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Post by عمار on Nov 23, 2020 17:37:54 GMT
Since it seems the the upcoming chapter is an aftermath of the rebellion, I will do like take this opportunity to ask you guys about your thoughts about the arc. Also if you could give me: 1- A short review about the arc (if you want to). 2- In your opinion: What are the pros & the cons? 3- In your opinion: what are: a- The top 5 best & worst characters of the arc overall. b- The top 5 best & worst characters of the Majin side. c- The top 5 best & worst characters of the "good guys" side. 4- And if it was up to you to change things, how the rebellion will play out? a- What will you add & what will you take out from the arc & why? b- Who will win the war? The Majins or the good guys & why? I would loved to write my own thoughts, but right now I don't feel like writing a long rant. So I would like to hear yours instead. Edit: I would like to hear your thoughts especially! Axalon , iron leaf , Ashanark , Xeno Black . & especially especially you supergojita3 , since you're a fan of U16 Bra.
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Post by another1bitesdadusto on Nov 24, 2020 4:07:54 GMT
Seems like I'll be the first to give my piece on the Majin Rebellion Arc. Here goes...
It started off great, and a refreshing change of pace from the Tournament which was admittedly starting to get repetitive, especially since the last two fights (Bra vs Cold/Ginyu, Gast vs Raichi/Hatchiyack) were controversial or disappointing. We get to see characters who didn't get to partake in the tournament a chance to shine, Piccolo and the U19 warriors being the prime examples. A lot of the fights were great (Piccolo vs the Frost Demons, Gohan vs Cell), and Asura's fantastic art makes it even better. His art adds a lot of oomph in the characters' attacks, of how brutal, deadly and creative their attacks are. I'd say that it matches some of Toriyama and Toyotaro's best.
And to be honest, I actually didn't know how the story would go. While it's clear that the rebellion would be put down, we don't know who or how it would end. And that was great to keep the readers on their toes and keep guessing as the pages roll.
Then we have the endgame: Majin Bra. I honestly did not have a lot of problems with the first chapter when she comes in. It addresses a lot of the issues that Bra has, like how she was not so heroic after all. It also makes her character a lot more enjoyable in a Love to Hate way, because she's so unapologetically evil in contrast to being the jerkass c*** we were supposed to root for. And the remaining fighters, because they're much weaker than her, have to work together both smartly and creatively in order to beat her.
Then, it goes downhill during the last two chapters. Suddenly, all the remaining fighters took a massive dose of the dumb-dumb juice, thinking that it's a bright idea to take on someone many times stronger than each of them one-by-one. The worst part is that they even lampshade it, but none of them do anything about it. But the moment that things started to suck was the senzu bean moment. Remember that moment during the Bra vs Cold fight that caused it to turn from one of the best to one of the worst? Let's do it again! Except this time it's the villain! Who's much stronger than all of them! Sure! WHY NOT UNDO ALL OUR HEROES' EFFORTS THAT MADE AN ENTIRE CHAPTER BEFORE POINTLESS!?
Next chapter is even worse, characters start dropping like flies, the heroes are absolute morons in standing still as Bra picks them off one by one. And it turns out all their efforts are pointless because Majin Bra wins anyway, only getting talked out of it by U18 Bra for the dumbest reasons. It feels rushed, it feels unearned, and worst of all it wastes two whole chapters which were nothing more than to drag out the fight when we could have just skipped straight ahead to this moment. It wouldn't be so bad, if not for the goddamn minicomics in-between without any warning, which hurts the pacing of the story and tests our patience.
Ok, now for my Top 5 best and worst characters of this arc.
Best: 1.) Cell. He's the one who really carried this arc and was one of the few that made the abominable endgame more tolerable. His fight scenes with Gohan was awesome, and shows how much he improved since the Cell Games. I like how he planned everything out, controlling events from behind the scenes so that Babidi would lose. And it really sucks because all of that amounted to NOTHING. He could have been killed by Gohan, and the story wouldn't have changed. 2.) Phipsil. Despite this being the first time we see her, I already like her. Cute and attractive design, yet also badass to boot. She's also one of the few characters to not suffer the Idiot Ball, working together with Gohan to take down Bra and even sacrificing her life to weaken Bra to allow Gohan to have a chance. Sadly, like Cell, it amounted to NOTHING. 3.) Gohan. Both of them. We finally get to see how terrifying he can be when pissed off, mopping up Kakarot, Ginyu and even Cell like they were nothing. It's refreshing after seeing him in Super where he's mostly treated as a joke. I'm one of the few people who actually liked Super, but Gohan is where they really did him dirty. 4.) Piccolo. Similar case with Gohan, it's refreshing to see them do shit after we see them mainly stand on the sidelines since the Buu arc. His fight with Freeza's family was one of the highlights of the arc, and shows that while he may be outclassed by the Saiyans at this point, it doesn't mean that he's still a force to be reckoned with. 5.) U18 Bra. While I hated how the arc ended, it's still satisfying to see her take her counterpart down a peg. Even before this arc, I actually like her character from what we see of her. By virtue of not being Son Bra. She may be a bit bratty, she's not malicious. Her treatment of Goten and Trunks mostly amounted to sibling teasing. Not abuse and MURDER from what we saw last special.
Worst: 1.) Son Bra/Majin Bra. I think my review above speaks for itself. But the reason why she stays at the top spot despite me initially enjoying her character was because of that. It just made it even more insulting. Because of her stupid Plot Armour because Salagir couldn't tolerate the idea of his waifu fantasy losing, even if she's the one we're supposed to root against, she turned from entertaining into insufferable and clearly overstayed her welcome. Her "defeat" just rubs salt to the wound, because it was a moment while satisfying felt completely unearned. I hate Son Bra because she embodies the worst things of a Creator's Pet (a character where the writer/author practices favouritism when writing said character), and she is the one who hurts the arc the most. 2.) Grand Supreme Kai. This dumb fuck was useless throughout the arc. He doesn't do anything, doesn't lift a finger to help the others, and instead wastes his time trying to call Buu for help even when he makes it clear that he doesn't want to. It's especially jarring because conversely in Super's manga, he's shown to be badass and recently played a part in defeating Moro. Here? He's an absolute joke, and that stupid smiling face of his made me cheer for once when Bra stomps his face in. That moment actually made me root for her because of how satisfying it was. 3.) Majin Buu. Good lord, did he contribute nothing! He was a wasted character. He can regenerate from damage, has magic, can heal people, yet none of those were taken advantage of. He only stands around uselessly as everyone else gets slaughtered, and when he finally jumps in, it amounts to NOTHING. 4.) Mary Sue. What a waste of a page. 5.) U9. The only reason why I put them on the list was I actually ran out of people that I hated in this arc, and the fact that they ultimately contributed nothing. They beat the Cell Jr. but that's about it. It would have been interesting for them to join in the fight, and show that just because they're the weakest of the remaining heroes doesn't mean that they're a joke. Their skills and techniques could have been useful in defeating someone who cannot be beaten by raw power. But no, they're put on a bus because Salagir doesn't know what to do with them. Not to mention the fact that some of my bitterness is directed at their horribly wasted special.
If I were to change things, here's how I would play it out.
I would follow Acardy Picardy's draft in the minicomic. Because we see our heroes actually fighting smart, using their numbers, abilities and clever tactics to hold out against Majin Bra instead of holding the Idiot Ball of trying to fight her one-on-one. While Bra clearly has the upper hand in raw power, she can't keep up with so many fighters who overwhelm her with clever strategies. But maybe to make it less one-sided, have her use her own techniques like the one she used to take out Cell. As a result, some of the fighters like Piccolo get taken out. She might even kill U16 Gohan in a fit of rage.
Maybe we can throw some of the U9 warriors into the mix. Maybe Tien tries to seal her with the Mafuba. It fails, maybe due to the sheer gap between Tien and Bra (it worked for Buu because Buu was clearly toying with Tien and holding back his power). Eventually, Majin Bra starts getting worn out. Maybe it's because she's inexperienced with the Super Saiyan 2 form, because Reality Ensues: her lack of experienced fighting with the transformation or being unable to control her energy output starts turning against her. Or maybe the frustration of being unable to beat those much weaker than her causes her to have a massive breakdown that inadvertently burns up her energy. But in the end she burns out of her Super Saiyan 2 form into normal Super Saiyan or base form. She goes into an angry rant, asking how even with all the power she is able to now control, was unable to beat people much weaker than her. Her frustration that even though she could finally control her Super Saiyan 2 form, she still can't win.
It's then at that moment Bra Briefs steps in, finally fed up with her counterpart's bullshit, and we have that Talk No Jutsu moment. I know a lot of people hated TNJ, but it's mainly because in Naruto it gets overdone. But at least in Naruto it feels earned because the heroes have to first take the villain down before getting it into their head. By beating them, it proves the weakness of their ideology, because their weakening conviction was what opened them up to defeat. The same thing here with Son Bra. U18 Bra points out that the reason she lost was because she was never in control. She was nothing more than Babidi's lackey. And so the scene plays out exactly the same, except for her final speech:
"I may not know what issues you have to turn into the screw-up that you are, but so what? All I see is an arrogant, self-centred monster who's using her power to bully those weaker than her. A monster who killed her own brother in cold blood, with a smile on her face! My mom told me about what my dad was like before I was even born. He was just like you: all he cared about was becoming the strongest, and he never gave a damn about the people around him, including my mom and brother. But he learned. And he grew. He got beaten down many times by those stronger than even him, but he became a better person from it. So if you want to be Number One in the Universe, then grow the hell up! Don't let your issues, no matter how unfair they seem to be in your head, get to you! If you can't, you're not even close to being Number One! Do you know why? It's not that you're weak... it's because you are a COWARD!"
And it's that moment Son Bra realises that is all that she is. A coward who is simply using her power to hide her own personal issues, to appear strong. Someone spineless who let her issues and others like Babidi who take advantage of said issues to lead her along. That breaks her and she collapses as she let the full weight of her crimes that she committed out of hiding her own personal issues come crashing down on her. The Majin seal still stays, but the damage is done.
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Post by thebritwriter on Nov 24, 2020 10:48:30 GMT
I voted started off good then went downhill.
I can see why this was done, the pace was becoming stale as mentioned, though while the Gast/Hatchiyack fight was ok (There were never really any stellar images to showcase Gast given his promise) the Bra vs cold/Ginyu had a predictable outcome once bra agreed to limit herself to base level and a uneeded extension of it with ginyu/bra vs vegito. The unintended consequence of the latter is that it's 'evil' bra part 1 (with part 2 coming later.)
(I have mentioned elsewhere in despite the extended ginyu/bra v vegito, that it did have a decent resolution and prefer they left ginyu there.)
I think the Majin Bra issue may had been more accepting if (apart from adding more on her own perspective which veers in making her a candidate for it) Bra didn't limit herself against Cold and found herself in the fight of her life, with the round briefly postponed (by background majin sabotage with intention to get the fighters go on a break so Majin can pry one of them) leaving Bra to dread about the fight resuming.
Sure ssj2 is an option but she finds it uncontrollable and yet there's this guy she has to resume fighting, who may even beat that. The self-proclaimed prodigy in danger of losing, or even dying. Both for the very first time in her life.
And then comes the Majin dealer, babadi saying 'Hey kid, I got something for ya, give you total control and everything, I swear you'll still be who you are' With bra thinking she can gamble it thinking she got Babdi played because how can someone like her so strong be end up being a puppet, it'll be an easy power boost, and you get the idea. Arrogance.
Remember kids, winners don't become Majin.
(Obviously not to that effect literally but you get the idea)
Looking back, given the 'where is ginyu' subplot it's a waste knowing he was there so he can play the proxy of evil bra, you can remove him and the story would be better. The Bra vs Cold fight started in March/April 2016, Resurrection F came out year before, that came under the 'Z' franchise not super, so why not add a Cold becoming golden. It would make Buu think 'Oh...maybe I shouldn't had done that, oh well!'
The lasting problems of the 'majin rebellion' stem from here, in that with no further purpose ginyu becomes a simple gimmick to wipe out the kais, and that bra is rebooted as 'evil' for the second time. Repeating the same trick in two successive arcs is repetitive.
The arc has been a long one, starting as early as chapter 55, developing from 58, 59, 61, 63, 66, 68, 70, 73 and 75.
At the minimum this has been building for nine chapters, it does have good fights but I was more of a fan of the build up from behind the shadows, manipulating from back of the stage, and when it came to fights it did characters who didn't have a chance to shine, try again. I was a fan of the smaller fights that didn't involve the mains, I assumed it be a fight/race to the controls of the arena itself and get the dragon balls from there. It did lose itself to the bigger spectacles though Piccolo vs the frost demons was a good fight, as well as Cell's manipulations.
On the subject of Cell, he already has a special on how he killed the Z fighters, is already smug and ambitious. Is bra becoming a gleeful killer needed when Cell is already one? Have him be the focus, his cover from the special is quite effective (more so then the chapter itself) seeing him pull off another coup would likely infuriate but we know it's not out of the blue.
I'll say Cell and Phispil were the best, I figured there may be a reluctant tag-team approach, also U19 are one of the better ideas from DBM a super advanced race that use tech to try and counter beings with powers that defy their logic. You could argue phispil could have played the normal thrown into an extraordinary situation, using tech and innovation with cell using majin as a bluff to achieve his own ends (getting rid of the stronger fighters)
It could have been balanced between the more power explosive fights cell is suited for the more close combat clinical strikes Phispil or other U19 could have played. The arc did have have options and has been ongoing for a long time to have those options develop.
It needed to anchor on who would resolve this because there were a LOT of characters, as well as someone benefiting from it.
The tech U19 have make them a more interesting roster then U9 who don't have anything going for them. (I rather try to forget yamcha thinking there's good in 18 and that conveniently she's not a majin but 17 is?)
As for worst, I'll say hand down for the kai's for being incompetent to the point I'm wondering if the supreme kai from super (who let frieza run amok to the point only 20 civilizations exist) is possibly more competent, at least in that regard that's recognized by their mortal ranking level. Kai's in DBM? What's their excuse for this?
Still I say a equally worse factor was how the fights were handled in the final stage where majin bra came out, the lack of team work to where it became one vs one was overdone and overplayed, and...how bra lost a limb but was still grinning and taking a senzu to regrow that arm.
Personally to me that killed the chapter, (not just the senzu was repeated from the cold fight) but the loss of arm without pain, even namekians themselves feel pain when tearing off their own arm when damaged (and they can regrow it naturally) I think that was the wrong choice to do.
Majin bra could work though if her motivation was built up more, and if we hadn't had a evil version of her prior.
I get where Salagir was coming from for Bra's excuse to be majin but we last see her going off to rest and then several hundred pages later is out majin, and is defeated by a counterpart she never spoke to (beside cover of a chapter) there isn't much weight to support the idea and it really needed that.
It's worth mentioning the majin revolt itself may become meaningless if everyone is wished back and nobody meaningful actually died, even if say bra was killed off as punishment, she would come back along with everyone else once the dust settles once the dragon balls are brought in, because every character that died in the heart of the rebellion has a chance to come back if the dragon balls wish for everyone, which probably include cell as he shown a heroic-ish virtue in trying to stop majin bra.
Because I think there will be a mass return, makes the arc close, to being considered 'it was all just a dream' unless there is a lasting consequence, then the over the top gore in the previous chapters were just an exercise in that and nothing more.
Edit: Just to note I made an error on C18 not realizing she died till re-reading, though admittingly this is because I wasn't really a fan of whenever Yamcha talked so didn't pay attention to parts he was in till researching XXI
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Post by Axalon on Nov 25, 2020 1:19:23 GMT
I've actually been working on a post that tries to explain literally every failure of this arc. Until then I will do a short list here:
Pros:
- Good artwork - Cell
Cons:
- Plot Induced Stupidity - Bra - Power Levels Are Bullshit - Sudden "endings" (I'll explain more some other time)
Best:
1. Cell 2. Piccolo 3. U18 Gohan 4. Phipsil 5. The Mini-Jrs
Worst:
1. Bra 2. Babadi 3. Fat Buu 4. Frieza/Cooler 5. Everyone who got teleported
Best:
1. Cell 2. Coldyu 3. Jeice 4. Sauza 5. King Piccolo
Worst:
1. Bra 2. Babadi 3. Android 17 4. Frieza/Cooler 5. Nappa
Best:
1. Cell 2. Piccolo 3. U18 Gohan 4. Phipsil 5. The Mini-Jrs
Worst:
1. Fat Buu 2. U16 Gohan 3. All 3 Videls 4. U18 Bra for saying "Passive" 5. Whoever the other Helior is since I can't even think of another character
More clear goals, less dumb fights, either Bra stomps everyone almost effortlessly or teamwork finds a way to beat her.
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Post by supergojita3 on Nov 25, 2020 4:19:18 GMT
Most of the poll is negative. I liked most of the arc. Now we can see where they from here. I'm liking vegettos pissed off look in asuras preview pages.
The problem with dbm compared to dbz or db is that dbz is a complete series, we know what happens and why. dbm is incomplete, and we don't know whether this will have a pay off or not, but even so I liked it. I'll respect the opinions of those who dismiss the arc and don't like it and so on, but much like the spirit bomb in dbz, it didn't actually have a "pay off" that mattered bigly until buu.
I don't mean weaken vegeta or annoy freeza for a bit, I mean kill a main antagonist outside of a movie. It really is the chekhovs gun of db. It was introduced in the arc where goku learned it, and it didn't really pay off until the grand finale. There were probably other ways to win, like gohan or even fusion, but it was the best way to win from a story narrative point, as earth defended itself instead of goku just winning with a rando power up or merger.
So, I'm looking forward to the next arc if only to see bra humbled or even killed (short term, brought back ala buu or whatever) by vegetto and maybe hangs out with u18 and learns a new life perspective from the main cast. Goku was supposed to be this redeeming factor according to goten to u19, so maybe we'll see this play out for later.
Majin bra was the "fall" arc for the character so maybe now we'll get a redemption arc. I personally would like this and see it play out organically.
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Post by Ashanark on Dec 5, 2020 20:51:09 GMT
I think it’s wasted potential. This was the time to fix many peoples' complaints about DBM or at least put some fears to rest, but it ended up confirming many of them.
Much of what I would say has already been covered by thebritwriter, another1bitesdadusto, and Axalon, so I'll see if I can contribute anything else of value.
The greatest singular issue is that Salagir doesn't plan as well as he should.
The Majin Rebellion is where this long-standing problem becomes most drastic. Salagir has no complete script for his story, and he's rarely even a chapter ahead of release. (This latest chapter wasn’t yet finished before Salagir released it.) Salagir is a concept guy: he has an idea, then decides he’ll develop it later, when he has to. Among other things, this is why U16 Bra had no formal introduction and no hints she was highly dysfunctional, why U19 wasn’t finalized until 2017 (and their introduction gives no indication of their motives), and why Kakarot changes from Nappa 2.0 to rapist to cannibal to immortal.
Looking through DBM I see that classic giveaway of the first draft: a smattering of scenes which sound cool, welded together, instead of a natural or logical progression. This often forces Salagir into situations where he needs a quick fix in order to get to the next scene. Alternatively, sometimes Salagir just doesn’t want to spend the time on a situation which it deserves: a comment from Chapter 44 of the Hanasia novelization is telling, where Salagir acknowledges a character’s death was anticlimactic but “we have to move on.” In his mind, Salagir probably thought both Ginyu and Gast vs. Raichi were C-tier subplots, which is why he dealt with both so quickly and unsatisfactorily. It’s things like this which gives DBM the weird distinction of being both frustratingly slow and agonizingly fast-paced.
There’s one other problem: Salagir loves surprises. Sometimes, a little too much. I’d rather take something predictable which makes sense in hindsight, then something surprising which is stupid in hindsight.
Like many first drafts, there are good ideas and some genuinely great moments in DBM, but at the end of the day, we’re still reading a first draft. This wasn't as big a deal before because DBM is a tournament arc, one of the simplest plot structures out there, but with the Majin Rebellion the flaws start showing up. A lot of things don't make sense; its flow, pacing, and tone is uneven; much of what happens, does so inexplicably; there is lots of motion, but not so much progress.
With all this in mind—lack of planning; concept first, details later; linking scenes together instead of characters making decisions; and wanting to surprise—that explains just about everything that went wrong with the MR.
Question: Why does Piccolo struggle against the Frost Demons, yet kills 17 in a few panels, especially when Salagir later confirmed 17 is stronger than the FDs? Answer: Well, because Salagir thought it’d look cool for Piccolo to do an SBC cage.
Q: Why does Videl, who struggled against 3rd form Cold, suddenly have the power to handily beat a Cell Jr? A: Well, because Salagir thought it’d look cool. Also, Asura likes drawing ladies with six-packs.
Q: Why does Ginyu switch off-screen with a random Frieza soldier we’ve never even seen before in order to survive North Kai? A: Because Salagir wanted Ginyu to win and had to think up a way to do that.
Q: Why does the mini Jr. float off of Gohan’s head for no reason right before Bra bisects him? A: Because then Bra couldn’t kill both of them in one slice.
Q: Why does Gohan abruptly go down the checklist killing all the remaining Majins after fighting Cell? A: Because Salagir wanted to move on to the next scene.
Q: Why does Bra abruptly go down the checklist killing all the remaining heroes after U16 Gohan dies? A: Because Salagir wanted to move on to the next scene.
Q: Why do the heroes fighting Majin Bra all act like complete morons, allowing Bra to kill basically all of them? (My personal favorite example: why do the Heliotes miss a shot against a stationary target with the element of surprise?) A: Because Salagir decided he wanted Bra to win, regardless of whether or not she should’ve.
Q: Why does Fat Kai just stand there uselessly for all seven chapters of the Rebellion? A: Because he was already there and Salagir didn’t know what to do with him.
Q: If Babidi really did Majinize Bra before the Rebellion began, why did he keep her in reserve the entire time, even though he makes such a blatant show of force at the start? A: Because the actual circumstances of Bra’s Majinization are unimportant to Salagir; all that matters is that Bra gets Majinized.
This isn’t an exhaustive list of all the Rebellion’s many, many moments of contrived or poorly-planned writing, but it’s hopefully a reflective sample.
It’s important to note Toriyama himself wasn’t a huge planner... yet even so, the only really stupid moment I can think of in his entire Dragon Ball manga run is Cell not dying to Goku’s Kamehameha. The man wasn’t a complex storyteller, but he definitely wasn’t a contrived one. Take a look at the comparison thread and it becomes clear he’s not rushing things, he’s not breaking continuity as much as we might think, and generally results happen according to things that have already been established, not things suddenly being pulled out of thin air—or conveniently forgotten.
To completely rewrite the Majin Rebellion is quite the task, and in some respects it’d require going back to the very beginning of DBM.
First the question needs to be asked: what’s the purpose of this arc? To give the side characters something to do? To have action outside the tournament context? I think Salagir would say “To give Bra character development.” In that case... well, I wouldn’t have a Majin Rebellion arc at all: I’d just have Bra’s character development happen during the fight with Cold and save us four years. Even something like “making Goten and U18 Bra realize they need to stop screwing around with their lives”, or “showing that heroes, working as a team, can overcome massive odds” is better than another spotlight for U16 Bra.
Knowing the purpose of the arc also helps ensure that it’s not filler: something which the Majin Arc basically is. In writing, when you don't know where you're going or what you're doing, it's very easily for where you go or what you do to not actually mean anything.
Second: who wins? How's it going to end? There are signs that Majin Bra was not in the cards at the early stages of the rebellion (among others, the Babidi-show-of-force question), and that Cell would've been the final boss. If you're going for Majin Bra, everything needs to lead up to that in hindsight. The question of who wins is also especially relevant to the Majin Bra fight. In my opinion, in most cases if the bad guy wins, it should be gotten over with quickly: this establishes the villain as a threat (they don’t have to struggle to win), and makes sure the heroes’ grief isn’t too prolonged. For some reason Salagir seems intensely fond of stories where we just watch the heroes get slaughtered (Cell special, Bojack special, final U8 special), but these kinds of things get pretty unbearable for readers. Why put the heroes through three chapters’ worth of agony if Bra just wins anyway?
Third: what are people’s objectives? What tools for winning does everyone have at their disposal? How do we account for these? I 100% believe the good guys could’ve pulled out a convincing victory against Bra, even with her power advantage and various abilities. Yet during the Majin Rebellion, if these things come up in a way that might interfere with the scenes Salagir has in mind, they’re flat-out ignored instead of Salagir working around them. Babidi’s goal makes no sense, and his strategy for winning is nonsensical. There’s no obvious way for the heroes to win besides “kill Babidi” and once Bra takes Babidi out of the equation (surprisingly, one of the few logical things anyone does in this arc, and a massive tension-killer), their only objective is to survive. With no possible hope for rescue, what follows is essentially a gratuitous gore-fest: we are watching Salagir indulge himself in the terror and desperation of the heroes as they slowly get slaughtered one by one.
Perhaps the sorest thing of all is that ultimately teamwork was worthless, on both sides of the rebellion: all the stranded contestants working together utterly failed to find the arena in time to rescue any of their friends, and all the people left behind utterly failed to defeat the rebellion. What a great arc, huh?
Again, rewriting the rebellion would take a whole thread to itself. But without retconning huge parts of DBM to make a few scenes work better (like the U18/U16 Bra conversation), here are some ideas: -- Have Babidi use the control tower (remember that evil Vargas who ended up doing nothing?) to send back all the contestants to their universes, then attempt to seize the Vargas ships to escape to other universes (secretly). This prevents the pointless filler scenes of the contestants trying to find the arena. It gives Babidi an objective, and something for the heroes to fight him over, therefore providing a more clear “win” condition and thus more tension.
-- Let the heroes in the arena be aware of the stranded contestants, or know how long it will take for them to return. This way, instead of “I guess we try to survive against Bra for as long as possible before she kills us,” it would be more like “We just need to fend her off for three minutes!” Again, this adds more tension while simultaneously making things less bleak for the heroes.
-- Eliminate senzu beans. Okay, we can give Bra regrowing her arm, but other than that they should’ve been left out; they are a reset button and thus create motion without progress. Having her slowly get worn down through the work and sacrifice of others would’ve been a great message that even “worthless” people can succeed if they’re willing to fight (and die) for others’ sake—a lesson Bra has not learned. Have Bra lose, for the first time in her life, when she is at her strongest and has sold her soul for power. That will teach her things which “passive” wouldn’t.
These are all things I came up with in a few minutes. Had Salagir put some more planning into this--gone through a few more drafts, not been so committed to one particular outcome, sort of thing--things would've gone better in the long run. Don't rush things; let things play out to their resolution; don't force characters to serve the needs of the plot. As it stands, this arc will always be wasted potential for me. Even if DBM’s writing makes the most glorious comeback in the history of anything ever, I will still think the Majin Rebellion was whiffed, and I wouldn’t be surprised if many fans from here on out will feel the same.
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Post by Andres on Dec 5, 2020 21:53:08 GMT
I'm gonnna take my time to reply to this thread the way it's worth, but I wanna address two comments here:
The tech U19 have make them a more interesting roster then U9 who don't have anything going for them. (I rather try to forget yamcha thinking there's good in 18 and that conveniently she's not a majin but 17 is?)
C18 is out of comission after XXI's fight. She is, for all purposes, currently "dead"
...how bra lost a limb but was still grinning and taking a senzu to regrow that arm.
Personally to me that killed the chapter, (not just the senzu was repeated from the cold fight) but the loss of arm without pain, even namekians themselves feel pain when tearing off their own arm when damaged (and they can regrow it naturally) I think that was the wrong choice to do.
I have always thought of it as a part of the Majin resilience. It is unfair to compare it to Namekian regeneration. Spopovich doesn't really flinch after Videl breaks his neck. Yeah, he stutters, but no screaming and no true show of pain, only shock.
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Post by thebritwriter on Dec 5, 2020 23:24:48 GMT
With C18 I realized that error later when doing another re-read but never got round to making the correction, which was sloppy of me all thing considering how many days Ihad to make that correction. As for the majin bra regeneration, I do stand by that argument, I would be splitting hairs in arguing the difference between reacting to a cut limb and a broken neck but Spopovich does have a reaction to his injury, a shock and a fall. He's down for 30-40 seconds of the video, and when he is getting up he isn't happy about it, exerting some effort in responding/undoing the injury. Even that kind of resilience is freakish compared to the other majin's (vegeta, dabura, pui pui and that one nobody ever cared about) who never displayed that trait of extreme resilience. In contrast Bra takes that freakish one-off to a point where an injury like a limb loss results in her being immediately indifferent about it. I don't think it was a good choice to have her do that.
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Post by supergojita3 on Dec 8, 2020 1:54:11 GMT
With C18 I realized that error later when doing another re-read but never got round to making the correction, which was sloppy of me all thing considering how many days Ihad to make that correction. As for the majin bra regeneration, I do stand by that argument, I would be splitting hairs in arguing the difference between reacting to a cut limb and a broken neck but Spopovich does have a reaction to his injury, a shock and a fall. He's down for 30-40 seconds of the video, and when he is getting up he isn't happy about it, exerting some effort in responding/undoing the injury. Even that kind of resilience is freakish compared to the other majin's (vegeta, dabura, pui pui and that one nobody ever cared about) who never displayed that trait of extreme resilience. In contrast Bra takes that freakish one-off to a point where an injury like a limb loss results in her being immediately indifferent about it. I don't think it was a good choice to have her do that. View AttachmentThat was the anime dragging things out to take up time. he was up quicker in the manga. Though being majinized had less resilience in the majin arc here compared to spopovitch. he is an outlier. not even majin vegeta was up as quickly after taking a beating by buu. As to ashanarks questions, many of those answers are just sarcastic responses. Like, grand kaioshin is shown doing nothing ever since he was introduced. He was always giving out commands to action, never taking action himself. He's basically a pacifist himself while insisting the other gods not be pacifists themselves. He's a hypocrite in that fashion which is the opposite of how he is in canon in super. as well as in the dbz anime, though he did stand back in the anime until the east kaioshin was down and thought to be dead or dying, lying in defeat when bibidi was talking amongst him and fat buu. The mini jr probably was told to stick with gohan by cell himself who was incorrectly foolish that plan would work. I mean theres a lot to unpack there but keeping in mind that dbm has some of these threads expanded upon in the novel, some of these questions will probably be answered in that set up. Though that doesn't excuse the lack of answers in the comic, some of them could be guessed upon in universe much like how things were left vague in the db manga itself with the anime expanding on them, such as why the genki dama failed to go off vs buu and why restoring gokus ki made it work this time despite not having more energy. The answer given in the anime that lacked in the manga was: he didn't throw it hard enough for buu to be overwhelmed by it, he caught it and was able to hold it back, pushing it with his own ki. Restoring his ki meant goku could push back harder and force buu to take it head on and with the right amount of force for him to lack the proper defense to push it back again. so it went off this time. Thats basically what the novel does. Its the expanded anime but in text form. (not that I like it mind you, but it is what it is) And like bra being over whelmed verbally by u18 bra, its probably going to be explained later on. I'm guessing it was more symbolic than anything literal. u18 bra represents the "human" and kind bra, while u16 bra represents the "saiyan" and cruelty. A bit of a stretch, but sometimes symbolism can be the explanation, and that might not even be what salagir has in mind.
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Post by Son Pan on Dec 15, 2020 5:45:35 GMT
Since it seems the the upcoming chapter is an aftermath of the rebellion, I will do like take this opportunity to ask you guys about your thoughts about the arc. Also if you could give me: 1- A short review about the arc (if you want to). 2- In your opinion: What are the pros & the cons? 3- In your opinion: what are: a- The top 5 best & worst characters of the arc overall. b- The top 5 best & worst characters of the Majin side. c- The top 5 best & worst characters of the "good guys" side. 4- And if it was up to you to change things, how the rebellion will play out? a- What will you add & what will you take out from the arc & why? b- Who will the war? The Majins or the good guys & why? I would loved to write my own thoughts, but right now I don't feel like writing a long rant. So I would like to hear yours instead. Edit: I would like to hear your thoughts especially! Axalon , iron leaf , Ashanark , Xeno Black . & especially especially you supergojita3 , since you're a fan of U16 Bra. This was a good arc with a disappointing ending for me. I had my fair of issues with this arc, but it had a lot of great moments to me that make this arc worth it. The biggest concern was how Majin Bra fight ended, but with small tweaks this could have been majorly improved and ended this on a strong note. I don't think the idea of the event or how things ended itself were bad. This was a great way to give characters who were on the sidelines focus. That was rewarding. Heliots were mostly written off by a lot of fans (myself included), but this arc really gave us a definitive version of them and showed how effective they are. Their weapons were strong enough to harm Majin Cell as well as undo Dabura's magic spit and kill him. U18 Goten finally got to do more than be comedic relief and even though he mostly got his ass kicked he kept fighting and showed he had guts. It is the same way why Krillin was so awesome back in the day despite being mostly overpowered. I had newfound respect for him when he took a hit with U13 Kakarot so they could beat him. Even when he was being strangled Goten wouldn't give up. Even the Supreme Kais had a good showing here. Even Babidi I felt got be an effective villain. His plan wasn't inherently a bad one. It had flaws, but they were flaws that were reasonable to make for the most part. He teleported all the participants he couldn't turn or thought he couldn't turn to another planet very far away to a planet with no oxygen. That showed foresight on his part and only failed because U4 Buu, could have brought them back at any time. Of course Cell picked up his slack by containing the Gohans. To Salagir's credit he did setup Babidi's magic couldn't teleport people inside their rooms, so U9 and U18 Goten being safe had reason. U18 Goten attacking the Cell Juniors is what freed U18 Gohan up and have the heroes a chance to fight back. That setup was good overall. Both Gohans proved to be very effective. U18 Gohan freed up U16 and let his counterpart deal with Cell while he went to stop Babidi to end everything. U16 Gohan and Cell fight wasn't give as much focus as I hoped what we got was pretty good. I loved how U16 Gohan sacrificed his hand to stop Special Beam Cannon then elbowed Cell. The slaughter fest of villains was good to me. It was a good throwback to what he did to the Cell Juniors. There were a lot of pros to this arc, but there were some cons as well. U18 Piccolo needing his new technique to kill off the Cold Brothers was weird and made no sense. U18 Piccolo was leading Freeza and Cooler by the nose when Ginyu got removed from the fight. Piccolo should have been able to easily kill them. Even if we go with Frost Demons being more durable than other races canon has always shown that if someone is stronger than Freeza or his family that they can be killed by a strong enough ki blast. Future Trunks showed us that was true. Salagir did later reveal Majin power up Cooler and Freeza got wasn't big enough to make them stronger than 17 and 18 in their prime, so Piccolo should have been way stronger than them. I also agree with Ashanark on Ginyu stealing a body off-screen for a surprise wasn't handled all that well and just opened the door to Ginyu could have taken anyone's body and lived that hasn't stopped since. It would have been better to shown Ginyu steal that body on screen and finish off the last Supreme Kai that way. This way when Ginyu was finally killed people would have accepted it. U9 could have benefited from this arc the same way U19 did. It was cool to see U9 Videl kill that Cell Junior, but I would have liked to have seen more coordination on their part or to have some of them go out and help the other characters. I don't really understand Salagir's reasoning for making Grand Supreme Kai less effective than his canon counterpart. I don't want to look for the post, but I remember when this arc was going on that Salagir posted that Grand Supreme Kai was the weakest Supreme Kai and not a good fighter in DBM. That baffles me. I suppose it could have been to deprive the heroes another SS3 level fighter, but even that didn't require Grand being made the weakest not being a good fighter at all. It makes us wonder how he was able to trigger Majin Buu absorption since DBM established Kid Buu had this a defense mechanism. If the goal was to stack things too much for the good guys we could have had Grand help U19 out against Cell. The choreography in the final battle with Majin Bra wasn't as good as it could have been. A big complaint this fight got was many felt the characters stood around and let one try something against Bra, so it felt like an idiot plot. We saw in the manga several characters try to team up against one character several times and see the one character dodge and avoid all those attacks. That could have been done here. The defeat of Bra could have been handled better. This arc isn't too hard to improve. Small changes are needed and it would vastly improve it I think for a lot of people. U18 Piccolo had used his new technique to kill Ginyu. It brings back how Special Beam's drilling effect and improves on it. U18 Piccolo exhausting himself to reveal this new technique to kill off an opponent stronger than him would have went over better with audiences and allowed Piccolo a big win under his belt. Grand Supreme Kai instead of being left out of the fight could have joined U19 fight Cell while U16 Gohan went to rescue U18 Videl and U18 Bra. It might have worked better because I think Cell and Grand could have communicated telepathically and Grand would have went along with Cell's plan. Unpopular opinion, but Majin Bra showed signs she was trying to resist the control a bit or was holding back because of her love for her brother. I know its cliche, but its cliches for a reason and would have made more sense for how the ending was meant to go. Majin Bra said she didn't want to be human I think it would have been better for the Majin possession to have brought actually issues she showed before, such as the reason she needs to be the best and her need for control. Majin Bra reveling in SS2 form was good and playing around with Gohan aka Vegetto's golden boy would been great. The senzu bean didn't need to be as overused because it made Majin Bra seem weaker than she actually was. I don't mind her eating one to restore her arm once, but that could have been it. Bra was so much stronger that the successfully attacks that landed on her probably wouldn't have brought her ki down enough for them to win. A reason for why Bra didn't kill everyone right away or at least Gohan and the others could have been because some lingering affection. Again I know its cliche, but I think it would have worked, especially if U16 Gohan put that to the test and challenged her to kill him. That could have been what shocked Majin Bra and made her kill him right away to prove a point. Unlike what we got the death should have impacted U16 Bra in a more visible way, perhaps made her more unhinged or question why she killed Gohan. Characters could have tried to play on that to beat Bra or throw her off her game only for Bra to continue to overcome and start killing them off until U18 Bra comes out to stop her from killing U18 Gohan. The take down speech could still happen and it could still impact U16 Bra, especially since we would have hints throughout the fight that she still cares deep down. Now it doesn't mean Bra has to fully break out of the control. There are a few ways this could have gone down. U18 Bra's words on how she is weak and killed her brother could finish U16 Bra's breakdown or U16 Bra could lashed out and tried to kill U18 Bra only for U18 Gohan to push her out of the way and take the hit for U18 Bra and it is what caused U16 Bra to breakdown, since U18 Gohan is too similar to her own brother and its too much for her. U16 Bra still wins, but the idea of her emotional problems being put at the center of the conflict would have worked and been setup better to make the conclusion feel more organic.
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