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Post by godjacob on Jul 24, 2021 8:09:05 GMT
Given the usual topics of DBM I've come to discover (And take part) I figure I'd take a snap with a topic that I hope is a bit more fresh for discourse. In specific, the topic of Pan and to be even more specific than that Universe 16's Pan.
Is it wrong to feel disappointed in how she has been presented?
U16 Pan is the daughter of a Gohan who never stopped training, one who maintained his Mystic spark and even managed to be considered on par with Base Vegito. The strongest guy in his universe. From a pure starting level, there should be really no inherent advantage to being born from Gohan vs. Vegito, and with how much of a monster prodigy Bra ended up being as well as Vegito being around to give a lesson or two to himself I expected Pan to be a bit of a powerhouse. After all even End of Z Pan born to a Gohan who had stopped fighting years ago was implied to be a prodigy and even a match for Base adult Goten.
Yet, I was kinda left flat with how she actually played out.
She cleared the bare minimum benchmark of being superior to GT Pan, being able to turn Super Saiyan and pressure Bojack into transforming. But after that, Bojack hilariously outclassed her killing her with sadistic ease and was even warned prior she was weaker than Bojack going into things.
And it was just, I almost said "that's it?" when it happened even if I sensed it was coming given the telegraph. But really? Just seems that, for the monster jump being born of an active Mystic Gohan on top of having him, Vegito and Bra around to learn from and/or spar with it seems Pan made like little to no gains. Even a weaker Pan from U18 born to a non-active Gohan was able to reach that SS "level." Bra was able to take on a Perfect Cell level foe in her base form as a contrast, and I just wonder how the gap between the two is really so monstrous. Feels like Pan was just kinda an afterthought compared to the power and skills Bra picked up, and this seemed to extend beyond just her power.
As a character, U16 Pan felt flat. She seems to solely exist to be one of the less moody members of U16, and most of all Bra's cheerleader with her idol worship of her being a defining character trait. Really her only character trait if we are to be honest, and being a satellite to another character just seems to be quite limiting. To the point where GT Pan feels like she has more individual agency, annoying as she was.
Now you might argue U16 Pan spent a significant portion of the story dead, and thus was in a static place beyond her control which would be a fair point. I am not trying to necessary put that against her, but rather just seem to be lamented that her purpose as a character when she was alive for 95% of her panel time was spent in the figurative shadow that was Bra, and nothing was done with it beyond making her a Bra supporter in that background. Her recent reaction to Bra does open up a possible new dynamic with the one she admired so much being flipped of rational (Yes it is rational Salagir) fear given what happened to her father at Bra's hands, but after years and years now it seems like too little too late for me.
Curious what you guys think on this.
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Post by عمار on Jul 24, 2021 19:21:07 GMT
She cleared the bare minimum benchmark of being superior to GT Pan, being able to turn Super Saiyan and pressure Bojack into transforming. But after that, Bojack hilariously outclassed her killing her with sadistic ease and was even warned prior she was weaker than Bojack going into things. And it was just, I almost said "that's it?" when it happened even if I sensed it was coming given the telegraph. Well, if it makes you feel better, she did put a fight in the novel. She fired a masenko, a kamehameha, and an improved version of hell zone. She even mange to landed few punches on Bojack when he let his guard down.    Here's the link of the chapter if you want to read it: linkBut really? Just seems that, for the monster jump being born of an active Mystic Gohan on top of having him, Vegito and Bra around to learn from and/or spar with it seems Pan made like little to no gains. Even a weaker Pan from U18 born to a non-active Gohan was able to reach that SS "level." Let's not forget that U16 Pan is still a lot stronger than her counterpart from U18. U16 Pan mastered SSJ & forced Bojack to transformed while U18 Pan admitted that she couldn't beat Kakarotto who is weaker than Bojack. So, I would say U18 Pan is <= to SSJ Goku when he was on namek, while U16 Pan is >= to SSJ Goku at the Cell Games. Bra was able to take on a Perfect Cell level foe in her base form as a contrast, and I just wonder how the gap between the two is really so monstrous. Feels like Pan was just kinda an afterthought compared to the power and skills Bra picked up, and this seemed to extend beyond just her power. Bra is the daughter of a fusion, while Pan is the daughter of a hyper saiyan. It makes sense that Bra's base is a tier above Pan's base. And I think you're underestimating how strong Bojack is when he transform. Bojack in his "base" form has managed to beat SSJ Vegeta easily in movie 9.  The fact that U16 Pan mange to beat him & forced him to transform is a huge achievement. When Bojack transform, he's at least a Perfect Cell level (before his suicide explosion) & in my opinion, he's stronger than Perfect Cell (before his suicide explosion). So, I don't consider losing to him a bad thing. If you want to kill Bojack, you must be a SSJ2 or stronger. And U16 Pan didn't achieve it. But the way I see it, it won't take her long to do that. As a character, U16 Pan felt flat. She seems to solely exist to be one of the less moody members of U16, and most of all Bra's cheerleader with her idol worship of her being a defining character trait. Really her only character trait if we are to be honest, and being a satellite to another character just seems to be quite limiting. To the point where GT Pan feels like she has more individual agency, annoying as she was. Now you might argue U16 Pan spent a significant portion of the story dead, and thus was in a static place beyond her control which would be a fair point. I am not trying to necessary put that against her, but rather just seem to be lamented that her purpose as a character when she was alive for 95% of her panel time was spent in the figurative shadow that was Bra, and nothing was done with it beyond making her a Bra supporter in that background. Her recent reaction to Bra does open up a possible new dynamic with the one she admired so much being flipped of rational (Yes it is rational Salagir) fear given what happened to her father at Bra's hands, but after years and years now it seems like too little too late for me. Curious what you guys think on this. There was nothing Salagir can do with her after she was eliminated from the tournament. Salagir could had made her stay with the non-participants when Babidi started his attack, but he has to think of a logical way to make her stay in the stadium. And the excuse that "She was in the apartment" was used for two characters (U18 Goten & U16 Bra). Although, I don't think people would mind if Salagir done that. So, I guess you could count that as a missed opportunity. The way I see it, her whole purpose was to show U18 Pan how much stronger she can be if she pushed herself even harder. Which is sad but what you can do. But there's also this, the story isn't finish yet. So, hopefully she will be more relevant to the plot in the future. |
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Post by godjacob on Jul 24, 2021 20:09:44 GMT
She cleared the bare minimum benchmark of being superior to GT Pan, being able to turn Super Saiyan and pressure Bojack into transforming. But after that, Bojack hilariously outclassed her killing her with sadistic ease and was even warned prior she was weaker than Bojack going into things. And it was just, I almost said "that's it?" when it happened even if I sensed it was coming given the telegraph. Well, if it makes you feel better, she did put a fight in the novel. She fired a masenko, a kamehameha, and an improved version of hell zone. She even mange to landed few punches on Bojack when he let his guard down. This would except how "canon" the novels are is at best unclear. Given they seem to contradict elements of the main comic, it counts to me about as much if say I made a fanfic of U16 Pan punching Bojack's rape face in. Only with a degree of more professionalism. But really? Just seems that, for the monster jump being born of an active Mystic Gohan on top of having him, Vegito and Bra around to learn from and/or spar with it seems Pan made like little to no gains. Even a weaker Pan from U18 born to a non-active Gohan was able to reach that SS "level." Let's not forget that U16 Pan is still a lot stronger than her counterpart from U18. U16 Pan mastered SSJ & forced Bojack to transformed while U18 Pan admitted that she couldn't beat Kakarotto who is weaker than Bojack. So, I would say U18 Pan is <= to SSJ Goku when he was on namek, while U16 Pan is >= to SSJ Goku at the Cell Games. Being stronger (Even a lot stronger) than U18 Pan is entirely expected of U16 Pan given her circumstances. It's similar to GT Pan being the low bar both should clear (Though ironically your calc makes U18 Pan weaker given GT Pan could restrain Dr. Gero.). It's more a much weaker Pan from much less favorable birth & training circumstances as far as power potential goes was able to cross the same transformation level as U16 Pan was more my point. It doesn't make U16 Pan feel far stronger or much of an improvement even if she is supposed to be. Bra was able to take on a Perfect Cell level foe in her base form as a contrast, and I just wonder how the gap between the two is really so monstrous. Feels like Pan was just kinda an afterthought compared to the power and skills Bra picked up, and this seemed to extend beyond just her power. Bra is the daughter of a fusion, while Pan is the daughter of a hyper saiyan. It makes sense that Bra's base is a tier above Pan's base. And I think you're underestimating how strong Bojack is when he transform. Bojack in his "base" form has managed to beat SSJ Vegeta easily in movie 9. The fact that U16 Pan mange to beat him & forced him to transform is a huge achievement. When Bojack transform, he's at least a Perfect Cell level (before his suicide explosion) & in my opinion, he's stronger than Perfect Cell (before his suicide explosion). So, I don't consider losing to him a bad thing. If you want to kill Bojack, you must be a SSJ2 or stronger. And U16 Pan didn't achieve it. But the way I see it, it won't take her long to do that. Except that Hyper Saiyan and that Fusion have similar "base" levels, so being born to one or the other shouldn't be this much of a stark contrast as it is. Which is my area of concern as much as anything. It's one thing for Bra's base to be higher than Pan's, but for Pan at her absolute best to die casually to a Perfect Cell tier foe while Bra's base power overcomes and defeats it paints a far more vast gap between them. I am not saying Bojack is weak, or dying to him as that much of a shame in a vacuum. Bojack may be a boring flat villain but he is powerful, it's just I feel Pan at her best should at this point be at or beyond Cell Level foes. Not only given who her father is, but the fact she has both Bra and Vegito to spar and train with yet she seems to have quite the low ceiling for what she could and I argue she should be. As a character, U16 Pan felt flat. She seems to solely exist to be one of the less moody members of U16, and most of all Bra's cheerleader with her idol worship of her being a defining character trait. Really her only character trait if we are to be honest, and being a satellite to another character just seems to be quite limiting. To the point where GT Pan feels like she has more individual agency, annoying as she was. Now you might argue U16 Pan spent a significant portion of the story dead, and thus was in a static place beyond her control which would be a fair point. I am not trying to necessary put that against her, but rather just seem to be lamented that her purpose as a character when she was alive for 95% of her panel time was spent in the figurative shadow that was Bra, and nothing was done with it beyond making her a Bra supporter in that background. Her recent reaction to Bra does open up a possible new dynamic with the one she admired so much being flipped of rational (Yes it is rational Salagir) fear given what happened to her father at Bra's hands, but after years and years now it seems like too little too late for me. Curious what you guys think on this. There was nothing Salagir can do with her after she was eliminated from the tournament. Salagir could had made her stay with the non-participants when Babidi started his attack, but he has to think of a logical way to make her stay in the stadium. And the excuse that "She was in the apartment" was used for two characters (U18 Goten & U16 Bra). Although, I don't think people would mind if Salagir done that. So, I guess you could count that as a miss opportunity. The way I see it, her whole purpose was to show U18 Pan how much stronger she can be if she pushed herself even harder. Which is sad but what you can do. But there's also this, the story isn't finish yet. So, hopefully she will be more relevant to the plot in the future. I like how you ask what you could've done but then answer your own question. Having U16 Pan around Bra in the apartment wouldn't be the most far fetched bit of that arc, and having her react possibly have to fight her idol could've been an excellent bit of characterization for her. Actually drive an arc of her own, rather than just have her exist for other characters in Bra and U18 Pan. So I would clearly call that a missed opportunity. Indeed, but "wait and see what happens" is a bit of DBM that I am skeptical on with a few elements. But it is all that can be done at this point. |
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Post by Son Pan on Jul 31, 2021 6:22:55 GMT
Where the story is at right now I think U16 Pan just wasn't meant to be a main character in the story itself and her role was to move the story for others through her death. Her death introduced darker elements into the story and impacted U16 and U18. U18 Pan's character development started after she saw her stronger counterpart was killed off so unceremoniously. I understand finding U16 Pan's inclusion to be disappointing since she was killed off to move the story along. Her character could have been bigger and used more, but at the same time I'm satisfied with how DBM used her. In the series where a common criticism is that since they can undo death it has no consequences that DBM continued what Toriyama did by finding ways to have death we know will be undone can still have emotional impact on characters and still have some weight. U16 Pan being dead for as long as she was helped make her death have a bigger impact on the story.
I liked what we got with the story. It showed both Gohans being awesome. U16 Gohan flexing to calm Bra down and urging her and Vegetto to not do anything that could get their universe kicked out before Pan can be wished back to life. U18 Gohan making a secret deal with U13 to keep them from using lethal force was one of my favorite scenes. U18 Pan character development was nicely done. I can understand why people would be annoyed U16 Pan only being important because of her death instead of getting a more meaty role to show off her character or power more. I think choosing U16 Pan to be the protagonist to die to move things along was a good choice. U16 Pan was so good spirited that her death would make readers feel something. In this instance I think the writing took advantage of U16 and U18 being near identical in a good way. Since the two Pans being as similar as they were personality wise allows the writer to cheat a little and use how U18 Pan's introduction and interactions at the start of the story help us to get to know both Pans so when the time comes for U16 Pan's death it feels like we lost the character we were introduced to at the start of the story.
I can see why Salagir chose to kill off U16 Pan. The decision for me doesn't hurt the story or cause too many headaches like some other decision the story has made.
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Post by Blaze on Aug 2, 2021 10:24:42 GMT
Both Gohans are equal in strength and ability and so on. Also, I think Pan being stronger than Goten was filler? Not sure. Anyway, I don't see an issue with Pan's strength. She's born to Mystic Gohan, but Mystic Gohan is basically SSj3 Gohan. If you compare base to theoretical base, I don't think 'base' Gohan would be *that* much stronger than Buu Arc base Goku. And Pan is also a quarter saiyan, which could have an impact.
I do hope Pan has more going for her as the story continues. Something that shows her agency (which the tournament itself doesn't allow much of).
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Post by godjacob on Aug 10, 2021 18:16:29 GMT
Where the story is at right now I think U16 Pan just wasn't meant to be a main character in the story itself and her role was to move the story for others through her death. Her death introduced darker elements into the story and impacted U16 and U18. U18 Pan's character development started after she saw her stronger counterpart was killed off so unceremoniously. I understand finding U16 Pan's inclusion to be disappointing since she was killed off to move the story along. Her character could have been bigger and used more, but at the same time I'm satisfied with how DBM used her. In the series where a common criticism is that since they can undo death it has no consequences that DBM continued what Toriyama did by finding ways to have death we know will be undone can still have emotional impact on characters and still have some weight. U16 Pan being dead for as long as she was helped make her death have a bigger impact on the story.
I liked what we got with the story. It showed both Gohans being awesome. U16 Gohan flexing to calm Bra down and urging her and Vegetto to not do anything that could get their universe kicked out before Pan can be wished back to life. U18 Gohan making a secret deal with U13 to keep them from using lethal force was one of my favorite scenes. U18 Pan character development was nicely done. I can understand why people would be annoyed U16 Pan only being important because of her death instead of getting a more meaty role to show off her character or power more. I think choosing U16 Pan to be the protagonist to die to move things along was a good choice. U16 Pan was so good spirited that her death would make readers feel something. In this instance I think the writing took advantage of U16 and U18 being near identical in a good way. Since the two Pans being as similar as they were personality wise allows the writer to cheat a little and use how U18 Pan's introduction and interactions at the start of the story help us to get to know both Pans so when the time comes for U16 Pan's death it feels like we lost the character we were introduced to at the start of the story.
I can see why Salagir chose to kill off U16 Pan. The decision for me doesn't hurt the story or cause too many headaches like some other decision the story has made.
See the issue is, U16 Pan didn't stay dead. She came back to life, so clearly she was meant to serve than more as a sad death and motivation for other characters (Which is an issue for me in it of itself) yet has been largely Inconsequential even with the focus U16 has gotten compared to other universes. So there should've been a little more to her than just the tragic death character since well she is still around the living today. |
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Post by Ultimate Perfection on Aug 11, 2021 1:51:51 GMT
Maybe there could be a further development of U16 Pan after the whole Majin Bra debacle? She was extremely upset to learn about Bra killing Gohan in cold blood, and she still has yet to forgive her for doing it. It would at least serve as a catalyst for Pan to train harder than ever before and achieve SSJ2. I'm not sure at what level of mastery Pan has of SSJ1, but she had enough power to overpower base Bojack so she is probably a bit higher than SSJ1 Cell Games Gohan at the very least.
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Post by Son Pan on Aug 11, 2021 4:16:35 GMT
Where the story is at right now I think U16 Pan just wasn't meant to be a main character in the story itself and her role was to move the story for others through her death. Her death introduced darker elements into the story and impacted U16 and U18. U18 Pan's character development started after she saw her stronger counterpart was killed off so unceremoniously. I understand finding U16 Pan's inclusion to be disappointing since she was killed off to move the story along. Her character could have been bigger and used more, but at the same time I'm satisfied with how DBM used her. In the series where a common criticism is that since they can undo death it has no consequences that DBM continued what Toriyama did by finding ways to have death we know will be undone can still have emotional impact on characters and still have some weight. U16 Pan being dead for as long as she was helped make her death have a bigger impact on the story.
I liked what we got with the story. It showed both Gohans being awesome. U16 Gohan flexing to calm Bra down and urging her and Vegetto to not do anything that could get their universe kicked out before Pan can be wished back to life. U18 Gohan making a secret deal with U13 to keep them from using lethal force was one of my favorite scenes. U18 Pan character development was nicely done. I can understand why people would be annoyed U16 Pan only being important because of her death instead of getting a more meaty role to show off her character or power more. I think choosing U16 Pan to be the protagonist to die to move things along was a good choice. U16 Pan was so good spirited that her death would make readers feel something. In this instance I think the writing took advantage of U16 and U18 being near identical in a good way. Since the two Pans being as similar as they were personality wise allows the writer to cheat a little and use how U18 Pan's introduction and interactions at the start of the story help us to get to know both Pans so when the time comes for U16 Pan's death it feels like we lost the character we were introduced to at the start of the story.
I can see why Salagir chose to kill off U16 Pan. The decision for me doesn't hurt the story or cause too many headaches like some other decision the story has made.
See the issue is, U16 Pan didn't stay dead. She came back to life, so clearly she was meant to serve than more as a sad death and motivation for other characters (Which is an issue for me in it of itself) yet has been largely Inconsequential even with the focus U16 has gotten compared to other universes. So there should've been a little more to her than just the tragic death character since well she is still around the living today. I meant more of from what the story has given us so far that I don't think U16 Pan was meant to be one of the leading characters not that I don't think U16 Pan's whole story for DBM will be to just die. I should have made that clearer.
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