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Post by godjacob on Jun 23, 2021 6:16:05 GMT
Simple question. Bra is without any hesitation I think the most controversial character in all of DBM. She has a lot going against her especially in the last few years which has hindered the enjoyment of the story for many (Myself included) but she does seem to have her fans still. So I am curious, how would you try to improve Bra and make her more a net positive to the story than something to its detriment?
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Post by عمار on Jun 23, 2021 15:06:31 GMT
So I am curious, how would you try to improve Bra and make her more a net positive to the story than something to its detriment? Easy! I will treated her as what she is: A dislikable character. Ashanark has describe it the best way: Now, let's talk about Character Shilling.
Many people's problem with Bra is that what we're told about Bra and how people react to her is very different from how she actually acts. In other words, people's problem is that Bra is actually a dislikable character, but that the story itself paints her as likable. Because of this, she's accused of being a Creator's Pet, if not worse. Bra vs. Cold is without a doubt the comic's most controversial moment because it appears Bra was put into a situation that was unwinnable and which she couldn't survive without some sort of contrived ending. Many people saw this as proof that Bra is a Mary Sue. The main problem with Bra is not her character, it's how the story view her character. That's the only change I will do; Stop the "character shilling" or blaming other characters for her flaws! And let other character call her out on her bullshit (Not like how U18 Bra did it! -_-). And maybe also make her afraid of death to make her character more unique (That will also explain why she always use senzu beans). And one last touch, Make her get killed in the majin arc by the "weaklings" to know that power is not everything. That way Bra will turn from the worst written character (in my opinion) to the best. The thing is that Salagir & Bra's fans don't understand is that most of people who dislike her are not "anti-Bra" or "haters". Being a "hater" means that you don't want a certain character to get a good development, you want them to disappear, die, or get even more bad so you can hate them. I don't hate Bra, I just dislike how she's written. If only Salagir will get this...
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Post by Lurking on Jun 24, 2021 0:24:22 GMT
A can of gasoline and a few matches.
...Okay, fine. I've prattled on about this more than a few times, so I'll spin a different angle.
Bra has an inferiority complex because big daddy Vegito was super abusive, but only to her, and nobody ever mentioned it or did anything to prevent this. Absolutely idiotic, especially since it was shorehorned in retroactively. Mystic Gohan is right around base Vegito level, but Pan isn't even in the same ballpark as Bra, even though she really should be. The only person who has shown any attempt to teach her anything, aside Vegito, was Gohan. Also ridiculous. We'll fix this in the following ways.
-Bra feels inferior Vegito is flawless and ultimately powerful. If you go by his appearance in the actual material, dude was basically the best of Vegeta and Goku, but with the ability to plan beyond 30 seconds into the future. He's successfully managing both families, raising her and Pan alongside Gohan, and is hailed as a god by entire species throughout the galaxy. Genuine idol worship would actually be understandable in such a life. No contrived abuse nonsense, he's just genuinely kind of 'above' mortal standards and she's fixated on this.
The other half of this should be Pan. No control issues to speak of, same general potential, likely no trouble understanding the more abstract or spiritual lessons the others try to impart. Now she has to balance love with envy while desperately trying to outdo her to be the 'rightful heir' or some such. Let this internal struggle be her 'dark' side instead of wanting to let loose and murder everyone.
-Gohan and Vegito are not the only ones that exist Where's Piccolo? Seriously, where in the world is he in all this. If anybody in the cast is going to have a handle on self control, it's the guy who's training consists of 90% meditation. He also watched his rival completely outstrip him by a comical margin while slowly fading into obscurity, so I wouldn't be surprised if he felt some measure of jealousy. Apply this to Tien and you can double dip. And just because he needs screentime, have Yamcha be the rich uncle that takes her out to goof off once in a while. You can have a scene about him explaining that power isn't everything in life while referencing every other character that bailed or settled down.
-She needs to fail Not just in terms of matches(ALTHOUGH), but have her lag behind in certain aspects of her training. There needs to be some balance, yet she's flawless at everything, if not just better than even Vegito, except when the plot decides she isn't. Which is only for ~drama.~ She doesn't need to be some super special berserker SS2, just have her struggle with the emotional rush it brings like Gohan originally did.
-People need to call her out This one explains itself. People that don't even know her jump in to shield her ass and nobody, even those from her own universe, have the spine to tell her when she's wrong. Except Vegito, but he's a baby killing evil monster for it.
Now sure, the Majin Rebellion may not even involve her if this is done, but... Good.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 24, 2021 0:40:41 GMT
A can of gasoline and a few matches. ...Okay, fine. I've prattled on about this more than a few times, so I'll spin a different angle. Bra has an inferiority complex because big daddy Vegito was super abusive, but only to her, and nobody ever mentioned it or did anything to prevent this. Absolutely idiotic, especially since it was shorehorned in retroactively. Mystic Gohan is right around base Vegito level, but Pan isn't even in the same ballpark as Bra, even though she really should be. The only person who has shown any attempt to teach her anything, aside Vegito, was Gohan. Also ridiculous. We'll fix this in the following ways. -Bra feels inferiorVegito is flawless and ultimately powerful. If you go by his appearance in the actual material, dude was basically the best of Vegeta and Goku, but with the ability to plan beyond 30 seconds into the future. He's successfully managing both families, raising her and Pan alongside Gohan, and is hailed as a god by entire species throughout the galaxy. Genuine idol worship would actually be understandable in such a life. The other half of this should be Pan. No control issues to speak of, same general potential, likely no trouble understanding the more abstract or spiritual lessons the others try to impart. Now she has to balance love with envy while desperately trying to outdo her to be the 'rightful heir' or some such. Let this internal struggle be her 'dark' side instead of wanting to let loose and murder everyone. -Gohan and Vegito are not the only ones that existWhere's Piccolo? Seriously, where in the world is he in all this. If anybody in the cast is going to have a handle on self control, it's the guy who's training consists of 90% meditation. He also watched his rival completely outstrip him by a comical margin while slowly fading into obscurity, so I wouldn't be surprised if he felt some measure of jealousy. Apply this to Tien and you can double dip. And just because he needs screentime, have Yamcha be the rich uncle that takes her out to goof off once in a while. You can have a scene about him explaining that power isn't everything in life while referencing every other character that bailed or settled down. -She needs to failNot just in terms of matches(ALTHOUGH), but have her lag behind in certain aspects of her training. There needs to be some balance, yet she's flawless at everything, if not just better than even Vegito, except when the plot decides she isn't. Which is only for ~drama.~ She doesn't need to be some super special berserker SS2, just have her struggle with the emotional rush it brings like Gohan originally did. -People need to call her outThis one explains itself. People that don't even know her jump in to shield her ass and nobody, even those from her own universe, have the spine to tell her when she's wrong. Except Vegito, but he's a baby killing evil monster for it. Now sure, the Majin Rebellion may not even involve her if this is done, but... Good. You know mentioning people in Bra's life who deserve a bigger role yet no mention of Bulma, her own mother who isn't even a spectator in this series. Seems like an odd omission to me.
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Post by Lurking on Jun 24, 2021 0:46:25 GMT
You know mentioning people in Bra's life who deserve a bigger role yet no mention of Bulma, her own mother who isn't even a spectator in this series. Seems like an odd omission to me. I didn't mention Videl either! I'm focusing on 'fighters' since those are likely the only people she'd go to for advice or help and they've already offloaded being her mom onto Gohan.
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Post by godjacob on Jun 24, 2021 1:01:22 GMT
You know mentioning people in Bra's life who deserve a bigger role yet no mention of Bulma, her own mother who isn't even a spectator in this series. Seems like an odd omission to me. I didn't mention Videl either! I'm focusing on 'fighters' since those are likely the only people she'd go to for advice or help and they've already offloaded being her mom onto Gohan. I was talking the comic itself not you specifically, though the lack of care for any impact Bulma would have on Bra is a bit of a general issue.
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Post by Solus on Jun 24, 2021 13:03:56 GMT
"How would you do Bra?2" The way she orders me to, I guess. Otherwise she might pulverize me.
Very poor choice of words. Is English your first language? But jokes aside, we need to see the end of it before we get to judge. I do understand all the critizism, but actually that's not unrealistic. Have you ever heard of entitled parents and how they think that their children could make no mistakes? Gohan sort of is such an entitled parent in regards to Bra. And other characters might be biased, too, which is perfectly fine. The problem is the balance between those that like Bra and those that call her out for it. But as the story continues, there might be some moments that reflect her behavior in a different light. So at that moment I wouldn't change anything.
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 2, 2021 6:35:09 GMT
All the building blocks are already there for U16 Bra to be a good or even great character. Most of the issues I have is the execution of certain plot points with her. Family drama, insecurity of her place in her family, the obsession with strength, and her relationship with her brothers, etc, can all be used to tell a good story. U16 being a slightly darker and more messed up version of U18 was probably always part of the plan. That is a good way to go about it to distinguish U16 from U18. I even liked how Salagir decided to mine the Vegetto never defusing meant Vegeta never really got to come to terms with his issues with himself or Goku that might have had a negative impact on Vegetto's personality. Even all the focus on U16 and them seeming to be a better version of U18 only to show the glaring flaws with them that U18 got over or didn't have is cool idea to go with the story.
I don't really think Bra or even the story we have need major changes. I believe with some small adjustments that her character could work and still be a good guy. Bra going SS2 and accidentally hurting Vegetto and Gohan then instantly regretting it and thinking back to her losing control again was a good moment. That informed us so much about Bra's character. It showed us her flaws, some of her better qualities (regretting hurting her family), and showed consequences to her actions. Bra failing her test from Vegetto, but Vegetto allowing her to continue anyway is good story direction. It shows Vegetto isn't the best parent and he is unintentionally reinforcing Bra's bad habits, while at the same time I feel Bra losing it because her opponent making light of Pan's death creates is understandable to readers. Here is where small adjustment could be made. Instead of Bra coming back thinking she did all she could she could have been nervous she failed and would be forced to dropout of the tournament. Instead Vegetto told her she needs more work, but since she technically ended it in one strike and held back (her opponent's body was fully intact as opposed to being obliterated like what Gohan did to them as a kid), that she passed. Other characters like Gohan or Piccolo could mention how Vegetto's decision was questionable and how he is too easy going at times with Bra. That right there already sets the stage of Vegetto's parenting style reinforcing Bra's bad habits while showing Bra's own flaws.
The story could mostly stay the same with Bra up until her match with King Cold. I know some people didn't like how Bra mocked U19's problems or felt her trying to horn in on U18 goal of saving the universe was bad, but I think it works for her character. It shows Bra can be abrasive, but she also capable of having empathy for others. I think the biggest change I would make is I would have Bra flat out turn down King Cold's bet. I think a reason we got her to accept the bet was to give us good match and to show us how resourceful and pragmatic Bra can be, but it had the opposite effect for most fans. Whereas I feel like a good way to show Bra is more pragmatic than Goku or Vegeta would be to have her turn down the bet of not going Super Saiyan. It would show us even though Bra felt like she could probably win without that she didn't want to handicap herself just in case. Bra should mention how she cannot afford to be reckless because she promised U19 that if she wins she would use her wish to fix their planet. That would show readers that while Bra is a jerk that she took her promise to U19 seriously. We could have seen more of her better qualities. It would be a short fight still, but most people went in expecting it to be a short battle anyway.
The Majin Bra could have been played with her seemingly brutalizing her opponents at first, but either one of the Gohans or Piccolo notice it makes no sense for them to be alive since Bra could have killed them 10 times over. That would have let us know that some part of Bra is still fighting the control and her love for her family is still there. U16 Gohan could call out Bra on this fact, we see it shocks Bra, he challenges her to kill him. When Bra does kill Gohan she should be distressed and confused as to why she did it. Have her be conflicted the entire time. That way when U18 Bra confronts her U16 Bra's breakdown will feel more organic. The whole breaking out the Majin possession fully doesn't need to happen. The idea of U18 Bra getting through Bra did that job. The Majin possession did its job in showing Bra's existing character flaws and making her questioning herself. Lose the whole Vegetto will kill Bra angle altogether. It's not needed. Bra already showed she loves her family and doesn't want to hurt them. Bra being freed from possession and having to come to gripes that she killed Gohan while possessed. That would eat away at her more than anything Vegetto could do. It would be something Bra herself cannot pass blame to someone else. Since we already see past examples of Bra being a decent person, like her taking U19 promise seriously we the audience would know Bra's isn't pure evil. At the same time she isn't pure good either since Babidi could take possession of her. It showed us Bra is more complicated than we first thought and gives her I think a interesting journey in DBM.
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Post by squirz96 on Jul 8, 2021 17:40:13 GMT
@lurking
Where is Bulma?
I would completely change father-daughter dynamic. I would make their relationship to seem distant from get go. U16 separation from U18 was basically introduced with both of them. A powerful father and his best "pupil." I can't remember if she fought before or after Broly vs Vegetto. If I am not mistaken it was after. I would introduce her during one of those. She would have been inside apartament whole time. This would make her look distant from others and a little bit cold. First round she basically does not exist and is a side character. I would also swipe U16 Pan with U18 to be killed in the first round. Honestly, U18 does not feel like main universe. Main plot points where heavily focused on U16. In second round arc I would make her a little bit more active. Maybe some images like her killing weakling participants. Or imagining snapping at her father. It would be inside her head. Her relationship with her father and brothers and of course her mother. It always bothers me that Bra simps always attack Vegetto but not Bulma. For me it seems that their relationship is devoid of anything and is nonexistent. Second round would end with U16 special from Vegetto's perspective of things while Third would be from Bra's perspective of things.
Edit: Additions. I would make U16 Trunks and Goten a little bit more mature then their U18 counterparts. Gotenks vs Gotenks was a fun thing but this could have been a moment where actual character differences could have been shown. I would completely wipe out Vegetto bad, Bra good narative. Perhaps change Gotenks post Majin Rebellion to be pure U16 Gotenks rather than a mixed version. And he would point out flaws of both rather then saying dad you are bad.
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Post by mbg on Jul 9, 2021 23:18:03 GMT
All the building blocks are already there for U16 Bra to be a good or even great character. Most of the issues I have is the execution of certain plot points with her. Family drama, insecurity of her place in her family, the obsession with strength, and her relationship with her brothers, etc, can all be used to tell a good story. U16 being a slightly darker and more messed up version of U18 was probably always part of the plan. That is a good way to go about it to distinguish U16 from U18. I even liked how Salagir decided to mine the Vegetto never defusing meant Vegeta never really got to come to terms with his issues with himself or Goku that might have had a negative impact on Vegetto's personality. Even all the focus on U16 and them seeming to be a better version of U18 only to show the glaring flaws with them that U18 got over or didn't have is cool idea to go with the story.
I don't really think Bra or even the story we have need major changes. I believe with some small adjustments that her character could work and still be a good guy. Bra going SS2 and accidentally hurting Vegetto and Gohan then instantly regretting it and thinking back to her losing control again was a good moment. That informed us so much about Bra's character. It showed us her flaws, some of her better qualities (regretting hurting her family), and showed consequences to her actions. Bra failing her test from Vegetto, but Vegetto allowing her to continue anyway is good story direction. It shows Vegetto isn't the best parent and he is unintentionally reinforcing Bra's bad habits, while at the same time I feel Bra losing it because her opponent making light of Pan's death creates is understandable to readers. Here is where small adjustment could be made. Instead of Bra coming back thinking she did all she could she could have been nervous she failed and would be forced to dropout of the tournament. Instead Vegetto told her she needs more work, but since she technically ended it in one strike and held back (her opponent's body was fully intact as opposed to being obliterated like what Gohan did to them as a kid), that she passed. Other characters like Gohan or Piccolo could mention how Vegetto's decision was questionable and how he is too easy going at times with Bra. That right there already sets the stage of Vegetto's parenting style reinforcing Bra's bad habits while showing Bra's own flaws.
The story could mostly stay the same with Bra up until her match with King Cold. I know some people didn't like how Bra mocked U19's problems or felt her trying to horn in on U18 goal of saving the universe was bad, but I think it works for her character. It shows Bra can be abrasive, but she also capable of having empathy for others. I think the biggest change I would make is I would have Bra flat out turn down King Cold's bet. I think a reason we got her to accept the bet was to give us good match and to show us how resourceful and pragmatic Bra can be, but it had the opposite effect for most fans. Whereas I feel like a good way to show Bra is more pragmatic than Goku or Vegeta would be to have her turn down the bet of not going Super Saiyan. It would show us even though Bra felt like she could probably win without that she didn't want to handicap herself just in case. Bra should mention how she cannot afford to be reckless because she promised U19 that if she wins she would use her wish to fix their planet. That would show readers that while Bra is a jerk that she took her promise to U19 seriously. We could have seen more of her better qualities. It would be a short fight still, but most people went in expecting it to be a short battle anyway.
The Majin Bra could have been played with her seemingly brutalizing her opponents at first, but either one of the Gohans or Piccolo notice it makes no sense for them to be alive since Bra could have killed them 10 times over. That would have let us know that some part of Bra is still fighting the control and her love for her family is still there. U16 Gohan could call out Bra on this fact, we see it shocks Bra, he challenges her to kill him. When Bra does kill Gohan she should be distressed and confused as to why she did it. Have her be conflicted the entire time. That way when U18 Bra confronts her U16 Bra's breakdown will feel more organic. The whole breaking out the Majin possession fully doesn't need to happen. The idea of U18 Bra getting through Bra did that job. The Majin possession did its job in showing Bra's existing character flaws and making her questioning herself. Lose the whole Vegetto will kill Bra angle altogether. It's not needed. Bra already showed she loves her family and doesn't want to hurt them. Bra being freed from possession and having to come to gripes that she killed Gohan while possessed. That would eat away at her more than anything Vegetto could do. It would be something Bra herself cannot pass blame to someone else. Since we already see past examples of Bra being a decent person, like her taking U19 promise seriously we the audience would know Bra's isn't pure evil. At the same time she isn't pure good either since Babidi could take possession of her. It showed us Bra is more complicated than we first thought and gives her I think a interesting journey in DBM. Honestly, I'd say that's the key problem with Bra. The story doesn't seem entirely clear on what her actual flaws and weaknesses are, and they seem to vary depending on where in the story she is. She can be an alarmingly skilled warrior with excellent technique who creates complex moves that other characters call out as unusual... or a berserker who can barely control her own strength, whose attacks cause massive collateral damage and whose Super Saiyan 2 is as wild as Gohan's once was. She can be a pampered princess, raised in the lap of luxury and sheltered from consequence, surrounded by admirers and doted on by her parents who often enable her worst habits... or an abuse survivor, who has had death threats hanging over her head practically since birth, who fears the other people in her life and desperately wants to be stronger mostly for the sake of survival, and whose only life seems to be endless combat training. She can be a fundamentally decent person, who is mostly crippled by personal doubts and a tendency to indulge in her worst habits and impulses but recognizes her faults and wants to change... or a complete psychopath who actively itches to murder decent people at the slightest provocation and who throws herself into the Majin transformation with complete gusto. Now, these things don't necessarily contradict each other; one might say the definition of a complex character is one that can't be easily fit into your average two-dimensional archetype. (For instance, one can have great technique and a tendency to lose control.) And none of these things, by themselves, are bad. The trouble is that instead of complexities and greater depth, they often come across as the story picking whatever would make Bra look best in that moment. She's murderous and cruel when the story needs her to be a badass psycho, but a damaged victim when the time comes for consequences. She's the beloved wunderkind when it's time for fluff, and the one crushed by pressure when she needs tragic justification. She's wild, reckless, and out-of-control when she needs to be shown as dangerous, and a master of technique and pragmatism when fighting someone on her level. What the story wants of Bra is for her to be a character capable of great good and great evil: a person who is well-meaning at her core, but waylaid by her neuroses into a darker path. The trouble is, we don't actually see many moments of Bra being an actual good person. Most of Bra's "good" actions feel more like things expected of her, and she often has to have her arm twisted into doing the right thing. Meanwhile, we have a lot more moments of Bra either being a huge jerk, or flat-out villainous. She does seem to have a sense of empathy, but anyone would feel sad and angry to see their beloved little quarter-niece be brutally killed, or accidentally harm her surrogate father figures. So the scales don't feel well-balanced. I mean, hell, look at the whole Majin Bra thing. The whole idea of it is that Babidi is tapping into that bad side of her, the side that just wants to crush everyone who wronged her, in the same way he did with Vegeta. But the thing is, Vegeta still kept some level of control in the whole thing, because there were lines he would not cross; he didn't try to kill Trunks and fell short of killing Goku, and he even recognized when Goku pointed it out that the world was in danger. Vegeta, a guy who once slaughtered an entire village of Namekians basically for the hell of it, when having his absolute darkest impulses pushed to the forefront, still recognized that he had loved ones and the safety of them and the Earth was more important than his dick-measuring contest. It takes a bit of arguing, sure, but he still does it. Now, one can play this as a case of Vegeta having a stronger will and moral compass, but the fact is, Bra absolutely did not display any real doubt about her actions, and seemed to take active pleasure in butchering as many people as possible, including--hell, especially her loved ones. And the result is that while Vegeta displayed a clear arc of "starts bad, becomes less bad, goes back to good", Bra just kind of... stays bad, until she needs to be good, at which she becomes good.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jul 19, 2021 23:47:52 GMT
I agree with a lot of what yinz said. and I like her character.
I'd probably have her act less like vegeta. she's too similar and have none of the compelling back ground he has. I might have had her character more stoic and cool, like trunks.
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Post by Shady Doorags on Jul 29, 2021 23:20:53 GMT
Believe it or not, I'd actually keep her toxic personality. I might even emphasize more on her bragging and cheating. But there are definite changes I would make.
1. I would either give her consequences or not put her in situations where it's important that she has them. Bra's major problem is that she has circumvented every consequence that has come her way within the story by either off camera shenanigans, everyone blaming someone else (all of chapter 79 is utter garbage), or the plot changing its mind. That is how a Mary Sue is made, when the consequences of their actions, if any, become moot or someone else's fault.
2. More interactions with Goku and Vegeta. Bra is missing Goku's good hearted nature and Vegeta's pride. Having her interact with them more would help to bring this out considering they are both technically her father, and in their universe, they became the strongest. Imagine the character interaction if both Vegeta and Goku openly stated how disappointed they were when Bra teleported her opponent away, maybe with Vegeta even outwardly calling her a coward. Then Bra looks to Vegetto for support, but he doesn't give her any because he feels the same way they do. They can voice a lot of things in a lot of different ways that Vegetto can't.
3. More emphasis with Gohan. Her interactions with her big brother have been mostly satisfactory, however, I would've included a universe with a more serious Gohan, either one where he never stopped training after Cell or one where he managed to defeat the androids with Trunks. Personality-wise, Gohan has the perfect protagonist personality and has the power to keep up with the best of the best. More interaction with a more serious version of him would help demonstrate to Bra where she's gone wrong since the comic showed earlier that Gohan could get through to her even when she got angry.
4. More interaction with Pan. There has not been nearly enough interaction between her and Pan and it has hindered any positive qualities we could've seen from Bra. We know effectively Bra and Pan are best friends, but we're almost never shown this. If Pan, a good natured character, can care about Bra as much as she does, there must be good qualities to her. Let us see them. These two could foil each other greatly, working together as a team, while demonstrating the difference each child takes their lessons: Bra focuses on the power and training while Pan is focused on saving people. They're both trained by Gohan and Vegetto, yet despite that, Bra mentally went down a completely different path.
5. Use another word other than "passive." This was Bra's breaking moment, the thing that was supposed to make her realize the errors of her ways. It's an extremely important detail yet it massively hurts her character just because of which word was chosen. "Weak" the most cliche word you can think of, would've been a better option.
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Post by supergojita3 on Jul 30, 2021 23:06:54 GMT
I think maybe actually have her cheat, and less with just "dishonorable" tactics that take advantage of the rules.
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Post by Dismaned on Aug 25, 2021 2:15:16 GMT
How would you do Bra? But she's only 16!
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Post by godjacob on Aug 25, 2021 2:46:12 GMT
Hahaha make your jokes now.
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