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Post by Axalon on Jun 22, 2020 4:07:52 GMT
So I was writing up my thoughts on the latest chapter of DBS (Chapter 61) and while I was doing this a thought occurred to me that I'm going to expand on here and the timing of it couldn't have been better considering current happenings. I am going to call this phenomenon...you guessed it, breaking the scouter. DBM, literally all of DBM, is a secret ploy to make readers empathasize with Vegeta in DBZ. One of Vegeta's most famous, if not THE most famous line, is the classic line of "It's OVER 9000!". But why does Vegeta get so upset about this? Fundamentally it comes down to expectations. Consider Vegeta's point of view. He is the Prince of All Saiyans, proud of his 18,000 power level and Nappa works for Vegeta. Raditz works for them and his Saibaman power level is only tolerated because of how few Saiyans there are, otherwise Vegeta would never associate with such low-class scum. Everything has its proper place. Everything fits in the hierarchy. Frieza is at the top, followed by the Ginyu Force, followed by Frieza's right and left-hand henchmen, followed by Vegeta, followed by Nappa. Goku, as a low-class Saiyan, naturally falls fairly low on this totem pole, after all, he couldn't even beat Raditz! Until suddenly his power level is over 9000. This is NOT the natural order of things.  Goku would later increase his power level even further, and in turn this would incense Vegeta so badly that to this day, even in subsequent sequel media, whether DBM or DBS, he's obsessed with one-upping him. But here, in this moment, Vegeta hates what he sees. This was supposed to be an easy job. Wipe out the lower life forms, take the Dragon Balls, become immortal. They even planted some Saibamen and were having a grand old time. But then Goku arrives, his power level is OVER 9000, and Vegeta crushes his scouter in rage. It's not that Goku has overwhelming power, as Vegeta has over twice the power level and doesn't know about Kaioken, Goku is simply an aberration that shouldn't be happening. He hates it. He hates it a lot, and it's happening right in front of him. He breaks the scouter.  So now let us take this example and put a spin on it. Let's say Vegeta is a longstanding fan of a franchise, one he's followed for many years. Rules are in place, conventions established, the setting is firmly in place. Vegeta continues following the franchise and then suddenly it doesn't work quite like it used to. Suddenly a new character enters and defies all logic and sense and blatantly breaks the rules as they break their limits to succeed despite all odds. To clarify, "breaking the scouter" does not include simple whining for the sake of whining, or expressing dislike because of political views or anything of that nature. "Breaking the scouter" is when the logic simply...breaks. Breaks like Vegeta's scouter. Really any time a scouter breaks in DBZ is symbolic of such a moment, but Vegeta is the most classic example. "What do you mean Kakarot's power level is over 9,000?" "What do you mean Kakarot trained for a few weeks and can defeat Recoome in a single attack?" "I have become the legendary Super Saiyan! Nothing in the universe can harm me!"  "What do you mean Kakarot has a level beyond Super Saiyan 2? YOU MEAN HE HELD BACK ON ME?!"  Let's tackle something that isn't Dragon Ball related at all. Let's do Star Wars. Rey Palpatine Skywalker made many a Star Wars fan Break the Scouter at some point. - "What do you mean she overpowered Kylo Ren in the mind interrogation room without any training?" - "How can Rey lift half a mountain when Luke couldn't lift an X-Wing and had trouble lifting a small rock and R2-D2 at the same time?" - "How in the world did she *accidentally* do Force Lightning?" "Axalon, you've been ranting for a long time now, what does this have to do with Salagir and DBM?" Ahhhh, so you are prepared at last my young Padawans? Let us consider a controversial character. U16 Bra. She won't be the only example, but it's topical given current events:  "What do you mean she just BROKE the Majin spell?! Vegeta didn't do that!"  "What do you mean she has afterimages that turn into slime and pin the opponent down? Afterimages don't do that!"  "What do you mean Raichi only used Vegeta and Broly? Why wouldn't he use other Ghosts?!"  "What do you mean Cooler didn't avenge his brother when his entire first movie appearance as well as the specials based on those is about going to the backwater Planet Earth from across the universe purely to avenge Frieza?" If you have had a moment like that, either in DBM or elsewhere, you have Broken The Scouter. Vegeta's life is one of constant pain. Now you too know this pain. You know the pain of Vegeta. Feel what Salagir has intended you to feel and bask in your newfound knowledge. Knowledge is power, guard it well. |
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Post by Xeno Black on Jun 22, 2020 5:39:13 GMT
You have a lot of time on your hands Axalon lol. I am sure that if this was presented on May 9th, our Lord and savior King Piccolo would spare your district for such humor.
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Post by Axalon on Jun 22, 2020 5:41:05 GMT
You have a lot of time on your hands Axalon lol. I am sure that if this was presented on May 9th, our Lord and savior King Piccolo would spare your district for such humor. Not really lol. I'd been piecing this one together for a couple days. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 3:03:09 GMT
This reads like a mix of a shit post and an analytical essay.
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Post by Axalon on Jun 23, 2020 3:17:09 GMT
This reads like a mix of a shit post and an analytical essay. |
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Post by Ultimate Perfection on Jun 23, 2020 4:51:48 GMT
Oh man, first Ashanark and now Axalon... This entire arc really broke you guys...  |
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Post by Axalon on Jun 23, 2020 5:51:07 GMT
Oh man, first Ashanark and now Axalon... This entire arc really broke you guys... LOL. I'm actually not too upset with this latest chapter. It's hella flawed but I dropped my investment in the Majin Rebellion a while back when Gohan and Cell stopped fighting. If I were eagerly anticipating every page I imagine I'd be more upset like most people here seem to be. |
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Post by Solus on Jul 2, 2020 12:07:23 GMT
But Cooler not wiping out the Saiyans in U3 was perfectly logical. He also did not travel to earth in U18 to avenge Freezer. He came there to dispose of a threat, because someone who could defeat Freezer and Cold was also dangerous to him. U3 saiyans were not a threat to him - but Cold was.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 3, 2020 19:50:48 GMT
I would replace the U3 one with Piccolo needing to use his new technique on Cooler and Freeza when he should have been able to kill them easily. The Cooler one isn’t frustrating at all to me. As far as Cooler is concerned if Freeza had trained like him so he didn’t need reduction forms that he wouldn’t have gotten killed by a group of Saiyans.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 3, 2020 22:43:57 GMT
But Cooler not wiping out the Saiyans in U3 was perfectly logical. He also did not travel to earth in U18 to avenge Freezer. He came there to dispose of a threat, because someone who could defeat Freezer and Cold was also dangerous to him. U3 saiyans were not a threat to him - but Cold was. I may have misspoken. He was not there to avenge Frieza, but to restore his family's honor. Minor difference. Unless of course the DBM specials retconned that motivation from the movie. I don't care enough to look it up. I would replace the U3 one with Piccolo needing to use his new technique on Cooler and Freeza when he should have been able to kill them easily. The Cooler one isn’t frustrating at all to me. As far as Cooler is concerned if Freeza had trained like him so he didn’t need reduction forms that he wouldn’t have gotten killed by a group of Saiyans. Yes, a fine addition. |
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Post by Solus on Jul 5, 2020 21:31:04 GMT
But Cooler not wiping out the Saiyans in U3 was perfectly logical. He also did not travel to earth in U18 to avenge Freezer. He came there to dispose of a threat, because someone who could defeat Freezer and Cold was also dangerous to him. U3 saiyans were not a threat to him - but Cold was. I may have misspoken. He was not there to avenge Frieza, but to restore his family's honor. Minor difference. Unless of course the DBM specials retconned that motivation from the movie. I don't care enough to look it up. I would replace the U3 one with Piccolo needing to use his new technique on Cooler and Freeza when he should have been able to kill them easily. The Cooler one isn’t frustrating at all to me. As far as Cooler is concerned if Freeza had trained like him so he didn’t need reduction forms that he wouldn’t have gotten killed by a group of Saiyans. Yes, a fine addition. I get where you are coming from over all, but in this example you are just nitpicky and refuse to go back on it. There is a big difference between bad writing and a reader who doesn't understand simple connections. I don't know about all these other points, but it's perfectly reasonable for U03 Cooler to act the way he did. This is by no means a "breaking the scouter moment". And some of those other instances aren't also in my oppinion. |
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Post by Axalon on Jul 5, 2020 22:57:06 GMT
I may have misspoken. He was not there to avenge Frieza, but to restore his family's honor. Minor difference. Unless of course the DBM specials retconned that motivation from the movie. I don't care enough to look it up. Yes, a fine addition. I get where you are coming from over all, but in this example you are just nitpicky and refuse to go back on it. There is a big difference between bad writing and a reader who doesn't understand simple connections. I don't know about all these other points, but it's perfectly reasonable for U03 Cooler to act the way he did. This is by no means a "breaking the scouter moment". And some of those other instances aren't also in my oppinion. You're taking it much more seriously than I am. This is half-serious, half-joke. But since you insist: U3 Cooler ignoring the Saiyans is, IMO, a terrible decision. Regardless of how you want to dress it up, it's clearly put in place to give them time to establish the empire that Raichi topples. What examples would you put in then, for a Breaking The Scouter moment? And what do you disagree with? |
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Post by Solus on Jul 6, 2020 9:38:29 GMT
I get where you are coming from over all, but in this example you are just nitpicky and refuse to go back on it. There is a big difference between bad writing and a reader who doesn't understand simple connections. I don't know about all these other points, but it's perfectly reasonable for U03 Cooler to act the way he did. This is by no means a "breaking the scouter moment". And some of those other instances aren't also in my oppinion. You're taking it much more seriously than I am. This is half-serious, half-joke. But since you insist: U3 Cooler ignoring the Saiyans is, IMO, a terrible decision. Regardless of how you want to dress it up, it's clearly put in place to give them time to establish the empire that Raichi topples. What examples would you put in then, for a Breaking The Scouter moment? And what do you disagree with? I took it serious because you made a good point with the whole Vegeta thing. I really liked that and it made me understand a bit more, why everyone on Namek was like "Oh yeah, let's just scrap our own very expensive equippment for no reason, LOL".
On U03 Cooler: Yes, it was a terrible decision in hindsight, but a good one at that moment - whereas in DB many decicions that were utterly stupid at the moment turned out to be the right ones - like not killing Vegeta on earth, after he was defeated. But they were right because the plot needed them to be made. Let's revisit U03. Of course, a better decision could have been made. Cooler could have wiped out the planet and leave without a trace, making everybody else think that Freezer and the saiyans killed each other simultaneously. But why would he do so, when he could later capitalize on their strength like he presumably did in U09? Cooler never feared them as his brother did. And he had no reason to do so. Neither would he have any motivation to avenge Freezer or restore family honour, since Freezer didn't die in a fair fight but was simply trapped and could not do anything against it because he was in a reduced form. That could never happen to Cooler. And in case, he did interfere, he could have summoned Cold's wrath on him, which he absolutely doesn't want to. In U18 both Cold and Freezer were dead and Freezer died while in his true form, which means that there was someone out there who was a real threat for Cooler. U03 saiyans weren't.
There are too many of such moments in DB to count them after the saiyan saga. Power-ups were dealt out like steam sales, so I won't go into that. But let's stay with DBM. You complained about Raichi not using any other ghosts against Gast. And I'm not sure on this one. After seing how Vegeta dealt with everything Raichi had, it would not have made any sense to summon those ghosts. Gast has proven that he is not one to be chasing after little fries but going for the kill right away, when he shot right through all the namekians and attacked Raichi's bubble. The strongest ghost after Vegeta was Cell Jr. - by a long shot. And this one was only there, because Gast one shot him. So what could have other ghosts besides Vegeta and Broly acchieve except giving Asura more to draw and thus forcing in another special before that fight could have happened? Sure, Raichi could have summoned other ghosts to look out for anything suspicious when the countdown started. But even if they'd been able to spot Gast, they could not have stopped him. And as I explained years ago, when the fight happened, Vegeta's choice for his spot to observe the arena was not that bad. He was above Raichi and a few meters away to have a good overview into every direction. Would he have stayed right by Raichi's side, he would have had a massive blind spot. And also if Gast appeared behind Raichi and Vegeta (like he eventually did), Vegeta couldn't have reacted without Raichi being in the way. So nothing to complain from my side. More ghosts would not have dragged the battle out, but only the pacing.
Yet, I agree with you on Bra. There is no precedent that anyone ever broke the majin seal, although they broke the mind control. While I can understand Salagir's reasoning behind it, that neither Vegeta nor Cell were controlled in the first place and thus had no need to get rid of the spell, it opens up something that never happened before and thus makes the reader question which rules there are and whether they could count on them or not. A story is hard to predict without any rules of what is possible and what isn't. I don't have a problem with her doing it per se, nor with the fact that she was the first one to do it. No one else was ever shown to be forced to do things that they didn't want to do that much. Nor do I have a problem with her after images being that sticky. Why not? That's like criticizing Piccolo's homing beam in the budokai tenkaichi and saying "That's not, how beams work. They don't follow their targets." or criticizing Gotenks' volley ball or his kamikaze ghosts. They just took already existing techniques and made them better. How is it hard to believe that Bra came up with something like that? Which isn't even a given fact btw. Maybe Vegetto came up with it and only taught it to her.
There are other problems like Bra knowing about Cell's nucleus. That was a breaking the scouter moment for me. It made me very angry, but it doesn't ruin the whole story for me.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 6, 2020 18:42:04 GMT
Let's revisit U03. Of course, a better decision could have been made. Cooler could have wiped out the planet and leave without a trace, making everybody else think that Freezer and the saiyans killed each other simultaneously. But why would he do so, when he could later capitalize on their strength like he presumably did in U09? Cooler never feared them as his brother did. And he had no reason to do so. Neither would he have any motivation to avenge Freezer or restore family honour, since Freezer didn't die in a fair fight but was simply trapped and could not do anything against it because he was in a reduced form. That could never happen to Cooler. And in case, he did interfere, he could have summoned Cold's wrath on him, which he absolutely doesn't want to. To set an example. Frieza's death set off a chain of revolts into thinking the regime is vulnerable and that anyone could topple the Frost Demons. What better way to kill that momentum than for Cooler to casually wipe them out and establish that it doesn't matter, Frieza is weak and got killed by monkeys, I killed the monkeys, now get back to making Space Jordan shoes for me you peons. Instead Cooler for some reason spends his time attacking Frieza's forces and THEN addresses the rebellions and THEN addresses the Saiyans, who have done nothing but expand and grow. In U18 both Cold and Freezer were dead and Freezer died while in his true form, which means that there was someone out there who was a real threat for Cooler. U03 saiyans weren't.  Cold was killed in his reduced form, much like Frieza was in U3. U18 Cooler doesn't waffle around for a few years, shrugging it off as Cold being stupid for not transforming like he does in U3 with Frieza and choosing to cannibalize territory from Cold and Frieza first, he goes straight for Goku the INSTANT he gets the news, after declaring that he was the strongest in the universe. Why? Were no rebellions happening in U18 after Frieza and Cold got themselves killed? That's two-thirds of the Frost Demon triumvirate wiped out. Contrast this to U3 Cooler who for years allows the race that killed Frieza to go completely unharmed. Why does Cooler care more about the guy who doesn't even leave Earth unless he absolutely has to that killed his brother, but the neighboring and growing space empire who killed his brother gets a free pass for years when Goku didn't even get a week? I mean, he doesn't even write them a scathing letter. He does nothing to them for years. Avenging his family's honor had nothing to do with Frieza "losing in a fair fight" and more the fact that Frieza allowed himself to be killed in the first place, hence why he hunted down Goku. The fact that Frieza died, either to a Super Saiyan or to a bunch of giant monkeys, should produce the same result from Cooler. Yet it does not. Cooler chooses to kill the Ginyus of all people over the Saiyans, when they could've easily folded into his own forces per Cold ordering them to become part of Cooler's empire.  If U18 Cooler were like U3 Cooler: "My father dying was his own fault. I'm now the strongest in the universe! This so-called 'Super Saiyan' is going to die...just as soon as I claim the entire Frost Demon empire!" There are too many of such moments in DB to count them after the saiyan saga. Power-ups were dealt out like steam sales, so I won't go into that. But let's stay with DBM. You complained about Raichi not using any other ghosts against Gast. And I'm not sure on this one. After seing how Vegeta dealt with everything Raichi had, it would not have made any sense to summon those ghosts. Gast has proven that he is not one to be chasing after little fries but going for the kill right away, when he shot right through all the namekians and attacked Raichi's bubble. The strongest ghost after Vegeta was Cell Jr. - by a long shot. And this one was only there, because Gast one shot him. So what could have other ghosts besides Vegeta and Broly acchieve except giving Asura more to draw and thus forcing in another special before that fight could have happened? Sure, Raichi could have summoned other ghosts to look out for anything suspicious when the countdown started. But even if they'd been able to spot Gast, they could not have stopped him. And as I explained years ago, when the fight happened, Vegeta's choice for his spot to observe the arena was not that bad. He was above Raichi and a few meters away to have a good overview into every direction. Would he have stayed right by Raichi's side, he would have had a massive blind spot. And also if Gast appeared behind Raichi and Vegeta (like he eventually did), Vegeta couldn't have reacted without Raichi being in the way. So nothing to complain from my side. More ghosts would not have dragged the battle out, but only the pacing. And yet, Vegeta had a massive blind spot that Gast exploited.  What good is a lookout in a good spot for observing when he isn't looking? Why not have multiple lookouts? Why not have more meat shields? You're right, the Ghosts couldn't have stopped him. What they COULD do is warn Raichi that Gast is alive in the first place, maybe even see him regenerating (since he's helpless during that time), give Vegeta time to start attacking Gast again. Vegeta has a decent spot to view things, but his eyes can't be everywhere at once. Even better, how about Raichi summons Ghosts anyway...but then Gast still kills him just as quickly? It achieves the same result, but makes Raichi look less like an idiot. That alone wouldn't stop Raichi from looking like an idiot entirely as the entire fight was Idiot Ball, but it would've helped a little. Yet, I agree with you on Bra. There is no precedent that anyone ever broke the majin seal, although they broke the mind control. While I can understand Salagir's reasoning behind it, that neither Vegeta nor Cell were controlled in the first place and thus had no need to get rid of the spell, it opens up something that never happened before and thus makes the reader question which rules there are and whether they could count on them or not. A story is hard to predict without any rules of what is possible and what isn't. And thus we have the entire concept of Breaking the Scouter. (Not to mention that for one to be Majinized you have to be controlled, which Vegeta and others admit he was multiple times but I digress...) I don't have a problem with her doing it per se, nor with the fact that she was the first one to do it. No one else was ever shown to be forced to do things that they didn't want to do that much. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are we talking about Bra being forced to do things? Majinized people? Because DBZ gives us a clear example of what happens when you resist being told what to do by Babadi.  The only reason Babadi even lets Vegeta's impudence get that far is because Dabura advises him to just let him fight Goku anyway for mutual gain (and later when he has Buu so Vegeta is a useless instrument to be discarded). Pain on not following Babadi's commands is seemingly ignored in DBM, as we see with Cell. We know what he looks like when under Babadi's mental torture.   That or Cell is so far away from Babadi's control that Babadi simply has no effect on Cell anymore, which begs the question as to why CELL didn't shatter the spell? If anything he's a level beyond the then-unprecedented Majin Vegeta in that not only is he able to resist the commands, he can do so without using every fiber of his being to resist as well. Yet Bra, willing puppet, is able to break what even Cell cannot? It's far more likely that Bra wasn't forced to do anything at all given the wanton abandon she kills everyone with. Which is why Bra breaking it is an issue, since Vegeta was an unprecedented event in Majin history--he was able to partially resist in the first place. From Babadi's perspective, Vegeta resisting his commands is a Breaking The Scouter moment. Yet even in full-blown rebellion mode the spell is never broken. Vegeta's ashen corpse still bears the Majin symbol before disintegrating. Bra gleefully accepts her new role with relish, but the first time SHE resists she's able to go to the next level beyond Cell's next level beyond Vegeta's level? Nor do I have a problem with her after images being that sticky. Why not? That's like criticizing Piccolo's homing beam in the budokai tenkaichi and saying "That's not, how beams work. They don't follow their targets."Which, at the time, would be a Breaking The Scouter moment. Even Goku was dismissive of the attack until Piccolo suddenly turned it around and locked onto him with it.  All of DB has gone up to that point with beams firing straight and true. You miss, you miss. We're now at the final stage of DB before the advent of DBZ and now that devilish and totally-not-slug Piccolo Jr has turned the concepts of beams on its own head! It's accepted NOW, but at the time was unique and decidedly different. You summed it up very well yourself: There is no precedent that anyone ever broke the majin seal, although they broke the mind control. While I can understand Salagir's reasoning behind it, that neither Vegeta nor Cell were controlled in the first place and thus had no need to get rid of the spell, it opens up something that never happened before and thus makes the reader question which rules there are and whether they could count on them or not. A story is hard to predict without any rules of what is possible and what isn'tThere was no precedent for lifelike ki ghost constructs until Gotenks vomited them out. Speaking of: What did Gotenks improve upon with these? Genuine question. Vegito could very well have come up with it. We don't know. Ultimately the point is something happens that breaks the logic of the situation and how things are supposed to be. Vegeta can't accept that a low-class scum could come back from the literal dead and then not only that, come back stronger than Nappa with a PL that's over 9,000. The universe isn't supposed to work like that! How can Kakarot do these things?! *Breaks scouter* You see? Embrace it! Ultimately there are going to be disagreements. What's fine for some is fine for others. The likes of Krillin naturally accept that Goku can get radically stronger after some training, whereas to Saiyan Saga Vegeta it's unthinkable. Just acknowledge that sometimes...things break! Like scouters. 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Post by Solus on Jul 7, 2020 6:24:24 GMT
With your ranting you made it seem, like it was something bad. I'm not sure about that now, so I refrain from discussing this further.
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Post by Saudade on Jul 7, 2020 13:17:43 GMT
With your ranting you made it seem, like it was something bad. I'm not sure about that now, so I refrain from discussing this further. I'm also confused, I thought this was a critique but the the latter post seems to imply this is just the nature of storytelling |
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Post by Axalon on Jul 7, 2020 13:32:05 GMT
With your ranting you made it seem, like it was something bad. I'm not sure about that now, so I refrain from discussing this further. Well generally speaking it is bad. I’m just having a good laugh about it too. Rules are set in place and are then broken. This is not to be confused with “I didn’t like this”, but simply acknowledging that something is broken logically when before there were rules or patterns. Rey in Star Wars is a good non-DB example of this. Does in the span of a minute what practically all Jedi would take years of training to do. Even the literal Force Jesus, Anakin Skywalker, required years of training. This is why so many complain she’s a Mary Sue. Many Star Wars fans “broke their scouter” at all the things she was doing. Lightspeed ramming is another scouter breaking Star Wars moment. If such a thing were possible, why waste so much time building a Death Star? Why not just use the much cheaper route of lightspeed ramming something? Raichi has a chess master approach to fighting, but suddenly decides two pieces, one of whom he can’t even control anymore because MAXIMUM, are enough to deal with an opponent he isn’t even sure is dead when he can summon literal armies for protection and over watch. Vegeta is the first person in history to even defy Babadi, but then Cell one-ups him by not even feeling pain at disobeying a command, and then Bra one-ups Cell by not only being unable to resist like Cell or Vegeta and gleefully being a puppet, but the first time she resists she breaks the spell completely and pretty much instantly. Or we could go something simpler. Bra knows about Cell’s nucleus. She was born like a decade after Cell died, has probably only ever seen old footage of Cell prior to seeing him here, and yet knows exactly what his nucleus looks like, the fact that he has a nucleus at all, and has no reason to believe Cell could’ve survived an attack like hers, being that he was already practically dead as it was. |
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Post by Solus on Jul 9, 2020 15:08:55 GMT
With your ranting you made it seem, like it was something bad. I'm not sure about that now, so I refrain from discussing this further. Well generally speaking it is bad. I’m just having a good laugh about it too. Rules are set in place and are then broken. This is not to be confused with “I didn’t like this”, but simply acknowledging that something is broken logically when before there were rules or patterns. Rey in Star Wars is a good non-DB example of this. Does in the span of a minute what practically all Jedi would take years of training to do. Even the literal Force Jesus, Anakin Skywalker, required years of training. This is why so many complain she’s a Mary Sue. Many Star Wars fans “broke their scouter” at all the things she was doing. Lightspeed ramming is another scouter breaking Star Wars moment. If such a thing were possible, why waste so much time building a Death Star? Why not just use the much cheaper route of lightspeed ramming something? Raichi has a chess master approach to fighting, but suddenly decides two pieces, one of whom he can’t even control anymore because MAXIMUM, are enough to deal with an opponent he isn’t even sure is dead when he can summon literal armies for protection and over watch. Vegeta is the first person in history to even defy Babadi, but then Cell one-ups him by not even feeling pain at disobeying a command, and then Bra one-ups Cell by not only being unable to resist like Cell or Vegeta and gleefully being a puppet, but the first time she resists she breaks the spell completely and pretty much instantly. Or we could go something simpler. Bra knows about Cell’s nucleus. She was born like a decade after Cell died, has probably only ever seen old footage of Cell prior to seeing him here, and yet knows exactly what his nucleus looks like, the fact that he has a nucleus at all, and has no reason to believe Cell could’ve survived an attack like hers, being that he was already practically dead as it was. Oh, please don't let us talk about Star Wars here. I'd say, nothing in DBM was ever as much of an asspull as anything related to Rey. But let's ggo back to Raichi for the sake of the argument. You say, he is a chess player. If you'd play chess and you'd suppose that it's very probable you already defeated your opponent, would you then, considering that all the pieces you use cannot be used in your next game, while the two pieces you already used were enough to defeat your opponent, summon more pieces? Although Raichi knew about Gast's ability to instantly destroy his shield, the one time it happened he could immediately react to summon Vegeta. I guess, even Cell Jr. would have been enough to stop Gast from destroying the orb just long enough for Vegeta to arrive. So Raichi felt save (which was obviously a missjudgment) and did the most logical thing in foresight of his next battle. While all other fighters could be healed immediately after their fight, no one except Buu could recharge Raichi's orb, so he had to be ressourcefull if he wanted to stay in the tournament. Of course, after he would have defeated Gast, he'd have his ghost, but nothing else. He could not count on anyone to die until his next match. So while I do agree that in case you are loosing, saving ghosts for a next match doesn't make sense, Raichi saw himself as winning. And in this case summoning more ghosts would be just a waste of ressources. And about Broly not being controllable anymore: Was he contrallable at all? I mean, once summoned he had a clear target. But as soon as it vanished, he attacked anything in sight. Would he return to the fight, once he noticed Gast? We don't know. But my guess is, he would.
Also, I must beat the dead horse here. U03 Cooler didn't kill the saiyans right away, because he wasn't allowed to be in this territory. But he expected to get controll of that territory soon (which might have happened eventually). But at this point, he couldn't face them because of Bardock's visions. It was explicitly shown in the special, that everytime Cooler wanted to face them they fled from him. Now he could have nuked every planet, so the saiyans could not hide anywhere, but he wanted to rule the universe, not destroy it. Worst case scenario would be that Cooler has to destroy every planet in the known universe while he chases after the saiyans who conquer one planet after another, but he could never catch up to them, because Bardock saw every single move he made.
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Post by Axalon on Jul 9, 2020 20:51:45 GMT
But let's ggo back to Raichi for the sake of the argument. You say, he is a chess player. If you'd play chess and you'd suppose that it's very probable you already defeated your opponent, would you then, considering that all the pieces you use cannot be used in your next game, while the two pieces you already used were enough to defeat your opponent, summon more pieces? If I wasn't sure if the opponent was defeated and my two pieces is more like one piece while my second piece is running off the board and trying to punch the game of Monopoly next door and distracting my first piece? YES I would summon more pieces! There's being resourceful, and then not using your resources at all. In fact, when he fought Vegeta we saw Raichi do the opposite of how he fought Gast. Raichi straight up wasted Broly--his most powerful Ghost--and his entire Saiyan collection (aside from Ghost Vegeta) for no reason whatsoever and allowed Vegeta to kill him without even fighting back. It's like someone else grabbed Raichi's controller between fights and had an entirely different playstyle. Yes he was controllable. Broly was able to successfully work with Vegeta to tag-team Gast. Raichi very quickly lost control afterwards, but he was initially controllable. A flimsy excuse really. Frieza's not going to complain at this point because he's dead and Cooler is already confident that Cold is going to give him the territory anyway. Using Bardock's visions to justify it is iffy since the entire point of U3 is that the future can be changed from Bardock's visions. Planet Vegeta at the very least should've been carved up on a platter, even if there wasn't a single Saiyan on it. For the symbolism if nothing else. |
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