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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 16, 2021 23:49:12 GMT
Fan works and their multipliers, and also the "canon" multipliers.
And go.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 17, 2021 0:36:45 GMT
The SEG that came out in 2009 has SSJ2 2x and SSJ3 4x the previous forms. In DBM, it's 10x for SSJ2 and SSJ3 although those were only in old author comments and maybe once in the novel. It varies in fan comics I've seen depending on when they started but most don't specify what they use. I think it's better that way since most shonen series get the point across that this new power-up or transformation provides a big boost without needing exact numbers or multipliers.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 17, 2021 1:16:47 GMT
The SEG that came out in 2009 has SSJ2 2x and SSJ3 4x the previous forms. In DBM, it's 10x for SSJ2 and SSJ3 although those were only in old author comments and maybe once in the novel. It varies in fan comics I've seen depending on when they started but most don't specify what they use. I think it's better that way since most shonen series get the point across that this new power-up or transformation provides a big boost without needing exact numbers or multipliers. Skarr, this thread was reserved for mystifio. My thread is ruined.  |
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Post by Skarr on Jun 17, 2021 2:32:48 GMT
When you want to use the upside down Patrick emoji but you realize you're on the forum...  |
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 17, 2021 2:55:04 GMT
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Post by Blaze on Jun 19, 2021 7:35:09 GMT
I will use this thread to elaborate on how I don't think the Super Saiyan transformations are multipliers.
So, firstly, there's nothing in the original manga indicating they're multipliers. Which is interesting, because there is stuff showing it for other transformations/techniques. Like Kaioken and the Oozaru form. SSJ boosted Goku 50x his base strength on Namek, yes, but that doesn't mean it's a multiplier. I think it's much more likely that the transformations are potential unlocks of varying degrees. The Daizenshuu even states that Super Saiyan 3 unleashes all the latent power of a saiyan.
(As a tangent, this helps with not letting the Buu Arc scaling get too out of control, as SSJ3 Gotenks doesn't have to be so so so much stronger than SSJ Gotenks. And I don't think he is, based on his battles.)
In fact, throughout the manga we're not really given anything telling us how much the base saiyans improved after Namek at all. It's all about improving Super Saiyan. I don't think their bases did stay the same, but I think we should consider the possibility that they got more out of the Super Saiyan form as time went on.
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Post by darrieloni on Jun 19, 2021 13:48:48 GMT
The general gist of it being that it is something between Base x30,000 and Base x33,000. The people I talked to seemed to mostly land on x32,000
If for some ungodly reason you want a multiplier for SSG, I'll take this chance since I'm stuck waiting in a line with nothing better to do.
Get ready for some really stupid shit.
- Goku said fusion wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus - Goku had no way of knowing how strong SSG is - Super Saiyan God wasn' t enough to beat Beerus either. Not even close.
Basically the only comparison we can make is that neither SSG nor SSJ3 Vegetto would be enough to defeat Beerus, so we might as well just go the convenient route and call them equals.
Now, Daizenshuu 7 compares Base Vegetto to SSJ3 Goku so we'll just assume they're equals as well
SSJ3 is Base x400 so SSJ3 Vegetto would be 400 stronger than SSJ3 Goku
This lands Super Saiyan God at Base x160,000 which is fittingly exactly 5 times as powerful as SSJ4
Now Super Saiyan Blue splits off with the anime and manga continuities.
In the manga it is flat out stated to be SSG x10 in the U6 Tournament, when SSG Goku is compared to SSB Vegeta at 10% power. So Base x1,600,000
Later on they make "Perfect Blue" which is just the true power of Blue. We know SSJ is x50 so we can just assume the full power of Blue turns that x10 into the full x50, meaning Perfect Blue is just Blue x5
Anime Blue is just SSG + SSJ from the start, so it is the same SSG x50 as the manga's Perfect Blue, which means both are Base x8,000,000
We already know how Kaio Ken works and Goku stacks x20 on top of Blue in the anime (I think only x2 in the manga), and then Evolution Blue is supposedly even with that. So we just take Anime Blue/Perfect Blue and multiply that by 20
Blue KKx20/Blue Evolution are both Base x160,000,000
All we know about Ultra Instinct is that the first usage was stronger than Blue KKx20 + a Spirit Bomb I'm gonna assume that Spirit Bomb was equal to Blue x20, so basically Blue x40 with both combined, and Ultra Instinct Sign was stronger than that. I'll lowball it to hypothetical Blue KKx50
This would place the first usage of Ultra Instinct Sign at Base x400,000,000
Are you rolling your eyes yet?
Edit:
Then LSSJ Broly is about even with SSJ2 Gohan, and we know SSJ2 is base x100
This means that Z-Broly's LSSJ is SSJ x100, or Base x5,000
It's stupid. Just like Z-Broly. It really fits him.
I will use this thread to elaborate on how I don't think the Super Saiyan transformations are multipliers. So, firstly, there's nothing in the original manga indicating they're multipliers. Which is interesting, because there is stuff showing it for other transformations/techniques. Like Kaioken and the Oozaru form. SSJ boosted Goku 50x his base strength on Namek, yes, but that doesn't mean it's a multiplier. I think it's much more likely that the transformations are potential unlocks of varying degrees. The Daizenshuu even states that Super Saiyan 3 unleashes all the latent power of a saiyan. The guides also have the x50, x2, and x4 multipliers which would be far more consistent than just a vague "potential unlock" It's really not all that out of control. SSJ Gotenks was comparable to SSJ3 Goku, and probably didn't get much stronger in the Time Chamber, so we'll assume he was weaker and now they're equal. SSJ3 Gotenks would be SSJ3 Goku x8, and Ultimate Gohan maybe x10 as strong as SSJ3 Goku, with Super Buu really not being all that much stronger, even as Buuhan.
But let's really give Buuhan a buff here and say absorbing Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks made him equal to Ultimate Gohan, so absorbing Gohan doubled his power. Buuhan would be 20 times as strong as SSJ3 Goku
A 20 times gap is really not all that big compared to the other arcs.
Which is still smaller than the gap between Goku and everyone else bar Freeza on Namek (60,000,000 for Goku, around 2,500,000 for Vegeta)
Smaller than the gap between Oozaru Vegeta and everyone except Goku (Around 170,000 if you account for battle damage, compared to Piccolo's 3,000)
Really the Cell games are the only saga with tight and relatively small power gaps.
Really the only outlier with a humongous power gap in the Buu saga would be Vegetto, who is meant to be just insanely bonkers powerful
In the Buu saga, Vegeta and Gohan agreed to remain in base for the tournament, yet Vegeta was still confident he could win, while knowing that Android 18 and Piccolo were both participants. Gohan also didn't seem to worried, and neither did Goku since he participated too, but I don't remember if he agreed to stay in base.
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Post by Blaze on Jun 19, 2021 15:06:33 GMT
The guides also have the x50, x2, and x4 multipliers which would be far more consistent than just a vague "potential unlock" Why do we care about that sort of consistency? Do we also try to apply consistency to training increases? Or Zenkais? Because good luck with that. All we have from the manga is that Super Saiyan and its further forms make you a lot stronger. And I don't take the guides that seriously, especially not ones that came out in 2009. Buff Buu is stronger than Super Buu. Buff Buu is formed through Kid Buu absorbing South Kaioshin. Buu's absorptions all seem additive, except for Fat Buu due to Dai Kaioshin's good nature. It's possible that Kid Buu absorbing South Kaioshin randomly made him 10x stronger. Or it's possible it didn't, and it only made Kid Buu somewhat stronger. Enough to put him above himself as Super Buu, who despite being stronger, wouldn't be 8x stronger. (I guess you could also argue that South Kaioshin is as strong as Super Buu.) If we ignore guidebook multipliers, all we have is that SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ Gotenks~SSJ3 Goku. And based on their fight, I don't think there's an 8x gap between Super Saiyan Gotenks and Super Buu. Like, there's clearly a gap, but 8x? Besides, if you take everything super literally and apply SEG multipliers, then SSJ3 Gotenks isn't 8x SSJ3 Goku. He's ~400x SSJ3 Goku. Base Gotenks was claimed to have a chance against Super Buu by Piccolo. People use that argument a lot. So, I just checked and I don't see anything showing that Vegeta knew #18 and especially Piccolo were competing. Unless there's something after the flight to the Tenkaichi Budokai? Also, Vegeta said it was fine for them not to transform because then they'd all be on equal footing. He's clearly talking about the saiyans. Gohan didn't want his disguise to be revealed, I think whether or not he'd transform if he had to face Piccolo is in question. Now more importantly. If the saiyan's bases really were stronger than Piccolo, then there is no chance that Super Saiyan remained a 50x increase. Piccolo did not appear that far off SSJ Vegeta and Trunks at the Cell Games. SSJ Goku was maybe double Vegeta and Trunks after their multiple trips into the RoSaT, based on everyone's reactions to Goku powering up at Karin's Tower. SSJ Gohan was above Goku, who was then slightly surpassed by Buu Arc Goku. I don't see any space here for a 50x increase. |
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Post by Skarr on Jun 19, 2021 15:34:26 GMT
I will use this thread to elaborate on how I don't think the Super Saiyan transformations are multipliers. So, firstly, there's nothing in the original manga indicating they're multipliers. Which is interesting, because there is stuff showing it for other transformations/techniques. Like Kaioken and the Oozaru form. SSJ boosted Goku 50x his base strength on Namek, yes, but that doesn't mean it's a multiplier. I think it's much more likely that the transformations are potential unlocks of varying degrees. The Daizenshuu even states that Super Saiyan 3 unleashes all the latent power of a saiyan. I liked this simpler approach more and I think is what shonen series use when they have multiple transformations and each level unlocks more of their potential. I recall something similar was said about SSJ4 so maybe the idea at the time was that it unlocks more potential including the power that comes from Oozaru. That could explain how SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta were relatively close despite Goku having SSJ3 and training with Uub for years. The Daizenshuu guidebooks that came out in the 90's only said that SSJ Goku was 50x stronger on Namek. It could apply to the rest of the series or not but they don't specify. The only guidebook to mention other multipliers was the SEG in 2009. The Chozenshuu guidebooks that came out a few years ago were mostly re-releasing information from previous guidebooks and I believe they left out the SEG multipliers. I like what a translator on Kanzenshuu pointed out. He said that guidebooks were limited release of a few thousand copies and quickly out of print. The only reason we know about them is because someone bought a used copy and translated it online. They were more of a collector's item since the DB manga sold hundreds of millions of copies so the majority of DB wouldn't have access to a copy of the guidebooks. He also pointed out that they have conflicting information like how the fusions work because it depends on the staff member compiling them at the time and very little was from Toriyama. |
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Post by darrieloni on Jun 19, 2021 16:20:30 GMT
All we have from the manga is that Super Saiyan and its further forms make you a lot stronger. And I don't take the guides that seriously, especially not ones that came out in 2009.
Unless that guide supports you by saying it is a potential unlock apparently.
Plus if you actually do power scale seriously, the numbers actually match everything and make perfect sense with little to no issue. Regardless of what Super fanboys say.
What? This is absolute nonsense.
That was Buff Super Buu not Kid Buu. Cell demonstrated that anyone can buff up to increase their power.
It's literally as simple as Super Buu buffed up because he was unstable and transforming back. That doesn't mean Kid Buu w/ South Kaioshin is Super Buu level. South Kaioshin would have taken a massive dump on Kid Buu if he were that powerful.
Plus why can't he be 8x stronger? I have pointed out that this is not an unusually massive gap compared to the previous arcs.
If we ignore the guides, which we have no reason to since their numbers make perfect sense with what was shown in the story.
This is either blatantly false or anime filler. Piccolo straight up chastises Gotenks saying he could win if he used Super Saiyan, but didn't.
Vegeta knew Goten and Goku were going to participate, so it's safe to assume the Z-Fighters were in contact enough that Vegeta would know at least about Piccolo being there. And even if he didn't, if he thought he was gonna get murked by Piccolo then we would have gotten some internal monologue about that, as it would be a relevant point to bring up
Literally all Piccolo did in the Cell games was gasp at people's power and get his ass kicked by a Cell Jr. Yes, it is stupid that he got surpassed so much, but there's just no proof that he wasn't, and the tournament acts as proof that he was. So it's 0-1 and it seems Piccolo was left in the dust.
While that is true, we can actually use different points from the guides to get a pretty simple and effective explanation for fusion.
Goku = Majin Vegeta We assume that Vegeta kept the Majin boost because they would make his body as strong as possible to fight Kid Buu
The guide I posted earlier states that Base Vegetto is comparable to SSJ3 Goku
So at least in Z the fusion is as simple as A+B x200
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Post by Skarr on Jun 19, 2021 16:57:45 GMT
All we have from the manga is that Super Saiyan and its further forms make you a lot stronger. And I don't take the guides that seriously, especially not ones that came out in 2009. The 2009 guidebook is the only one that mentions multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3. The guidebooks that came after didn't include this information so it must not have been that important to re-release. In the Cell Games, a tired FPSSJ Goku was on the ground while Piccolo was still standing against a Cell Jr. That could mean Piccolo was at least above a tired SSJ Goku since he didn't revert back to base. In Buu saga, Buutenks took the form of Piccolo after Gotenks defused so unless Buu could only access their base power then Piccolo should be above SSJ Goten and Trunks. We know Vegeta and Gohan needed SSJ to spare with the SSJ kids so I think all base Saiyans should still be below Piccolo. Herms had a breakdown of all the times fusion was mentioned in the various guidebooks (you have to click to see the rest). Some said Potara is stronger, others imply they're equal, one multiplies their power together, then some different combination. I think the only thing they have in common is that fusion is more the sum of its parts but the specifics vary. To get A + B x 200, you have to use information from two separate conflicting guidebooks because the SEG that gave the multipliers also said that Vegetto was Goku x Vegeta. |
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Post by darrieloni on Jun 19, 2021 17:20:05 GMT
The 2009 guidebook is the only one that mentions multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3. The guidebooks that came after didn't include this information so it must not have been that important to re-release. It doesn't really conflict with anything shown in the show, so I see no reason to go against those multipliers. The reason they weren't printed again is probably because official sources usually suck at power scaling. But even a broken clock can be right twice a day, and this was one of those times.
In the anime. In the manga we actually don't get a single panel of Piccolo facing a Cell Jr, and Goku seems to fall at the same time as Tenshinhan, who was definitely not keeping up with the SSJs, with both of them hitting the ground like a page before Gohan goes SSJ2.
If you really wanna stretch what counts, then this here is the only panel we have where we can see Piccolo fight a Cell Jr And it doesn't really look like he's doing anything
They needed Super Saiyan to stay far enough ahead to be able to defend themselves without going all out and accidentally hurting the kids.
I have stated before that Base Vegetto = SSJ3 Goku = SSJ Gotenks Or, to shorten it, Base Vegetto = SSJ Gotenks. Meaning if the two fusions are equal then the kids in SSJ are as strong as their dads in base (who were stronger than base Gohan at the time)
I'm not sure if there's something to be embedded here. It appears when I click to reply, but not in the thread itself. And in the reply screen it just says something akin to "Your tweet will appear here."
Regardless that was just a little bit of random trivia I threw in. It wasn't really meant as a point.
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Post by Skarr on Jun 19, 2021 18:18:29 GMT
It doesn't really conflict with anything shown in the show, so I see no reason to go against those multipliers. The reason they weren't printed again is probably because official sources usually suck at power scaling. But even a broken clock can be right twice a day, and this was one of those times. I think it's fine to use them but I thought you meant that you weren't using a guidebook from 2009 and might've thought these were revealed in an earlier guidebook. There were 10 volumes of the Daizenshuu and various other random guidebooks before and after the SEG but it's the only one to include those multipliers. You get different interpretations depending on the guidebook so I think fans are free to choose which they want to use for their personal interpretation but no way to decide what's the definitive one used in the manga. I was going by the page Gohan went SSJ2 and shows Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo still standing against a Cell Jr while Goku was on the ground. I'm not sure that's what Toriyama was trying to convey when SSJ Trunks landed a hit on Vegeta and SSJ Goten was shown putting up some resistance sparring against Gohan. If Trunks was able to land a hit on SSJ Vegeta at all then base Vegeta would've have stood much of a chance. SSJ Future Trunks was shown sparing with base Gohan in the manga so I don't think Toriyama would have the adults use SSJ against the kids unless they needed it. He could've had SSJ Trunks only landing a hit on base Vegeta and base Gohan sparing with SSJ Goten since that the Future Trunks chapter came out shortly before the Buu saga. Maybe if I post it as a link it'll work. You have to scroll down to "show this thread" to see the rest. |
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Post by Blaze on Jun 19, 2021 23:45:45 GMT
Unless that guide supports you by saying it is a potential unlock apparently. Plus if you actually do power scale seriously, the numbers actually match everything and make perfect sense with little to no issue. Regardless of what Super fanboys say.
I don't take the Daizenshuu that seriously either. I think SSJ3 functioning like it says makes sense, but it's more like a headcanon. Also, the fact that it says SSJ3 draws out the latent power of a saiyan to its limits arguably puts it in conflict with it being a 400x multiplier. Like, it just so happens that every saiyan's hidden power is 400x their base form? Anyway, Toriyama was not drawing the manga thinking that SSJ3 was a 400x multiplier. It's not the Kaioken.
I don't know if this is a translation difference, but in my manga when Kibitoshin explains the process of Buu's absorptions, Elder Kaioshin asks if the Buu after absorbing South Kaioshin was the "muscle man" they'd just seen Buu turn into. Kibitoshin said yes. Toyatarou seems to be under that impression as well, since he drew Kid Buu +South Kaioshin the same as the buff Buu in the Super manga.
I'm not saying there aren't gaps bigger than 8x in previous arcs. I'm saying that I don't think the fight between SSJ Gotenks and Super Buu indicates an 8x gap. I'll admit this is entirely my opinion.
Btw, if you take these things seriously you have to argue that SSJ Gotenks and so probably SSJ3 Goku are 50x stronger than Piccolo. Because base Gotenks>Piccolo. Of course, I don't think that's an issue for you considering how strong you think the base saiyans are.
2009 though. Not only is it extra-manga material, but it's extra-manga material that is 14 years removed from the end of the manga. The manga stands on its own as a body of work, I don't know why it's necessary to take things outside it like this.
I haven't even watched the anime properly in like a decade. In the RoSaT, when base Gotenks is about to face Super Buu, Piccolo thinks to himself "He does seem different!! They've powered up hugely!! This may succeed!!" Piccolo saw Vegeta completely fail as a Super Saiyan 2. Using the SEG numbers, that would make SSJ3 Gotenks, at minimum, 100x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Minimum.
Exactly, it's an assumption. Piccolo wasn't even on the plane they took to get there. But regardless, again, Vegeta was talking about the saiyans. Not to mention, it's Vegeta.
I think Skarr did a pretty good job arguing against this point.
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Post by squirz96 on Jun 20, 2021 3:06:28 GMT
The main problem with multipliers and power levels in general is not that they are bullsh** but that fandom took them into heart too much despite being just a small fraction of a series. I believe that Toriyama wanted to provide that Ki sensing ability that dragon team has is not that widespread and others have to relly on specific devices that read your opponents power level. Sure it's fun to create power level list but arguing over if it's correct or wrong is a waste of time. There is no formula or rules to be followed. We are talking about Dragon Ball here.
Regarding SSJ2,SSJ3 multipliers I would swap them. Somehow the series failed to provide that SSJ3 is 4x stronger than SSJ2. 3x maybe but 4? I would also not give x10 multipliers to ssj2 and ssj3. At most I would give x6 to SSJ2.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 20, 2021 3:28:34 GMT
The main problem with multipliers and power levels in general is not that they are bullsh** but that fandom took them into heart too much despite being just a small fraction of a series. I believe that Toriyama wanted to provide that Ki sensing ability that dragon team has is not that widespread and others have to relly on specific devices that read your opponents power level. Sure it's fun to create power level list but arguing over if it's correct or wrong is a waste of time. There is no formula or rules to be followed. We are talking about Dragon Ball here. Regarding SSJ2,SSJ3 multipliers I would swap them. Somehow the series failed to provide that SSJ3 is 4x stronger than SSJ2. 3x maybe but 4? I would also not give x10 multipliers to ssj2 and ssj3. At most I would give x6 to SSJ2. power levels were too accurate though. thats why AT dropped them as they gave away the fight. take cui vs vegeta for instance, vegetas number was higher, so he won. the only reason people say PL's are bs are from tfs. as to multipliers, well, when you need only a 25% advantage over someone, to literally one shot them, a big increase isn't required. so even if gohan were like 70% of cells max power as a ssj1, he could go from being roflstomped by cell to making a roflcopter out of cell by doubling his ki. it'd be like when ginyu was laughing at gokus measly 90k, but shit bricks at his 180k. the gap in power could be the same between cell and gohan by merely doubling. or it could be a damn 100x increase and gohan stomps a mud hole in his ass, same difference. |
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Post by squirz96 on Jun 20, 2021 13:53:44 GMT
The main problem with multipliers and power levels in general is not that they are bullsh** but that fandom took them into heart too much despite being just a small fraction of a series. I believe that Toriyama wanted to provide that Ki sensing ability that dragon team has is not that widespread and others have to relly on specific devices that read your opponents power level. Sure it's fun to create power level list but arguing over if it's correct or wrong is a waste of time. There is no formula or rules to be followed. We are talking about Dragon Ball here. Regarding SSJ2,SSJ3 multipliers I would swap them. Somehow the series failed to provide that SSJ3 is 4x stronger than SSJ2. 3x maybe but 4? I would also not give x10 multipliers to ssj2 and ssj3. At most I would give x6 to SSJ2. power levels were too accurate though. thats why AT dropped them as they gave away the fight. take cui vs vegeta for instance, vegetas number was higher, so he won. the only reason people say PL's are bs are from tfs. as to multipliers, well, when you need only a 25% advantage over someone, to literally one shot them, a big increase isn't required. so even if gohan were like 70% of cells max power as a ssj1, he could go from being roflstomped by cell to making a roflcopter out of cell by doubling his ki. it'd be like when ginyu was laughing at gokus measly 90k, but shit bricks at his 180k. the gap in power could be the same between cell and gohan by merely doubling. or it could be a damn 100x increase and gohan stomps a mud hole in his ass, same difference. Well it is natural that larger number wins against lower one. Considering Cell vs Gohan, remember that Cell had came back and much stronger. We don't know how much but he got boost from his "fake death." So 1.4x gap had definately plummeted. Cell was pretty confident that he could defeat SSJ2 Gohan but Gohan still at that time haven't pushed his limits. |
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Post by supergojita3 on Jun 20, 2021 22:19:56 GMT
power levels were too accurate though. thats why AT dropped them as they gave away the fight. take cui vs vegeta for instance, vegetas number was higher, so he won. the only reason people say PL's are bs are from tfs. as to multipliers, well, when you need only a 25% advantage over someone, to literally one shot them, a big increase isn't required. so even if gohan were like 70% of cells max power as a ssj1, he could go from being roflstomped by cell to making a roflcopter out of cell by doubling his ki. it'd be like when ginyu was laughing at gokus measly 90k, but shit bricks at his 180k. the gap in power could be the same between cell and gohan by merely doubling. or it could be a damn 100x increase and gohan stomps a mud hole in his ass, same difference. Well it is natural that larger number wins against lower one. Considering Cell vs Gohan, remember that Cell had came back and much stronger. We don't know how much but he got boost from his "fake death." So 1.4x gap had definately plummeted. Cell was pretty confident that he could defeat SSJ2 Gohan but Gohan still at that time haven't pushed his limits. thats true. cells zenkai was able to make up the difference, regardless of the ssj2 multiplier. and well, I'm glad you get the PL being BS fallacy. I think the one time [well more than 1] where the bigger stronger power level meant nothing was ussj trunks vs cell, but that was conditional. the buffed cell was also the same idea. And to think cell still wasn't going all out vs ssj2 gohan post zenkai. He could buff up, and warp blast gohan or just buff up a little like assj vegeta. |
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