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Post by godjacob on Jun 14, 2021 16:17:28 GMT
So, making a thread for the first time hope this goes over well enough.
Anyway, wanted to open up chat about what the potential might be for Super's versions of Bulla, Pan and Uub are. Pan we've already seen seems to be an adorable freak out of the gate, able to fly and smash one of Pilaf's mechs as a baby. Uub we know exists in the canon, and he seems to already be implied to be a skilled martial artists and have significant ki during the Moro conflict. Bulla is the most unproven, but being a hybrid to a God Vegeta now opens up interesting doors.
Just curious what others here think on the subject.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 15, 2021 19:04:35 GMT
I think giving Uub God ki was to explain why Goku would still be excited to fight him after meeting all these opponents far stronger than Kid Buu. Assuming Goku surpasses Beerus by the end of DBS, Uub might have the highest potential for a mortal in the multiverse. Bra and Pan I'm not sure about. In EoZ, Bra didn't participating in the tournament so she's probably still like U18 Bra and has huge hybrid potential but not interested in training. Pan is the strongest at her age but being a quarter Saiyan might restrict her potential compared to the half Saiyans. There's a Xeno Pan in Heroes and I think she's one of the few returning Saiyan characters who hadn't received a transformation yet.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 15, 2021 19:29:48 GMT
I think giving Uub God ki was to explain why Goku would still be excited to fight him after meeting all these opponents far stronger than Kid Buu. Assuming Goku surpasses Beerus by the end of DBS, Uub might have the highest potential for a mortal in the multiverse. Bra and Pan I'm not sure about. In EoZ, Bra didn't participating in the tournament so she's probably still like U18 Bra and has huge hybrid potential but not interested in training. Pan is the strongest at her age but being a quarter Saiyan might restrict her potential compared to the half Saiyans. There's a Xeno Pan in Heroes and I think she's one of the few returning Saiyan characters who hadn't received a transformation yet. To be fair, even without God Ki, I still think he'd be excited. This is Goku, he enjoys a good spar with just about anyone. Even after being told/sensing Jiren was above Toppo, he still eagerly chased after Toppo first for another round. He seemed to have a blast fighting Caulifla & Kale despite both being lower than Toppo on the totem pole etc. Bulla (Is it Bulla or Bra? Most sources seem to suggest Bulla but Bra seems accepted here) seems to be on that path, but with things like babysitter Beerus who knows. Pan I disagree with, least in Super if anything it seems to be implied she has higher potential than Gohan did as she is already flying around and using ki while still in dippers. Don't see evidence to suggest being a quarter Saiyan is a limit to her.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 15, 2021 19:57:50 GMT
To be fair, even without God Ki, I still think he'd be excited. This is Goku, he enjoys a good spar with just about anyone. Even after being told/sensing Jiren was above Toppo, he still eagerly chased after Toppo first for another round. He seemed to have a blast fighting Caulifla & Kale despite both being lower than Toppo on the totem pole etc. I agree he likes a good spar but I think Uub was a special case since Goku asked for him to be reincarnated and was waiting to meet him for years. Tournament contestants in DB rarely appear again after it ends unless it's the following tournament or they become friends with Goku. True and I guess Toriyama's version of Pan might end up stronger than in GT and Heroes. She was definitely stronger than Gohan at that age in EoZ but so was Goten at the age of 7 before he lost interest in training as he got older. There's no way to know for sure since it depends if Toriyama ever decides to go past EoZ.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 15, 2021 20:09:02 GMT
To be fair, even without God Ki, I still think he'd be excited. This is Goku, he enjoys a good spar with just about anyone. Even after being told/sensing Jiren was above Toppo, he still eagerly chased after Toppo first for another round. He seemed to have a blast fighting Caulifla & Kale despite both being lower than Toppo on the totem pole etc. I agree he likes a good spar but I think Uub was a special case since Goku asked for him to be reincarnated and was waiting to meet him for years. Tournament contestants in DB rarely appear again after it ends unless it's the following tournament or they become friends with Goku. I'd still call Uub a special case, in that it is Goku's personal pet project. Take someone with the potential Goku saw in Majin Buu, and turn it to the path of good to fight for fun rather than the end of the world. It's just the God Ki factor makes Uub more special as a bonus. Bulla (Is it Bulla or Bra? Most sources seem to suggest Bulla but Bra seems accepted here) seems to be on that path, but with things like babysitter Beerus who knows. Pan I disagree with, least in Super if anything it seems to be implied she has higher potential than Gohan did as she is already flying around and using ki while still in dippers. Don't see evidence to suggest being a quarter Saiyan is a limit to her. True and I guess Toriyama's version of Pan might end up stronger than in GT and Heroes. She was definitely stronger than Gohan at that age in EoZ but so was Goten at the age of 7 before he lost interest in training as he got older. There's no way to know for sure since it depends if Toriyama ever decides to go past EoZ. Indeed all we can do is speculate of the future, which is the purpose of this thread lol
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Post by remicas on Jun 18, 2021 11:42:22 GMT
Let's see.
First off, let's consider how much the strength of the parents reflect on the potential of the child. We can infer it does have an impact when looking at Goku and Vegeta's sons.
Gohan has always been noted has having an incredible potential, speculated coming from being à Saiyan-Earthling hybrid, making him grow in strength at a quicker pace than his father. After one year of training under Piccolo he was about twice as strong as Goku was against Raditz, and when training with his father in the Room of Spirit and Time went from not being able to turn Super Saiyan to being on the verge of Super Saiyan 2.
Goten is even more ridiculous. It's unclear when he was conceived, if Goku at the time was just SSJ1 or FPSSJ1, but je was shown being able to turn SSJ1 effortlessly, after training with his mother and play-fighting with Trunks.
Trunks, who also has an interesting difference with his future conterpart, as like with Goten kid Trunks could turn SSJ1 with pretty much no effort while Future Trunks required the traumatic death of his mentor Gohan (influence of the training to prepare for the Androids?).
Now let's look at Pan. When she was conceived before Battle of the Gods, Gohan was already on a decline from the strength he gained during the Buu Saga. In a more dramatic rate than during the seven years between the Cell Games and Buu, as during the Resurrection of Frieza he isn't sure he can turn Super Saiyan.
Bra, on the other hand, was born right before the Tournament of Power, with her father Vegeta having at this time reached Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and displaying during said tournament an even higher version of that form.
On their mother side, however, Pan's mother Videl was one of the strongest non-ki fighter on Earth (after all, Satan did win a Martial Arts Tournament before challenging Cell, and most likely all the tournaments between this one and the Buu Saga's, and she's stronger than him) before learning to fly. Meanwhile, Bulma is a brilliant scientist, but not a fighter (mediocre or otherwise).
There's also the question of how the hybridation work. We know half-Saiyan, half-Earthling have greater potential than Full Saiyan. What with Pan being à quarter Saiyan? She's Saiyan enough for à mystical ritual bringing forth a Super Saiyan God. Maybe it doesn't matter, and as long as you have a drop of Saiyan blood in your ancestry you still get all the perks, genetics be damned? Who knows.
As an aside, that reqlly make me wonder what woukd Tarble and Gure's kids could look like. Though since I guess they've been married for a long time without kidd being mentionned maybe their biologies don't allow it.
So in term of inherited potential, I suppose Bra's would be higher than Pan's. However in Dragonball, genetic disposition is only half the battle: fighting spirit and commitment to better oneself is the other.
In that departement, Pan in Super and the End Of Z has it covered: she's able to fly as à baby (which is a technique you have to learn and not coming from inherent strength, as shown with Goten, or Uub at the End of Z), can make Future Trunks in his base struggle to keep his sword away from her and throw punches that actually hurt him a bit, and during the tournament at the End of Z she seems to enjoy training with her grandfather (even if all we're shown is her circling around the planet), while adopting à serious composure while fighting an adversary way below her league, and in the anime after Goku and Uub left the tournament she's shown beating her uncle Goten (and with Goten's dejected look, he wasn't holding back besides not turning SSJ, so base Pan > base Goten), though that part while amusing might not be canon.
Also, considering that during the ritual to bring forth the Super Saiyan Gold, all the other Saiyan went SSJ and Videl's hair also turn gold (though her eyes don't become green). Could that mean Pan turned Super Saiyan in the womb? Unlikely, because otherwise... damn.
Of course, she's a 4/5 year old at the time, and may be equating training qnd fighting as fun time with her grandpa, while she could grow less fond of it when growing up like Trunks and Goten appears to have. It is interesting to note that her future is actually discussed in Super, with Satan planning for her to take over his dojo one day, Chichi wanting her to be raised as a proper girl, while Videl doesn't want to pressure her in any way but let her choose what path she'll take. Oh, and Goku is sure she'll turn SSJ one day.
As for Bra, there's less material. She doesn't really show anything as far as I recall, and she doesn't enter the tournament instead watching excitingly alongside her mother. Which doesn't tell much, she could be uninterested in fighting herself, or since she's younger than Pan just not allowed to compete.
However, both being Saiyan hybrids have an already mapped path if they do become fighters. As I recall, in an old interview Toriyama was open to the idea of Pan turning SSJ, but was held back by not knowing what a female Super Saiyan would look like. Seems he did with Kale and Caulifla by now. He also mused with the idea of Pan unlocking a form never seen before (which after Super sounds even more impressive considering all the new transformations the show brought up).
Uub is a more open question, as he's born an Earthling, yet is the reincarnation of Kid Buu, and now thanks to Super has access to god powers. Though more than Goku wanting to fight him (he did promise to fight him when wishing Kid Buu to be reborn as a good person), it's more his decision to train Uub to reach his full potential that is interestibg to me. He could just have been disappointed and bored and leave it at that, instead he decides to move in Uub's village and dedicate years of training him to get a good rematch. When at this point Goku would have Super Saiyan Blue, Ultra Instinct (maybe integrated in his base form as is currently what he's currently aiming to in the manga), plus whatever else he's going to get before the manga finally decides it's time to get to the End of Z. Though for that they'll need to allow Trunks, Goten and Marron to grow up (I could understand Goten inheriting his father's growth spurts, maybe Marron not being helped by her father being vertically challenged, but Pan was born in 779, Future Gohan died in 780, and by that time Future Trunks had a teenager's height, and besides their power level and upbringing he's the same guy as main timeline Trunks).
Maybe like in DBM, Goku will teach Uub the Kaioken, but also Ultra Instinct since he's at it (though if I understand the mechanics of each, interestingly both can't be used at the same time). Plus whatever powers he gained from the Grand Kaioshin/being the reincarnation of Buu (looks like Salagir was right in the money with Uub having magic after all).
So, I could see Uub getting strong real fast, having Goku focused on his training and thanks to his pre-disposition. Meanwhile for Pan, getting to his level would be a slow and painful grind in comparison (and I don't expect Uub's training to be a field of roses), though reaching that level woukd take her à fraction of the time it took her grandfather. As for Bulla, it's a coin flip. If she becomes a fighter, then with Bra they could make à great duo, with maybe the Fusion Dance as back up. If she doesn't, she can be more the Bulma of her generation, solving problems where punching really hard wouldn't really work.
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