I Like SSJ3 In DBM, But What Would You Do With It?

Old Kai said it was releasing his potential beyond his limits. It was assumed that was at least near his limit since it boosted his power to above a SSJ3 which was the final transformation in the manga. There was definitely diminishing returns for each form until a new form was unlocked so it would've applied to SSJ3 and Ultimate Gohan eventually.

Well it's a central theme of most shonen but they still have diminishing returns if it's a series with multiple transformations. Buu saga implied Goku and Vegeta only surpassed Teen Gohan in SSJ2 and BoG has base Goku weaker than Freeza. Goku unlocked multiple transformations in DBS and I don't think anyone is expecting him to surpass Beerus with anything below his strongest form.

The humans are still weaker than the base Saiyans. I'm not sure how it's a reach when it's going by how the series presents transformations. You could still believe he can get stronger but there's going to be diminishing returns like with every transformation at some point unless you're arguing he'll surpass GoDs and all the beings above them. The disagreement is when those diminishing returns kick in.

We don't know how strong Toriyama intended for Gohan to be in the ToP since it varied in both versions. Super Hero has him regain Ultimate and it might only be as powerful as before. I'm curious how you define "diminishing returns" because you're basically describing it. Goku and Vegeta needing new transformations as a way of getting vastly stronger because previous forms slow down in growth is literally what it means. I gave a few examples since Goku and Vegeta were only confirmed to have surpassed SSJ2 Teen Gohan when they went SSJ2 and base Goku was still weaker than Freeza.

This isn't specific to DBM since you'll find the same argument of diminishing returns in any DB forum going back decades. There's a theory for GT that Gohan could only reach SSJ4 Goku's power if he regrows his tail and achieves the form himself as in regular training would only get him so far. When fans believe Goku will only surpass Beerus with a fully mastered UI, it's because his previous forms had diminishing returns and he needed to unlock and master new forms to get to that level.

Surpassing Raditz doesn't mean they'll continue getting stronger without limit since they were still weaker than the base Saiyans now. Tien declined using the HTC and Krillin was glad the kids couldn't compete because it would give him a better chance of winning any prize money in the Buu saga. You were using manga or anime only scenes but I was arguing what Toriyama has done based on what we know he wrote himself.

I think you're still missing my point. You're claiming there's no cap to previous forms but that seems to be the only way they've unlocked new forms with training alone and how the story usually only noted the growth of their highest form. In your opinion, do you think Goku will surpass Beerus in any form besides UI? That would help me understand your view. If you believe there's no cap at all in any form, he should be able to surpass Beerus or anyone above him eventually in only base.

Well I don't expect you to agree with any fan theory DBM went with. In old discussions about Ultimate Gohan unrelated to any fanfic, some fans believed the same thing that Gohan wouldn't get drastically stronger unless another form was introduced in the series. This was all based on how transformations were handled in manga but it's fine if you interpreted it differently. You'll hear it in DBS discussions since some predicting Goku will max out as stronger than Beerus but that no mortal can surpass the Angels. What you described about base surpassing Beerus is still example of diminishing returns since even in this hypothetical example he's not reaching it within his lifetime.

Ooooh boy do I have thoughts related to this discussion. But firstly:
Don't see any implication that Gohan could never become stronger. But it was implied that he couldn't turn it off. He still has the form straight after he's brought back to life and iirc after he's taken out of Buu as well. It was intended to be a permanent change. At the time at least, seems to have been retconned by Toriyama (or just Toei?) in Super.

Now, Dragon Ball often does have characters reaching limits and then just smashing through those. But there's usually some sort of impetus to break through those limits. Like, an alien of incredible strength showing up out of nowhere. Or drinking poison. Or androids causing the saiyans to try to reach beyond Super Saiyan. Now, arguably the Buu Arc was implying that they've gotten so powerful that they were reaching the limits of what was reasonable. As Skarr's mentioned, Goku only barely surpassed Cell Arc Gohan in his SSj2 form. And to go past that, he required the ridiculous SSj3 transformation which was unsustainable. And then you had fusion acting as another way to break past limits. And finally Gohan's latent potential being fully revealed.

I think without some sort of new transformation or threat or whatever, it makes sense that the characters would all end up around the high Buu Arc levels of strength and not break through that. Just like if Raditz had never showed up, Goku and Piccolo wouldn't have gotten very strong. Having a *hard limit* as opposed to a soft one in the form of Gohan is more of a Salagir specific thing though, I reckon.

I think it was just originally meant to be Gohan’s final power up. Toriyama wanted to make it different from Super Saiyan forms and returned to basics approach by giving Gohan black hair, but styling it and his shape into Super Saiyan form. Based on what Old Kai said in the manga and anime it was a more energy efficient power up, since he complained SS transformations wasted energy. That tracks with how Goku mentioned even SS1 had those flaws. It is likely all SS forms strain their bodies and drains their energy faster than normal. Gohan’s power up was meant to be opposite. It goes with subverting expectations Toriyama likes when he makes final forms of Freeza and Cell shorter and less intimidating than their previous forms.

It is likely when DB returned after 20 years since GT ended that Toriyama just forgot things. A interview that said someone had to remind him about SS3 when they were making BoG movie. It doesn’t surprise me with why Super treats Mystic form as temporary transformation like the SS forms and seems different from how it originally worked. New DB does this a from time to time. It is like how in the movies SS2 and SS3 stopped being used because they were deemed as unnecessary or forced forms by Toriyama a few years ago which is different from how they were presented as legitimate upgrades of SS forms. Now SSG and SSGSS/SSB are seen as the true successors to SS form and natural forms. Just some things are bond to change or be forgotten since there is just such a large gap from when the author originally finished the story to him continuing it now.

Well they removed most of the strain but Goku said they couldn't sleep in it so there might've been a small amount left. Old Kai meant all of them since the strain seemed to get worse the higher the form. Old Kai presumably unlocked SSJ3 for Gohan since he surpassed it but gave him access to all his power in base so no energy is wasted in any form. In the end it didn't matter since Gohan got absorbed anyway!