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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Sept 26, 2019 3:16:53 GMT
So I've got a couple questions that really can't be answered by anyone other than Toriyama himself, but we could at least speculate on them.
Can Porunga grant a wish to make it to where Shenron doesn't realize he's already granted a wish before and therefore can I don't know say do things like "bring back to life someone he's already resurrected once before" or "give Oolong a second pair of panties"? Could Porunga change the rules regarding what Shenron could do as long as it was something the one tied to the DBs could allow Shenron to do themself?
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Post by squirz96 on Oct 4, 2019 21:23:56 GMT
Honestly I don't think so. Besides there is no point since there is no rule that states you can't have same wish twice.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 5, 2019 7:56:21 GMT
Honestly I don't think so. Besides there is no point since there is no rule that states you can't have same wish twice.
Except we don't know the mechanics behind how that rule functions. Does it only work if Shenron knows he's granted the wish beforehand? If it is tied to such a thing, it then becomes a question of can another Eternal Dragon erase the memories of another Eternal Dragon. Or even if it doesn't matter if Shenron remembers granting a wish or not, can Porunga make it to where it's like Shenron never granted a wish in the first place even though he did, so basically the DBs/Shenron/whatever mystical force makes sure the rules are enforced thinks (for lack of a better term) a certain wish has never been granted and therefore makes it to where the wish can be granted again as if it's the very first time again?
As for Porunga being able to change the rules about what Shenron can and can't do, is it within Porunga's power to make rule changes as long as it's within the power of Shenron's creator/new life-linked Namekian's power to make such changes?
- Example: Let's say that someone tried to wish on Porunga that Shenron could grant 3 wishes at the point in time that Shenron could only grant 2 wishes. Would Porunga be able to grant that wish since it technically is in Dende's power to make it to where Shenron can grant 3 wishes since he obviously would do it at a later point in the original story after this hypothetical scenario were to take place?
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Post by supergojita3 on Oct 10, 2019 22:16:46 GMT
AS to porunga granting a wish that circumvents shenrons powers, I'd say sure.
Perhaps they could retroactively change his powers such as rewrite history when the namekians were designing shenron. time travel was a thing they were suggesting in the cell saga with the dragon balls, such as saving goku, but they decided against it as cell would live too at that moment. It's not proven to be impossible, and piccolo suggested not doing it due to cell, not out of impossibility.
That or they could wish it and it would rely on some tricky work around, such as dende just fixing it like how they powered up porunga in the buu saga. Remember, porunga could not always revive more than 1 person, so it would be a simple matter of dende upgrading shenron himself and porunga guiding him to do it.
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 13, 2019 4:39:31 GMT
AS to porunga granting a wish that circumvents shenrons powers, I'd say sure. Perhaps they could retroactively change his powers such as rewrite history when the namekians were designing shenron. time travel was a thing they were suggesting in the cell saga with the dragon balls, such as saving goku, but they decided against it as cell would live too at that moment. It's not proven to be impossible, and piccolo suggested not doing it due to cell, not out of impossibility. That or they could wish it and it would rely on some tricky work around, such as dende just fixing it like how they powered up porunga in the buu saga. Remember, porunga could not always revive more than 1 person, so it would be a simple matter of dende upgrading shenron himself and porunga guiding him to do it.
Interesting though I'm not sure I like the idea of Porunga using magic to mind control Dende in the past to do something like that. I'm not even sure I like Porunga inserting ideas into Dende's mind as if Dende himself thought up said ideas, but that could just be because I remember Porunga refusing to grant certain wishes like wishing Goku back to Earth from Yardrat. Now that being said, I'm pretty sure the whole trying to wish Goku back to Earth only happened in the anime as if I'm not mistaken the manga just more or less alluded to the fact that Porunga was summoned to bring back the rest of the Z-Fighters that died during Saiyan Saga and then wish that the Namekians except Piccolo and Kami were sent to a new planet. I don't think that part happened in the manga, so if that's true then it's likely the whole Porunga refusing wishes based off needing permission from the target of the wish is non-canon.
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Post by supergojita3 on Oct 13, 2019 6:39:42 GMT
AS to porunga granting a wish that circumvents shenrons powers, I'd say sure. Perhaps they could retroactively change his powers such as rewrite history when the namekians were designing shenron. time travel was a thing they were suggesting in the cell saga with the dragon balls, such as saving goku, but they decided against it as cell would live too at that moment. It's not proven to be impossible, and piccolo suggested not doing it due to cell, not out of impossibility. That or they could wish it and it would rely on some tricky work around, such as dende just fixing it like how they powered up porunga in the buu saga. Remember, porunga could not always revive more than 1 person, so it would be a simple matter of dende upgrading shenron himself and porunga guiding him to do it.
Interesting though I'm not sure I like the idea of Porunga using magic to mind control Dende in the past to do something like that. I'm not even sure I like Porunga inserting ideas into Dende's mind as if Dende himself thought up said ideas, but that could just be because I remember Porunga refusing to grant certain wishes like wishing Goku back to Earth from Yardrat. Now that being said, I'm pretty sure the whole trying to wish Goku back to Earth only happened in the anime as if I'm not mistaken the manga just more or less alluded to the fact that Porunga was summoned to bring back the rest of the Z-Fighters that died during Saiyan Saga and then wish that the Namekians except Piccolo and Kami were sent to a new planet. I don't think that part happened in the manga, so if that's true then it's likely the whole Porunga refusing wishes based off needing permission from the target of the wish is non-canon.
the dragon can't grant a wish that exceeds its creators strength, so moving say, a snail against its will is fine, as a snail is weak. Goku on the other hand was too strong to do anything to, as well as when they tried to kill the saiyans via shenron and it failed for the same reason. I don't recall, but I think a person wished for the right to rule the world as a legend, but this was just speculation on bulmas part, I think. gotta re read the manga, but they did wish to erase the memories of buu in dbz, so unless the person is too strong, the wish can't be granted. same as how the androids were too strong to be made into humans again. as to brain washing dende, I could see it happening, though theres no need. just ask porunga to follow the same steps dende would need to do to upgrade shenron. |
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 13, 2019 7:48:16 GMT
the dragon can't grant a wish that exceeds its creators strength, so moving say, a snail against its will is fine, as a snail is weak. Goku on the other hand was too strong to do anything to, as well as when they tried to kill the saiyans via shenron and it failed for the same reason. I don't recall, but I think a person wished for the right to rule the world as a legend, but this was just speculation on bulmas part, I think. gotta re read the manga, but they did wish to erase the memories of buu in dbz, so unless the person is too strong, the wish can't be granted. same as how the androids were too strong to be made into humans again. I actually don't think that's a problem. They have had Porunga teleport Piccolo to Namek during the Namek Saga and Piccolo even pre-absorbing Nail and post training with King Kai should've been much stronger than Grand Elder Guru. Now as for teleporting Goku to Earth, I did say that I was pretty sure that that was a filler wish, so it was likely never made in the manga. Also Porunga didn't say it was outside his power; he just said that he refused to grant the wish because he contacted Goku telepathically and Goku told Porunga that he didn't want to leave Planet Yardrat. Basically in that filler scene, Porunga chose not to grant a wish because he didn't want to do something against Goku's wishes in regards to teleporting Goku back to Earth. Honestly I'm assuming that he even did that was because Toei knew teleporting people from one location to another was possible, but couldn't have Porunga bring Goku back to Earth in a non-canon scene because Goku canonically wouldn't return to Earth until after Future Trunks shows up. As for erasing Buu's memories, I don't think they ever wished for such a thing. They wished that the population of Earth would forget about the existence of Majin Buu so that Fat Buu could live on Earth with Mr Satan without people freaking out that the monster that killed so many people was so casually walking around. Regarding turning the Cyborgs back into humans, it was beyond Shenron's power because I'd imagine it was beyond Dende's abilities prior to restoring Shenron to undo the merging of flesh and technology. After all it would seem that Dr Gero didn't just graft machinery onto the bodies of Lapis and Lazuli (the human names of his victims), but it would instead seem that he merged their biology with machinery probably using nanobot technology to perform countless surgical procedures on the molecular level to fuse flesh and blood with machinery. I think restoring their normal flesh and blood bodies was just too much for Shenron to do. I'd imagine it would definitely be within the power of Shenron to take someone who was flesh and blood with machine parts grafted onto them like say Cyborg from the Teen Titans and replace the machine parts with their original flesh and blood parts. I could totally seem Shenron being able to magically remove machine parts that were grafted onto flesh and blood mangled bodies and then instantaneously replace the machine parts with regrown biological parts. After all Perfect Cell put a hole in Vegeta's Trunks and when they wished that Shenron bring Trunks back to life, he didn't have the hole in his body that killed him, which means that Shenron can restore flesh wounds so I don't see why he couldn't also replace whole missing limbs and organs onto someone like Cyborg from the Teen Titans. I just think he can't pull an Orihime on 17 & 18 and restore them to their original bodies due to the fact that they were modified in a much more lasting way than Cyborg of the Teen Titans who just had machine parts to replace the missing limbs and I'm assuming internal organs that he lost during the tragic accident that almost killed him and required his father to turn him into well Cyborg. as to brain washing dende, I could see it happening, though theres no need. just ask porunga to follow the same steps dende would need to do to upgrade shenron. See I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you mean that Porunga would pick a point in the past when Dende either created Shenron or at a point he modified Shenron to make Dende alter Shenron differently in a way that would make the wish a success. |
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Post by supergojita3 on Oct 14, 2019 0:17:28 GMT
the dragon can't grant a wish that exceeds its creators strength, so moving say, a snail against its will is fine, as a snail is weak. Goku on the other hand was too strong to do anything to, as well as when they tried to kill the saiyans via shenron and it failed for the same reason. I don't recall, but I think a person wished for the right to rule the world as a legend, but this was just speculation on bulmas part, I think. gotta re read the manga, but they did wish to erase the memories of buu in dbz, so unless the person is too strong, the wish can't be granted. same as how the androids were too strong to be made into humans again. I actually don't think that's a problem. They have had Porunga teleport Piccolo to Namek during the Namek Saga and Piccolo even pre-absorbing Nail and post training with King Kai should've been much stronger than Grand Elder Guru. Now as for teleporting Goku to Earth, I did say that I was pretty sure that that was a filler wish, so it was likely never made in the manga. Also Porunga didn't say it was outside his power; he just said that he refused to grant the wish because he contacted Goku telepathically and Goku told Porunga that he didn't want to leave Planet Yardrat. Basically in that filler scene, Porunga chose not to grant a wish because he didn't want to do something against Goku's wishes in regards to teleporting Goku back to Earth. Honestly I'm assuming that he even did that was because Toei knew teleporting people from one location to another was possible, but couldn't have Porunga bring Goku back to Earth in a non-canon scene because Goku canonically wouldn't return to Earth until after Future Trunks shows up. As for erasing Buu's memories, I don't think they ever wished for such a thing. They wished that the population of Earth would forget about the existence of Majin Buu so that Fat Buu could live on Earth with Mr Satan without people freaking out that the monster that killed so many people was so casually walking around. Regarding turning the Cyborgs back into humans, it was beyond Shenron's power because I'd imagine it was beyond Dende's abilities prior to restoring Shenron to undo the merging of flesh and technology. After all it would seem that Dr Gero didn't just graft machinery onto the bodies of Lapis and Lazuli (the human names of his victims), but it would instead seem that he merged their biology with machinery probably using nanobot technology to perform countless surgical procedures on the molecular level to fuse flesh and blood with machinery. I think restoring their normal flesh and blood bodies was just too much for Shenron to do. I'd imagine it would definitely be within the power of Shenron to take someone who was flesh and blood with machine parts grafted onto them like say Cyborg from the Teen Titans and replace the machine parts with their original flesh and blood parts. I could totally seem Shenron being able to magically remove machine parts that were grafted onto flesh and blood mangled bodies and then instantaneously replace the machine parts with regrown biological parts. After all Perfect Cell put a hole in Vegeta's Trunks and when they wished that Shenron bring Trunks back to life, he didn't have the hole in his body that killed him, which means that Shenron can restore flesh wounds so I don't see why he couldn't also replace whole missing limbs and organs onto someone like Cyborg from the Teen Titans. I just think he can't pull an Orihime on 17 & 18 and restore them to their original bodies due to the fact that they were modified in a much more lasting way than Cyborg of the Teen Titans who just had machine parts to replace the missing limbs and I'm assuming internal organs that he lost during the tragic accident that almost killed him and required his father to turn him into well Cyborg. as to brain washing dende, I could see it happening, though theres no need. just ask porunga to follow the same steps dende would need to do to upgrade shenron. See I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you mean that Porunga would pick a point in the past when Dende either created Shenron or at a point he modified Shenron to make Dende alter Shenron differently in a way that would make the wish a success. piccolo wanted to go to namek, where as goku was like "no way jose'" as for 17 and 18 being restored to humans, I'd have to re read the wording by shenron, but I'm under the impression that he couldn't do it because it was not 17's will to be restored, and he was too strong for shenron to do anything to him, as porunga revived 18 in the buu saga and restored her to an android as she died in a candy form. freeza died as chpped up pieces and was not restored to a full organic form, or even as a cyborg freeza because the dragons can pick whether they offer that as a free service. WE know this because porunga retored krillin stating he repaired his damaged body and clothing as a free service. So restoring the 2 androids back to humans in theory should follow the same rules as changing 18 from a candy into an android. |
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Post by Kor Saiyajinkami on Oct 14, 2019 12:58:13 GMT
I actually don't think that's a problem. They have had Porunga teleport Piccolo to Namek during the Namek Saga and Piccolo even pre-absorbing Nail and post training with King Kai should've been much stronger than Grand Elder Guru. Now as for teleporting Goku to Earth, I did say that I was pretty sure that that was a filler wish, so it was likely never made in the manga. Also Porunga didn't say it was outside his power; he just said that he refused to grant the wish because he contacted Goku telepathically and Goku told Porunga that he didn't want to leave Planet Yardrat. Basically in that filler scene, Porunga chose not to grant a wish because he didn't want to do something against Goku's wishes in regards to teleporting Goku back to Earth. Honestly I'm assuming that he even did that was because Toei knew teleporting people from one location to another was possible, but couldn't have Porunga bring Goku back to Earth in a non-canon scene because Goku canonically wouldn't return to Earth until after Future Trunks shows up. As for erasing Buu's memories, I don't think they ever wished for such a thing. They wished that the population of Earth would forget about the existence of Majin Buu so that Fat Buu could live on Earth with Mr Satan without people freaking out that the monster that killed so many people was so casually walking around. Regarding turning the Cyborgs back into humans, it was beyond Shenron's power because I'd imagine it was beyond Dende's abilities prior to restoring Shenron to undo the merging of flesh and technology. After all it would seem that Dr Gero didn't just graft machinery onto the bodies of Lapis and Lazuli (the human names of his victims), but it would instead seem that he merged their biology with machinery probably using nanobot technology to perform countless surgical procedures on the molecular level to fuse flesh and blood with machinery. I think restoring their normal flesh and blood bodies was just too much for Shenron to do. I'd imagine it would definitely be within the power of Shenron to take someone who was flesh and blood with machine parts grafted onto them like say Cyborg from the Teen Titans and replace the machine parts with their original flesh and blood parts. I could totally seem Shenron being able to magically remove machine parts that were grafted onto flesh and blood mangled bodies and then instantaneously replace the machine parts with regrown biological parts. After all Perfect Cell put a hole in Vegeta's Trunks and when they wished that Shenron bring Trunks back to life, he didn't have the hole in his body that killed him, which means that Shenron can restore flesh wounds so I don't see why he couldn't also replace whole missing limbs and organs onto someone like Cyborg from the Teen Titans. I just think he can't pull an Orihime on 17 & 18 and restore them to their original bodies due to the fact that they were modified in a much more lasting way than Cyborg of the Teen Titans who just had machine parts to replace the missing limbs and I'm assuming internal organs that he lost during the tragic accident that almost killed him and required his father to turn him into well Cyborg. See I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you mean that Porunga would pick a point in the past when Dende either created Shenron or at a point he modified Shenron to make Dende alter Shenron differently in a way that would make the wish a success. piccolo wanted to go to namek, where as goku was like "no way jose'" as for 17 and 18 being restored to humans, I'd have to re read the wording by shenron, but I'm under the impression that he couldn't do it because it was not 17's will to be restored, and he was too strong for shenron to do anything to him, as porunga revived 18 in the buu saga and restored her to an android as she died in a candy form. freeza died as chpped up pieces and was not restored to a full organic form, or even as a cyborg freeza because the dragons can pick whether they offer that as a free service. WE know this because porunga retored krillin stating he repaired his damaged body and clothing as a free service. So restoring the 2 androids back to humans in theory should follow the same rules as changing 18 from a candy into an android. Except Porunga in the filler scene didn't say that it was beyond his power to grant the wish, he said he refused to grant the wish because he didn't want to do something Goku didn't want to happen. It's more like Porunga could've done it against Goku's will, but chose to not grant the wish because Porunga doesn't disrespect someone and do something if the target of the wish doesn't want it to happen. Imagine me and a hypothetical friend of mine knew you in real lif and my friend got angry at you in person. My friend asks me to punch you, but I ask you first if you want to be punched and you say you don't want to be punched. I then tell my friend that I will not punch you not because I'm incapable of punching you, but because you said you didn't want me to punch you. Porunga is capable of teleporting Goku to Earth against his will, but respects Goku's decision to stay on Yardrat and refuses to grant the wish instead of saying he's incapable of granting the wish. I was under the impression that Shenron said it was beyond his power because it's beyond his power to turn 17 & 18 back into normal humans. If it was like the Porunga situation, then Shenron would've said he could do it, but refused to do it because 17 didn't want to turn back into a human. If it was instead like you posed it, then Shenron should've stated that it's beyond his power to restore 17 to being a human because 17 wishes to remain a cyborg, but he can turn 18 into a human because she is okay with it unlike 17. The thing is he doesn't say that half the wish can be granted and proceeds to ask if they wish to change the wish to only restore 18 back to human. He straight up says it's beyond his power to grant the wish and not that half the wish is beyond his power to grant. Yeah maybe it's within the power of the Eternal Dragon to restore people in their original states before the event that killed them happened if they so choose to do more than exactly what the wish requested, but I assume that with the exception of Vegito the process of turning into candy is death and not that you die after being turned into candy. - I think Vegito can be claimed as some sorta exception because none of the other candy beam victims showed any signs of being alive like talking or moving on their own. As for why Vegito was an exception I'm not sure what the in-Universe explanation would be, but I have some theories. As for the out-of-Universe explanation, I'd bet my life on the reason being that Toriyama thought a fighting coffee candy would be funny and also he didn't want Vegito to lose and become a part of Buu to increase his power since it seems that candy beam victims can be treated as if absorbed like in the case of Evil Buu eating Fat Good Buu to become Super Buu or just digested only as in the case with his other candy beam victims. I'd say for those two reasons he had Vegito be an exception to the death upon turning into candy rule.
So in the case of 18 not being revived as a piece of candy, she died when she became candy and therefore her previous state of living was when she was her non-candy self, so Porunga revived her in that state before the act of death occurred since that is the state of living she can exist in and summoning her as a piece of candy would essentially be summoning her corpse and not her body back to state of being alive. Basically the only way for Porunga to revive anyone who died when turned into candy was to revive them in the form they were in prior to being turned into candy.
Oh and I don't think revival means that Porunga or Shenron can do anything they want to the one they're reviving. Sure maybe they can revive them with clothing and repair their damaged body, I imagine they can't revive them in a state they will be dead in because then they didn't grant the wish to revive them, but instead summoned their corpse. As for Frieza being revived as pieces, I think that Toriyama again changed the rules because he thought something would be funny and Toriyama seems to like to includes funny things even if they create plot holes. It's not like he doesn't create plot holes when he forgets things OR maybe he forgot that the Eternal Dragon restores the revived entity in a state that is able to survive in until they meet their end again either naturally or unnaturally and thought hey maybe it'd be funny if Frieza was revived in pieces and then thrown into one of those healing chambers cuz it would be cool to see him regenerated back to his original body completely. Hell I wouldn't even put it past Toriyama to forget about Mecha Frieza ever having been a thing and assuming Frieza looks like his 4th/final form and not like the Mecha Frieza appearance. Also I wouldn't put it past Toriyama that he also forgot that the healing tanks can't regenerated damaged or missing parts to their proper condition since the healing tank couldn't restore Vegeta's tail. I totally see it being in the realm of possibility that Toriyama remembered that they heal people in a much slower sense than a Senzu Bean and thinking they can regenerate missing parts &/or reconnect separated pieces how they originally were. Those things compiling together could be why Frieza returned in his 4th Form instead of missing parts to be replaced once again with machine parts to make him Mecha Frieza, *cough* Cyborg Frieza *cough*.
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Post by supergojita3 on Oct 15, 2019 3:41:49 GMT
piccolo wanted to go to namek, where as goku was like "no way jose'" as for 17 and 18 being restored to humans, I'd have to re read the wording by shenron, but I'm under the impression that he couldn't do it because it was not 17's will to be restored, and he was too strong for shenron to do anything to him, as porunga revived 18 in the buu saga and restored her to an android as she died in a candy form. freeza died as chpped up pieces and was not restored to a full organic form, or even as a cyborg freeza because the dragons can pick whether they offer that as a free service. WE know this because porunga retored krillin stating he repaired his damaged body and clothing as a free service. So restoring the 2 androids back to humans in theory should follow the same rules as changing 18 from a candy into an android. Except Porunga in the filler scene didn't say that it was beyond his power to grant the wish, he said he refused to grant the wish because he didn't want to do something Goku didn't want to happen. It's more like Porunga could've done it against Goku's will, but chose to not grant the wish because Porunga doesn't disrespect someone and do something if the target of the wish doesn't want it to happen. Imagine me and a hypothetical friend of mine knew you in real lif and my friend got angry at you in person. My friend asks me to punch you, but I ask you first if you want to be punched and you say you don't want to be punched. I then tell my friend that I will not punch you not because I'm incapable of punching you, but because you said you didn't want me to punch you. Porunga is capable of teleporting Goku to Earth against his will, but respects Goku's decision to stay on Yardrat and refuses to grant the wish instead of saying he's incapable of granting the wish. I was under the impression that Shenron said it was beyond his power because it's beyond his power to turn 17 & 18 back into normal humans. If it was like the Porunga situation, then Shenron would've said he could do it, but refused to do it because 17 didn't want to turn back into a human. If it was instead like you posed it, then Shenron should've stated that it's beyond his power to restore 17 to being a human because 17 wishes to remain a cyborg, but he can turn 18 into a human because she is okay with it unlike 17. The thing is he doesn't say that half the wish can be granted and proceeds to ask if they wish to change the wish to only restore 18 back to human. He straight up says it's beyond his power to grant the wish and not that half the wish is beyond his power to grant. Yeah maybe it's within the power of the Eternal Dragon to restore people in their original states before the event that killed them happened if they so choose to do more than exactly what the wish requested, but I assume that with the exception of Vegito the process of turning into candy is death and not that you die after being turned into candy. - I think Vegito can be claimed as some sorta exception because none of the other candy beam victims showed any signs of being alive like talking or moving on their own. As for why Vegito was an exception I'm not sure what the in-Universe explanation would be, but I have some theories. As for the out-of-Universe explanation, I'd bet my life on the reason being that Toriyama thought a fighting coffee candy would be funny and also he didn't want Vegito to lose and become a part of Buu to increase his power since it seems that candy beam victims can be treated as if absorbed like in the case of Evil Buu eating Fat Good Buu to become Super Buu or just digested only as in the case with his other candy beam victims. I'd say for those two reasons he had Vegito be an exception to the death upon turning into candy rule.
So in the case of 18 not being revived as a piece of candy, she died when she became candy and therefore her previous state of living was when she was her non-candy self, so Porunga revived her in that state before the act of death occurred since that is the state of living she can exist in and summoning her as a piece of candy would essentially be summoning her corpse and not her body back to state of being alive. Basically the only way for Porunga to revive anyone who died when turned into candy was to revive them in the form they were in prior to being turned into candy.
Oh and I don't think revival means that Porunga or Shenron can do anything they want to the one they're reviving. Sure maybe they can revive them with clothing and repair their damaged body, I imagine they can't revive them in a state they will be dead in because then they didn't grant the wish to revive them, but instead summoned their corpse. As for Frieza being revived as pieces, I think that Toriyama again changed the rules because he thought something would be funny and Toriyama seems to like to includes funny things even if they create plot holes. It's not like he doesn't create plot holes when he forgets things OR maybe he forgot that the Eternal Dragon restores the revived entity in a state that is able to survive in until they meet their end again either naturally or unnaturally and thought hey maybe it'd be funny if Frieza was revived in pieces and then thrown into one of those healing chambers cuz it would be cool to see him regenerated back to his original body completely. Hell I wouldn't even put it past Toriyama to forget about Mecha Frieza ever having been a thing and assuming Frieza looks like his 4th/final form and not like the Mecha Frieza appearance. Also I wouldn't put it past Toriyama that he also forgot that the healing tanks can't regenerated damaged or missing parts to their proper condition since the healing tank couldn't restore Vegeta's tail. I totally see it being in the realm of possibility that Toriyama remembered that they heal people in a much slower sense than a Senzu Bean and thinking they can regenerate missing parts &/or reconnect separated pieces how they originally were. Those things compiling together could be why Frieza returned in his 4th Form instead of missing parts to be replaced once again with machine parts to make him Mecha Frieza, *cough* Cyborg Frieza *cough*.
its not filler. porunga said it in the manga too.  now, if goku refused, its likely the same reason why the saiyans couldn't be killed. vegeta was stronger than shenron. Porunga and shenron can't effect beings who are stronger than them, unless they accept the change. Otherwise what is the point of the ability to wish something? Its not that anyone can refuse a wish, but the strength of the person being afflicted.  shenron and porunga are both dragons and follow similar rules, with the exception of what the makers put on them as restrictions. Kami allowed multiple ressurections, but only one ressurection per person. Guru allowed unlimited ressurections, but one at a time. They both however can't effect people stronger than them without permission. Vegeta wouldn't have allowed shenron to kill him, but can be warped from namek to earth. Goku couldn't be moved, but allowed to be healed vs buu. Now, what happens then if the person is a candy, but is stronger in their original form? Could porunga change 18 who was a candy into a human? probably. Because her power was mechanical. shes not a machine any more, and without her machine power, she can't refuse the wish. But as an android she would be too strong to be effected. Not anyone can refuse a wish, other wise the dragons are worthless, and only serve as revive 1 up dragons, which they usually do anyway, and this would only undermine their ability to do many things, like if someone wanted to rule the world, could a small child refuse to be brain washed? no, as we see later in the buu saga everyone was wished to forget buu aside from the main cast. Certainly someone would have wanted to remember, but 99% of earth forgot. >So in the case of 18 not being revived as a piece of candy, she died when she became candy a vegetto was still alive as a candy. the candy process does not kill you. if it did, then vegetto would have died too. >I was under the impression that Shenron said it was beyond his power because it's beyond his power to turn 17 & 18 back into normal humans.  "their powers" "against their will" not as in "I cant do it on principle" The strength is the determining principle here. > I think that Toriyama again changed the rules because he thought something would be funny and Toriyama seems to like to includes funny things even if they create plot holes Its not a plot hole. porunga announded he did it as a free service, implying he didn't have to. And we see later on what happens when free service is not administered. shenron even says he would be in pieces. >I think Vegito can be claimed as some sorta exception because none of the other candy beam victims showed any signs of being alive like talking or moving on their own. Buu ate everyone quickly, not allowing them time to figure out how their body works, not that it mattered. Vegetto was given plenty of time to do this as buu boasted for a while. The only candy person who was strong would have been dabura, and he was eaten immediately. The anime gave candy people eyes, and krillin didn't turn back to normal from daburas stone spit until AFTER he was eaten, so they must still live and vegetto is proof of this. > I totally see it being in the realm of possibility that Toriyama remembered that they heal people in a much slower sense than a Senzu Bean and thinking they can regenerate missing parts &/or reconnect separated pieces how they originally were. Those things compiling together could be why Frieza returned in his 4th Form instead of missing parts to be replaced once again with machine parts to make him Mecha Frieza, *cough* Cyborg Frieza *cough*. freeza came back as a cyborg chopped up, and they had to use the special regeneration tanks mentioned in the movie. All these were addressed in the film. |
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Post by NeuroticNyx on Mar 13, 2022 1:33:56 GMT
Interesting though I'm not sure I like the idea of Porunga using magic to mind control Dende in the past to do something like that. I'm not even sure I like Porunga inserting ideas into Dende's mind as if Dende himself thought up said ideas, but that could just be because I remember Porunga refusing to grant certain wishes like wishing Goku back to Earth from Yardrat. Now that being said, I'm pretty sure the whole trying to wish Goku back to Earth only happened in the anime as if I'm not mistaken the manga just more or less alluded to the fact that Porunga was summoned to bring back the rest of the Z-Fighters that died during Saiyan Saga and then wish that the Namekians except Piccolo and Kami were sent to a new planet. I don't think that part happened in the manga, so if that's true then it's likely the whole Porunga refusing wishes based off needing permission from the target of the wish is non-canon.
the dragon can't grant a wish that exceeds its creators strength, so moving say, a snail against its will is fine, as a snail is weak. Goku on the other hand was too strong to do anything to, as well as when they tried to kill the saiyans via shenron and it failed for the same reason. I don't recall, but I think a person wished for the right to rule the world as a legend, but this was just speculation on bulmas part, I think. gotta re read the manga, but they did wish to erase the memories of buu in dbz, so unless the person is too strong, the wish can't be granted. same as how the androids were too strong to be made into humans again. as to brain washing dende, I could see it happening, though theres no need. just ask porunga to follow the same steps dende would need to do to upgrade shenron. I'm necroposting, but can he grant a wish that would affect the strong person indirectly? If I wished for high grade radiation to emit an inch away from Goku's crotch until he gets testicular cancer, would that work? After all its not the wish affecting him, its the result of the wish doing it. |
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Post by supergojita3 on Mar 13, 2022 10:05:53 GMT
the dragon can't grant a wish that exceeds its creators strength, so moving say, a snail against its will is fine, as a snail is weak. Goku on the other hand was too strong to do anything to, as well as when they tried to kill the saiyans via shenron and it failed for the same reason. I don't recall, but I think a person wished for the right to rule the world as a legend, but this was just speculation on bulmas part, I think. gotta re read the manga, but they did wish to erase the memories of buu in dbz, so unless the person is too strong, the wish can't be granted. same as how the androids were too strong to be made into humans again. as to brain washing dende, I could see it happening, though theres no need. just ask porunga to follow the same steps dende would need to do to upgrade shenron. I'm necroposting, but can he grant a wish that would affect the strong person indirectly? If I wished for high grade radiation to emit an inch away from Goku's crotch until he gets testicular cancer, would that work? After all its not the wish affecting him, its the result of the wish doing it. well, sure. you aren't wishing goku to have cancer, you're providing a source to give him cancer. 1 wish is possible, the other isn't. |
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Post by godjacob on Mar 13, 2022 18:36:07 GMT
The issue with Porunga and well all dragons is the fact that because the creator of the set of Dragon Balls can just make upgrades to what the dragon can do on a whim, it gives a hard scale for what is and is not possible with them.
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