience on Namek. Training for a year brought him barely up to Radditz's strength. On Namek he got his potential unlocked which increased his power phenomenally, and got a zenkai from Recoome. His power after that would've been in the low hundred thousands, but it wasn't from training. We unfortunately don't know how strong he got after 3 years of training (at which point he'd be 9) with Goku and Piccolo afaik. But we can assume that after 3 years of training, his base would be at best as strong as Goku and Vegeta's. Which, if you view Super Saiyan transformations as proportional, would still put him, after: 3 years of training with 2 very strong fighters, a potential unlock and zenkai that made him wayy stronger, and a year training for the saiyans, weaker than a 2 years younger than him Goten. I say weaker for reasons below. So, about Goten. When he just started his training with Gohan, in base form, he almost hit Super Saiyan Gohan with a rock. Gohan was flabbergasted at how fast Goten threw it. I don't think he could've been at 50k. Goten as a Super Saiyan also made Gohan sweat during their first sparring. Trunk's first training with Vegeta as a Super Saiyan also played out similarly. I don't like it, and I don't think DBM even really sticks with it, but Goten and Trunks as 7 year old Super Saiyans are portrayed as not all that far from Gohan and Vegeta. Even if we want to give some slack here, saying they're weaker than Freeza is just too much. There's also #18 being shocked while battling them, and thinking she'll need to finish the fight fast. Which she does by using a kienzan to reveal them as 2 kids, not even by using her strength. So they're at least around the cyborgs in strength. Goten and Trunks did spar with each other, but all we have to go on (after checking my manga) is that they played 'showdown'. Nothing really indicates that it was intense. Certainly not enough that they'd get a zenkai. I mean, I definitely understand your reasoning. Goten and Trunks have some strong feats. But at the same time, I am just not convinced by any feats Goten and Trunks have (prior to Gohan's training) that they could defeat Frieza. After Gohan trained Goten, he probably got much stronger but I don't think that Goten and Trunks were on the level of Androids. First of all, #18 fought two of them, second of all they were going all out, while #18 was concerned about not breaking the rules or killing them, so she was "weakened" in a way. But I agree that 50000 was too low of a power level. Maybe if Goten was slightly weaker than Goku when he fought Frieza, he could throw the rock fast enough to surprise a relaxed Gohan?
From what I understand, she has a power level of one million, which would be roughly comparable to Frieza's second form and almost twice of Frieza's first form. Of course, even if Bra learned to use Ki, she would still have a hard time against even first form Frieza who has more techniques and experience. But the raw power would be on Bra's side. Nappa supposedly had 200000 power level making Bra 5 times stronger in terms of power level. I don't have the source to point you to directly, but I can try to find it if you want.
Well, we mostly agree here. Though it is not surprising to me that Goten and Trunks were stronger than U18 Bra since Goten and Trunks actually trained. Even in real life, a kid who trains a lot has a decent chance of being physically stronger than an adolescent girl who does not train at all. As for Videl, I would imagine she would find out if Bra did anything noteworthy since they all seem to know each other relatively well.
Why would the father who never trains have 20, yet his son who never trains have 5? Wouldn't both have 20 since they never train? Also, wouldn't the child inherit the power from both parents making him twice as strong as a single parent (assuming both parents are equally strong)? |
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 21, 2019 18:31:17 GMT
I get what you are saying, but I think it is fine to have Saiyan children born very low or very high power levels. I’m even fine with the fan theory that Goten and Trunks were born with unusually high power level based on Goku and Vegeta so strong. No doubt training played a part in it, but I think some races like the Saiyans start off stronger than humans and that in cases they produce a crazy strong baby out the gate while also producing some babies more in line with average human in strength. For some reasons humans and Saiyan genes mix in a way that usually produces a strong hybrid. Gohan’s innate power was already counted as unusual by humans and Saiyans even if it wasn’t his starting power. While Goten was born stronger he doesn’t appear to have the same type of innate power that Gohan has that he can reach when he gets angry. A case could be made Gohan is born with more innate power, but a low starting than Goten who may have been born with a high starting power, but not have the same innate power as Gohan. Genetic lottery just hit them differently.
I think it is just all up in the air. I wouldn’t say it is a set thing where if Goku and Chichi had a third child after he came back to life that it automatically means the child would inherit a good chunk of Goku’s power to the point where he can go SS3 easily or anything like that. That might be a possibility or not. I just think with Goku being so strong, the way Saiyan reproduction seems to work, and human genes and potential seem to blend and in some cases enhances the Saiyan gene pool that it may just favor a child born from Goku and Chichi starting with a high power level whatever that is compared to the average Saiyan baby or human baby. At the same time there is still a chance for a child born from them to start with both a low power and not have a lot of fighting potential. That might be least likely outcome due to some other factors, but it is probably still an outcome.
I would say strong parents doesn’t necessarily mean strong children or that every child fathered by the Saiyans should automatically be assumed to inherit all of their power or potential. Maybe that is why Bra and Pan were handled differently from Goten and Trunks. Pan could have started with a high power level that made her more ideal to start training with Goku at 4. Starting power and potential power was used effectively to make Pan much stronger than Gohan was at 4, but she wasn’t born in the same way as Goten ad. Trunks were it was easier for her to transform into a Super Saiyan, so U18 needed enough rage to break through, which thanks to her peaceful life left her stuck and her power stagnate before the tournament. The same probably also true of Vegetto. If he had another child with Bulma there is no guarantee the child will be as strong as Bra was.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 0:25:44 GMT
The one and only answer that's needed and pretty clear.
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Post by Gohan on Aug 23, 2019 15:46:27 GMT
All I could find was Salagir saying that she could destroy the earth if she has a casual power of 20k. In the comic, she temporarily impedes Nappa with a burst of strength. Which could be akin to a less dire version of Gohan's rage. And having her at 20k without ever really training is whatever to me, even if we ignored the possibility of a power passing on mechanism. She's a half saiyan, different species have different strengths. Could just be the average strength of a non-training 16 year old half-saiyan.
I found the statement (keep in mind it is a Google translation, and I slightly gramatically altered it). This is the part about U18 Bra's power level:
"Bra Brief, U18. Does not train, 16 years old. She is half Saiyan like Trunks and Goten.
Why does she not turn into SSJ? Just because she does not fight, she has no aggression to go out, nothing has pushed her to use this transformation.
Nevertheless, like Trunks and Goten, she remains strongly above the rest of humanity. So, if you give her, at 16, only one-third of a minimum SSJ, one-third of what Trunks and Goten were at age 7, then it's easily a million!"
I would still have a problem with an untrained 16-year-old who could accidentally destroy the world if she panicked, even if her power level was 20k. But one million makes the situation even more absurd. Just imagine someone with no control of their power (but with power level greater than first form Frieza) going to school, having outbursts that make Gohan's against Raditz look relatively mild.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 20:56:00 GMT
The way I interpreted it in DBZ (and DBM) is that stronger parent = offspring have easier access to their potential. Gohan and Goten should have similar overall potential but Goten was much stronger at the age of 7. All we know is that he occasionally played with Trunks. It's unlikely Goten had done any serious training since was able to turn SSJ before even learning how to fly or aim the Kamehameha properly. Trunks had better ki control because he was trained by Vegeta but his training apparently wasn't intense enough that he ever needed to turn SSJ until Trunks tried to walk in 100x gravity. Based on what Goku told Trunks after returning from Yardrat, it took him some time to learn how to transform at will which is something that Goten and Trunks didn't seem to struggle with.
That's where the old fan theory came from that they inherited SSJ because they were conceived after their fathers had achieved the form. I don't think it's fair to say Toriyama had nothing in mind since he could've easily had them spend more time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and get SSJ that way. He mentioned in a recent interview that Goten and Trunks inherited it from their fathers. That could either be considered a retcon after the fact or author explanation something he didn't make clear before but either way I think there's enough evidence just from the Buu saga to suggest that may have been what he had in mind back then.
I think the same applies to Goten and Trunks in DBM. My headcanon is that female hybrids have a harder time accessing their potential than males due to their human DNA. Not meant to sound sexist but female mammals are generally weaker. U18 Bra is stronger than Gohan was before any training but far weaker than 7 year old base Goten. Both Pans trained more than Goten and Trunks but had a much harder time turning SSJ (although that might also be because she's a quarter Saiyan).
U16 Bra is a weird case. Gohan had more potential than his father while U16 Bra only inherited a fraction of Vegetto's potential. She's far stronger than a regular hybrid but no where close to her father in the same form like the other hybrids are. If Vegetto had a son, potentially he might be like Gohan and other male hybrids and could rival his father in the same forms with better control of his power than Bra.
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Post by Gohan on Sept 11, 2019 21:24:22 GMT
The way I interpreted it in DBZ (and DBM) is that stronger parent = offspring have easier access to their potential. Gohan and Goten should have similar overall potential but Goten was much stronger at the age of 7. All we know is that he occasionally played with Trunks. It's unlikely Goten had done any serious training since was able to turn SSJ before even learning how to fly or aim the Kamehameha properly. Trunks had better ki control because he was trained by Vegeta but his training apparently wasn't intense enough that he ever needed to turn SSJ until Trunks tried to walk in 100x gravity. Based on what Goku told Trunks after returning from Yardrat, it took him some time to learn how to transform at will which is something that Goten and Trunks didn't seem to struggle with. That's where the old fan theory came from that they inherited SSJ because they were conceived after their fathers had achieved the form. I don't think it's fair to say Toriyama had nothing in mind since he could've easily had them spend more time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and get SSJ that way. He mentioned in a recent interview that Goten and Trunks inherited it from their fathers. That could either be considered a retcon after the fact or author explanation something he didn't make clear before but either way I think there's enough evidence just from the Buu saga to suggest that may have been what he had in mind back then. I think the same applies to Goten and Trunks in DBM. My headcanon is that female hybrids have a harder time accessing their potential than males due to their human DNA. Not meant to sound sexist but female mammals are generally weaker. U18 Bra is stronger than Gohan was before any training but far weaker than 7 year old base Goten. Both Pans trained more than Goten and Trunks but had a much harder time turning SSJ (although that might also be because she's a quarter Saiyan). U16 Bra is a weird case. Gohan had more potential than his father while U16 Bra only inherited a fraction of Vegetto's potential. She's far stronger than a regular hybrid but no where close to her father in the same form like the other hybrids are. If Vegetto had a son, potentially he might be like Gohan and other male hybrids and could rival his father in the same forms with better control of his power than Bra.
Was Goten really much stronger than Gohan when he was 7-year-old? Gohan when he was 5 did help in a fight against Frieza. When he was 7, he was even stronger. Not to mention Goten didn't even know how to fly until Gohan taught him. And Goten was trained by Gohan for the tournament. And even before that, Goten was trained by Chichi and he sparred with Trunks.
Potential to become a Super Saiyan is inherited. But the ability to transform is not. Otherwise, U18 Bra and U18 Pan would be able to transform. U18 Pan managed it, but only recently. Yes, U18 Bra is stronger than untrained Gohan who had power level of 1. And yes, she is weaker than 7-year-old Goten. But that is due to the fact that she has no interest in training while Goten trained then. U18 Bra should be as strong as an average girl of her age since she doesn't train. And if Goten didn't train he should be roughly as strong as an average person of his age. If the power was inherited, U18 Bra would be stronger than Trunks since she was born when Vegeta was stronger. So, I don't think power is inherited. The only difference if they had stronger parents would be their potential, and at very intense emotional moments they could tap into a little of that potential.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 21:40:43 GMT
Was Goten really much stronger than Gohan when he was 7-year-old? Gohan when he was 5 did help in a fight against Frieza. When he was 7, he was even stronger. Not to mention Goten didn't even know how to fly until Gohan taught him. And Goten was trained by Gohan for the tournament. And even before that, Goten was trained by Chichi and he sparred with Trunks. I think Goten was definitely stronger than Gohan at the age of 7. Gohan was trained by Piccolo, had some of his potential unlocked by Guru, a Zenkai on Namek, trained with Goku and Piccolo for three years, and still needed Goku to teach him how to transform in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Compare that to Goten who had only trained with Trunks and turned SSJ on his own. I forgot if training with Chichi was filler but that shouldn't help much since she only had a PL of a few hundred. What I meant was that stronger parent gave them easier access to their potential so Goten and Trunks could turn SSJ with minimal effort compared to Gohan since they inherited it. U18 Bra should be able to just as easily but she never trained so it seems she only has access to a small rage boost in extreme situations. I was thinking Pan struggled with SSJ because she had less Saiyan DNA. That's assuming the female hybrid theory about them being weaker doesn't work  . All the hybrids that were born after Goten happened to female so I that might be a reason why they all struggled more than him. Although U16 Bra turned SSJ at am earlier age she seemed to have less control than Goten and Trunks. |
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Post by godjacob on Jun 1, 2021 18:50:02 GMT
I think the idea of some sort of "fixed" standard of power goes against the entire philosophy of power in DB/DBZ to begin with. Gohan has a higher potential than his father due to his genetics, but that had not stopped Goku from overtaking Gohan in power at the start of the Buu Arc because Gohan slacked off his training. Your power doesn't mean much in Dragon Ball if you do no training to improve upon it or maintain it.
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. All the hybrids that were born after Goten happened to female so I that might be a reason why they all struggled more than him. Although U16 Bra turned SSJ at am earlier age she seemed to have less control than Goten and Trunks.