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Post by babagareeb on Jan 20, 2021 6:59:55 GMT
I find it very disturbing how slutty he draws Bra who is only 16 years old.
Its quite disturbing that a middle aged man draws a teenager so sexually and obviously considers her his waifu.
He couldve made her older but instead he choose to sexualize a child which is creepy.
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Post by cloot on Jan 20, 2021 8:26:46 GMT
Akira Toriyama creator or Dragon Ball drew 16 year old Bulma flashing Master Roshi. He also drew kid Goku completely naked.
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Post by ouv on Jan 20, 2021 11:35:40 GMT
I find it very disturbing how slutty he draws Bra who is only 16 years old. Its quite disturbing that a middle aged man draws a teenager so sexually and obviously considers her his waifu. He couldve made her older but instead he choose to sexualize a child which is creepy. Salagir never drew Bra. Asura draws Bra. Toriyama also had Goku seriously organizing Bulma giving Old Kai sexual favors without asking her. He would have done it with his own wife, but Chichi's body was not firm enough. He also made Kid Goku touch Bulma's and some Grandma's genitalia. And probably some men's too IIRC. Grandma liked it, by the way. I'm pretty sure Ooloon used his powers to kidnap some underage girl with the intent of doing some very shady stuff to them. Kame Senin watched some Fitness on TV. But we all can guess from the turtle's reaction that it is implied that he did more than just watch, right ? Eminem kills people in his songs. Stephen kings kills people in his books. George Lucas had children Padawans slaughtered, and rewarded the murderer with eternal bliss ! He even put Leia in a metal bikini and kick-started a whole generation's puberty with it ! How did he dare ?!!! Let's not even mention Hentais... Movies and series full of sex, violence and death are made every day. What does that say about their creators ? I drew a planetary genocide in a U13 special chapter ! What does that say about me ?! Mangas are not real life. In the end, those are just lines on paper. The characters do not exist and nobody gets hurt.  |
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Post by cloot on Jan 20, 2021 20:35:41 GMT
Well said Ouv
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 20, 2021 21:57:28 GMT
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Post by dbmaccount on Jan 21, 2021 2:28:08 GMT
Toriyama also wrote characters getting raped as a joke but guess people still are fans, so...
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Post by aisuyu9 on Jan 21, 2021 23:22:10 GMT
How exactly is Bra drawn slutty? Asura did draw this a while ago, but it was more fan service than anything.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 23, 2021 9:46:41 GMT
Toriyama also wrote characters getting raped as a joke but guess people still are fans, so... What? When did this happen? |
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Post by obi1wajz on Jan 25, 2021 7:17:14 GMT
Toriyama also wrote characters getting raped as a joke but guess people still are fans, so... What? When did this happen?  He did it here. |
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Post by lssj200000 on Jan 25, 2021 11:00:28 GMT
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 25, 2021 12:16:15 GMT
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Post by Son Pan on Jan 25, 2021 23:04:50 GMT
After that latest post on here at least we can say Salagir has never drawn a woman get raped and played for laughs.
Seriously, I think it is up to the person and how they deal with fan service. I understand why some people do not like fan service and why some would like it. It can be used poorly and turn people off a story. I can see it being a treat for fans for people who think characters are attractive or not. Largely I think it is harmless. I mean it’s like a guilty pleasure. As long as it doesn’t harm real people what harm is it? Anime and manga have had teenage fan service for both male and female characters all the time. We saw an underage Bulma topless in the manga and she had a lot of fan service devoted to her in both manga and anime prior to the Z era. I don’t think that reflects Toriyama’s taste in women IMO. I don’t see the problem in it.
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Post by Ashanark on Jan 26, 2021 10:02:02 GMT
Remember: Bra is not a real person. Her figure, outfit, and which parts of her that we readers see at any given moment, is entirely up to Salagir’s control. Is it creepy for me to look at a 16-year-old girl’s butt? Is it creepy for me to draw a 16-year old girl’s butt? How about getting someone to draw a 16-year old girl’s butt for me? Different people will have different answers. Personally I don’t like fanservice precisely because I don’t like the idea of looking at somebody’s butt in general, or somebody pointing out body parts of another person I should enjoy looking at. Even disregarding the real-life implications, I also don’t like fanservice because of its effect on stories. According to legend, when making the 2013 Tomb Raider, the developers kept reducing Lara’s breast size until male viewers, given a picture of her from the waist-up, looked at her eyes first. They consciously wanted players to see her as a person, not as a sex symbol. The principle is simple: if you’re writing some casual story, then go ahead; have fanservice. But if you want people to take what you’re writing seriously, fanservice may hinder you there. The fanservice around Bra is both a cause and symptom of the fact she’s just a poorly-conceived character in general. I see no evidence she began existence in Salagir’s mind as anything more than “hot female Super Saiyan”. With Bra’s first appearance, I don’t see “fighter” or “martial artist”, “control issues” or “abused”; I see “By the way, I look good in this sports bra and yoga shorts, don’t you think?” The very first thing Salagir established about Bra—long before she even got a speaking part—was that she was eye-candy. That indicates Salagir initially saw Bra as mainly fanservice and planned little else beyond that, which is why her “development” has been so haphazard. I’m disappointed in Salagir for thinking that shallow, especially after criticizing others for it. The problem worsened when Salagir wanted Bra to become more than fanservice... without actually getting rid of the fanservice aspect of her character. He wants to tell something meaningful with her, but it’s hard to take Bra seriously when hardly a scene goes by without Asura giving us a butt-shot, or a tummy-shot, or a cleavage-shot. When Bra hunts for Cell's nucleus with her butt to the camera, am I supposed to feel worried or aroused? When Bra is in tears and framed with breasts in-panel, am I supposed to feel pity or titillation? Again: Salagir has complete control over what we see. It can’t be accidental, so either Salagir enjoys seeing Bra that way or wants me to enjoy seeing her that way, and both feel kinda creepy to me. If Bra had no fanservice potential, all there would be to her is her story—just like how all there is to Goku, Gast, Vegito, and Buu is their stories. If the author himself isn’t invested enough in his character’s story to tell it without fanservice, then why should I be invested in her story? I'm not surprised at all people doubt Salagir's intentions with Bra. Now, if we want to get into the weird and creepy, we can talk about Ancient Hanasia. Whether it's her forcing herself on a male Saiyan while Tuffles watched (kinky, huh?), or Salagir contriving not one but two situations where she fought buck naked with Asura lovingly drawing all the jiggle physics and Super Saiyan pubic hair you could ever hope for, I can't help but question Salagir's motives there. I find it sad that, instead of interacting in the pages and pages of sincere discussion by earnest commenters about actual interesting topics, Ouv’s first and only post in almost a year was responding to a presumably troll thread made by a troll member who got banned very quickly. C’est la vie. |
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Post by Solus on Jan 26, 2021 20:59:56 GMT
Remember: Bra is not a real person. Her figure, outfit, and which parts of her that we readers see at any given moment, is entirely up to Salagir’s control. Is it creepy for me to look at a 16-year-old girl’s butt? Is it creepy for me to draw a 16-year old girl’s butt? How about getting someone to draw a 16-year old girl’s butt for me? Different people will have different answers. Personally I don’t like fanservice precisely because I don’t like the idea of looking at somebody’s butt in general, or somebody pointing out body parts of another person I should enjoy looking at. Even disregarding the real-life implications, I also don’t like fanservice because of its effect on stories. According to legend, when making the 2013 Tomb Raider, the developers kept reducing Lara’s breast size until male viewers, given a picture of her from the waist-up, looked at her eyes first. They consciously wanted players to see her as a person, not as a sex symbol. The principle is simple: if you’re writing some casual story, then go ahead; have fanservice. But if you want people to take what you’re writing seriously, fanservice may hinder you there. The fanservice around Bra is both a cause and symptom of the fact she’s just a poorly-conceived character in general. I see no evidence she began existence in Salagir’s mind as anything more than “hot female Super Saiyan”. With Bra’s first appearance, I don’t see “fighter” or “martial artist”, “control issues” or “abused”; I see “By the way, I look good in this sports bra and yoga shorts, don’t you think?” The very first thing Salagir established about Bra—long before she even got a speaking part—was that she was eye-candy. That indicates Salagir initially saw Bra as mainly fanservice and planned little else beyond that, which is why her “development” has been so haphazard. I’m disappointed in Salagir for thinking that shallow, especially after criticizing others for it. The problem worsened when Salagir wanted Bra to become more than fanservice... without actually getting rid of the fanservice aspect of her character. He wants to tell something meaningful with her, but it’s hard to take Bra seriously when hardly a scene goes by without Asura giving us a butt-shot, or a tummy-shot, or a cleavage-shot. When Bra hunts for Cell's nucleus with her butt to the camera, am I supposed to feel worried or aroused? When Bra is in tears and framed with breasts in-panel, am I supposed to feel pity or titillation? Again: Salagir has complete control over what we see. It can’t be accidental, so either Salagir enjoys seeing Bra that way or wants me to enjoy seeing her that way, and both feel kinda creepy to me. If Bra had no fanservice potential, all there would be to her is her story—just like how all there is to Goku, Gast, Vegito, and Buu is their stories. If the author himself isn’t invested enough in his character’s story to tell it without fanservice, then why should I be invested in her story? I'm not surprised at all people doubt Salagir's intentions with Bra. Now, if we want to get into the weird and creepy, we can talk about Ancient Hanasia. Whether it's her forcing herself on a male Saiyan while Tuffles watched (kinky, huh?), or Salagir contriving not one but two situations where she fought buck naked with Asura lovingly drawing all the jiggle physics and Super Saiyan pubic hair you could ever hope for, I can't help but question Salagir's motives there. I find it sad that, instead of interacting in the pages and pages of sincere discussion by earnest commenters about actual interesting topics, Ouv’s first and only post in almost a year was responding to a presumably troll thread made by a troll member who got banned very quickly. C’est la vie. I don't agree, that fanservice is a hindrance for a story worth investing in it. While I grew out of the age, when I was susceptible for fanservice in mangas, I don't see, how that could ever distract me from a character's story or development. So here is my honest question: Do you think, that fanservice can deceive somebody into liking a character that is otherwise lame? Because I don't think so. Seeing a so called eye-candy, that is otherwise shitty written and annoying, will make me think: "Oh well, this one again. At least she looks beautiful, but this is not enough for me to tolerate her." Do you think, other readers will react differently? So while fanservice doesn't help me to like a character, it also doesn't make me dislike a character. Have you ever read Fairy-Tale? Not to say, that it has a great story, because it's the epitome of "nakama power", but allmost all of the female characters are giving huge fan service on a regular base and I still enjoy there individual character arcs. I'd say, it just depends on how you yourself react to nakedness and how you distinguish nakedness from sexual arousal. If you are a person, who calls girls sluts because they wear belly free tops, then you might be annoyed by the portrayal of cleavage or general "unnecessary skin" in mangas. But for me it is normal to see women in short trousers and belly free, so why would I care. It's not that I am not aware that fanservice is meant to trigger sexual arousal in people. And there is a line between fanservice and real sexual content. The question is only where to draw the line. And this is something a society has to decide as a whole, but also everyone for themselves. And Fairy Tail really explores the limits of fanservice with the typical "women's bath house scene" that can't be missing in any arc, which really serves no purpose other than being openly fanservice. But I don't mind that. It doesn't interest me anymore, but if I were still 16 (or maybe 21) I'd fap to that and then go on with the story. That doesn't degrade the women in the story for me and my emotional bonds with them would not weaken. Now I just fly over it without thinking anything of it, but I don't get annoyed.
Now back to DBM. Portraying Bra as eye-candy is not wrong by any means, at least not in my book. The question is not: DO you get aroused by seeing her cleavage in a shot where she cries? DO you get aroused in the shot where she searches for the nucleus? Because it would just be strange to portray Bra different. 
To not show her cleavage in the third panel would require a different angle, just like the one in the last panel. Sure, there could have been ways to avoid this, but why should it be avoided? I don't see any sexualization in this. And if you do, that is your fault. Bra's clothes being torn apart is only natural for a fight that intense. And that the top was not completely destroyed is purely out of consideration. There is absolutely no reason at all for it not to happen other than "Let's keep this kids friendly" (apparently US media isn't concerned to show blood to children but complety flips out when there is a nipple showing and this also swaps to Europe via said media). So it is kind of a conservative approach to it. Considering how small her boobs are, they shouldn't be a hindrance in a fight, so following Goku's example, she should have ripped that top off of her body as soon as it had the slightest rip. The fact that she didn't do that only shows, that the creator team does in fact try to avoid to make this pornographic.
With Hanasia however, it's completely different. She had no armour or clothes that could withstand her battles and also she has no shame in being naked. Why would she? Fighting naked only shows the archaic nature of the ancient saiyans and portraying her any different would be unrealistic. Hanasia fucking that one male in front of the Tsufurujins ... well, does your dog care, if you watch him taking a shit or fucking another dog? Certainly not. Ancient saiyans were animals, so why would they care? But was it necessary to draw her that way? Maybe not. Or definitely not. But does it harm anyone? I really like the art aspect in this pictures. (On a side note, I really don't like women with pubic hair, but portraying an ancient saiyan, that shaves her pubes would need a lot of explanation, that doesn't make sense, so for the sake of "realism" that's totally fine - as fine as her being naked in the first place).
And one last point, I'd like to adress: You said, that there was no fanservice for Goku, Gast, Buu and so on. May I remind you of pictures here? How are these not fanservice? Only because YOU are not attracted to naked male bodies, doesn't mean no one is. It still is a portrayal of very much muscular and naked skin. And nobody complained about that, did they? Hell, the Frost demons are naked all the time and somehow everybody is ok with it.
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Post by Conqueror Geng on Jan 26, 2021 21:21:58 GMT
There's fanservice of "sexual nature": possibly unneeded shots of ladies in revealing poses, or the contrary if it's a female).
And then there's the "male testosterone fantasy" fan service: this would pretty much include most characters: Vegeta, Goku, Gast, Buu, Dabura in that cover (lol, there were people even getting mad we didn't get him that way in the chapter).
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Post by lssj200000 on Jan 27, 2021 10:52:09 GMT
I’d like to give my opinion on the whole fan service thing.
Personally I don’t care about it. Fan service in most cases is either exaggerated for comedy which I don’t really find funny (unless it’s very shocking) or it’s mild such as a woman in a swimsuit and personally I don’t care for either. Concerning Bra’s boobs and all that I feel that’s more so a fault of her character design not being suited for battle damage. Assuming she was in a gi she wouldn’t have that much of a problem since battle damage with something like Goku’s clothes can be readily portrayed without even taking off his shirts.
I feel fan service is only bad when it’s inappropriate to the tone of the scene. An example off the top of my head is Erza’s torture scene in Fairy Tail were we get a shot of he in a prone position with her butt in the air. Such a position isn’t necessary to the scene at all and detracts from what we’re supposed to be seeing and feeling a good example of a naked woman being tortured would be from perhaps Rave Master were the character’s body is obscured by shadow and what’s visible is her finger nailess hands and various slashes. That scene inspite of her nudity still carries the tone right.
Final note on Bra I wouldn’t say she’s a fan service character since she doesn’t really fit that bill body wise but she is scantily clad however a scantily clad character isn’t inherent fan service since so long as the author doesn’t portray the character in a sexy position it wouldn’t really classify (the same reason a random shirtless dude isn’t fan service since he isn’t portrayed in a sexy light). Characters like Tifa (in the FFVII remake), Mirko from MHA and more reveal quite a bit of skin in their design but it isn’t inherently sexual when they’re fighting.
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Post by squirz96 on Jan 27, 2021 11:40:17 GMT
Like others have mentioned here Bra is fictional character. I haven't noticed anything particular "slutty" about her. Clothes she is wearing are normal for someone who is an "athele." Mentioned fact before. Bulma has been drawn much more "slutty" compared to Bra. Both in behavior and clothing sense. Drawing attractive 16 year old is not sexualization of said character. For me personally a little fan service Bra gets is not distraction and doesn't comes first when her name comes up.
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Post by ouv on Feb 1, 2021 12:31:42 GMT
I find it sad that, instead of interacting in the pages and pages of sincere discussion by earnest commenters about actual interesting topics, Ouv’s first and only post in almost a year was responding to a presumably troll thread made by a troll member who got banned very quickly. C’est la vie. I wrote back because the poster was going for character assassination : He expressed two lies (Salagir draws Bra+in a slutty way) in a specific way to imply to people that never met Salagir, that Salagir is a creep. Salagir and I are close friend for 10 years now, so I couldn’t let this unanswered. Because what he wrote is not right, and because it’s not true Now Bra being percieved as a Waifu is debatable. I know she’s not to Salagir, but I can understand if some readers see it that way. Ashanark For why I didn’t interact earlier with the forum members since my U13 chapter, I’ll answer that here : dbmenglish.freeforums.net/post/55785/thread |
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Post by SuperVegeta on Apr 17, 2021 5:09:26 GMT
I never really cared for that because the story has always been more important to me. I don't think Salagir is a creep because its a drawing. Art is just a material possession and in the end it doesn't even matter. Salagir is a amazing writer and has a great team behind him and his project. He follows the layout set by the original writer. I believe that me and many others are pleased with his manga.
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Post by baconfam on Jun 9, 2021 17:56:52 GMT
As much as I dislike Salagir's writing, you don't need to attack the man's character. (Especialyl with all the stuff Toriyama got away with.)
None of the panels Bra is fighting in seem outright sexual. That's all on you, the viewer.
Now if you really want to see forced fanservice, Cheelai's scenes in the new Broly movie really overdid it.
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