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Post by Smilingblade3 on Oct 8, 2020 19:13:38 GMT
Can someone explain how SSJ3 works in DBM canon? Is it still the same 400x base multiplier that it is in the original DBZ? How does it's strengths and weaknesses compare with the normal version of it in DBZ?
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Post by EvilXoda on Oct 8, 2020 20:46:41 GMT
It's pretty much the same in DBM as it is in DBZ, but for a couple of differences;
The multiplier is interpreted as likely higher than the original DBZ. SSJ2 is considered somewhere around 10x, and the same with SSJ3. So basically SSJ3 is like a 5000x base multiplier, SSJ levels are more like a tiers.
Secondly, the stronger a person's base is when they use SSJ3, the quicker it burns out, which is why Goku uses it in bursts, and it only lasts for like seconds with Vegetto.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 9, 2020 3:27:01 GMT
Can someone explain how SSJ3 works in DBM canon? Is it still the same 400x base multiplier that it is in the original DBZ? How does it's strengths and weaknesses compare with the normal version of it in DBZ? I'm honestly not sure. Salagir also seems to be of the opinion that the Oozaru transformation is only a x2 instead of the x10 boost though so I suppose the best answer would be "whatever he feels like it should be".
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Oct 9, 2020 11:14:17 GMT
Can someone explain how SSJ3 works in DBM canon? Is it still the same 400x base multiplier that it is in the original DBZ? How does it's strengths and weaknesses compare with the normal version of it in DBZ? I'm honestly not sure. Salagir also seems to be of the opinion that the Oozaru transformation is only a x2 instead of the x10 boost though so I suppose the best answer would be "whatever he feels like it should be". I know that Goku said that the other forms of SSJ actually revitalize you, in comparison to SSJ3 which rapidly drains your energy. SSJ3 should the the max potential that a saiyan can reach, so it seems kind of weird that once turning SSJ3, the stronger you are, the less the form holds out.
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Post by Saudade on Oct 9, 2020 14:13:43 GMT
I'm honestly not sure. Salagir also seems to be of the opinion that the Oozaru transformation is only a x2 instead of the x10 boost though so I suppose the best answer would be "whatever he feels like it should be". I know that Goku said that the other forms of SSJ actually revitalize you, in comparison to SSJ3 which rapidly drains your energy. SSJ3 should the the max potential that a saiyan can reach, so it seems kind of weird that once turning SSJ3, the stronger you are, the less the form holds out. It's completely dumb, the SSJ system in the fan-manga is broken from my point of view. SSJ3 should honestly be a transformation that is hard to maintain but through training it could reduce or completely eliminate the drawback. But this makes too much sense and Salagir seemingly hates Toryiama simple logic so yeah, we got the aberration that is a 1 second transformation for a fusion
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Post by lssj200000 on Oct 10, 2020 14:24:24 GMT
I know he probably did it to nerf Vegito but he pretty much neutered Gotenks and combined with his SS1 can't beat SS2 and so on he nerfed every other saiyan not named Gohan.
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Post by Smilingblade3 on Oct 12, 2020 12:30:36 GMT
I know he probably did it to nerf Vegito but he pretty much neutered Gotenks and combined with his SS1 can't beat SS2 and so on he nerfed every other saiyan not named Gohan. I feel like having SSJ transformations be a power level rather than a multiplier is a really smart move that makes a lot of sense. However, I also don't agree with the statement that a SSJ1 could NEVER beat a SSJ2, or a SSJ2 could never beat a SSJ3, etc... That's just narrowing the possible fights we could have and nerfing a lot of characters who otherwise could probably have put up a great fight.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 12, 2020 22:40:53 GMT
I know he probably did it to nerf Vegito but he pretty much neutered Gotenks and combined with his SS1 can't beat SS2 and so on he nerfed every other saiyan not named Gohan. I feel like having SSJ transformations be a power level rather than a multiplier is a really smart move that makes a lot of sense. However, I also don't agree with the statement that a SSJ1 could NEVER beat a SSJ2, or a SSJ2 could never beat a SSJ3, etc... That's just narrowing the possible fights we could have and nerfing a lot of characters who otherwise could probably have put up a great fight. I think that stems from Salagir trying to justify in his head why the Saiyan race would need so many transformations to get stronger if they didn’t need to. Like if Goku through training alone could make SS1 as strong as SS3 why would he ever go SS3 or even SS2 again? SS forms cost ki to transform and put a lot of strain on their bodies all while not being really being that ki efficient. Old Kai said a much in Buu arc. He made it so Gohan could use his full power without Super Saiyan transformations to be more efficient. It would stand to reason Goku would figure that out to and train his body up so he wouldn’t need SS transformations just to be more efficient. That could be interesting route to have gone in its own right. Goku and Vegeta in the main universe that just stick to their base or SS1 since they find it more ki efficient and see the other forms as useless add one that are more trouble than they are worth.
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Post by Axalon on Oct 14, 2020 22:52:42 GMT
I feel like having SSJ transformations be a power level rather than a multiplier is a really smart move that makes a lot of sense. However, I also don't agree with the statement that a SSJ1 could NEVER beat a SSJ2, or a SSJ2 could never beat a SSJ3, etc... That's just narrowing the possible fights we could have and nerfing a lot of characters who otherwise could probably have put up a great fight. I think that stems from Salagir trying to justify in his head why the Saiyan race would need so many transformations to get stronger if they didn’t need to. Like if Goku through training alone could make SS1 as strong as SS3 why would he ever go SS3 or even SS2 again? SS forms cost ki to transform and put a lot of strain on their bodies all while not being really being that ki efficient. Old Kai said a much in Buu arc. He made it so Gohan could use his full power without Super Saiyan transformations to be more efficient. It would stand to reason Goku would figure that out to and train his body up so he wouldn’t need SS transformations just to be more efficient. That could be interesting route to have gone in its own right. Goku and Vegeta in the main universe that just stick to their base or SS1 since they find it more ki efficient and see the other forms as useless add one that are more trouble than they are worth. I mean, I think the reason is pretty simple. Even if through training one can eventually get SS1 up to SS3 power, if you can't do that when there's a crisis at hand you're going to need the power of the other forms as a quick shortcut even if SS1 would in the end be the best form. It's simply a matter of timing is all. Well, that and I'm still in the camp of seeing nothing really wrong with SS2. We've never seen any REAL drawbacks to the form other than it being too weak to do anything as the plot moved forward. It doesn't seem to have any real energy drain like SS3, doesn't slow you down like the Ultra form, and all in all just seems like a straight up upgrade. Some people would point to Bra's lack of control at this point but she in general is just unstable to begin with so I would mark her as an outlier. Some would point to Gohan getting sadistic against Cell but that literally only ever happened once and never became an issue again. Goku and Vegeta seemed perfectly normal in SS2, Majin Vegeta weirdness aside.
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Post by Son Pan on Oct 15, 2020 2:15:57 GMT
I think that stems from Salagir trying to justify in his head why the Saiyan race would need so many transformations to get stronger if they didn’t need to. Like if Goku through training alone could make SS1 as strong as SS3 why would he ever go SS3 or even SS2 again? SS forms cost ki to transform and put a lot of strain on their bodies all while not being really being that ki efficient. Old Kai said a much in Buu arc. He made it so Gohan could use his full power without Super Saiyan transformations to be more efficient. It would stand to reason Goku would figure that out to and train his body up so he wouldn’t need SS transformations just to be more efficient. That could be interesting route to have gone in its own right. Goku and Vegeta in the main universe that just stick to their base or SS1 since they find it more ki efficient and see the other forms as useless add one that are more trouble than they are worth. I mean, I think the reason is pretty simple. Even if through training one can eventually get SS1 up to SS3 power, if you can't do that when there's a crisis at hand you're going to need the power of the other forms as a quick shortcut even if SS1 would in the end be the best form. It's simply a matter of timing is all. Well, that and I'm still in the camp of seeing nothing really wrong with SS2. We've never seen any REAL drawbacks to the form other than it being too weak to do anything as the plot moved forward. It doesn't seem to have any real energy drain like SS3, doesn't slow you down like the Ultra form, and all in all just seems like a straight up upgrade. Some people would point to Bra's lack of control at this point but she in general is just unstable to begin with so I would mark her as an outlier. Some would point to Gohan getting sadistic against Cell but that literally only ever happened once and never became an issue again. Goku and Vegeta seemed perfectly normal in SS2, Majin Vegeta weirdness aside. I agree it is as simple as that in terms of why we each new SS form was created. I think Salagir does try to explain some things left unexplained in DB, like if Cold can transform or not, or he tries to justify things left unsaid. I think Salagir wanted to give a reason for why Saiyans have a generic shortcut if they don’t need it. Like Saiyans evolved in a way that they transform into Super Saiyans as a way to go beyond their physical limits. Not necessarily saying that is what Toriyama ever intended it, but I could see fan theories going in that direction. Fans came up with Goku and Vegeta being SS’s when they knocked up Chi-chi and Bulma were the reason why Goten and Trunks could go SS so easily. Obviously the reason is Toriyama needed them to be SS1 so he just had them turn so fast. Fans always over explain or come up with theories and implement them in fan works all the time. My guess is we have hard limits for Super Saiyans was following his fan theory and to keep power scale from growing like what GT and eventually Super did. I’m in the camp that DB changes whenever the creator wants it to happen and we just have to go with it lol. I mean I don’t even think SS1 showed energy and strain weakness ever, but Goku mentioned them in Cell arc as if that was always the case and it was a big reason for why he and Gohan got so much stronger, so we have to roll with it. If SS1 had the weaknesses even though we didn’t see it and SS3 has those weaknesses to me it is safe to assume SS2 is meant to have those weaknesses.
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Post by NamelessSaiyan on Nov 2, 2020 17:02:47 GMT
Buu saga has a lot of weird stuff. SSJ3 is something Goku acquired in the Other World, where he could train without straining his body as much. Then we see Gotenks magically transform, likely as a side effect of the kids quickly learning SSJ1. I get SSJ1 might be easier, but SSJ3???
SSJ3 itself is also the first major transformation that doesn't conquer the main villain by itself, due to the existence of fusions.
The higher strain of SSJ3 is canon, but if Salagir hadn't nerfed it, it would've been autowin for Vegetto, every single time. It's a bit annoying, but it's logical, considering Gohan's Mystic form was touted as ideal because it boosted him beyong Goku SSJ3 level IIRC but with none of the drawbacks. Salagir simply elaborated on it.
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Post by godjacob on May 1, 2021 19:43:53 GMT
Salagir has a weird view of Super Saiyan. He sees it more as a static power level itself rather than a usual multiplier like every other DB media so we get weird things like a Super Saiyan 1 NEVER being able to beat a Super Saiyan 2 or Super Saiyan 3 being more taxing the stronger you are. The latter was likely made just to give Vegito a nerf but it does fuck over the other non-Mystic Saiyan/Bra characters.
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Post by Son Pan on May 5, 2021 20:21:52 GMT
Salagir has a weird view of Super Saiyan. He sees it more as a static power level itself rather than a usual multiplier like every other DB media so we get weird things like a Super Saiyan 1 NEVER being able to beat a Super Saiyan 2 or Super Saiyan 3 being more taxing the stronger you are. The latter was likely made just to give Vegito a nerf but it does fuck over the other non-Mystic Saiyan/Bra characters. SS3 weakness being exaggerated to give Vegetto weakness wouldn’t surprise to me. I’m sure that is part of the reason. I wouldn’t be surprised if Salagir subscribed to the fan theory that SS3 is a false form because of the energy weakness and we’ll get a true SS3 through Vegeta’s big secret.
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Post by godjacob on May 6, 2021 4:45:08 GMT
Salagir has a weird view of Super Saiyan. He sees it more as a static power level itself rather than a usual multiplier like every other DB media so we get weird things like a Super Saiyan 1 NEVER being able to beat a Super Saiyan 2 or Super Saiyan 3 being more taxing the stronger you are. The latter was likely made just to give Vegito a nerf but it does fuck over the other non-Mystic Saiyan/Bra characters. SS3 weakness being exaggerated to give Vegetto weakness wouldn’t surprise to me. I’m sure that is part of the reason. I wouldn’t be surprised if Salagir subscribed to the fan theory that SS3 is a false form because of the energy weakness and we’ll get a true SS3 through Vegeta’s big secret. Your talk of false forms just made me realize we didn't get a universe to explore the anime-only False SS and I now wish we had gotten that for added fanservice.
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