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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Sept 26, 2021 4:20:20 GMT
So I’ll start off by saying that big green Gast is an awesome idea and a great concept by Salagir. The idea of all the remaining Namekians fusing as a last resort to stop Freeza makes sense and leaves a potential chance for said Super Namekian to reach the heights of the likes of Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and maybe even fusions if we go off of how much piccolo was able to increase in power after his mergers.
What confuses me and if anyone can answer I’m all ears is where the hell he is power wise? I know he has learned all sorts of vague magic from traveling around the universe as seen from his specials, not to mention how well versed he should be in Namekian magic with all of the minds he has fused into himself. Though I think his most recent magic showing was a little much. My theory to make it not so OP being that he can only use that ability that he pulled on Vegetto on transformations like SSJ3, where the user has a hard time maintaining it normally even without his magic meddling because of the energy drain/strain on the body. This making them susceptible to his spell and him being able to just “turn off” their transformation, (so for example it wouldn’t have worked on a SSJ2 Vegetto).
So my question is during his fight with Rachi and when he was duking it out with U13 SSJ3 ghost Vegeta, they both seemed about even right? Be kinda disappointed if Gast really does just max out at a fresh SSJ3, though I suppose a ghost version of a new SSJ3 may be somewhat stronger with how they’re designed. Seems like a really stupid time for him to hold back though if that’s the only excuse for it.
Ghost Broly of course jumps in as everyone knows. How strong was this Broly supposed to be? Was he maybe around SSJ2 levels like the initial Broly we know was or at SSJ3+ levels? Only reason I ask this is because when Gast coldcocks Broly he doesn’t even budge and it ends with Gast hurting his hand and looking foolish. Vegetto making the obvious statement that it was due to Brolys invincibility. But as we saw in other fights with him in this comic he’s still able to be smacked around it just doesn’t do any real damage. It’s not until his power grows and he surpasses whoever he’s fighting that the typical “I can take a punch to the face while smiling and not moving” thing kicks in. So why wasn’t Gast able to budge ghost Broly? Was he just actually stronger than him? Though it would seem odd why Rachi didn’t use Broly at that level in his fight with U13 Vegeta if that was the case. Or is this just a possible oversight/plot hole?
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Post by godjacob on Sept 26, 2021 6:34:21 GMT
The real answer is as powerful as Salagir feels like making him in the moment.
Early on he was implied to be in the tier of Vegito and Zen Buu (Easily stopping Buu's rampage, being causal the longest during the Broly vs. Vegito fight etc.) only for his fight with Dr. Raichi to seemingly expose him as being SSj3 Tier with Ghost Vegeta beating Gast's face in with Broly providing some assistance. With Gast being screwed until Broly decided to go a wall giving him an opening to destroy the Hatchiyack machine. Then his magic power is enough to stop an enraged Vegito at the end of the Majin Rebellion Arc. There is an utter lack of consistency with him which makes him come off more as a plot device rather than an organic character.
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Post by Skarr on Sept 26, 2021 12:35:29 GMT
Gast's power was a mystery early on. He was confirmed at least SSJ3 tier since Nail said he defeated a pink demon in his universe but weaker than SSJ2 Vegetto since he was sweating when Vegetto used that form. SSJ3 to SSJ1 Vegetto tier is a big range so maybe they left it vague because they weren't sure how strong he'll be. The only other hint I remember is that him and Cell reacted at the same time to Ultimate Gohan powering up so maybe that was implying Cell and Gast were close in power. So why wasn’t Gast able to budge ghost Broly? Was he just actually stronger than him? Though it would seem odd why Rachi didn’t use Broly at that level in his fight with U13 Vegeta if that was the case. Or is this just a possible oversight/plot hole? I think it might've been an oversight because Broly didn't use LSSJ much in U3 so he shouldn't be much stronger than his first or second movie LSSJ. I guess it depends if Raichi used Broly to attack Planet Vegeta since he could've remained in LSSJ longer then but I'm not sure if the ghost would "save" that increase. U13 Vegeta made sure to kill Broly before he transformed into LSSJ while I think it only worked against Gast because he was distracted by SSJ3 Vegeta. |
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Sept 26, 2021 17:24:51 GMT
Gast's power was a mystery early on. He was confirmed at least SSJ3 tier since Nail said he defeated a pink demon in his universe but weaker than SSJ2 Vegetto since he was sweating when Vegetto used that form. SSJ3 to SSJ1 Vegetto tier is a big range so maybe they left it vague because they weren't sure how strong he'll be. The only other hint I remember is that him and Cell reacted at the same time to Ultimate Gohan powering up so maybe that was implying Cell and Gast were close in power. So why wasn’t Gast able to budge ghost Broly? Was he just actually stronger than him? Though it would seem odd why Rachi didn’t use Broly at that level in his fight with U13 Vegeta if that was the case. Or is this just a possible oversight/plot hole? I think it might've been an oversight because Broly didn't use LSSJ much in U3 so he shouldn't be much stronger than his first or second movie LSSJ. I guess it depends if Raichi used Broly to attack Planet Vegeta since he could've remained in LSSJ longer then but I'm not sure if the ghost would "save" that increase. U13 Vegeta made sure to kill Broly before he transformed into LSSJ while I think it only worked against Gast because he was distracted by SSJ3 Vegeta. Hmm figured as much, I do remember most of what you’re saying and how Gast has changed over the years from where Salagir may have originally had him. Though the old theory of him being SSJ1 Vegetto tier may have just been fan speculation all along, but as you said there did seem to be hints from him dropped at times when some characters did power up. I say this though because I swore I remember reading somewhere that Salagir originally had him as even weaker than SSJ3? But only buffed him up after his team told him that would be much too low for the fused Namekian. That could hold some in-site on where he is now power wise. Salagir maybe didn’t take his actual power level that serious or make it that high because he was more so focused on his ridiculous magic abilities and making that his main power source and a counter to the typical “I can punch harder than you so I win” mentally that most of the powerful warriors have in DB. Though I’d rather had him closer in power to at least SSJ1 Vegetto so they could actually fight without any asspulls. With his powerful magic somewhat closing the gap between them and maybe keeping Vegetto from accessing and using SSJ3 as a last resort “I win” trump card like he did against Broly. That being because it’s still hard for him to maintain for more than a few seconds apparently, making it susceptible to Gasts magic as I mention earlier. This still fitting with what he did to Vegetto after the Majin debacle. That said i’d also tone down his OP magic a bit as well so it doesn’t seem so random and powerful for plots sake with it having some drawbacks. Like only being able to affect beings that are above Gast in certain situations. Such as Buu being so spread out like he was during his freak out/take over, making what Gast did to him possible. Though the juries still out if he let Gast do that to him or not and of course being able to cancel unstable transformations like SSJ3 with whatever spell/ability he used as I already touched on. (Or maybe all transformations if they’re far enough below him in power as well and that just being the case for stronger beings like Vegetto). This would make his upcoming fight with Bra more exiting because now that she supposedly has “control” of SSJ2 he shouldn’t be able to just turn it off. That’d make their fight way less anticlimactic IMO then if he could just cancel her SSJ2 at anytime and possibly win when ever he wanted. That is unless Salagir does address that issue before their fight happens but as of now he doesn’t give much explanation on how it straight up canceled a raging SSJ3 Vegetto completely. Maybe it’s some bs about emotion that allows him to do it, and that could line up with how Babidis magic at times does technology target emotion in a way when he manipulates and takes over his Majins. Hope Salagir doesn’t go that way with it though. Or he could just leave it vague and go with its magic don’t overthink it approach, like he’s done a bit with Zen Buu. Hopefully not but would be a very Toriyama thing to do. I mean it was pretty vague at times in the official series and for as much flak as Babidi gets for being incompetent, the wizard did seem to still be very well versed in magic. As he should be, being possibly millions of years old after all. Babidis spell casting has pulled off some decent feats but when faced with someone as strong as Piccolo his magic did next to nothing (though this could have been anime filler so correct me if I’m wrong). I’m all for magic having more of a role and finally getting some of the spot light in this series but some basic explanations eventually would be nice. Just so it doesn’t seem so overpowered for the sake of moving the plot along or just some random OP abilities being pulled out of nowhere (this goes for Zen Buu as well). As a side note for Broly, I don’t mind Salagirs take on him but it’s too much. He could have kept his invincibility ability but have it only come into play if he’s at the same level or stronger than who he’s fighting. That way he’s still a real threat because his power slowly increases in LSSJ and once he surpasses you you’re fucked. That is unless you can shock him out of it somehow. But even while in his LSSJ form, if he’s currently weaker you’ve got a shot at hurting or even killing him before his power catches up to you. And don’t even get me started on the horrendous ending we got for that last Broly special with “Z” Buu. |
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Post by Skarr on Sept 26, 2021 21:30:51 GMT
Though I’d rather had him closer in power to at least SSJ1 Vegetto so they could actually fight without any asspulls and tone down his OP magic a bit so it doesn’t seem so random and powerful for plot reasons only. This would make his upcoming fight with Bra more exiting too. Sense Salagir doesn’t give much explanation on his current over the top magic this would have been better IMO. I mean for as much flak as Babidi gets for being incompetent, the wizard did seem to still be very well versed in magic. As he should be, being possibly millions of years old after all. Babidis spell casting has pulled off some decent feats but when faced with someone as strong as Piccolo his magic did next to nothing (though this could have been anime filler so correct me if I’m wrong). Babidi didn't put up a shield in the manga so maybe he didn't have anything that could defend against Piccolo. Yeah I wish Gast was at least SSJ1 Vegetto tier. I don't think it would be that farfetched since he's the fusion of ~100 Nameks. I wouldn't mind if they said he was holding back against Raichi to test out his strongest ghosts and revealed to be more powerful later. I think his ability might be based on another anime since they usually have more variety than DB in terms of abilities and techniques. In DB, they still had to be somewhat close to their opponent for their ability to make a difference so Gast being +SSJ Vegetto tier would've made more sense. He's still at least that level in my Gast & Palz  . Yeah I wasn't a fan of Broly's invincibility and I think just extra durability in LSSJ would've been enough. I assume the only reason Broly was given invincibility was so he could survive long enough in U20 to join the tournament since he was immediately sent home after "losing" his first battle. I'm working on my own recut of DBM which minor changes and in that version Broly dies from Vegetto's Dragon Flash. He's resurrected later along with the other dead contestants then immediately sent home before he could transform. |
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Post by maximusthered2431 on Sept 27, 2021 2:04:55 GMT
It's definitely not always consistent but like to think the novel is the most accurate. First it described SSJ3 Vegeta vs Gast as a similar battle to Gohan vs Gotenks Buu www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/fanfic_dbm_en/chapter-139.html#h_readThen it seemed to describe Hatchayk as "not envying SSJ1 Veggito". www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/fanfic_dbm_en/chapter-140.html#h_readLater at the end of the fight when Gast wins its described as using "200%" of his own power reserves to win. www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/fanfic_dbm_en/chapter-140.html#h_readSo in my opinion/head cannon. It currently is laid out like this. Gast reserved/small aura: SS2 tier (Struggled slightly hand to hand against Cell Jr) Gast fighting serious/full power?: Mystic Gohan to Super Gotenks Buu Tier (Based on the novel description. And being able to slightly over power SSJ3 Vegeta) Gast limit breaking attack: SSJ1 Veggito Tier (Impressive. But only works when you have the time to power up and your enemy stands still. So not that useful in a serious fight with a smart opponent. But it is cool he can generate a Veggito level attack. And he needed it to kill Hatchyak!) Meanwhile his magic seems to be able to affect opponents SSJ3 Veggito tier. My guess is the only ones with better magic are U2 and XXI. Again, just my head cannon because the novel doesn't always match with the comic. But it makes the most sense to me. |
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Post by Super-dee-Duper Veku on Sept 27, 2021 2:17:13 GMT
Though I’d rather had him closer in power to at least SSJ1 Vegetto so they could actually fight without any asspulls and tone down his OP magic a bit so it doesn’t seem so random and powerful for plot reasons only. This would make his upcoming fight with Bra more exiting too. Sense Salagir doesn’t give much explanation on his current over the top magic this would have been better IMO. I mean for as much flak as Babidi gets for being incompetent, the wizard did seem to still be very well versed in magic. As he should be, being possibly millions of years old after all. Babidis spell casting has pulled off some decent feats but when faced with someone as strong as Piccolo his magic did next to nothing (though this could have been anime filler so correct me if I’m wrong). Babidi didn't put up a shield in the manga so maybe he didn't have anything that could defend against Piccolo. Yeah I wish Gast was at least SSJ1 Vegetto tier. I don't think it would be that farfetched since he's the fusion of ~100 Nameks. I wouldn't mind if they said he was holding back against Raichi to test out his strongest ghosts and revealed to be more powerful later. I think his ability might be based on another anime since they usually have more variety than DB in terms of abilities and techniques. In DB, they still had to be somewhat close to their opponent for their ability to make a difference so Gast being +SSJ Vegetto tier would've made more sense. He's still at least that level in my Gast & Palz . Yeah I wasn't a fan of Broly's invincibility and I think just extra durability in LSSJ would've been enough. I assume the only reason Broly was given invincibility was so he could survive long enough in U20 to join the tournament since he was immediately sent home after "losing" his first battle. I'm working on my own recut of DBM which minor changes and in that version Broly dies from Vegetto's Dragon Flash. He's resurrected later along with the other dead contestants then immediately sent home before he could transform. I could see that being the case, I was pretty underwhelmed with his fight with Raichi. Pretty dumb for him to hold back if that’s the excuse we get but they do it in DBS all the time now so maybe Salagirs taking a page out of their book while he makes up his mind about how strong Gast really is before his next fight ha. For real though that many Namekians together should make somebody pretty damn amazing and magical, no pun intended. Almost enough so that you might have to nerf him IMO. Most of the Namekians may have been somewhat weak overall but damn that’s a lot of bodies. I know Piccolo may be considered a special case but I always felt like besides the substantial increase in power he got from a merger, the real bonus in power from Namekian fusion came from the new potential increase it seemed to give them. Being as Piccolo is our only example unfortunately and his first merger shot him up to Freezas 2nd form levels, from what should have been piss weak when he first got to Namek. (Though I know Toriyama gave a few crazy increases out in that saga so this could have been another example) and with Nails comments about him being impressive I’m leaning more towards it being the latter but can’t say for sure. This was definitely a large increase but in the next few years he managed to train and increase in power to possibly being comparable to original form Freeza imo. If him being compared to the early SSJs is anything to go off of anyway. He was still clearly weaker than them but the point being he was at least in their ball park for such a comparison and with how he handled #20. Following that and his merger with Kami, it could be argued that his main increase came from the fact he was “whole” again but regardless he went from surpassing the early SSJs to being possibly around semi perfect Cell or higher. Seeing as he didn’t immediately get murdered by the Cell Jrs and from comments made after he came out of the HBTC from what I remember. This all looks low and is outshined because of the Super Saiyans large increases in that saga but its still head and shoulders above the rest of the cast. Could chalk this up to just Piccolo being able to naturally improve like everyone else I suppose but I like to think a big part of it was because of his merger basically raising his “power ceiling” if you will, increasing his limits and allowing him to grow stronger than what was previously possible for him. So if this was actually the case and applied to Gast. After training over the years he’d be a god damn beast and should be approaching Vegetto in power at the very least for sure. But went back and edited my last comment, added a bit more about where I’d think a good spot for his magic abilities would be. Bad habit of mine ha I get a bit wordy sometimes. Yeah him not being able to survive without oxygen indefinitely or whatever the hell the case is now is just too ridiculous for me. I know this technically is nothing new with that having to be the case for him to survive being frozen like he was but I could ignore that easier because it wasn’t focused on much before the fight started so I didn’t dwell on it for long. But him being shown to now survive black holes and outer space indefinitely because reasons and some ever changing invincibility conditions boiling down to I can’t die from anything now, asphyxiation included. Just too much and in your face about how maximum he is. Harder pill to swallow I guess and just comes off as bad old fan fiction wank. Doesn’t help that Salagir just seems to make him even more OP every time he makes an appearance. Also hearing the characters gush and say the same “it’s all over nothing can stop the Broly” doomsday shit gets to be a bit old too. As for the air thing, I could see him lasting for quite awhile and maybe even longer than most other characters, the guys obviously got some killer lungs with how much he screams. Or even using some sort of Ki shield or barrier to maybe trap air to survive for awhile like what was shown with Bras barrier that she put around Babadi in space. Also get that it makes more sense that we’d get the crazy Kakarotto screaming version of him after all the shit he’s been through. Possibly being extra brain dead because of being trapped airless in ice for so long but man I wish Salagir would have went with his movie 1 personality. At least the guy had more then a one word vocabulary in his first showing. Dunno why his second coming version caught the traction it did and always seems to be the one used in fan fictions. There’s potential for some decent writing there with his dad being the controlling abusive scumbag he was and also probably lying to him for most of his life. Not to mention what is implied to be some serious mental abuse Broly could have went through growing up and a frickin mind control device to top it all off. How that all could have affected him and his way of thinking could have been a big part of his story besides just being crazy from being LSSJ. People tend to love a tragic character with a rough back story after all. He’d still be his normal physco killing self of course but just less one dimensional. There’s lots more to work with there than most writers typically do with Broly. Gast & Palz? I thought that was you. Good stuff man I remember reading that years back and getting a good laugh out of it. Recut for DBM sounds interesting, curious to see what all you come up with. |
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Post by Son Pan on Sept 27, 2021 5:10:06 GMT
Gast's exact power might be hard to determine because Salagir might not have known exactly how strong he wanted him to be when the comic started. It is not uncommon for writers, professional or fans, to not have every detail of their story planned out. Sometimes they leave things vague to expand on later. Gast might have been imagined to be a character comparable to at least SS1 Vegetto like U4 Buu or U20 Broly. It was mentioned he was one of the characters that wasn't as phased by SS1 Vegetto and Broly fight like the other characters. It was determined that Gast defeated Freeza, green monster and pink demon, at least suggesting he defeated Cell and Majin Buu of U7. As the comic has gone on it might have been decided that making Gast that strong would be too much, so the battle with U3 Raichi was used to scale him back some. I do think there is still wiggle room to reveal Gast was holding back his power like he did with U3 Piccolo. When Gast was first born we know he was at least on par with Android 16 or a little stronger, since he killed King Cold in his true form. Perhaps Salagir rethought at how strong Gast would get through training on his own. He might have found it hard to see how a warrior with an initial power of 16 going to SS1 Vegetto through training might have been far fetched.
I could see Gast being comparable to Mystic Gohan or stronger than him, but has honed his magical abilities to the point that he can fight above his weight class. Gast having an ability or spell that can cancel out Vegetto's SS3 form. He had a spell/ability that could pull all of Buu's pieces and seal him into ball form. Gast might be imagined to be extremely powerful warrior with great magical abilities. DBM at least tries to bring back skill, abilities, and unique powers to the series after Z discarded it to make all about power levels. U9 and U19 are great examples of fighters with less raw power, but used skill, tactics, and powerful weaponry to defeat the same enemies that main DB universe needed Super Saiyans to beat with raw power.
I wouldn't oppose if Gast wasn't exactly on SS1 Vegetto's level if his other abilities are used to great effect and can defeat stronger enemies. I also wouldn't have opposed to Gast being on par with SS1 Vegetto either though.
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