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Post by darrieloni on Jan 17, 2021 14:37:52 GMT
It's been hinted at many times that Vegeta is hiding something which he believes will allow him to defeat Goku, even with Super Saiyan 3. It can't be Super Saiyan 3 itself, as Vegeta dismissed the form as much too flawed. Instead, he has expressed interest in Gohan's ultimate state, and attempting to attain something like it on his own. What do you think this new power of his is? How does it work? How does it compare to Super Saiyan 3 and/or the Ultimate form? Leave your thoughts down below!
My take on itDBM is no stranger to taking things from non-canon sources. The movie villains being and original content both being the most obvious cases of this.
One could argue that they took Golden Oozaru from GT, although there were a few gag panels to argue against this notion.
In order to introduce my theory, I would like to elaborate on a concept that has appeared many times over the franchise, but was never given much focus: Transformation Channeling.
The oldest instance of this I could find can be dismissed by some as merely an artistic choice, but there are those who see it as an implication of a transformation's power being used without transforming; the Oozaru appearing behind Goku as he defeats King Piccolo
Following that, there are many people who believe Grade 4 SSJ is stronger than Grade 1, thanks to multiple anime guides and such using similar wording about Grade 3 and Grade 4 pushing Super Saiyan to its limits, as well as referring to it as something beyond normal Super Saiyan. This causes many fans to believe Grade 4 is as strong as Grade 3, if not stronger.
This concept seemingly showed up again in GT, and was retroactively used to justify an animation error during filler in Z. Supposedly, Goku has the ability to use the power of Super Saiyan without actually transforming into a Super Saiyan. This is referred to as Super Saiyan Power. The wiki page even claims it has appeared in the manga version of Super, though I personally don't buy it.
Speaking of Super, it has also used this concept!
In the anime version, Goku is stated to have absorbed Super Saiyan God, and is apparently able to use the form's power without transforming into it.
In the manga, Trunks has been able to somehow push Super Saiyan 2 to have a power boost similar to Super Saiyan 3. Maybe even higher, since Goku felt the need to transform further against it.
(Note: An alternative translation for Trunks' line in the second page is "I see.... Who knew that kind of transformation existed… But… It's not like I was completely satisfied with this form either…")
And if you're looking for an instance of Channeling which appears in both the manga and anime versions of Super, look no further than Broly's ability to use the Oozaru's power without actually transforming into a great ape!
There is actually one more instance of channeling that we've seen, but I have neglected to mention so far. Possibly the best and most perfect use of the ability, not only able to use the power of Super Saiyan, but also SSJ2 and SSJ3, all without transforming at all. In fact, it is so far above normal usage of channeling, that it does even more than that!
Gohan's Ultimate form!
Not only does it allow him to use all the power of Super Saiyan 3 without transforming, but also any power he would get from rage boosts without actually getting angry, and all of the power he would ever get from training... without training. It is the concept of channeling taken to its very pinnacle thanks to godly magic.
This means that even if Vegeta were to master channeling to the point where using Super Saiyan 3 levels of power in base, it would still only be a third of what Elder Kaioshin's ritual can do.
So, what is Vegeta's power? My theory (which I really haven't put much thought into, other than finding those images) is that he can channel the power of the Graded SSJ forms without turning into them.
Salagir's multiplier for SSJ2 is x10.
If we assume that Grade 3 has the same multiplier, but only for attack power, then we can probably assume that Grade 2 is a lower x5
Super Saiyan 3, as far as we know, is simply x4
Therefore, Vegeta being able to channel Grade 2's power would be superior in power to Super Saiyan 3.
Now, which order will he do it in? Will he channel Grade 2's power into normal SSJ, then stack SSJ2 on top of that? Or go SSJ2 and then channel that form's equivalent of Grade 2?
The order doesn't matter much, since the result will be the same, so you're free to stack them in any way you'd like.
If you'd like to see it as numbers, here they are. Do keep in mind that DBM Vegeta's base is slightly stronger than DBM Goku's, but I'll be having them as equals just to make it easier to follow.
(Note: I decided to put it as an image because spoilering stuff with multiple paragraphs is really difficult.) |
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 17, 2021 19:09:02 GMT
Salagir actually has SSJ3 as 10x SSJ2 (or 5000x Base). So with that in mind SSJ2 Vegeta G3 will be equal to SSJ3 Goku assuming their base power is equal. To your point, it is likely that this is how Vegeta manages to obtain a higher level of power than what SSJ2 obtained in DBM. Combined with the fact that DBM Vegeta is much stronger than Buu Saga Vegeta and even stronger than Majin Vegeta was. Some might say it's BS but from what you showed us in Dragon Ball lore that it actually isn't and entirely possible he has figured out how to do just that. It would also allow Vegeta a power up without a new transformation as well that isn't a huge stretch. In practice however it won't help him in the tournament against a guy like Cell who can keep up with Mystic Gohan and even drilled Bra's arm off. This wouldn't be enough for Vegeta to gain an edge against Cell unless it was as good as what Gohan got, which means we would get a Mystic Vegeta who is still weaker than Mystic Gohan since half-Saiyans have more potential.
I certainly like this theory for one.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jan 18, 2021 1:00:12 GMT
I think vegeta might try going assj2-ussj2 and back to basic ssj2 like what trunks did with ussj and ssj.
he could bulk up and down depending on what he needs, and seeign as assj had better speed than basic ssj, maybe stay in assj2 and only use ussj2 when he needs a bigger jump.
on that note, supposing the basic ssj can be buffed up, and maybe ssj2, what about ssj3? he could buff up ssj3 and squeeze out 1 big attack before losign all his ki. not that he would even use ssj3 as a hypothetical, assj3 would still have a speed and power advantage over normal ssj3. it wouldn't last long though...
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Post by Cataclysm on Jan 28, 2021 3:50:03 GMT
I think as Gohan can use all of his power in 'base', Vegeta can access all of his power (which is at least 'trained' SSJ3 level) in SSJ2.
Or he's found a divergent power up which is more an evolution of SSJ2 than a new transformation like SSJ3.
I like the ideas about applying ASSJ/USSJ to SSJ2. I could see that happening.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jan 28, 2021 8:35:20 GMT
I think as Gohan can use all of his power in 'base', Vegeta can access all of his power (which is at least 'trained' SSJ3 level) in SSJ2. Or he's found a divergent power up which is more an evolution of SSJ2 than a new transformation like SSJ3. I like the ideas about applying ASSJ/USSJ to SSJ2. I could see that happening. sp pretty much like what trunks did in db super? he has ssj3 power in ssj2. or a assj2 or ussj2 that has the ssj3 power? |
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 28, 2021 17:53:44 GMT
I think as Gohan can use all of his power in 'base', Vegeta can access all of his power (which is at least 'trained' SSJ3 level) in SSJ2. Or he's found a divergent power up which is more an evolution of SSJ2 than a new transformation like SSJ3. I like the ideas about applying ASSJ/USSJ to SSJ2. I could see that happening. sp pretty much like what trunks did in db super? he has ssj3 power in ssj2. or a assj2 or ussj2 that has the ssj3 power? Wouldn't ASSJ2 and USSJ2 just be a bulky SSJ2 that doesn't help your movement speed? Transformation channeling may allow USSJ's power or ASSJ's power to be used in a regular SSJ body and the same principle can apply to SSJ2 as well. |
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Post by lssj200000 on Jan 28, 2021 19:50:09 GMT
Grade 2 actually helps your speed unlike Grade 3. My guess is the bulk up isn’t extreme enough to affect your speed but iirc it does impact stamina
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 28, 2021 20:07:08 GMT
My question is would an ASS2 be a big enough power boost to match SS3? I mean ASS itself doesn’t really seem to hold a candle to SS2 in terms of power and speed boost. I cannot really imagine that a hypothetical ASS2 would be that big of boost in power and speed that it can match SS3. A potential USS2 might rival SS3 in raw power it probably still have the same speed decrease and possibly the same stamina issues as SS3 since it puts a lot of strain on the body.
I feel like U12 Trunks switching between SS1 and USS form would probably work well for SS3. What if Vegeta’s big secret is he reached SS3 and he is trying to lessen the stress it puts on his body by quickly switching in between SS2 and SS3. Only using SS3 power when he needs it and defaulting back to SS2 whenever he is resting state.
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Post by darrieloni on Jan 28, 2021 21:41:39 GMT
My question is would an ASS2 be a big enough power boost to match SS3? I mean ASS itself doesn’t really seem to hold a candle to SS2 in terms of power and speed boost. I cannot really imagine that a hypothetical ASS2 would be that big of boost in power and speed that it can match SS3. A potential USS2 might rival SS3 in raw power it probably still have the same speed decrease and possibly the same stamina issues as SS3 since it puts a lot of strain on the body. I feel like U12 Trunks switching between SS1 and USS form would probably work well for SS3. What if Vegeta’s big secret is he reached SS3 and he is trying to lessen the stress it puts on his body by quickly switching in between SS2 and SS3. Only using SS3 power when he needs it and defaulting back to SS2 whenever he is resting state. My assumption here would be that ASSJ is half as strong as SSJ2, and USSJ is as strong as SSJ2 but only in attack power. So ASSJ would be SSJ x5, and ASSJ2 would be SSJ2 x5. (Since Salagir uses a x10 boost for SSJ2 and SSJ3.) As for USSJ's speed loss, that was because of the big bulging muscles. In the case of transformation channeling, you get a form's power without transforming into it, so there would be no huge muscles to decrease speed at all. While it would definitely be a huge strain on the body, SSJ3 in DBM appears to be less of a strain and more of a time limit. When the two Gotenkses ran out of SSJ3 during their match, they didn't look tired at all. They looked surprised so they probably didn't feel tired either. So while a hypothetical USSJ2 would be strainful, you'd be able to hold it for as long as you can endure. Whereas endurance does nothing to lengthen how long you can stay in SSJ3. |
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Post by supergojita3 on Jan 29, 2021 5:02:06 GMT
My question is would an ASS2 be a big enough power boost to match SS3? I mean ASS itself doesn’t really seem to hold a candle to SS2 in terms of power and speed boost. I cannot really imagine that a hypothetical ASS2 would be that big of boost in power and speed that it can match SS3. A potential USS2 might rival SS3 in raw power it probably still have the same speed decrease and possibly the same stamina issues as SS3 since it puts a lot of strain on the body. I feel like U12 Trunks switching between SS1 and USS form would probably work well for SS3. What if Vegeta’s big secret is he reached SS3 and he is trying to lessen the stress it puts on his body by quickly switching in between SS2 and SS3. Only using SS3 power when he needs it and defaulting back to SS2 whenever he is resting state. whats funny about that is vegeta did that with ssjb and ssjg in dbs. and I think they can drop in and out of forms to lower ones in the novel. vegeta drops to ssj1 when goku refuses to use ssj3. drewsaga>assj2 and ussj2 I think assj2 would stack the bulk multiplier on top of ssj2. its a common transformation, the bulk up thing according to cell, which it is. so basically freeza did the bulk up thing when he went beyond 70% power, so maybe its a 30% power up for assj and the ussj thing is well beyond that. The anime has a form between assj and ussj and cell is like "come on. show me all you got" and trunks is like "lol. ok" and goes to ussj when his mid form assj1.5 does ok against him. thats filler and doesn't count, but its a cool scene. so what is the speed loss on ussj? slower than ssj, but maybe faster than base? and is it just combat speed or is flight speed also decreased? what I mean is if he flys in a straight line and isn't fighting, is he slower too and by how much? and I doubt ussj is as strong as ssj2. the "fpssj" thing is not necesarily a power up in dbm, so much as its a state of mind where goku and gohan can basically fight as ssj without the added stress and rage of being ssj. any daizenshuu stuff will not apply in dbm, so its likely they just trained themselves to be stronger by sparring as opposed to training the form of assj and ussj. I'm thinking this is the case for dbm. ussj is a good power up, and I'd use it in a pinch. imagine going ussj because ssj2 is out of reach for you, but you can teleport like goku. go ussj and warp kamehameha the opponent. sure you're tired, but you did get a good attack in and unlike cell, most people can't regenerate. |
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Post by drewsaga on Jan 29, 2021 19:23:05 GMT
My question is would an ASS2 be a big enough power boost to match SS3? I mean ASS itself doesn’t really seem to hold a candle to SS2 in terms of power and speed boost. I cannot really imagine that a hypothetical ASS2 would be that big of boost in power and speed that it can match SS3. A potential USS2 might rival SS3 in raw power it probably still have the same speed decrease and possibly the same stamina issues as SS3 since it puts a lot of strain on the body. I feel like U12 Trunks switching between SS1 and USS form would probably work well for SS3. What if Vegeta’s big secret is he reached SS3 and he is trying to lessen the stress it puts on his body by quickly switching in between SS2 and SS3. Only using SS3 power when he needs it and defaulting back to SS2 whenever he is resting state. whats funny about that is vegeta did that with ssjb and ssjg in dbs. and I think they can drop in and out of forms to lower ones in the novel. vegeta drops to ssj1 when goku refuses to use ssj3. drewsaga >assj2 and ussj2 I think assj2 would stack the bulk multiplier on top of ssj2. its a common transformation, the bulk up thing according to cell, which it is. so basically freeza did the bulk up thing when he went beyond 70% power, so maybe its a 30% power up for assj and the ussj thing is well beyond that. The anime has a form between assj and ussj and cell is like "come on. show me all you got" and trunks is like "lol. ok" and goes to ussj when his mid form assj1.5 does ok against him. thats filler and doesn't count, but its a cool scene. so what is the speed loss on ussj? slower than ssj, but maybe faster than base? and is it just combat speed or is flight speed also decreased? what I mean is if he flys in a straight line and isn't fighting, is he slower too and by how much? and I doubt ussj is as strong as ssj2. the "fpssj" thing is not necesarily a power up in dbm, so much as its a state of mind where goku and gohan can basically fight as ssj without the added stress and rage of being ssj. any daizenshuu stuff will not apply in dbm, so its likely they just trained themselves to be stronger by sparring as opposed to training the form of assj and ussj. I'm thinking this is the case for dbm. ussj is a good power up, and I'd use it in a pinch. imagine going ussj because ssj2 is out of reach for you, but you can teleport like goku. go ussj and warp kamehameha the opponent. sure you're tired, but you did get a good attack in and unlike cell, most people can't regenerate. Good point, USSJ is weaker than SSJ2 and one could argue that Goku and Gohan's FPSSJ is also transformation channeling where they have the power of USSJ or even greater with just regular SSJ but it still would be weaksauce compared to SSJ2 anyways.
So a hypothetical USSJ2 Vegeta would still fall short against SSJ3 Goku even if Vegeta channeled that power into his regular SSJ2 form (meaning it costs less stamina and doesn't sacrifice speed, Vegeta himself said he has speed and power at the same time during his fight with Trunks in DBM).
U12 Trunks pretty much used USSJ only when needed in the tournament against U18 Vegeta. I could be wrong, maybe Goku and Gohan were doing something else besides channeling USSJ, maybe they channeled only ASSJ or maybe they didn't do any of that and if they did maybe they would have been able to take on Perfect Cell without SSJ2 if they did.
As for speed loss, pretty sure USSJ's speed is still far higher than base form.
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Post by 1989Bergling on Feb 8, 2021 18:02:51 GMT
What? I'm really curious about where you guys got the idea that the Salagir version of SSJ2 is 10 times more than SSJ1, I remember that this idea is a random answer he gave to his readers, not to be taken seriously, his real idea is that in DBM, each stage of SSJ transformation does not have any detailed numerical increase, which means we just need to know that the difference between each level is huge. The strongest SSJ1 can never beat the weakest SSJ2, SSJ2 and SSJ3 is the same reason, fusion Saiyans do not need to follow this rule. But if you have to count X50X10X10 these things, then Vegetto need to use SSJ2 when dealing with Ginyu Bra, you know the base strength of these two people is a whole level of difference. If SSJ2 is 10 times more than SSJ1, then Vegetto only needs to turn into SSJ1 to deal with Ginyu is more than enough.
And then add if you have to follow the X50X10X10 is the increase in each stage of their promotion, Uub through Kaiouken can reach the level of SSJ3 and then deal with Fat Buu, that he is at this moment Kaiouken increase a whole 5000 times have.
If you say that the novel mentioned Vegetto fully turn into SSJ3 after mentioning a full 10 times stronger than SSJ2, this does not mean that it must be X10, do not forget that the narrator mentioned that his energy continues to improve.
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Post by supergojita3 on Feb 9, 2021 6:24:04 GMT
What? I'm really curious about where you guys got the idea that the Salagir version of SSJ2 is 10 times more than SSJ1, I remember that this idea is a random answer he gave to his readers, not to be taken seriously, his real idea is that in DBM, each stage of SSJ transformation does not have any detailed numerical increase, which means we just need to know that the difference between each level is huge. The strongest SSJ1 can never beat the weakest SSJ2, SSJ2 and SSJ3 is the same reason, fusion Saiyans do not need to follow this rule. But if you have to count X50X10X10 these things, then Vegetto need to use SSJ2 when dealing with Ginyu Bra, you know the base strength of these two people is a whole level of difference. If SSJ2 is 10 times more than SSJ1, then Vegetto only needs to turn into SSJ1 to deal with Ginyu is more than enough. And then add if you have to follow the X50X10X10 is the increase in each stage of their promotion, Uub through Kaiouken can reach the level of SSJ3 and then deal with Fat Buu, that he is at this moment Kaiouken increase a whole 5000 times have. If you say that the novel mentioned Vegetto fully turn into SSJ3 after mentioning a full 10 times stronger than SSJ2, this does not mean that it must be X10, do not forget that the narrator mentioned that his energy continues to improve. How strong is uubs base? if he's like ssj2 level, then a 10x increase would put him on salagirs ssj3 level. he was stronger than fat buu, but buus stamina was going to win if he didn't have magic and stuff. |
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Post by 1989Bergling on Feb 9, 2021 7:37:55 GMT
if he's like ssj2 level, then a 10x increase would put him on salagirs ssj3 level. he was stronger than fat buu, but buus stamina was going to win if he didn't have magic and stuff. No, you can read the novel chapter 1, you can learn that his base strength is definitely not SSJ2 level, he is slowly upgraded to SSJ2 level by using Kaiouken |
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Post by 1989Bergling on Feb 9, 2021 14:42:54 GMT
Sorry, the strength of the 2 at the time should be two notches different, Salagir has clearly stated that Base Vegetto is stronger than Mystic Gohan.And Son Bra in the base form can not be stronger than the Super Perfect Cell are difficult to say.
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Post by supergojita3 on Feb 9, 2021 15:21:19 GMT
if he's like ssj2 level, then a 10x increase would put him on salagirs ssj3 level. he was stronger than fat buu, but buus stamina was going to win if he didn't have magic and stuff. No, you can read the novel chapter 1, you can learn that his base strength is definitely not SSJ2 level, he is slowly upgraded to SSJ2 level by using Kaiouken The novel? is it the same in french as in english? there was a person writing the english version who changed stuff and made kakarot not immortal until it was fixed. I don't trust the novel for that reason. that wasn't the only inconsistency and some stuff contradicts the comic. in any case, I have come to realize fat buu might not be ssj3 level after all, but a high ssj2 level. majin vegeta was a high ssj2 level and dominated fat buu for a short while until he powered up through rage. so all majin buu needed was to be 25% stronger than him to dominate vegeta. ssj3 goku toyed with buu, and you don't need to be ssj3 level to be toyed with by another sj3. You just need to be weaker by 5% or more. WE also don't know if buus rage boosts stay, or go away after a bit like gohans. I'd say fat buu is a high tier ssj2 level foe and can beat any other normal ssj2. seeign as uub is maybe high tier ssj1 level, a maxed out kaioken should put him above a normal ssj2, but briefly due to kaiokens draining effect. |
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Post by 1989Bergling on Feb 9, 2021 15:47:29 GMT
Yeah, I've heard that the English version has a lot of translation errors, but I'm looking at the French version, Some parts are different from what is in the manga, but the DBM team believes that this is a supplement to the manga, it shows what is not in the manga, which makes the story more complete, part of the padding in the manga is also not, for example, it is mentioned in the novel that U18 Vegeta can match the energy of U13 SSJ3Vegeta by SSJ2 form, and it is also preliminaries in the U4 special novel Goku's SSJ3 has not been fully mastered, if once fully mastered, will reach another higher level, of course, will not be much stronger than the ultimate Gohan  |
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Post by 1989Bergling on Feb 10, 2021 18:11:21 GMT
No, you can read the novel chapter 1, you can learn that his base strength is definitely not SSJ2 level, he is slowly upgraded to SSJ2 level by using Kaiouken The novel? is it the same in french as in english? there was a person writing the english version who changed stuff and made kakarot not immortal until it was fixed. I don't trust the novel for that reason. that wasn't the only inconsistency and some stuff contradicts the comic. in any case, I have come to realize fat buu might not be ssj3 level after all, but a high ssj2 level. majin vegeta was a high ssj2 level and dominated fat buu for a short while until he powered up through rage. so all majin buu needed was to be 25% stronger than him to dominate vegeta. ssj3 goku toyed with buu, and you don't need to be ssj3 level to be toyed with by another sj3. You just need to be weaker by 5% or more. WE also don't know if buus rage boosts stay, or go away after a bit like gohans. I'd say fat buu is a high tier ssj2 level foe and can beat any other normal ssj2. seeign as uub is maybe high tier ssj1 level, a maxed out kaioken should put him above a normal ssj2, but briefly due to kaiokens draining effect. But this is still too exaggerated, you have to know DB Canon Goku against Frieza used x20 kaiouken body has begun to collapse no longer use, and DBM, if you take a few times to describe the gap, U9 Videl and Uub used Kaiouken increase of at least 100 times, I remember when someone asked SalagirU9Videl against Cell Jr with Kaiouken increase is how much, but he did not elaborate, only vaguely said the point, which can be seen that he hates to use numbers to calculate who who powerful, SSJ2 than SSJ1 how many times stronger is also the same. |
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Post by supergojita3 on Feb 10, 2021 19:39:31 GMT
The novel? is it the same in french as in english? there was a person writing the english version who changed stuff and made kakarot not immortal until it was fixed. I don't trust the novel for that reason. that wasn't the only inconsistency and some stuff contradicts the comic. in any case, I have come to realize fat buu might not be ssj3 level after all, but a high ssj2 level. majin vegeta was a high ssj2 level and dominated fat buu for a short while until he powered up through rage. so all majin buu needed was to be 25% stronger than him to dominate vegeta. ssj3 goku toyed with buu, and you don't need to be ssj3 level to be toyed with by another sj3. You just need to be weaker by 5% or more. WE also don't know if buus rage boosts stay, or go away after a bit like gohans. I'd say fat buu is a high tier ssj2 level foe and can beat any other normal ssj2. seeign as uub is maybe high tier ssj1 level, a maxed out kaioken should put him above a normal ssj2, but briefly due to kaiokens draining effect. But this is still too exaggerated, you have to know DB Canon Goku against Frieza used x20 kaiouken body has begun to collapse no longer use, and DBM, if you take a few times to describe the gap, U9 Videl and Uub used Kaiouken increase of at least 100 times, I remember when someone asked SalagirU9Videl against Cell Jr with Kaiouken increase is how much, but he did not elaborate, only vaguely said the point, which can be seen that he hates to use numbers to calculate who who powerful, SSJ2 than SSJ1 how many times stronger is also the same. WE don't know the kaioken level uubs max is. or videls for that matter. they use vague figures like "max kaioken" or "kaioken next level" and gokus mastery of kaioken allowed him to surpass his limits to the point x3 no longer made him break down. x20 just simply exhausted him by the freeza saga. in any case, fat buu is probably a high tier ssj2 level and not quite ssj3 level. buu saga goku is probably the weakest ssj3 level guy and toyed with fat buu, and we don't really know fat buus true power. I could see uub being a fpssj level and getting to ssj2 level through kaioken and only having a good mastery of up to level 10 before showing fatigue, and his inability to out muscle buu is simply due to hax regeneration. |
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Post by 1989Bergling on Feb 10, 2021 20:00:09 GMT
But this is still too exaggerated, you have to know DB Canon Goku against Frieza used x20 kaiouken body has begun to collapse no longer use, and DBM, if you take a few times to describe the gap, U9 Videl and Uub used Kaiouken increase of at least 100 times, I remember when someone asked SalagirU9Videl against Cell Jr with Kaiouken increase is how much, but he did not elaborate, only vaguely said the point, which can be seen that he hates to use numbers to calculate who who powerful, SSJ2 than SSJ1 how many times stronger is also the same. WE don't know the kaioken level uubs max is. or videls for that matter. they use vague figures like "max kaioken" or "kaioken next level" and gokus mastery of kaioken allowed him to surpass his limits to the point x3 no longer made him break down. x20 just simply exhausted him by the freeza saga. in any case, fat buu is probably a high tier ssj2 level and not quite ssj3 level. buu saga goku is probably the weakest ssj3 level guy and toyed with fat buu, and we don't really know fat buus true power. I could see uub being a fpssj level and getting to ssj2 level through kaioken and only having a good mastery of up to level 10 before showing fatigue, and his inability to out muscle buu is simply due to hax regeneration. According to Salagir logic, the strongest SSJ2 can not beat SSJ3, the lower level will never be able to tangle with the higher level for so long, so Fat Buu and SSJ3 Goku are within the same level. Even without knowing how much of a gap they have. But not so bad as a whole level of difference. That is, SSJ2 how to train, how to accumulate combat experience, but his room for improvement will have a ceiling, which will lead to SSJ2 in a one-on-one situation will lose to the weakest SSJ3, no matter what. |
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